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Official Christian Thread! - Page 3

post #81 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Tell me what evil is and I will tell you whether a Deity as you describe him is evil....it's quite simple.

We just need to define the terms so we know what we're talking about.

What is evil?

Can I provide an airtight definition of evil? Probably not. The greatest thinkers of all humanity have struggled with that one. But that doesn't mean we can't know some evil when we see it.

LOVE ME OR BE TORTURED FOREVER. Yeah, that's way way up there on the evil continuum.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #82 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why does God have to be anthropomorphic? Would you lend more credence to a God not of such a characteristic? Or would it be the same to you?

Regarding relativity and physics, I have a question:

As quantum mechanics runs counter to the rationality of the classical world, does this mean that all we know - nature if you like - is ultimately irrational? Could it be that our concept of what we think is rational is not actually true? Are we, in fact, the irrational instead?

We have an incomplete knowledge of quantum mechanics. We do not yet have a Unified Theory of Everything. It is absolutely wrong to simply jump to a ridiculous conclusion based on an incomplete data set. Why can't religious people just have some fucking patience and accept not knowing everything?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #83 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Can I provide an airtight definition of evil? Probably not. The greatest thinkers of all humanity have struggled with that one. But that doesn't mean we can't know some evil when we see it.

LOVE ME OR BE TORTURED FOREVER. Yeah, that's way way up there on the evil continuum.

But evil is a loaded term isn't it?

I'm not sure it is useful. I heard a debate the other day where a murderer had hacked a few people up and they were going to send him to the loony-bin.

Some on the phone-in called him 'evil' and should go to prison and some said he was a loon and needed treatment because 'normal people don't do that'.

I kind of agree with this last point: you would have to be mentally ill - ie sick - to do such things. SO there is no evil there....just sickness.

And when you clear out those things, most other 'sins' are not really evil are they? I mean stealing if you are hungry (or if you are not even) or having sex before marriage.

None of these things are really evil are they?

I'm surprised you buy into evil actually BR - isn't it exclusively a religious concept?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #84 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

We have an incomplete knowledge of quantum mechanics. We do not yet have a Unified Theory of Everything. It is absolutely wrong to simply jump to a ridiculous conclusion based on an incomplete data set. Why can't religious people just have some fucking patience and accept not knowing everything?

Well...some do don't they? Surely you can't be labeling them all?

You like Omar Khayyam - he was pretty religious and yet he must have been logical and rational to make his scientific discoveries.

It is possible...just because some people don't do it doesn't mean they can't.

Maybe they just need to be encouraged.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #85 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

But evil is a loaded term isn't it?

I'm not sure it is useful. I heard a debate the other day where a murderer had hacked a few people up and they were going to send him to the loony-bin.

Some on the phone-in called him 'evil' and should go to prison and some said he was a loon and needed treatment because 'normal people don't do that'.

I kind of agree with this last point: you would have to be mentally ill - ie sick - to do such things. SO there is no evil there....just sickness.

And when you clear out those things, most other 'sins' are not really evil are they? I mean stealing if you are hungry (or if you are not even) or having sex before marriage.

None of these things are really evil are they?

I'm surprised you buy into evil actually BR - isn't it exclusively a religious concept?

Jimmac's definition was pretty good and pretty damn secular. Willfully hurting someone for pleasure or gain. I would say that transcends religion.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #86 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Well...some do don't they? Surely you can't be labeling them all?

You like Omar Khayyam - he was pretty religious and yet he must have been logical and rational to make his scientific discoveries.

It is possible...just because some people don't do it doesn't mean they can't.

Maybe they just need to be encouraged.

People are complex. They can be incredibly smart and rational in some areas while continuing to hold stupid and irrational ideas at the same time. Khayyam was a genius. He was also stupid. We're all a mix of smart and stupid, rational and irrational. I just think it's wrong to glorify the stupid and irrational sides of ourselves.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #87 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Ok, but what IS it?

I don't know how to define it. i think BR is right and it's probably just too vague a term to be worth trying to define exactly.

