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The Free Speech Thread - Page 6

post #201 of 357
7/5/11 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I watched the first one of these last night, looking forward to the other two.

Good. Hope you enjoy them. I found them very interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You often say you're for freedom etc but it's often in the interests of business to thwart these small scale businesses by any means possible.

Yes I am and I'm opposed to businesses that use dishonest, illegal or immoral means to thwart anyone. Typically that is accomplished in partnership with the state though. Big businesses use the regulatory apparatus of the government to snuff out smaller competitors. It's called regulatory capture and it is happening all the time. If you watch the videos, I believe he mentions some examples of this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The US wrote into the constitution for Iraq that Iraq must allow Monsanto et al to sell their "debt crops", ie genetically modified seeds that aren't allowed to be stored, which is how farmers have operated since time immemorial, but instead the farmer has to buy new seeds every year if they want to grow the same crop again, which they typically have to, to pay back the money they owe already. The seeds contaminate traditional seeds too deteriorating the crops of local farmers. Fuck and then we eat that shit (sorry it really pisses me off).

Thank you for pointing out yet another example of how governments and the US government in particular try to restrict freedom. This is what governments do. There are two lines from the move "Pirate Radio" that I think summarize this quite eloquently:

"Governments loathe people being free." -- Quentin

"You see, that's the whole point of being the government. If you don't like something you simply make up a new law that makes it illegal." -- Minister Dormandy

I would say truer words have never been spoken.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The more people like the guy in your video the better.

I agree for many reasons.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #202 of 357
7/5/11 at 2:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Good. Hope you enjoy them. I found them very interesting.




Yes I am and I'm opposed to businesses that use dishonest, illegal or immoral means to thwart anyone. Typically that is accomplished in partnership with the state though. Big businesses use the regulatory apparatus of the government to snuff out smaller competitors. It's called regulatory capture and it is happening all the time. If you watch the videos, I believe he mentions some examples of this.




Thank you for pointing out yet another example of how governments and the US government in particular try to restrict freedom. This is what governments do. There are two lines from the move "Pirate Radio" that I think summarize this quite eloquently:

"Governments loathe people being free." -- Quentin

"You see, that's the whole point of being the government. If you don't like something you simply make up a new law that makes it illegal." -- Minister Dormandy

I would say truer words have never been spoken.




I agree for many reasons.

The politicians get bought off by the lobbyists and the lobbyists work for businesses in most cases. That said I'm sure there are plenty of politicians seeking lobbyists approval. If there's one country on earth that best known for business buying the government, it's the US. Goes without saying, usually.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #203 of 357
7/5/11 at 2:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

"Although non-defense discretionary spending in nominal dollars has increased, when taking inflation and population growth into account the amount contained in the [2011 budget] represents no increase over what we spent in 2001, a year in which we generated a surplus of $128 billion," said chairman Daniel Inouye (D-HI) in a prepared statement. "So the right question to ask is: Are we really spending too much on non-defense programs? The answer is clearly no."


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WATCH THIS- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTzMq...layer_embedded


It bears repeating that tax cuts for the richest 1% are costing us jobs and that's not Obama's fault it's the repubs fault- WATCH THIS- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTzMq...layer_embedded

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #204 of 357
7/5/11 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The politicians get bought off by the lobbyists and the lobbyists work for businesses in most cases. That said I'm sure there are plenty of politicians seeking lobbyists approval. If there's one country on earth that best known for business buying the government, it's the US. Goes without saying, usually.

Yes, I know and understand this...though I'm not sure I'd agree that the US is particularly worse than any other government.

Now here's the crucial question: If the government keeps getting bought and used as a tool for private special interests (business and otherwise)...why keep giving it (the government) more power and money?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #205 of 357
7/5/11 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It bears repeating that tax cuts for the richest 1% are costing us jobs

Except that repeating it doesn't make it any more true. Sorry.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #206 of 357
7/5/11 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, I know and understand this...though I'm not sure I'd agree that the US is particularly worse than any other government.

Now here's the crucial question: If the government keeps getting bought and used as a tool for private special interests (business and otherwise)...why keep giving it (the government) more power and money?

Ever wonder why the US has no real healthcare, even when the government spends far more per citizen than they do in the UK and other places, even whilst Americans spend all they've got on insurance?

Ever wonder why the US won't set targets on CO2 emissions?


To answer your question the people of the US have to demand more and expect more. Most repubs though seem to relish that business can buy government from healthcare to CO2. I'm not saying the dems aren't guilty too but it's the right in America that sells America.

