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US government legalizes iPhone 'jailbreaking,' unlocking - Page 2

post #41 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

It won't. I suspect the percentage of iPhone buyers who are interested in this is has never been higher than the low single digits, and will not increase measurably. Outside of forums like this, I've never heard anyone say that they were unhappy with Apple's security model for the iPhone, let alone that they wanted to jailbreak their phone but were afraid to do so before because it's "illegal."

With it being legal, it might move out of the underground. Very few legit companies would be willing to market tools to aid in unlocking/jailbreaking without clear rules making it legal. the jailbreak/unlock 'market' seems similar to the market for modding game consoles. People will do it, but you don't see it be advertised at BestBuy or other major service retailers. That might change now. If it becomes legitimized by mainstream companies, you might see more people asking about it. That is where I would hope the pressure on Apple might come from.

or course no major electronic retailer would want to piss off Apple by offering such a service either...maybe t-mob might.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #42 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

I wouldn't like the government telling me how to run my business. For some reason, I just can't get excited about this.

What's next?

As above, very likely, nothing.

Without the government, nobody enjoys copyright and patent protections. Perhaps it would be best not to be automatically up in arms every time a small change is made in the laws or interpretations of the meaning of the laws.
Please don't be insane.
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post #43 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202 View Post

There is a limit to what we can do. For example, we are free to do as we choose provided it does not lead to the detriment of the ability of others to make their own choice. It will lead to chaos, if each person is to be the sole judge of their own action, because different people have differing perspectives. That is why we have arbiters, and in a civilized society, that is the laws of the land, locally or nationally.

CGC

Thanks for the lesson... Who knew?
post #44 of 220
Bottom Line: Once the device is purchased, the purchaser should be free to do anything they desire with it... Including Jailbreaking.

Next Up: The Apple Only Apps Store
"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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post #45 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

With it being legal, it might move out of the underground. Very few legit companies would be willing to market tools to aid in unlocking/jailbreaking without clear rules making it legal. the jailbreak/unlock 'market' seems similar to the market for modding game consoles. People will do it, but you don't see it be advertised at BestBuy or other major service retailers. That might change now. If it becomes legitimized by mainstream companies, you might see more people asking about it. That is where I would hope the pressure on Apple might come from.

or course no major electronic retailer would want to piss off Apple by offering such a service either...maybe t-mob might.

Possibly, but I doubt it would make any significant difference in the numbers of people willing to take the risk of bypassing Apple's security model. The gain to offset the increased risk would have to be substantial, and I just don't see the gain. If you think Apple will be pressured into listing porn apps in the AppStore, I'd say guess again.
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post #46 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

You had me at "Hello", but iTunes DRM-free purchases are a poor example of pirating these days.

Also, what do you think cable and satellite companies are doing when they set predetermined, exclusive packages when all you wanted was to watch one specific channel? I don't know about you, but I don't like to buy the extended package only to realize that the bulk of the channels offer infomercials for much of their schedule, meaning I am paying them to watch them sell me stuff? No thanks.

DRM free iTunes songs are relatively recent. But, I was not referring to purchased iTunes media but rather physical CDs that iTunes allows you to rip. And has done so for many years. I figure there must have been millions of songs on napster, limewire etc that were ripped by people using iTunes. That isn't enough to argue that using iTunes should have been criminal.

I think the cable/sat companies are doing just what you describe. They are selling you canned packages. That doesn't prevent you from watching your own DVDs or switching providers or anything else you choose to watch on your TV...even though allowing you to do so also means you could potentially use it to watch illegal material. Not that they aren't trying with various DMCA enabled digital restrictions.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

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post #47 of 220
verizon


9


apple will seel 300000 on this news
whats in a name ? 
beatles
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whats in a name ? 
beatles
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post #48 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

But if unlocking is now okay, then jailbreaking just to use another carrier is no longer a valid excuse, no?

Personally, I think it's a bad move and the proof is in the text of the law itself.

The reason jailbreaking is being allowed is because it's considered that if you legally obtain a program to run on your device, the government now thinks you should have that right to do so. The problem is that the majority of jailbreaking goes on specifically to enable illegal programs on the device (stolen software).

So now everyone will be allowed to jailbreak, but 90% of those doing it will still be breaking the law. However the new law is vague enough and difficult enough to prove or adjudicate, that they will never be arrested. This will enable more jailbreaking and thus more criminality, all under the auspices of stronger and more specific laws.

