Official Christian Thread! - Page 3

Can I provide an airtight definition of evil? Probably not. The greatest thinkers of all humanity have struggled with that one. But that doesn't mean we can't know some evil when we see it.

LOVE ME OR BE TORTURED FOREVER. Yeah, that's way way up there on the evil continuum.

We have an incomplete knowledge of quantum mechanics. We do not yet have a Unified Theory of Everything. It is absolutely wrong to simply jump to a ridiculous conclusion based on an incomplete data set. Why can't religious people just have some fucking patience and accept not knowing everything?

But evil is a loaded term isn't it?

I'm not sure it is useful. I heard a debate the other day where a murderer had hacked a few people up and they were going to send him to the loony-bin.

Some on the phone-in called him 'evil' and should go to prison and some said he was a loon and needed treatment because 'normal people don't do that'.

I kind of agree with this last point: you would have to be mentally ill - ie sick - to do such things. SO there is no evil there....just sickness.

And when you clear out those things, most other 'sins' are not really evil are they? I mean stealing if you are hungry (or if you are not even) or having sex before marriage.

None of these things are really evil are they?

I'm surprised you buy into evil actually BR - isn't it exclusively a religious concept?

Well...some do don't they? Surely you can't be labeling them all?

You like Omar Khayyam - he was pretty religious and yet he must have been logical and rational to make his scientific discoveries.

It is possible...just because some people don't do it doesn't mean they can't.

Maybe they just need to be encouraged.

Jimmac's definition was pretty good and pretty damn secular. Willfully hurting someone for pleasure or gain. I would say that transcends religion.

People are complex. They can be incredibly smart and rational in some areas while continuing to hold stupid and irrational ideas at the same time. Khayyam was a genius. He was also stupid. We're all a mix of smart and stupid, rational and irrational. I just think it's wrong to glorify the stupid and irrational sides of ourselves.

I don't know how to define it. i think BR is right and it's probably just too vague a term to be worth trying to define exactly.

I think you had an interesting point above about evolution and instinct. What personifies evil to most of us is a serial killer who hunts and preys on innocent people for his own pleasure. But my fluffy well-fed house cat loves nothing more than hunting, torturing, and killing innocent birds and mice. She doesn't eat them, she just does it because she feels like doing it. Is that evil?

One thing I do believe is that as a species we have been getting better over time. Civilization - stable governments, laws, social welfare programs like education and health care - reduces evil, whatever it is. ** *

True.. I think you're both pretty close, I agree. But the idea of evil may not even be necessary. It could be a hangover from some less-enlightened time maybe.


I guess the religious answer would be 'no' because the cat does not have free-will.

But that raises another can of worms actually because not all religions believe in free-will and I don't believe in it so from some perspectives we are not morally different to the cat.

I remember when Reservoir Dogs first came out- bear with me! hahah - and people were walking out of cinemas in the UK over the ear-cutting scene (odd....don't think they would now....but I digress). I heard an interview with Tarantino justifying it and he said that he had to put it in because 'that's what that character would do if left alone with the cop'.

I agree with this and have observed it....not to the same extreme obviously, but I think we do not have free-will as such....it's just that we are all so different and unique that it seems we do. But in reality we are all carrying out our conditioning.

You'll probably disagree and I may be wrong but it's just one attempt at explanation.


I agree...we are getting better.

I think though that religion has been a part of this - or, let's say, the teaching of Jesus has. What is 'turn the other cheek' and 'love your neighbour' if not this? They were unknown concepts before...it was all 'eye for an eye'.

Also I believe that religious duties were originally intended as a means of breaking conditioning and gaining free-will (ie 'heaven') through disciplines like fasting and praying but they got misunderstood...that's another story though maybe.

This is a valid point / concern.

The following is a consideration you might take a look at:

http://www.truthortradition.com/modu...rticle&sid=626

Fellowship

But that promise comes not without strings attached. I take issue with a religion whose doctrine tells me that rapists and murderers who found jesus in prison (didn't know he was hiding there so frequently, but apparently so) get to have everlasting goodness but people like Gandhi get to be eternally tortured.

Is it really "good" to say "Love me...OR ELSE"?

Actually, I don't believe it is as "cut and dry" as you (or other Christians) make it out to be.

For instance, Mormons believe that people won't "go to hell" just because they never had a fair chance to learn about Jesus Christ and decide for themselves whether or not they would accept his teachings in this mortal life.

But if they do know about the teachings and decide that it's still bullshit (or just don't believe for whatever reason), the LOVE ME OR ELSE still applies.

Gentle reminder: the idea is to find positive things and discuss them not to wait till someone posts something and focus on the negative of it!

Now I am forced to go and search around for positive Christian articles to post.!!!

I'll kick off with two for now:

The Rev. Ann Holmes Redding is practicing two religions she says are compatible at the most basic level, but many religious scholars insist the two are mutually exclusive.


Full Article

Muslim project invites Christians to work towards peace


Full Article

In what way is that a positive and affirming contribution which will enhance common ground?

I was rather thinking it would be more positive to hear about GAY Christians who have a strong faith and work for acceptance and tolerance as opposed to highlighting the case of a Christian who seems to perhaps not have as much tolerance and is suspended from public service because he was teaching that being gay is 'not normal'.

This may even be illegal actually. I think it would be in Europe.

As these threads are about tolerance in religion I don;t really see how someone who is intolerant is worthy of promoting.

In fact, I even think it was a massive mistake to bring it up - it's been pretty difficult to keep this thread on the positive track and now you've gone and handed your opponents here the perfect ammunition AND the indisputable iron-clad moral high-ground.