I think you had an interesting point above about evolution and instinct. What personifies evil to most of us is a serial killer who hunts and preys on innocent people for his own pleasure. But my fluffy well-fed house cat loves nothing more than hunting, torturing, and killing innocent birds and mice. She doesn't eat them, she just does it because she feels like doing it. Is that evil?

One thing I do believe is that as a species we have been getting better over time. Civilization - stable governments, laws, social welfare programs like education and health care - reduces evil, whatever it is. ** *
post #88 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I don't know how to define it. i think BR is right and it's probably just too vague a term to be worth trying to define exactly.

True.. I think you're both pretty close, I agree. But the idea of evil may not even be necessary. It could be a hangover from some less-enlightened time maybe.

Quote:
I think you had an interesting point above about evolution and instinct. What personifies evil to most of us is a serial killer who hunts and preys on innocent people for his own pleasure. But my fluffy well-fed house cat loves nothing more than hunting, torturing, and killing innocent birds and mice. She doesn't eat them, she just does it because she feels like doing it. Is that evil?

I guess the religious answer would be 'no' because the cat does not have free-will.

But that raises another can of worms actually because not all religions believe in free-will and I don't believe in it so from some perspectives we are not morally different to the cat.

I remember when Reservoir Dogs first came out- bear with me! hahah - and people were walking out of cinemas in the UK over the ear-cutting scene (odd....don't think they would now....but I digress). I heard an interview with Tarantino justifying it and he said that he had to put it in because 'that's what that character would do if left alone with the cop'.

I agree with this and have observed it....not to the same extreme obviously, but I think we do not have free-will as such....it's just that we are all so different and unique that it seems we do. But in reality we are all carrying out our conditioning.

You'll probably disagree and I may be wrong but it's just one attempt at explanation.

Quote:
One thing I do believe is that as a species we have been getting better over time. Civilization - stable governments, laws, social welfare programs like education and health care - reduces evil, whatever it is. ** *

I agree...we are getting better.

I think though that religion has been a part of this - or, let's say, the teaching of Jesus has. What is 'turn the other cheek' and 'love your neighbour' if not this? They were unknown concepts before...it was all 'eye for an eye'.

Also I believe that religious duties were originally intended as a means of breaking conditioning and gaining free-will (ie 'heaven') through disciplines like fasting and praying but they got misunderstood...that's another story though maybe.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #89 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

His god chose to anhililate the entire human pollution with a world flood (Noah). His god chose to wipe out an entire city of humans (Sodom and Gomorrah).

This is a valid point / concern.

The following is a consideration you might take a look at:

http://www.truthortradition.com/modu...rticle&sid=626

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #90 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

What is evil?

Evil is the absence of good. While we could extend this definition to fill paragraphs of literal meaning, boiled down evil is simply the absence of good. Since this is a thread on Christianity, however, we should concentrate on the goodness; i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ and his promise of everlasting goodness.
post #91 of 444
But that promise comes not without strings attached. I take issue with a religion whose doctrine tells me that rapists and murderers who found jesus in prison (didn't know he was hiding there so frequently, but apparently so) get to have everlasting goodness but people like Gandhi get to be eternally tortured.

Is it really "good" to say "Love me...OR ELSE"?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #92 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But that promise comes not without strings attached. I take issue with a religion whose doctrine tells me that rapists and murderers who found jesus in prison (didn't know he was hiding there so frequently, but apparently so) get to have everlasting goodness but people like Gandhi get to be eternally tortured.

Is it really "good" to say "Love me...OR ELSE"?

Actually, I don't believe it is as "cut and dry" as you (or other Christians) make it out to be.

For instance, Mormons believe that people won't "go to hell" just because they never had a fair chance to learn about Jesus Christ and decide for themselves whether or not they would accept his teachings in this mortal life.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #93 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Actually, I don't believe it is as "cut and dry" as you (or other Christians) make it out to be.

For instance, Mormons believe that people won't "go to hell" just because they never had a fair chance to learn about Jesus Christ and decide for themselves whether or not they would accept his teachings in this mortal life.

But if they do know about the teachings and decide that it's still bullshit (or just don't believe for whatever reason), the LOVE ME OR ELSE still applies.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #94 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But if they do know about the teachings and decide that it's still bullshit (or just don't believe for whatever reason), the LOVE ME OR ELSE still applies.