Greeeaaatt!

Unless you know more about the law than was already posted in the mass media, it did not repeal the essence and foundations of copyright, trademark and patent laws.

Thus, that one can do something, as a result of what is referred to here as jailbreaking, does not legalize what could be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

It's unclear from the information about this released so far, but I believe in the past, Apple has refused to provide warranty services to users who jailbreak, essentially arguing that the warranty terms have been violated. But it would seem now that they will won't be able to claim that the warranties have been voided. Still I don't think that Apple will have to support someone who hoses their iPhone with malware.

I do not think the government can truly micromanage the law to also define the terms of agreement. It would be very difficult for the government for example to specify -- if jailbreaking results in the malfunction of the device, the vendor is obligated to cover the cost of repair.

CGC
post #49 of 220
Here is an excerpt of the Librarian of Congress' press release:

(2) Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications, when they have been lawfully obtained, with computer programs on the telephone handset.

(3) Computer programs, in the form of firmware or software, that enable used wireless telephone handsets to connect to a wireless telecommunications network, when circumvention is initiated by the owner of the copy of the computer program solely in order to connect to a wireless telecommunications network and access to the network is authorized by the operator of the network.

The new rule does not protect those who jailbreak to run pirated programs, but rather lawfully obtained programs such as those on Cydia or homemade programs.

Perhaps "jailbreak" isn't the correct term anymore, at least in the United States?!?
post #50 of 220
Unlocking the US iPhone so you can use it on other US carriers is technologically limited to T-Mobile EDGE only. No 3G. Also, jailbreaking and unlocking is two different things.

A big question is- will Apple be required to honor the warranty?
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post #51 of 220
I hope this does not lead to a situation where app developers start adding onerous authentication schemes to make sure that each instance of the app has been legitimately purchased.
post #52 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorotea View Post

Don't think the rules force apple to support iPhones that have been jail broken. The rules simply make it officially legal to jail break an iPhone.

And of course in the U.S. Where will you go for a different carrier. Verizon? No. T-mobile? Maybe if the coverage doesn't suck.

When both AT&T and Verizon are both on the LTE network, yes! We'll all have to wait for 4G iPhones and the 4G network to be up and running in most cities, but it will work.
post #53 of 220
Jailbreaking the SOFTWARE voids your warranty, being SOFTWARE and not the HARDWARE, a simple restore in iTunes restores your SOFTWARE and also RESTORES your warranty. I've been told by the Genius bar in multiple stores before to restore my iPhone before they can take a look at it, which is exactly what should be done seeing as they can't be expected to know everything that can go on with a jailbroken device. I have been jailbreaking since the days of iOS 1.2 and have never had a problem being serviced by Apple.
post #54 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

I hope this does not lead to a situation where app developers start adding onerous authentication schemes to make sure that each instance of the app has been legitimately purchased.

Funny enough, this is what most paid apps in Cydia have in place. I've been forced to have to pirate non appstore apps that I have previously purchased just so I can run them on my iPhone and iPad at the same time. I'm sure Apple can come up with a much better copy protection system, but it's easier for them to just try to block jailbreaking.
post #55 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Possibly, but I doubt it would make any significant difference in the numbers of people willing to take the risk of bypassing Apple's security model. The gain to offset the increased risk would have to be substantial, and I just don't see the gain. If you think Apple will be pressured into listing porn apps in the AppStore, I'd say guess again.

No, I don't think they will be pressured to that extent. Other companies, perhaps google, might be willing to set up a 'legitimized' alternative app store where things like that would be accepted.

My hope would be some of the more arbitrary rejection or rejections that were meant to target companies no longer in their good graces (GV). If the app meets their current opinion of what is socially acceptable and actually provides a useful service or feature to their users and if their users now can easily get the apps elsewhere, maybe, just maybe, they might loosen up, just a bit.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #56 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaporland View Post

since we can now jailbreak iPhones, can we also run OSX on a Dell or HP computer without fear of prosecution, if we've bought a legal copy of OSX?


No, creating derivative works (which is what hackintoshing is) is still not allowed and has nothing to do with this case.
post #57 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

I hope this does not lead to a situation where app developers start adding onerous authentication schemes to make sure that each instance of the app has been legitimately purchased.

