Official Christian Thread! - Page 2

I did not create this particular thread but I can assure you that this is for all people.

I think some of the questions by BR for example have been thoughtfully and correctly answered by Camp David.

What is the problem? I don't see the problem.

God allows man to have free will.

Man does do evil and this is a fact. Don't blame God for what man does.

Ask all the questions you want.

Fellows

What does it matter at all if the "Good Samaritan" did exist? Jesus was telling a story and he suggests what it means to be a neighbor by asking just who in his story was being neighborly.

Please by all means read Luke chapter 10 vs 25-37 and you tell me what difference it makes.

How pointless to debate if the "good samaritan" existed when the real matter is learning the point of Jesus's questioning to the one questioning Jesus.

issue number 2 that you raise is the age if the Earth.

I don't claim to know the age of the earth. I once argued that in my view God "could have" created a mature universe when he created it which (this very creation is not as old as it may appear) in such an idea.

Get your mind around that one.

When God for example created Adam was Adam an adult? a baby? 2 cells of life?

Same goes for all of creation. We don't really KNOW. None of us.

Fellows

You say god created everything.

Why does evil not count as part of that everything?

Because that would wreck their idea of a friendly god. The reality according to the bible (if you don't pick and choose what to believe) makes god out to be what society would think of as "an evil person".
But, again, they don't want that demonstrated in THIS thread.

I want you to really wrap your head around these concepts:


Love is not real unless we have the ability to not love...

Please think about this for several days and get back to me.

Now consider the following:



See this link if you wish:

http://www.allaboutgod.com/faq/why-d...reate-evil.htm

Fellows

No it would do no such thing KingOfSomewhereHot. It is exactly because God loves us that he affords us real love.

Fellows

Look, I've seen those justifications many times before and have thought about them. I'm not asking for robots that repeat an "I Love You!" mantra. Yes, a contrast does help make the good times better. However, do we really need the utter depths of evil in this world? Do we really need random evil, both human and natural? Did your god not foresee the immense suffering of plenty of good people? He was really OK with that? No compassion there?

It is not about merely a contrast to help make the good times better as you say above.

It IS all about the simple concept and I do mean simple...

We either have the capicity for REAL LOVE or we don't.

I am sure you can understand this. God afforded us the real deal.

The real deal is very very expensive and we all see the bad in the world as well as the good. I don't discount the bad. I hate the bad.

Now all we can do is represent ourselves and make choices for ourselves.

Go now and LOVE (a real love by the way) your neighbor.

That neighbor might be a hungry child in a foreign land whome you help to support.

It might be your neighbor across the way.

I echo what I take away from Jesus.

Go and be a neighbor

Not a bad neighbor

Not an indifferent neighbor,, but a loving neighbor to all people you come into contact with.

Don't condemn your neighbor. Don't judge them.

Love them (with a real love mind you) with all your heart.

God Bless BR..

For now I must get some sleep. Going to Chrurch in the morning with the family to hear my father in law sing during the service at his Church tomorrow morning (today) actually.

I will catch you later,

Fellows



And btw, food for thought while I am sleeping tonight.

Love is very very very much like God... (God is Love I would submit) but that is another thread..

Hard to prove it exists.. hard to define it.

But you know love when you experience it.

It is hard to explain to others. Frankly however it is real and it is not complicated. It is a matter of the heart.

Everything Jesus taught was concerning the condition or our heart.

There is a reason for all of this BR.

Now.. off to bed I go and I wish you peace and respect.

Fellows

His god chose to anhililate the entire human pollution with a world flood (Noah). His god chose to wipe out an entire city of humans (Sodom and Gomorrah). His god awarded Lot with survival after he offered up his virgin daughters to a gang-rape. (but killed his wife for merely looking over her shoulder.) The bible is full of examples where the people god favored were involved with murder, incest, warmongering, etc. Didn't god himself rape Mary to create Jesus?

I would like to know how Christians are able to wrap their minds around such things and still tell themselves god loves humans. Really... I would.

Actually, as I understand it, the purpose of these new 'religion' threads is to find common ground that transcends the actual beliefs and non-beliefs of the possible participants, to give people a chance to post something interesting that is maybe not so widely known and for someone to describe how and why what they believe enriches their lives.

Basically: to take a completely different approach than we have ever done before in matters of religious discussion.

So far we've done it a bit and it's great!

We just need to train ourselves not to fall back into the old habits - it's a good thing: I'm having to rein myself in about 5 times a day!

All these questions are welcome but In some way, they are questions with no answers. No religious discussion here has ever really changed anyone's mind has it? Has it really ever 'got anywhere' ? I think not.

This is a new experiment to try to 'not get anywhere' and just share things from a different angle.

As to the questions about specific aspects of theology and 'God' - these are great too but imo - and it is only my opinion - they distract from the purpose of the thread so I can;t personally join in or contribute to those here.

