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Oklahoma City Bombing: A New Perspective

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 
I know this will be a topic that will have some pointing and saying oh, another crackpot conspiracy theorist at work. But, I ask you to indulge my theory here as I am basing 90% on facts. Please submit contrasting points of veiw, but let's be mature please.
My theory of the explosion: The Ryder truck was filled with ammonium nitrate, deisel fuel and oxygen canisters for accelerant. Impossible. Reason: It would take approximately 15 tractor trailers of this material to cause the severe structural damage that occured. Ammonium nitrate (cow manure and deisel fuel with a triggered timing device) does not have a very efficient burn rate to give the concussion necessary to cause severe damage.
Point 2. The detonation of any explosive in a contained vessel will by nature of physics radiate it's concusion in a hemispherical path. Nearby buildings across the street only suffered minor damage and broken glass. The face of the building was constructed using the strucural reinforced concrete and rebar to give the building addequate protection against natural disasters. This type of bomb would have done nothing more than shatter the windows on the face of the building due to it's high structural integrity. The FBI and ATF both came to the conclusion that an ammonium nitrate bomb weighing in at 4,800lbs was used
Mcveigh and Nichols only were involved. This is the 10% I can never prove but here goes.
Mcveigh, being ex-military, was not very proficient in bombs or bomb making, hence my above theory on the device used. This type of terrorist operation would entail much planning, travel and inside inspection of the building itself. This requires money and access to federal property. I beleive there were more players involved that just these two characters. Mcveigh's involvement with the Michigan Malitia was a grand detail to help convict him in the mind of the press and public. Nichols was nothing more than a gopher for materials. Now some will say that Mcveigh confessed to the whole crime, yes he did, but what if he kept silent about the involvement of others for the safety of his family? Also the press pinted out this occured on the anniversary date of the raid on the Branch Dividions in Waco. mcveigh was also vocal about his disapproval with the governments handling of this case.
Chat away and let's see what's out there.
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post #2 of 44
About the building: I have less than zero technical knowledge about this stuff, but I'm reminded of the fact that they also said the WTC would never fall. I think there are some structural engineers fudging their work in order to make it seem like these buildings are stronger than they really are.

Another thing: Given your reasoning in the other thread about guns, why wasn't it McVeigh's legal right under the Constitution to blow up the building? If you think the gov't is oppressive, you have the right to kill them, correct?
post #3 of 44
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>About the building: I have less than zero technical knowledge about this stuff, but I'm reminded of the fact that they also said the WTC would never fall. I think there are some structural engineers fudging their work in order to make it seem like these buildings are stronger than they really are.

Another thing: Given your reasoning in the other thread about guns, why wasn't it McVeigh's legal right under the Constitution to blow up the building? If you think the gov't is oppressive, you have the right to kill them, correct?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok I can see this is going to be a fun one with you BRussell

No Mcveigh had every right to his feelings about the ATF and FBI (his particular dislikes) but killing no way. My veiws on guns and gun ownership as you say are in no way reflective of this incident. As you are suggesting, there is a great difference between an amendment stating our rights and someone who commits acts of terrorism. How do you compare my veiw of the gun topic to Mcveigh killing people? My reasoning in the other thread has never stated anything about killing anyone so what is up with this remark? And further more my gun ownership veiw in no way implicates an acceptance to kill "oppressive govn't people". Please feel free to point out this post and I will correct it post haste. As far as your lack of knowledge on the beginning of my topic, you failed to see the questions raised pertaining to the explosion itself. According to what the ATF and the FBI stated as the device used, this just can't be possible, for the reasons I outlined.
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
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post #4 of 44
Actually some very interesting points that I am suprised I have not heard before. (Must not travel in those circles.) How far away was the Oklahoma city building from the truck and how far away was the building across the street? Could this be the diffrence? Distance? I see what you are getting at. Was this a directed explosion, which would require someting a bit more sophisticated than manure and air? Or was it something closer to a truckload of C4 directionally molded. (I am talking from a lack of experience in explosives, but I understand that you can setup C4 as a directional charge, as you can with many other explosives.)

Dunno, makes an interesting theory. Maybe the militas were not responsible alone? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #5 of 44
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>Actually some very interesting points that I am suprised I have not heard before. (Must not travel in those circles.) How far away was the Oklahoma city building from the truck and how far away was the building across the street? Could this be the diffrence? Distance? I see what you are getting at. Was this a directed explosion, which would require someting a bit more sophisticated than manure and air? Or was it something closer to a truckload of C4 directionally molded. (I am talking from a lack of experience in explosives, but I understand that you can setup C4 as a directional charge, as you can with many other explosives.)