Fuck, it's too easy, sego. Here, Camp David, have some pity. I won't ream your awful example here. In the spirit of giving, enjoy your pass.

What is evil?

I thought I had already answered this one pretty adequately. However sometimes the answer to the big questions like : " Define evil " or " Why do we have religion? " are really found in the most simple of places.

I was watching " Forbidden Planet " the other day ( I hear you laughing! ). One of my favorite old films from the 50's ( made when I was 3 years old ) even though the love scenes are cheesy it contains some basic truths.

In a scene towards the end of the movie ( for those of you not familiar ) The Commander ( Leslie Neilsen ) is trying to tell Professor Morbious ( Walter Pigeon ) that the monster chasing them is Morbious's own subconscious ( " Monsters from the ID! " ). One of the best lines in the whole movie is where Morbious says " I'm not a monster! " and the Commander replies " We're all part monsters in our subconscious! So we have laws and Religion! ".

There you go. We ( civilization ) have to have a framework to live within when you take this in to account. It might as well be one that's beneficial to all. Hence the " Do unto others "... idea. Evil is what goes counter to this idea. It doesn't matter if you see it as an indict from God or just man trying to make sense of the chaos. It allows us all to live and function as a society.

We have the brain power to ask this question. That's why when you know you are doing something to someone else ( without their consent ) that you wouldn't like yourself and you choose to do it anyway even if it's a rationalization ( I'm sure Hitler didn't see himself as evil ) it's evil. This applies to other living things that aren't so self aware as well like animals ( you know the difference between killing one for food as they themselves would do and just maliciously hurting one ). There's a whole range of little evils to big evils. But basically evil is still evil. Some people need this spelled out for them so we have Laws and Religion. The alternative is that we would have wiped ourselves out long ago. Like I've said " A work in progress ".

Anyway I hear they are going to make a remake of this film. I hope they expand on it's basic themes which is basically Shakespeare’s " The Tempest ".

Right. God hates fags until they repent their faghood, right? So caring. So loving. So understanding.

Yeah. You'll really win people over to your way of thinking with stuff like this.

Do you keep Kosher? That's a rule in your little book of yours. Sure, it's the Old Testament, but that's where the most commonly cited passage against homosexuality exists as well. So, why are you in this organization if you don't like the rules?

Abomination is a mistranslation. Look it up. Persecuting people over a mistranslation is an abomination. Well, a double one...because persecuting people in general is an abomination anyway.

So...it appears that Camp David is speechless regarding the mistranslation of the word abomination. He should be rejoicing that now he no longer has a reason to hate a group of people. Unfortunately, the more likely conclusion is that he's upset that now he no longer has a reason to hate a group of people.

It would help if Camp David would actually clear up this matter for us so we know which one it is.

The English word abomination is not the problem. The Hebrew it is taken from is. You do know that the bible wasn't written in English first, right?

How is that irrelevant? The word you are using was not the original word of god. It was an abusive mistranslation by humans with agendas. The translators fucked up (intentionally or otherwise) and as a result a whole group of people get persecuted by people like you to this day. Wonderful. Totally irrelevant.

You really, really suck at making Christians and Christianity look positive at all.

If you think gay couples shouldn't have the same rights as same sex couples then you completely missed the point of what Jesus taught.

In keeping with my recent conversion to positivity and trying to not express the negative, I have been avoiding this thread like the plague. Probably to everyone's delight - including mine!

Feels amazing...instead of hanging out here and being lame I've been doing things - reading and stuff! Right now I am reading Jonathan Coe's masterly biography of B S Johnson - a genius poet (imo) and general all-round tragic figure. I love Johnson, not sure why, have never been able to work it out and there is every reason not to...anyway, I read a nice quote and I'll share it with you in case someone else is as much of an oddball as me and can dig it:



Seems to me to be a point worthy of deep contemplation and one that sums up the whole progress of this thread which in fact mirrors contemporary 'debate' around religion.

For we live in an age where 'doubt' cannot be tolerated....an age of 'fundamentalism' in fact. People like to call this phenomena a 'return to the medieval' but the medieval had doubt. Had a place for doubt. Understood doubt. And with it humility.

It is not true...there is nothing medieval about it. It is purely 21st century. Both atheists and the believers referred to in the quote above want cold, hard 'facts' ...and if they don't get it - which neither can - they will adapt a stance where any form of doubt or uncertainty is excluded instead as a fall-back position.

Neither are heretics and - if the quote is accurate - that would be why in this view neither can really know 'God'.

Wouldn't it be positive, Sego, if it turned out that certain negative aspects of Christianity (the bigotry against homosexuals) actually comes from a completely bogus translation of the Hebrew to Greek to English? I don't understand why Camp David is so dismissive of this. Wouldn't it be a good thing to get to stop hating a group of people?

Imo yes. It is well known that many books and passages of the Bible are mistranslated, erroneous, contradictory and well... wrong.

From one perspective - ours - it is positive to know this and study it as it adds to the store of human knowledge and truth.

But from another pov, some people aren't ready to hear it or cannot accept it for some other reason so telling them it would be negative as it would force them to react badly.

But I think when we are dealing with things like homophobia, prejudice and racism then we are out of the realm of religion. Religion is spirituality and also is a method or self-improvement. Those things cannot be placed in that category so we are talking of something else....

Camp David, don't you understand that your rules you keep quoting actually were PERVERSIONS OF THE ORIGINAL WORD?

Your bigotry isn't about enforcing rules. Those rules aren't even correctly interpreted. That's the point.