But maybe I am wrong - I agree with your first statement about asking questions to help understand why someone is a Christian. But maybe we just need to work to find out the right questions to ask.

Has anyone asked that yet for example? Why not just ask one of the Christians why they are one and how they became one rather than discussing the nature of their beliefs?

If someone does eventually start the Official Atheist thread then my question there won;t be about proof and so on - they'll be like "When did you start thinking about these things?" and "what made you first decide to become an atheist?" or "how do you feel it improves your life on a daily basis?"

I am not a Christian btw and I'm tone-deaf so I don't think I'll be round the campfire...I'd be tied up in a tree like Cacofonix the Bard.

It's a question of scale.

As we speak now you and I consist of billions and billions of atoms.

The distance between one of these atoms and the nearest one - relatively speaking - is greater than the distance from here to the sun.

Moving from the microscopic to the macro - there are perspectives from certain universal vantage points where out solar system, galaxy even, is similarly microscopic. Even smaller.

Your discussion revolves around 'evil' but any serious discussion of evil must take into account the above factors. For evil to be evil it must be evil on a universal scale.

Or put another way. if you kill an ant it is not evil to you. To ants - could they consider such things (and perhaps they do) it would be evil.

So what is 'evil'?

My take is that there are humans and there is God (bear with me for arguments sake).

If God communicates or acts then by definition the act or communication will not remain intact - it will be subject to human interpretation.

Sometimes, perhaps many times, believers may feel that God want them to do something, has told them something and it is just coming from their own ego or desire.

This is not an argument against God. It is an argument against the human condition.

Imo the Bible was written by humans. Humans almost 4000 years ago or more in some cases. Can you really claim to hold their interpretations up to a modern standard - it's unworthy imo.

You might as well find some document from a citizen of the Lower Delta in Egypt at the same time if you could and haul it before a forensic enquiry on the charge it does not square with modern rational knowledge.

It's silly. Why don't you take the Bible for what it is.

Besides, to discard something because someone else has misused it might be the height of folly.


Disingenuous...is a bit of an unworthy comment I think.


I would rephrase this personally as to how humans have this capacity.

If you are right and this is a real problem then if you solved it in the case of the Christians somehow it would still exist in virtually every other human area.

So really, do you want to understand this? Or just understand it in relation to religion?

If it is the former then you might need to broaden your field of research into psychology.

trillions upon trillions of cells /

and every word god has ever said came from a mans mouth.


maybe one day god will speak directly to us .

peace

9

Well, words are man's language. Whales makes sounds. Other animals communicate in other ways.

Maybe God does not speak in our language.

Maybe God's language is very obvious but we are so fixated on words we do not see it.

Or maybe people are bored/power hungry/scared and make shit up.

Yes. Of course they do. Some of those that do it are even religious.

But if you are objective I think you'll find that very, very few 'made shit up'. the vast majority merely misunderstood and got it wrong.

And why? Because they are human.

And you know what - that's exactly what religion is all about: addressing the fact that we are constantly missing the mark because we are human.

And desperately clinging to the notion that they in fact did hit the mark and think everyone else didn't...too afraid to see that we don't even know what the mark is let alone how to hit it...

Yes, some of them do....

But why focus on them? Why not focus on the one's that do hit the mark or at least try?

Let me ask you then:

What, iyo, is the mark?

Is it possible to reach it or is it impossible?

I'm not a literalist with regard to the creation story. However looking at cosmology, our present rules and constants clearly breakdown when the Big Bang is in the midst of... banging into existence. Since time is a function of space, when space is expanding into existence from a singularity, so is time. One does not function without the other.

Go read your relativity.

I think I'm just going to ask questions for a bit. First one for anyone who cares to address it:

If there were no evil in the world, would good cease to have meaning?

is there a way to uprank this comment?
thanks for sharing this, Segovius!

I understand good/evil just fine... I'm trying to understand why some people need to invent a "god" to be able to square things personally. A person can understand love and hate, good and evil, wright and wrong without inventing god. In fact, that very invention, and the human psyche that goes with it seems to have caused as much problem in this world as anything else.


Kum bay yah! (sp?)

Why don't you ask them then? Of course I wouldn't phrase it like "why do you invent..." if you genuinely want an insight but that's up to you.

Unfortunately I cannot comment on your other points for reasons I've already stated - though if I did I would demolish them. You could demolish them yourself - which is better all round - if you think about it deeply.

I would say this though: are you seriously suggesting that that the human psyche responsible for what we are here calling 'evil' (which may not be btw - no-one has yet answered my questions on what evil is, what they think it is or how they would define it and what value 'good' would have if it did not exist) exists only in a religious framework or even predominantly in a religious framework?

It's difficult to believe and easy to refute. All we would need to do is to look at Court and Police records of crimes committed surely? From there we could correlate the religious or other views of the perpetrators.