Dunno, makes an interesting theory. Maybe the militas were not responsible alone? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Noahj,
according to the dimensional drawings of the bomb sight released by the FBI the Ryder van was 60ft from the building face. The other closest building was app. 400 ft away across the road from the face of the building. This type of device for a bomb is very crude but will work in the right situation. You are very close on the c4 issue though, except you will still have a hemispherical blast path. Only having a device planted on the surface to be destroyed or a device propeled toward a target that will detonante just before or on direct contact with a surface would do this. The theory being cast about is that line charges were planted in the areas of the support columns inside the building, thus leading to more than just the two as suspects. Most of the public could not get past the pictures of the children who were killed to see that there was more to this story than was being told.

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
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post #6 of 44
i'd like a link to that FBI doc. please.


i was there, 15 minutes afterwards, camera in hand leapfrogging piles of glass to get to ground zero... mcveigh's ryder was parked at the curb directly in front of the Murrah bldg. barely ten feet away from the front facade of the bldg. right in front of the daycare. mcveigh used refined amonium nitrate and racing fuel, a far cry from cow turds and diesel. his ignition system was crude, sure... but hot and if you know anything homemade HE... you know you cannot accurately predict burn rates and explosive force of these things. one might go off with the force of a firecracker... the next built similarly could level the hardest reenforced concrete structure. the buildings nearest the blast were ruinated... the apt. bldg you speak of, the one that lost all the glass? is indeed 400 ft. away. most of the bldg.s downtown lost glass.

thanks in advance for the link...

cuss

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: little cuss ]</p>
post #7 of 44
[quote]Originally posted by little cuss:
<strong>i'd like a link to that FBI doc. please.


i was there, 15 minutes afterwards, camera in hand leapfrogging piles of glass to get to ground zero... mcveigh's ryder was parked at the curb directly in front of the Murrah bldg. barely ten feet away from the front facade of the bldg. right in front of the daycare. mcveigh used refined amonium nitrate and racing fuel, a far cry from cow turds and diesel. his ignition system was crude, sure... but hot and if you know anything homemade HE... you know you cannot accurately predict burn rates and explosive force of these things. one might go off with the force of a firecracker... the next built the similarly could level the hardest reenforced concrete structure. the buildings nearest the blast were ruinated... the apt. bldg you speak of, the one that lost all the glass? is indeed 400 ft. away. most of the bldg.s downtown lost glass.

thanks in advance for the link...

cuss</strong><hr></blockquote>

An eyewitness account. better than a document in a lot of ways. However I would also like to see tha document. Cuss, you got any pictures you can share from the scene that shows the truck and the distance from the building. After all, you were there with camera in hand...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #8 of 44
<a href="http://www.brasscheck.com/OKBOMB/murrah.html" target="_blank">http://www.brasscheck.com/OKBOMB/murrah.html</a>

Some more on this.

<a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/images/20010219-b.html" target="_blank">http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/images/20010219-b.html</a>

And a picture. Looks pretty close...

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #9 of 44
Hey.

I've seen similar ideas. If you do some digging, there was an Air Force general (Retired Air Force General Benton K. Partin)who wasn't buying the story either. Supposedly he built a replica of the front of the building, filled a Ryder truck with the same ingredients and let fly. Nothing like the damage was done. Also, McVeigh did a test run of the home made explosiveas and got nothing.

It's kinda like the JFK thang, rife with hidden info, weird coincidences and a lotta questions.

splode
post #10 of 44
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
About the building: I have less than zero technical knowledge about this stuff, but I'm reminded of the fact that they also said the WTC would never fall.<hr></blockquote>

I'd like to see that quote. I can't think of someone saying, unequivocably, that WTC would never fall. It was designed to withstand the impact of a smaller plane (a plane standard in 1973, not 2001) and to withstand hurricane-force winds (which would have caused much more lateral loading energy than that of any plane impact). Now, in fact, each tower DID withstand the impact of a (much larger) plane, which also impacted at a much greater speed (hence, still more energy). In summation, much more energy was successfully absorbed by the Towers than was ever envisioned by any worst-case scenario.

The buildings came down because of catestropic failures due to the high heat of jet fuel burning, which robbed various supporting steel members of their stiffness. As critical steel pieces turned to jello, they buckled or sheared, loosening the floor plate onto the one below. The (potential energy into kinetic) energy of the whole top twenty or thirty floors pancaking on floors below was of a magnitude that nothing I can imagine could withstand (hence why, in part, more than 1000 bodies were vaporized, with no trace of them to be found).

This is, as I understand, the current wisdom on why the buildings came down, though important details are being strenuously debated.