It probably will.

Lets not be naive about this. To the extent that this changes anything at all (I would argue things will stay the same to a large degree), it's a change to the worse for everyone except the jailbreaker looking for free programs. Virtually all the effects of this decision will be negative to the end user with one exception.

Either someone will set up a legal second store with the "morally questionable" (girls in bikinis) apps, or Apple will have to relent on their Disney-eque fantasy and allow them in the regular store.

AFAIKS every single other aspect of jailbreaks being legal is a net loss for the average consumer.

(note I'm not talking about unlocking which is a good thing).
post #58 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaporland View Post

since we can now jailbreak iPhones, can we also run OSX on a Dell or HP computer without fear of prosecution, if we've bought a legal copy of OSX?

Fear of prosecution?

How ignorant are you?

Apple doesn't care if you want to run OS X on a Dell, HP or any other PC. They do care and will seek suit if you try to sell the service or finished product. That you can't do.

You could always jailbreak your iPhones. Just that Apple will not and does not have to provide support or service if you bring in a jailbroken phone. Now that may be ok for those that realize that an iOS upgrade won't be as simple as it is now. Just don't think that the iTunes store should be part of your begging.

Keep in mind, the new exemption which supposedly will "allow owners of used cell phones to break access controls on their phones in order to switch wireless carrier," begs the question does that mean you have to complete or buy out your AT&T contract to get the exemption?

Note that there is no law that forces Apple to unlock the phone for you, as well as, service and support an unlocked phone or any of the OS upgrades or apps you got via the iTunes store.

So if you are so-inclined to bypass the conditions that Apple has imposed, go for it. Some will do quite well. So they think. But don't come here and rant or try to blame Apple or its carriers for an issue that you caused by ignorantly considering your right of (perpetual) ownership.

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post #59 of 220
This should sell a few more iPods/iPhones and eventually iPads
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post #60 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

Thanks for the lesson... Who knew?

In reality we are so imprisoned by our own point of view that we sometimes have difficulty understanding the limits of what we can and cannot do. In the US for example, religious zealots have a view of what is right and wrong, and consider it their choice and right to ensure that their view must prevail irrespective of the choices and differeng views of others. If that will not suffice, some extremist even went to the extent of murdering those who will not adhere to what they believe in.

That is an extreme example. I am sure you can think of more nuanced situations and cases where government has to define the parameters of what people can and cannot do.

That the government, as it works usually, may be usurped by the powerful to their advantage and the detriment of many in society is one reason why some people mistrust the role of government in our lives.

CGC
post #61 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

I hope this does not lead to a situation where app developers start adding onerous authentication schemes to make sure that each instance of the app has been legitimately purchased.

That's a very good question.
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post #62 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337 View Post

Funny enough, this is what most paid apps in Cydia have in place.

You are correct. That is pretty funny. The fact that app developers who sell apps on Cydia feel the need to protect themselves from piracy kind of gives lie to the lame protestations we often see that jailbreakers are not doing a significant amount of pirating.
post #63 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Possibly, but I doubt it would make any significant difference in the numbers of people willing to take the risk of bypassing Apple's security model.

Yeah, because that's been so reliably rock-solid.
post #64 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Hahaha Apple. Now what?

Don't get your hopes up, hater. Making something "legal" does not prevent Apple from continuing to thwart jailbreaking software. Absolutely NOTHING has changed. Apple can still lock their devices, use whatever means they can to prevent unlocking. They are not required to facilitate jailbreaking, they are not required to unlock their devices. They can still void warranties on a modified device or software. In short the only thing that changed is the legal status of jailbreaking.
post #65 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202 View Post

In reality we are so imprisoned by our own point of view that we sometimes have difficulty understanding the limits of what we can and cannot do. In the US for example, religious zealots have a view of what is right and wrong, and consider it their choice and right to ensure that their view must prevail irrespective of the choices and differeng views of others. If that will not suffice, some extremist even went to the extent of murdering those who will not adhere to what they believe in.

That is an extreme example. I am sure you can think of more nuanced situations and cases where government has to define the parameters of what people can and cannot do.

That the government, as it works usually, may be usurped by the powerful to their advantage and the detriment of many in society is one reason why some people mistrust the role of government in our lives.