Gentle reminder: the idea is to find positive things and discuss them not to wait till someone posts something and focus on the negative of it!

Now I am forced to go and search around for positive Christian articles to post.!!!

I'll kick off with two for now:

The Rev. Ann Holmes Redding is practicing two religions she says are compatible at the most basic level, but many religious scholars insist the two are mutually exclusive.

Quote:
Shortly after noon on Fridays, the Rev. Ann Holmes Redding ties on a black headscarf, preparing to pray with her Muslim group on First Hill.

On Sunday mornings, Redding puts on the white collar of an Episcopal priest. She does both, she says, because she's Christian and Muslim.

Redding, who until recently was director of faith formation at St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral, has been a priest for more than 20 years. Now she's ready to tell people that, for the last 15 months, she's also been a Muslim drawn to the faith after an introduction to Islamic prayers left her profoundly moved. Her announcement has provoked surprise and bewilderment in many, raising an obvious question: How can someone be both a Christian and a Muslim?

But it has drawn other reactions too. Friends generally say they support her, while religious scholars are mixed: Some say that, depending on how one interprets the tenets of the two faiths, it is, indeed, possible to be both. Others consider the two faiths mutually exclusive.

Being both Muslim and Christian "I don't know how that works," said Hisham Farajallah, president of the Islamic Center of Washington.

But Redding has been embraced by leaders at the Al-Islam Center of Seattle, the Muslim group she prays with.

"Islam doesn't say if you're a Christian, you're not a Muslim," said programming director Ayesha Anderson. "Islam doesn't lay it out like that."

Redding believes telling her story can help ease religious tensions, and she hopes it can be a step toward her dream of creating an institute to study Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Full Article

Muslim project invites Christians to work towards peace

Quote:
Can Muslims and Christians work together to bring peace to the world? That's the question raised by A Common Word Between Us and You, a project supported by almost 300 Muslim clerics, scholars and intellectuals and more than 450 Islamic organizations.

The project has issued a letter to Christians around the world, inviting them to find common ground so that the two great religions can work towards peace.

"Finding common ground between Muslims and Christians is not simply a matter for polite ecumenical dialogue between selected religious leaders," the letter states. "Christianity and Islam are the largest and second-largest religions in the world and in history... together they make up more than 55 per cent of the world's population, making the relationship between these two religious communities the most important factor in contributing to meaningful peace around the world."

If Muslims and Christians are not at peace, the letter goes on to say, "the world cannot be at peace."

For Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal of Jordan, one of the architects behind the project, the effort is an "extended global handshake of religious goodwill, friendship and fellowship and consequently of inter-religious peace."

The intent, he adds, is "simply to try to make peace between Muslims and Christians globally."

The initiative takes its name from a verse in the Quran, which says: "O People of the Scripture! Come to a common word between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. (Aal 'Imran 3:64)

It goes on to quote the Prophet Muhammad, who said: "None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself."

Full Article
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #95 of 444
Thread Starter 
We should advance - within this thread - the condemnation and persecution of Christians within the liberal universities since it is becoming more frequent and widespread, and more often than not, exclusively against Christians and not other faiths.
post #96 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

We should advance - within this thread - the condemnation and persecution of Christians within the liberal universities since it is becoming more frequent and widespread, and more often than not, exclusively against Christians and not other faiths.

In what way is that a positive and affirming contribution which will enhance common ground?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #97 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

In what way is that a positive and affirming contribution which will enhance common ground?

Highlighting the persecution of Christian beliefs is fit matter for a thread on Christians. I can raise the issue in other threads if you like but it seems germane to this one. Moreover bringing such persecution to an end is both a positive and affirming activity, for Christians and all others.
post #98 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Highlighting the persecution of Christian beliefs is fit matter for a thread on Christians. I can raise the issue in other threads if you like but it seems germane to this one. Moreover bringing such persecution to an end is both a positive and affirming activity, for Christians and all others.

I was rather thinking it would be more positive to hear about GAY Christians who have a strong faith and work for acceptance and tolerance as opposed to highlighting the case of a Christian who seems to perhaps not have as much tolerance and is suspended from public service because he was teaching that being gay is 'not normal'.