[quote]I think there are some structural engineers fudging their work in order to make it seem like these buildings are stronger than they really are.<hr></blockquote>

Ugh. I can not emphasize too strongly how strenuously I doubt this. Sure there have been dishonest engineers, but engineers as a whole are trained to build safety into each calculation. It's too easy for calcuations to be checked (they are in Building Code conferences), and erroneous assumptions don't get far. Furthermore, the various Building Codes are conservative and therefore most buildings are for the most part "over-engineered."

For example, steel being progressively overloaded dramatically deforms before it finally fails, but this deforation happens long before the actual failure. The steel becomes perversely stronger as it deforms, up to a dramatic breaking point. An engineer could point out that even as the steel is deforming, it is still structurally sound, and he'd be right. However, they do not, because seeing steel deform would freak you (and me) out (as well as damage finishes around the deforming steel, and so on).

I once complained to an engineer who was sticking me with huge steel beams, and therefore making my mechanical connections and overhead ceiling heights a nightmare, by asserting "This stuff is over-engineered by a factor of 1.7 or 2 anyway, right?" He took safety so seriously he didn't speak to me for a week.

Seems to me shifty structural engineers don't end up keeping a job for very long (because of building failures or costly delays because of run-ins with Code guys), so they have no incentive to be anything other than extremely conservative with their calcs.

FWIW, Timo
post #11 of 44
OK.
:o
post #12 of 44
sure i do noahj... lots of pix, but no scanner. but then again my photowork is silver-based and is more about archivability than webthings... plus, i don't really like the idea of putting them on a photoserver. call me paranoid too, but not conspiracy-prone. lots of pix available to you if you search. look closely too... you'll see that neither of the four major support columns on the corners were cut...their integrity was compromised but it still took lots of shape charges to bring the rest of the building down during demo. the truck bomb wasn't that big, but it did pack enough force to dig a hole in the central front base of the structure... causing the floors above to pancake and come down (gravity packed the most punch, just like WTC). so the pix look alot worse than the bomb's actual effect.

let's not lose our common sense here...

cuss

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: little cuss ]</p>
post #13 of 44
Thread Starter 
Sorry for my being so late to return to my own thread, but work came first. Anyway, my initial information that I posted is quite old, I found the sight in 1996 it is still active but the links to the Oklahoma paper that showed the original FBI sketch and some photos is no longer on their server. the sight was under <a href="http://www.nando.net," target="_blank">www.nando.net,</a> I believe this was a supplement or sister paper to the oK city paper. Noahj found a great link he posted which does indeed refute the bomb theory presented by the ATF investigation. If anyone is interested there is a book titled The Oklahoma City Bombing and The Politics of Terror by David Hoffman with a forward chapter by OK State Representative Charles Key, who also staed he was not buying into the bomb composition theory. For those interested in conspiracy info <a href="http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt.htm" target="_blank">www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt.htm</a> has info on this book with pages online. I wish to say that my intent on this thread is not one of paranoia, but one to seek alternate and more truthful answers than what was presented by the government. Several reputable individuals in the above book have gone out on a limb to refute and prove the evidence that was presented at the initial hearings was inacurate and in some cases down right improbable. Please decide for yourself what if anything you may learn is different from what you have heard in the past. Only by opening up our mind to further possibilities can we seek to find the real truth in any given travesty.

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
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post #14 of 44
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong><a href="http://www.brasscheck.com/OKBOMB/murrah.html" target="_blank">http://www.brasscheck.com/OKBOMB/murrah.html</a>

Some more on this.

<a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/images/20010219-b.html" target="_blank">http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/images/20010219-b.html</a>

And a picture. Looks pretty close...

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not the drawing I saw noahj, but a great posting job you did with this one. Unfortunately my link in my post that showed the original FBI drawing in the OKC newspaper (I think it was this paper) is no longer active. see my post for another link to a great book on the topic. Thanks again for this vital link.
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
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post #15 of 44
robert...

i appreciate your kindness and cool tones. i'm a copy-editor at same-said newspaper(The Daily Oklahoman, circ 350k). i worked not only the bombing but the f5 tornado in may of '99. excuse my sloppy style on these forums but uh, i do this for a living so ... yeah.

speaking only as a journalist and first-hand witness(not to mention amateur bomb builder of some successes, toot toot, goes my own horn) i can tell you that our men on the job, Clay and Bozkiewicz, have delved deeply into these theories and presented them to some fine professors down the road at OU and elsewhere and found little real evidence to support them. so little in fact that we rarely mentioned their exsistence in the paper without tons of disclaimers and won't publish any such flimsy crap nowadays(been there done that, with that particular book). Look how many books were written on the JFK assassination? how many of those, do you suppose, are accurate? any dumbass can write a book, go to yer local Borders for proof. Note it's quack publishing house and their other titles for reference. these books sell good at gun shows and nowhere else... fer a reason.