CGC

Shouldn't that make people mistrust 'the powerful' even more?
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post #66 of 220
Don't think it even phases Apple. If you jailbreak, warranty is voided and Apple saves time and resources having to support another phone. Unlocking? You'd still have to buy a phone so it doesn't affect revenue. AT&T might even be happy if some folks migrated off their network.
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post #67 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdh26 View Post

Why would Apple even care?

Exactly. That is a great question. It is totally silly that Apple has stuck to this for so long.

As some of have been predicting here, this outcome was to be expected at some point. For once, I am actually impressed with the regulators!

Now, the key question: when/how will ATT allow formal unlocks, at least on phones that are past the two-year contract? How would one actually go about it?
post #68 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Don't get your hopes up, hater. Making something "legal" does not prevent Apple from continuing to thwart jailbreaking software. Absolutely NOTHING has changed. Apple can still lock their devices, use whatever means they can to prevent unlocking. They are not required to facilitate jailbreaking, they are not required to unlock their devices. They can still void warranties on a modified device or software. In short the only thing that changed is the legal status of jailbreaking.

Perhaps this will only help increase the sale of iPhones.
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post #69 of 220
Would this only apply to the US do you think?

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post #70 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Underhill View Post

This should sell a few more iPods/iPhones and eventually iPads

iPads are already unlocked. No reason why Apple couldn't do the same with iPhones. (Not sure how this matters for iPods, though).
post #71 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

someone will set up a legal second store with the "morally questionable" (girls in bikinis) apps, or Apple will have to relent on their Disney-eque fantasy and allow them in the regular store.

I have to think that the folks at Apple are rolling on their sides on this one.

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post #72 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

As above, very likely, nothing.

Without the government, nobody enjoys copyright and patent protections.

Or defense. Or public health. Or foreign policy. Or currency. Etc.
post #73 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by min_t View Post

Don't think it even phases Apple. .......

Fazes.
post #74 of 220
It was illegal before? It's your phone you can do what you want with it.
post #75 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

You are correct. That is pretty funny. The fact that app developers who sell apps on Cydia feel the need to protect themselves from piracy kind of gives lie to the lame protestations we often see that jailbreakers are not doing a significant amount of pirating.

No more so than the existence of DRM on CD's and DVD's and software gives lie to the lame protestations we often see that owners of CDs and DVDs and software are not doing a significant amount of pirating.

Are you a pirate? The fact that your physical media has DRM would seem to imply so, no?

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #76 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The U.S. government on Monday announced new rules that make it officially legal for iPhone owners to "jailbreak" their device

When was it "officially illegal"?
post #77 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Exactly. That is a great question. It is totally silly that Apple has stuck to this for so long.

As some of have been predicting here, this outcome was to be expected at some point. For once, I am actually impressed with the regulators!

Now, the key question: when/how will ATT allow formal unlocks, at least on phones that are past the two-year contract? How would one actually go about it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Perhaps this will only help increase the sale of iPhones.

Not a chance in hell. When will the pseudo-tech crowd finally admit that real people don't think or act like they do. The typical Apple customer has no interest in modifying, jailbreaking, or doing anything else with their device. And they are not technically inclined to do so either. They are not tinkerers. They may want to copy/convert their DVDs to give to their friends but they are not capable of doing so. Just visit any website that discusses such software. The nerds probably see this as some sort of victory over the manufacturers but it is not. Nothing changes where the rubber hits the road. Jailbroken devices are in the extreme minority and will remain so.
post #78 of 220
I see a lot of posts here assuming that these rules will force or compel Apple or at&t to facilitate unlocking. On what assumption are you basing this? Wishful thinking?
post #79 of 220
The legality of jailbreaking was never an issue. This will create more problems for jailbreakers (below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

after this jailbreaks will not be free anymore, the government just created a new market.

Exactly. In short, this ruling basically says "It is legal to sell phone jailbreaking and unlocking software". People are singling out Apple here but this applies to ALL cell phones.
post #80 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

When was it "officially illegal"?

It was ambiguous. Apple went to the Copyright office and argued that the act of jailbreaking was itself a copyright infringement. The EFF argued that jailbreaking might make it possible for copyright infringement to occur but was not it itself infringement. They saw it as similar to making copies of your physical media. There are legit and non-legitimate reasons for doing it but that the act itself should be covered by fair use.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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