This may even be illegal actually. I think it would be in Europe.

As these threads are about tolerance in religion I don;t really see how someone who is intolerant is worthy of promoting.

In fact, I even think it was a massive mistake to bring it up - it's been pretty difficult to keep this thread on the positive track and now you've gone and handed your opponents here the perfect ammunition AND the indisputable iron-clad moral high-ground.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #99 of 444
Fuck, it's too easy, sego. Here, Camp David, have some pity. I won't ream your awful example here. In the spirit of giving, enjoy your pass.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #100 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But that promise comes not without strings attached. I take issue with a religion whose doctrine tells me that rapists and murderers who found jesus in prison (didn't know he was hiding there so frequently, but apparently so) get to have everlasting goodness but people like Gandhi get to be eternally tortured.

Is it really "good" to say "Love me...OR ELSE"?

What is evil?

I thought I had already answered this one pretty adequately. However sometimes the answer to the big questions like : " Define evil " or " Why do we have religion? " are really found in the most simple of places.

I was watching " Forbidden Planet " the other day ( I hear you laughing! ). One of my favorite old films from the 50's ( made when I was 3 years old ) even though the love scenes are cheesy it contains some basic truths.

In a scene towards the end of the movie ( for those of you not familiar ) The Commander ( Leslie Neilsen ) is trying to tell Professor Morbious ( Walter Pigeon ) that the monster chasing them is Morbious's own subconscious ( " Monsters from the ID! " ). One of the best lines in the whole movie is where Morbious says " I'm not a monster! " and the Commander replies " We're all part monsters in our subconscious! So we have laws and Religion! ".

There you go. We ( civilization ) have to have a framework to live within when you take this in to account. It might as well be one that's beneficial to all. Hence the " Do unto others "... idea. Evil is what goes counter to this idea. It doesn't matter if you see it as an indict from God or just man trying to make sense of the chaos. It allows us all to live and function as a society.

We have the brain power to ask this question. That's why when you know you are doing something to someone else ( without their consent ) that you wouldn't like yourself and you choose to do it anyway even if it's a rationalization ( I'm sure Hitler didn't see himself as evil ) it's evil. This applies to other living things that aren't so self aware as well like animals ( you know the difference between killing one for food as they themselves would do and just maliciously hurting one ). There's a whole range of little evils to big evils. But basically evil is still evil. Some people need this spelled out for them so we have Laws and Religion. The alternative is that we would have wiped ourselves out long ago. Like I've said " A work in progress ".

Anyway I hear they are going to make a remake of this film. I hope they expand on it's basic themes which is basically Shakespeare’s " The Tempest ".
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #101 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I was rather thinking it would be more positive to hear about GAY Christians who have a strong faith and work for acceptance and tolerance as opposed to highlighting the case of a Christian who seems to perhaps not have as much tolerance and is suspended from public service because he was teaching that being gay is 'not normal'.

You misunderstood my point; I'm all about tolerance and forgiveness=> as is Christianity within the very soul of God's good grace. And I appreciate your patience while we discuss these instances of tolerance and forgiveness. There needs to be far more of this in the world. Tolerance and forgiveness need to be touchstones of life and certainly they are touchstones of Christianity. Your import and contribution here are key. That is why the Churches within Christianity are way out front here with tolerance and forgiveness; anyone who is a sinner is embraced and given instruction so that sin can be avoided, fostering tolerance and forgiveness in God's name. Even homosexuals can find forgiveness in God's name if the sin is admitted and confession is pursued. The road to God is one of tolerance and forgiveness.
post #102 of 444
Right. God hates fags until they repent their faghood, right? So caring. So loving. So understanding.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #103 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

You misunderstood my point; I'm all about tolerance and forgiveness=> as is Christianity within the very soul of God's good grace. And I appreciate your patience while we discuss these instances of tolerance and forgiveness. There needs to be far more of this in the world. Tolerance and forgiveness need to be touchstones of life and certainly they are touchstones of Christianity. Your import and contribution here are key. That is why the Churches within Christianity are way out front here with tolerance and forgiveness; anyone who is a sinner is embraced and given instruction so that sin can be avoided, fostering tolerance and forgiveness in God's name. Even homosexuals can find forgiveness in God's name if the sin is admitted and confession is pursued. The road to God is one of tolerance and forgiveness.