so to you i say, stand back for a sec... look at that 'schematic'... it's about the most unscientific drawing i've ever seen. notice also the unattributed and spectre-like 'scientists' who've supposedly signed off on these theories. they are ex-military men, and they, sadly, can contain the most paranoid people among our population(see also Mcveigh). to claim a 1k lb. ANFO bomb barely musses yer hair is retarded. i myself have built black-powder pipe bombs(single 1" cold-rolled with caps), and, with the proper hot ignition source, it easily severed 3 ft of re-barred concrete and it's concussion knocked me to the ground and pummeled the wind out of me like a punch to the gut.

that photo isn't bolstering any conspiracy either ... and to be able to say that certain structural supports were cut rather than destroyed by the collapse of a "lowest-bidder-built" government building is a bit silly and poorly considered.

let's keep it cool,

cuss

p.s. i'd love it if you'd present something a little more substantive. i'm no expert on explosives... so please, have at it, and if you don't believe me, send that book to a professor to read...i'm sure any scientist of merit would laugh at it's inconsistencies. some already have ... on the old AI, some shockwave studies were presented, purporting secondary explosions. i'd hate to have to refute them again, so please... stick to newer theories and thanks again.

p.p.s. please to consider that dumbass professor of anthro in the PACNW that leads the hunt for bigfoot too. he was quite convinced he could extrapolate the size of the 'creature' in the Patterson-Gimlin film... and did so. then, some fellers from RIT/MIT got ahold of it.... heeee, wasn't pretty. so robt, the truth is out there and suffice it to say that you won't take my word for it... this is the last lengthy post without chuckles you'll get from me, okay? i've found what i needed know about it, now it's your turn i guess. why, little old me, once butted heads with a professor of entomology at the University of Nebraska because he believed in Rods... heheee, the stupid bastard. it took some work, and help from a buddy contracting at Sandia, but he eventually changed his mind. there's no shortage of idiotic scientists out yonder robt and they'll sign off on anything, in most cases, just to be the first, so be wary.

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: little cuss ]</p>
post #16 of 44
The reinforced concrete can be pulverized much more easily than you think, especially considering the quality of concrete construction in the last thirty years. Let's assume it had a good soda/lime mix for this purpose and the weather was kind to the building. Remember also that in the frame structure of the building built out of a "monolithic" material such as concrete, when the bottom floor goes, so do the floors above, taking even more material with them in a snowball effect. It's one big moment frame where the entire building flexes synchronously. So when one part of the building fails, it causes a chain reaction much more so than a braced frame type. The benefit of building with moment frames it that they "bend" a lot more before breaking, but the point of failure is that much more catastrophic. I don't know if temperature of the blast would have played a role also. I assume not. But remember that when the point of failure is reached on a structure, a whole new set of rules and consequences take effect. A building in failure will not act like a building intact.

I thought the truck was fare closer to the Murrah building than any other in the area?
post #17 of 44
it was BR, it sat on the nearest curb with only the distance of yer average downtown sidewalk between it and the front of the building. not much more than 10 feet i'd say. all of the investigative papers of merit i've seen bore the same conclusions that you have made. timmy's bomb scooped out a small portion of the building, structural failures and the domino effect took care of the rest. tertiary shockwaves were recorded from it's collapse. nothing more, nothing less.

mannlicher/carcano my ass,

cuss
post #18 of 44
[quote]Originally posted by Robertp:
<strong>

[1]My theory of the explosion: The Ryder truck was filled with ammonium nitrate, deisel fuel and oxygen canisters for accelerant. Impossible. Reason: It would take approximately 15 tractor trailers of this material to cause the severe structural damage that occured. Ammonium nitrate (cow manure and deisel fuel with a triggered timing device) does not have a very efficient burn rate to give the concussion necessary to cause severe damage.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ain't true. There could have been enough in that truck to do it.

[quote]<strong>Point 2. The detonation of any explosive in a contained vessel will by nature of physics radiate it's concusion in a hemispherical path. Nearby buildings across the street only suffered minor damage and broken glass. The face of the building was constructed using the strucural reinforced concrete and rebar to give the building addequate protection against natural disasters. This type of bomb would have done nothing more than shatter the windows on the face of the building due to it's high structural integrity. The FBI and ATF both came to the conclusion that an ammonium nitrate bomb weighing in at 4,800lbs was used </strong><hr></blockquote>

You never know how an ACTUAL bomb is going to blow (from my own experience, ahem) and therefore the theoretical hemisphere isn't always a good guess. Also, modern buildings are easily undermined by explosions because they aren't designed to withstand them.