I say it again: I am not a Christian so this is a wasted reference to me and I also think that we can all be sarcastic - in fact I am better at it than you, I am the all-time heavyweight champion.....but I am refraining...be good if you could too.

Debate is much better no?

So, another question: could you define 'evil' for me? In your opinion does it exist? If so what is it and where does it come from?

I can answer that one. Choosing to act in a negative way upon another individual or group for personal pleasure or gain. Where does it come from? Us. The one's with the big cerebral cortex and the power to reason the difference and to choose to do it anyway.

What some consider "evil" is getting others into heaven.

Ok..I agree completely.

So it follows then that the problem is within us and is a natural human condition then? Would you agree with that?

If you do then it also means, by definition, that it is equally to be found across the spectrum: atheists, believers, agnostics - all in the same boat.

It is not therefore possible to say that religion is the cause of it. It is a human proclivity and as religion is also then the two will coincide.

You might as well take the sum total of past religionists and say "look they all died - 100% of them. And 100% of them were religious therefore religion is the cause of their death" - in fact that is an exact analogy of that reasoning.

We can do better.

The focus is therefore switched from religion being the cause as to whether religion tries to eb an antidote. And it does.

You could argue that it fails - and maybe it does - but it acknowledges the problem and tries, that is a long way from being the 'cause'. I don't think such claims are particularly helpful but worse, they are not even very perceptive.

We can do far, far better - even arguments against religion could be increased ten-fold in lucidity from that.

Let's find some better ones!!!

Thanks for the input so far everyone btw...

No one evil really sees themselves as evil. It's called " Rationalization ".

An old saying : A good rationalization every now and then is better than sex! ".

Of course we could do far better. However I see us as a work in progress ( hopeful ).

I'd like to go into evil some more (mwhahah) - anyone feel free to weigh in with their opinion on this.

Is it not possible that the capacity for 'evil' is a by-product of evolutionary consciousness?

What I mean is, if you look at the Animal Kingdom, the lion or other predator will target the weakest/youngest antelope.

If they could rationalize (in another sense than you used it!) the antelope would label this 'evil'. But is it?

What do you think?

The lion is simply doing what it must to survive. Using the tools evolution has provided. If he/she was self aware enough to reason it out he/she would start a business instead ( to survive ) and be driving to work during the morning rush hour.

The lion needs to follow instinct.We don't. That's not evil it's survival of the fittest.


If we really want to be the top dog on this planet we must learn to live up to the responsibility of the position. We have the big brains to use as a tool ( instead of claws and fangs ) we just need to use them in a mature responsible way. The old : " Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself " is a good place to start.

I think the Christian God, as many Christians interpret him, is evil. He demands that you worship him and if you don't, he tortures you. If you're one of his people you're rewarded, but if you're not you're tortured. How is that different from Saddam or Stalin or Hitler? *

I'd also say that believing God does this, but still choosing to worship him, is evil.

(edit: why does my iPad put random asterisks in my posts? Now that really is evil.)

Ok, but what IS it?

I don't mean examples of it, I mean a definition like evil=selfishness or evil=rebellion against God or whatever you think it is.

Maybe there is no such thing? Maybe it is conditioned by society.

I remember reading once - can't remember where though, maybe you know - a book about an anthropologist's research into head-hunting tribes in Borneo.

Their tradition was that when you wanted to marry a girl and had a rival, the rivals would fight it out and the winner would present the shrunken head of the loser to the father of the bride.

He found that when they were prevented from carrying out this practice - as they were by Missionaries and other civilizers - they felt emotions that were indistinguishable from guilt, remorse and conscience.

In short, when prevented from head-hunting, they felt what WE would feel if we did the head-hunting (some of us).... yet we would call the practice 'evil'.

It's a deeper issue than first appears.

Your very simplistic understanding of the universe does not help your case that there is an anthropomorphic deity who somehow knows everything but doesn't know everything and created everything but didn't create everything (just, you know, pick whichever is convenient for each given argument, duh).

I am very familiar with relativity, thank you very much. I wish you would stop trying to use science to justify something which is the exact opposite of scientific.

I feel like you just very blatantly dodged BRussell's question here. Is it not something that would be almost universally considered evil if one tells his people "love me or I will torture you"?

Why does God have to be anthropomorphic? Would you lend more credence to a God not of such a characteristic? Or would it be the same to you?

Regarding relativity and physics, I have a question:

As quantum mechanics runs counter to the rationality of the classical world, does this mean that all we know - nature if you like - is ultimately irrational? Could it be that our concept of what we think is rational is not actually true? Are we, in fact, the irrational instead?

This is the christian thread, sego. They anthropomorphize god all the time.

Tell me what evil is and I will tell you whether a Deity as you describe him is evil....it's quite simple.

We just need to define the terms so we know what we're talking about.

What is evil?

Fair enough. I'm just saying......it's not necessary for a concept of a Deity.

In Christianity, it is. This is the christian thread, sego.