Quote:
Even homosexuals can find forgiveness in God's name if the sin is admitted and confession is pursued.

Yeah. You'll really win people over to your way of thinking with stuff like this.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #104 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yeah. You'll really win people over to your way of thinking with stuff like this.

Every organization has rules; so too with the Christian religion. Don't like the rules then don't join the organization.
post #105 of 444
Do you keep Kosher? That's a rule in your little book of yours. Sure, it's the Old Testament, but that's where the most commonly cited passage against homosexuality exists as well. So, why are you in this organization if you don't like the rules?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #106 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Do you keep Kosher?

Leviticus 11 lists the dietary restrictions God gave to the nation of Israel while Romans 14 teaches us that not everyone is mature enough in the faith to accept the fact that all foods are clean. While the Hebrew Bible's teachings in Judaism in reference to kosher foods is more rigid than Christian teachings, the principle is the same. The answer to your question is yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

That's a rule in your little book of yours. Sure, it's the Old Testament, but that's where the most commonly cited passage against homosexuality exists as well. So, why are you in this organization if you don't like the rules?

I am aware of it. I am also aware of the abomination of homosexuality. To deny it is to deny a fundamental Christian tenet of the faith. The rules of Christianity here are clear and those that embrace the faith embrace its rules. To attempt to change the rules is anathema to the faith.
post #107 of 444
Abomination is a mistranslation. Look it up. Persecuting people over a mistranslation is an abomination. Well, a double one...because persecuting people in general is an abomination anyway.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #108 of 444
So...it appears that Camp David is speechless regarding the mistranslation of the word abomination. He should be rejoicing that now he no longer has a reason to hate a group of people. Unfortunately, the more likely conclusion is that he's upset that now he no longer has a reason to hate a group of people.

It would help if Camp David would actually clear up this matter for us so we know which one it is.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #109 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So...it appears that Camp David is speechless regarding the mistranslation of the word abomination.

a·bom·i·na·tion (-bm-nshn) n.
1. Abhorrence; disgust.
2. A cause of abhorrence or disgust.


What is your rant now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

He should be rejoicing that now he no longer has a reason to hate a group of people.

I don't hate anyone; sin, however, I try to avoid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Unfortunately, the more likely conclusion is that he's upset that now he no longer has a reason to hate a group of people.

See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It would help if Camp David would actually clear up this matter for us so we know which one it is.

Based on track record herein, you need a Religion 101 refresher... suggest you do so.
post #110 of 444
The English word abomination is not the problem. The Hebrew it is taken from is. You do know that the bible wasn't written in English first, right?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #111 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The English word abomination is not the problem. The Hebrew it is taken from is. You do know that the bible wasn't written in English first, right?

Perhaps if you footnoted your rant with the words "irrelevant minutiae" it would be better received.
post #112 of 444
How is that irrelevant? The word you are using was not the original word of god. It was an abusive mistranslation by humans with agendas. The translators fucked up (intentionally or otherwise) and as a result a whole group of people get persecuted by people like you to this day. Wonderful. Totally irrelevant.

You really, really suck at making Christians and Christianity look positive at all.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #113 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

How is that irrelevant? The word you are using was not the original word of god.

I never said it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It was an abusive mistranslation by humans with agendas.

No; it is an adjective applied to aptly describe a particular sin.
post #114 of 444
If you think gay couples shouldn't have the same rights as same sex couples then you completely missed the point of what Jesus taught.
post #115 of 444
In keeping with my recent conversion to positivity and trying to not express the negative, I have been avoiding this thread like the plague. Probably to everyone's delight - including mine!