To see a similar incident, look at the Saudi barracks bombing.

The other stuff? I don't know.

I'm not saying that this thing is NOT a conspiracy of some kind (perhaps to discredit the militia movement or something). But the above points don't work to make it look more conspiratorial.

Besides, imagine the number of people necessary to cover that up? Heck, they couldn't even keep the M. Lewinsky thing covered up!
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post #19 of 44
[quote]If anyone is interested there is a book titled The Oklahoma City Bombing and The Politics of Terror by David Hoffman with a forward chapter by OK State Representative Charles Key, who also staed he was not buying into the bomb composition theory. For those interested in conspiracy info<hr></blockquote>

I have read this book and it is fascinating. Many things about the whole case stank, not least the trial, in which so much evidence that displayed gross inconsistencies in the Government's case were arbitrarily excluded on very questionable bases.
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #20 of 44
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by little cuss:
<strong>robert...

i appreciate your kindness and cool tones. i'm a copy-editor at same-said newspaper(The Daily Oklahoman, circ 350k). i worked not only the bombing but the f5 tornado in may of '99. excuse my sloppy style on these forums but uh, i do this for a living so ... yeah.

speaking only as a journalist and first-hand witness(not to mention amateur bomb builder of some successes, toot toot, goes my own horn) i can tell you that our men on the job, Clay and Bozkiewicz, have delved deeply into these theories and presented them to some fine professors down the road at OU and elsewhere and found little real evidence to support them. so little in fact that we rarely mentioned their exsistence in the paper without tons of disclaimers and won't publish any such flimsy crap nowadays(been there done that, with that particular book). Look how many books were written on the JFK assassination? how many of those, do you suppose, are accurate? any dumbass can write a book, go to yer local Borders for proof. Note it's quack publishing house and their other titles for reference. these books sell good at gun shows and nowhere else... fer a reason.

so to you i say, stand back for a sec... look at that 'schematic'... it's about the most unscientific drawing i've ever seen. notice also the unattributed and spectre-like 'scientists' who've supposedly signed off on these theories. they are ex-military men, and they, sadly, can contain the most paranoid people among our population(see also Mcveigh). to claim a 1k lb. ANFO bomb barely musses yer hair is retarded. i myself have built black-powder pipe bombs(single 1" cold-rolled with caps), and, with the proper hot ignition source, it easily severed 3 ft of re-barred concrete and it's concussion knocked me to the ground and pummeled the wind out of me like a punch to the gut.

that photo isn't bolstering any conspiracy either ... and to be able to say that certain structural supports were cut rather than destroyed by the collapse of a "lowest-bidder-built" government building is a bit silly and poorly considered.

let's keep it cool,

cuss

p.s. i'd love it if you'd present something a little more substantive. i'm no expert on explosives... so please, have at it, and if you don't believe me, send that book to a professor to read...i'm sure any scientist of merit would laugh at it's inconsistencies. some already have ... on the old AI, some shockwave studies were presented, purporting secondary explosions. i'd hate to have to refute them again, so please... stick to newer theories and thanks again.

p.p.s. please to consider that dumbass professor of anthro in the PACNW that leads the hunt for bigfoot too. he was quite convinced he could extrapolate the size of the 'creature' in the Patterson-Gimlin film... and did so. then, some fellers from RIT/MIT got ahold of it.... heeee, wasn't pretty. so robt, the truth is out there and suffice it to say that you won't take my word for it... this is the last lengthy post without chuckles you'll get from me, okay? i've found what i needed know about it, now it's your turn i guess. why, little old me, once butted heads with a professor of entomology at the University of Nebraska because he believed in Rods... heheee, the stupid bastard. it took some work, and help from a buddy contracting at Sandia, but he eventually changed his mind. there's no shortage of idiotic scientists out yonder robt and they'll sign off on anything, in most cases, just to be the first, so be wary.

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: little cuss ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Great to have a source at the newspaper and an eye witness as well. Could you please list the names of the ATF agents killed in the bombing. The press (Washington Post, NY Times, etc.) failed to print these deaths in the listing of victims. Seeing as you are copy edotor you should have no problem listing a link to your papers historical listings.You did say you were the copy editor for The Daily Oklahoman, correct? Also you could give us the link to the letter that state representative Charles Key wrote petitioning the First Circuit Court of OK City asking for a federal grand jury court order to keep the remnants of the building intact for further investigation. I have never heard of a crime scene being destroyed so quickly before, especially on the magnitude of the Murrah building being a Federal building. Also, why can't you show the pictures you took? You could not possibly have anything more than was already published could you? As far as debunking the credibility of the various sources in the book I gave reference to in my previous post, what of the 2 expert witnesses in the trial? Steven Burmeister, a 2year FBI agent gave testimony as to the chemical make-up of the bomb, and Linda Jones, a chemist from the UK, used to coroborate Burmeister's testimony. Could they not find witnesses with more years of field experience and someone from the US to backup their findings?

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
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post #21 of 44
sorry...

don't have a scanner. You could come to my house... they're hanging on my darkroom wall. I keep hearing all this rot about why no ATF/FBI deaths... even from Rep. Key. it stymies me, because Key maintains that the ATF were assigned to offices in the Murrah when everyone including Key knows their offices AND the FBI offices are at 50 Penn Place. Always have been. Some 3 miles north of the Murrah... as for a link to our archives? well, you pay the fee and you're welcome to it.

<a href="http://www.newsok.com" target="_blank">www.newsok.com</a>

as to the expert testimonials of Burmeister and Jones? i dunno pal, ask the PA. i believe Mrs. Jones had worked many similar IRA bombings and had some expertise there. as for Burmeister... and the out-of-context-quotes of the book yer championing.... well, you do the math. these tricks are old-hat to me. You know, James Nichols wrote a book too. why not check out the gun show next time it's in town... you can find it there. right next to the one about some guy getting his wife killed for a sawed-off shotgun... next to another one about a "religion" that hoarded guns and manufactured methamphetamines in the name of God.



c'mon pal... don't make me laff.

Sam... are you referring to the 4k pages of crap the Feds forgot to disclose? i've read through most of it. one witness in those "phantom mannlicher carcanno 4k pages" claims santa claus did it. no shit. it's stuff that no judge, not even "lapdog" Matsch would allow.

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: little cuss ]</p>
post #22 of 44
yer knight in shining armor....

Ex-FBI official loses lawsuit over book
2001-05-07
By Nolan Clay
Staff Writer


A former top FBI official has lost his libel lawsuit over a controversial book on the Oklahoma City bombing.
More coverage

An Oklahoma City judge on Thursday threw out the federal lawsuit against the book’s author and the wealthy Chicago businessman who financed the book’s research and writing.

Oliver “Buck” Revell, a retired FBI associate deputy director, complained that in the book, “The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Politics of Terror,” he was accused of allowing mass murder.

U.S. District Judge Robin J. Cauthron, however, ruled that Revell had not shown “by clear and convincing evidence, that (the) defendants knew of the falsity of the statements made, or that they recklessly disregarded the truth.”

At issue was an accusation in the book that Revell had advance knowledge of the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Scotland and personally pulled his son and daughter-in-law off the plane on the tarmac of the London airport.

Revell was in Washington, D.C., and he insists he didn’t know beforehand of the bomb on the plane.

His son, though briefly booked on the ill-fated flight, had left a week earlier. His daughter-in-law was in the United States.

The allegations, Revell said, “have caused me considerable embarrassment and anguish.”

“I’ve never been accused of being complicit in mass murder before,” said Revell, who once was the chief special agent for the FBI in Oklahoma City.

“I draw the line. I don’t mind criticism. People are entitled to their opinions, but I will not be accused of crimes, and I will defend myself using the law anytime anyone ... crosses that line.”

The book’s publisher, Feral House Inc., agreed in 1999 to destroy all copies because of the inaccuracies.

The author, David M. Hoffman, admitted last year he made mistakes on “details” and said he should have called Revell. But, Hoffman said, “I still hold to the essential facts of what I reported.”

Financial backer Alexander B. Magnus in March said the author made “a gross blunder” by not restricting the book to the Oklahoma City bombing.

Magnus said he was resentful Hoffman would “confuse people with nonsense like that when he should have been focusing only on the Murrah Building.”

Magnus began funding research into alternate theories into the 1995 attack to “see if we couldn’t contribute to preventing reoccurrences”

He disagrees with the official explanation for the destruction — a single truck bomb.

“It couldn’t be done with one bomb,” Magnus said. “There had to be additional cutting charges, demolition charges.”

Magnus said he paid more than $71,000 to Hoffman and also funded research led by former state Rep. Charles Key of Oklahoma City.

Hoffman, who now lives in California, was put on probation in 1999 after he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor jury tampering.

Hoffman got into trouble for sending his book to an alternate on the Oklahoma County grand jury investigating a series of conspiracy theories about the bombing.
post #23 of 44
Things that radiate in 3D space mostly* become weaker with the inverse squre of distance-- 1/r^2. 60 ft. vs. 400 ft. cannot be compared linearly. Foot for foot, the intensity reduces exponentially.