Feels amazing...instead of hanging out here and being lame I've been doing things - reading and stuff! Right now I am reading Jonathan Coe's masterly biography of B S Johnson - a genius poet (imo) and general all-round tragic figure. I love Johnson, not sure why, have never been able to work it out and there is every reason not to...anyway, I read a nice quote and I'll share it with you in case someone else is as much of an oddball as me and can dig it:

Quote:
...there was no point in writing novels just because in the 1960s people did (and still do in the 2000s); if you were going to do it properly, you had to do it with real faith. And faith in the novel has this, at least, in common with faith in God: in both cases you can always tell the genuine article because it will always be riddled with doubt. Which means it's often the heretic who is closer to God than the regular unquestioning churchgoer......


Seems to me to be a point worthy of deep contemplation and one that sums up the whole progress of this thread which in fact mirrors contemporary 'debate' around religion.

For we live in an age where 'doubt' cannot be tolerated....an age of 'fundamentalism' in fact. People like to call this phenomena a 'return to the medieval' but the medieval had doubt. Had a place for doubt. Understood doubt. And with it humility.

It is not true...there is nothing medieval about it. It is purely 21st century. Both atheists and the believers referred to in the quote above want cold, hard 'facts' ...and if they don't get it - which neither can - they will adapt a stance where any form of doubt or uncertainty is excluded instead as a fall-back position.

Neither are heretics and - if the quote is accurate - that would be why in this view neither can really know 'God'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #116 of 444
Wouldn't it be positive, Sego, if it turned out that certain negative aspects of Christianity (the bigotry against homosexuals) actually comes from a completely bogus translation of the Hebrew to Greek to English? I don't understand why Camp David is so dismissive of this. Wouldn't it be a good thing to get to stop hating a group of people?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #117 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Wouldn't it be positive, Sego, if it turned out that certain negative aspects of Christianity (the bigotry against homosexuals) actually comes from a completely bogus translation of the Hebrew to Greek to English? I don't understand why Camp David is so dismissive of this. Wouldn't it be a good thing to get to stop hating a group of people?

Imo yes. It is well known that many books and passages of the Bible are mistranslated, erroneous, contradictory and well... wrong.

From one perspective - ours - it is positive to know this and study it as it adds to the store of human knowledge and truth.

But from another pov, some people aren't ready to hear it or cannot accept it for some other reason so telling them it would be negative as it would force them to react badly.

But I think when we are dealing with things like homophobia, prejudice and racism then we are out of the realm of religion. Religion is spirituality and also is a method or self-improvement. Those things cannot be placed in that category so we are talking of something else....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #118 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Wouldn't it be positive, Sego, if it turned out that certain negative aspects of Christianity (the bigotry against homosexuals) actually comes from a completely bogus translation of the Hebrew to Greek to English?

There is nothing negative about an organization enforcing its rules agains sin. Nor is there bigotry toward wanting said organization free from the perversion of social progressives. Here's an amazing fact: nobody forces anyone to join the Christian religion; matter of fact, freedom has quite a nice home within the Christian faith. Don't like the rules within the Christian organization? Don't join.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I don't understand why Camp David is so dismissive of this. Wouldn't it be a good thing to get to stop hating a group of people?

Christians express love, following the footsteps of Jesus Christ. There are, however, rules within Christianity. Once again, don't like the rules? Don't join.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If you think gay couples shouldn't have the same rights as same sex couples then you completely missed the point of what Jesus taught.

The words of Jesus Christ himself, "They are no longer two, but one flesh" (Matthew 19:6a), with the reference to marriage - a father and a mother and procreation, deny the idea of a homosexual "couple" that you reference. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman and can be reserved for only that.
post #119 of 444
Camp David, don't you understand that your rules you keep quoting actually were PERVERSIONS OF THE ORIGINAL WORD?

Your bigotry isn't about enforcing rules. Those rules aren't even correctly interpreted. That's the point.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #120 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Camp David, don't you understand that your rules you keep quoting actually were PERVERSIONS OF THE ORIGINAL WORD?

So I'm sure you'll explain that clearly rather than your drive-by summary bombast! Define your allegation to "ORIGINAL WORD" contrasted with the current faith?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Your bigotry isn't about enforcing rules. Those rules aren't even correctly interpreted. That's the point.

Most established religions today prohibit sodomy and homosexuality. Are they all bigots? Where is your rant against bigotry in the Muslim/Islam thread? You do realize what they do to homosexuals in Islam? What are you basing "interpreted" on?
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