*I can't really think of things that don't. Things that do reduce with the inverse square: gravity, electric fields, and light intensity. I would imagine sound waves and/or explosions would work in the same manner.

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Arakageeta ]</p>
post #24 of 44
too true... the inverse square law. we use it in photography quite a bit as you might imagine.

and why the distance from curb(truck) to front facade is crucial to any study(10 feet, not more)... if you input a greater distance(60ft, like that dumbass Partin)... the answer is skewed exponentially too.


though, i'm not sure robt. is wanting that kind of argument anymore. not knowing that i can build him a high-yield pipebomb with strictly low-yield materials. ahh, those accelerants! they do work well... if i were tim... i wouldn't stop at pure oxygen... oxy-acetelyne maybe.. easy to get... Av-gas...or dragfuel yup... or octane boost... also, real easy to get.
post #25 of 44
The angle at which the forces hit a wall would also affect things I would guess...
post #26 of 44
again, a well-educated guess... throw in an infinite amount of hard-to-reproduce but essential variables too... fer instance, where did the solid axle throw it's reflected shockwave? was it a knife-edged shockwave compared to the others that were surely not travelling outward hemispherically due to all the infinite shiz? also, how hard was the street? concrete? asphault or brick?

it was brick... i live here.. 'member? wink wink... and that'd reflect one helluva shockwave up, and out due to it's steep crown and being a harder surface, restrict the size of the crater too and god knows how much.... but you'd know this... it's common sense right? unless you neglected to control your testing procedures. ahem, partin me.

i like how the dumbass that wrote the book speculated about the camouflaged and booted foot?

and then we tested the DNA and linked it to one of our missing army gals Lakesha Levy... yup. i'd trust that sh!tstain with a $71k of my money and my word processor. get yer sillyass sued is what he'd do.

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />


cuss
post #27 of 44
oh robert.....

where are you?

still 90% sure of yer 90% facts?

oh Sam... still fascinated by that book?
post #28 of 44
btw robt...

my bullshit detector pings very loudly when someone prefaces their arguments with the old "keep an open mind" statement. make note otay? snake oil salesmen and hucksters use it too much... so uh, ya might wanna edit that out next time.

open minds have little to do with science...

and i love guns,

cuss
post #29 of 44
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by little cuss:
[QB]sorry...

don't have a scanner. You could come to my house... they're hanging on my darkroom wall. I keep hearing all this rot about why no ATF/FBI deaths... even from Rep. Key. it stymies me, because Key maintains that the ATF were assigned to offices in the Murrah when everyone including Key knows their offices AND the FBI offices are at 50 Penn Place. Always have been. Some 3 miles north of the Murrah... as for a link to our archives? well, you pay the fee and you're welcome to it.
__________________________________________________ Littlecuss,

You state that NO ATF officers were assingned to the Murrah Federal Building? Then please explain to me why the transcripts located on The Oklahoman Newpaper link YOU sent me show that the testimony of one Richard Williams, a GSA Employee who was in charge of all building maintenance systems gives a detailed outline of the blueprints of the Murrah building showing which floors house which offices, stated that the 13 ATF feild agents were located on the 9th floor? Is he lying to the court? Mind you this is during the trial and The Oklahoman Paper has all transcripts of the complete trial for all to see. As copy editor for said paper you should have known that ATF and DEA were both housed in this building. Maybe this was an oversight on your end perhaps? Please let me know about this and I am still waiting for the link to the letter that YOUR editor wrote in response to Charles Key asking for a stay of the demolition of the Murrah building for further investigation. Please don't try and say that the court transcripts on YOUR newpaper site are "bogus" , as this would lead to misdirection on YOUR newspaper's part. I await your reply.


[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
Reply
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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post #30 of 44
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by little cuss:
<strong>btw robt...

my bullshit detector pings very loudly when someone prefaces their arguments with the old "keep an open mind" statement. make note otay? snake oil salesmen and hucksters use it too much... so uh, ya might wanna edit that out next time.

open minds have little to do with science...

and i love guns,

cuss</strong><hr></blockquote>
__________________________________________________

My bullshit detector pings even LOUDER when someone does not answer the directed question. See above post for complete details.



[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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post #31 of 44
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robertp:
[qb][QUOTE]Originally posted by little cuss:
[QB]sorry...

don't have a scanner. You could come to my house... they're hanging on my darkroom wall. I keep hearing all this rot about why no ATF/FBI deaths... even from Rep. Key. it stymies me, because Key maintains that the ATF were assigned to offices in the Murrah when everyone including Key knows their offices AND the FBI offices are at 50 Penn Place. Always have been. Some 3 miles north of the Murrah... as for a link to our archives? well, you pay the fee and you're welcome to it.
__________________________________________________ Littlecuss, How in the hell could a copy editor for a newspaper have no scanner?

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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post #32 of 44
O.....M......G :eek: little cuss doesn´t have a scanner. Coincidence? I think not. He must be a BlackOps agent planted by the government to control the renegade AI community and make sure that we don´t figure out the whole conspiracy complot the UN, the government and M$ is playing on us.

Or in other words: "oh, another crackpot conspiracy theorist at work"
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
post #33 of 44
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>O.....M......G :eek: little cuss doesn´t have a scanner. Coincidence? I think not. He must be a BlackOps agent planted by the government to control the renegade AI community and make sure that we don´t figure out the whole conspiracy complot the UN, the government and M$ is playing on us.

Or in other words: "oh, another crackpot conspiracy theorist at work" </strong><hr></blockquote>

AAHHAA, little cuss WAS the man on the grassy knoll in Dallas....

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
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post #34 of 44
nope,

you've found me out... i'm a 15 year old living in connecticut.

sorry,

cuss
post #35 of 44
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by little cuss:
<strong>nope,

you've found me out... i'm a 15 year old living in connecticut.

sorry,

cuss</strong><hr></blockquote>

Great reply!!

Try re-reading my post and take another shot cuss..
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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post #36 of 44
hey pal,

it's yer mystery. i've got my answers. why no ATF agents killed? maybe because they weren't there?

just a guess,

cuss

p.s. sorry about the bullsh!tting, but you shouldn't believe everything you read.

p.p.s. how many SS agents were killed? and DEA?

p.p.p.s. hey, give me some postulations about the warnings that were issued before the blast? let's us see you apply some occam's ointment this time.
post #37 of 44
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by little cuss:
<strong>hey pal,

it's yer mystery. i've got my answers. why no ATF agents killed? maybe because they weren't there?

just a guess,

cuss

p.s. sorry about the bullsh!tting, but you shouldn't believe everything you read.

p.p.s. how many SS agents were killed? and DEA?

p.p.p.s. hey, give me some postulations about the warnings that were issued before the blast? let's us see you apply some occam's ointment this time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Please see this link little cuss, you should know it because it is your newspaper.
<a href="http://www.newsok.com" target="_blank">www.newsok.com</a> when this page comes up scroll down to the bottom and look to the left hand coulmn. Click on OKC Bombing, scroll down this page to Bombing Archives and select Trial Transcripts. Select Mcveigh Trial Transcripts from the upper left side. Scroll down to the bottom and select OKC BoMBING TRIAL TRANSCRIPT-04/25/97 16:23 CDT/CST. Scroll through this transcript (or read all if desired) to witness Richard E. Williams and read his floor by floor account of what departments are located on which floor. ATF is on the 9th floor.

As for the personal # of victims..as follows:
GSA- 2
DOD-5
FECU(CREDIT UNION)-18
DOT-11
ARMY RECRUITING-7
DEP. of AGRIC.-7
INSPECTOR GENERAL-1
CUSTOMS-2
MARINE CORP-2
HUD-34
DEA-6
SS-5
Please note I kept the count to employees only and did not include the day care children or visitors in this number. Again I have presented the fact that ATF agents were indeed officed here, a fact which you refuted without proof. The court transcripts , again were posted on YOUR papers website and are THE court transcripts available for the public under the FOIA(FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT). Now please tell me where I am dreaming this up and please do not reference THE book..your entire posting on the lawsuit on this book has no bearing whatsoever on the question I posed to you that still (last post to me) you did not answer. Since I am full of "snake oil" please let me in on what I have just posted that is on YOUR newspapers website that is false. I again await a direct answer to this valid question. Please try to address it directly and not veer off on another wild story or accusation of my posting. (unless you have proof in another website to refute your papers website). Thanks again


P.S. The BULLSHIT I read came from THE DAILY OKLAHOMAN, you know, the paper you are copy editor for.

P.P.S. as for the "advanced warning" you mention...haven't heard about that one..document source on this?

P.P.P.S. Please respond to my pleas for your insight and wisdom on this

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-09-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-09-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-09-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
Reply
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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post #38 of 44
YOU GOTTA BUY ME DINNER FIRST!

cuss
post #39 of 44
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by little cuss:
<strong>YOU GOTTA BUY ME DINNER FIRST!

cuss</strong><hr></blockquote>

I will definetly SUPERSIZE that McD's Happy Meal for an answer

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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post #40 of 44
okay gunshow boy... i'll repeat my answer again.

they were away from the office that morning. it's something field agents are proned to do.

and yes, they'd been warned, in fact... they'd received multiple warnings and not just that year, but every april 19 since waco.

now where's my happy meal?

cuss
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