We're going to disagree here but whilst government is undeniably heavily swayed by powerful interests, take the government out of the equation and the powerful interests will have even more power.

The solution is to give the people more power and keep a check on both government and business. Pretty much the only people in this world who are worth dealing with want to empower the common man, everyone else is up to no good.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #207 of 357
7/5/11 at 3:48pm
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE=MJ1970;1895329]Except that repeating it doesn't make it any more true. Sorry.[/QUOTE

I wouldn't expect you to disagree with Reich here.

The middle class make up a large percentage of the spending power of the US and the spending is the engine for 70% of the US's GDP.

The middle classes income is stagnating (indeed for many their income has gone down), whilst the wealthiest 6% and especially the top 1% and above have seen substantial and often huge increases in their wealth.

The money at the top for the most part isn't spent, it's invested, and despite what you choose to believe, that doesn't create the number of jobs that are created when the middle class have money, because the middle class spend that money at a much higher rate than those wealthy people. That pumps money into the economy through them buying cars, clothes, Macs etc etc.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #208 of 357
7/5/11 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

and the spending is the engine for 70% of the US's GDP.

Actually it really isn't. This is a a myth promulgated by an economically ignorant media.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The money at the top for the most part isn't spent, it's invested

Exactly. Which is what creates jobs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

, and despite what you choose to believe, that doesn't create the number of jobs that are created when the middle class have money, because the middle class spend that money at a much higher rate than those wealthy people. That pumps money into the economy through them buying cars, clothes, Macs etc etc.

This is a classical error. The investment and production must happen first. Consumption comes after production...always.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #209 of 357
7/5/11 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Ever wonder why the US has no real healthcare

I don't because it's not true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

even whilst Americans spend all they've got on insurance?

Nor is that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Ever wonder why the US won't set targets on CO2 emissions?

Not really. But it's probably because we realize it would crippled the economy and impoverish millions of people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

To answer your question the people of the US have to demand more and expect more.

More what?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Most repubs though seem to relish that business can buy government from healthcare to CO2. I'm not saying the dems aren't guilty too but it's the right in America that sells America.

Don't kid yourself, it's both.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

We're going to disagree here but whilst government is undeniably heavily swayed by powerful interests, take the government out of the equation and the powerful interests will have even more power.

This is a common claim by the left. But it doesn't really stand to reason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The solution is to give the people more power

Which is exactly the opposite of giving more power to government. But many keep wanting to give more power to the government. Go figure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Pretty much the only people in this world who are worth dealing with want to empower the common man

And I'll wager that almost none of them are in government.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #210 of 357
7/5/11 at 5:22pm
Thread Starter 
REID-

"Reid's first measure in that direction is a non-binding resolution that states: "It is the sense of the Senate that any agreement to reduce the budget deficit should require that those earning $1,000,000 or more per year make a more meaningful contribution to the deficit reduction effort."

The measure describes how well the wealthy have done lately, citing statistics that say the median income of S&P 500 companies chief financial officers jumped $2.9 million last year alone, even though the "median family income has declined by more than $2,500" in the last 10 years.

The resolution also notes that 20 percent all income goes to the top 1 percent, and 80 percent of the nation's income growth over the last quarter century has also gone to the top 1 percent.


GOP RESPONSE-

"Having the Senate declare that millionaires should share more of the pain involved in putting America's financial house in order is "rather pathetic," Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) declared Tuesday.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #211 of 357
7/5/11 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't because it's not true.

Sorry you don't qualify to comment on the state of US healthcare compared to the rest of the world. US $150 for an ear infection, an hour long wait after the appointment time, 5 minutes' consultation and some antibiotic ear drops, is not 'real health care'. As a non citizen traveling here in Hong Kong, in case something happens, you can get complete hospital treatment for $250 a day, unsubsidized by the government. As a US citizen if something happens and I need to go to the hospital in the US, what happens? Fuhgeddabout it! That's not real health care.
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post #212 of 357
7/5/11 at 5:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Sorry you don't qualify to comment on the state of US healthcare compared to the rest of the world.

I am qualified to comment on a comment that declares there is no real healthcare in the US.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #213 of 357
7/5/11 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually it really isn't. This is a a myth promulgated by an economically ignorant media.




Exactly. Which is what creates jobs.




This is a classical error. The investment and production must happen first. Consumption comes after production...always.


If people don't buy goods then they're not made or not sold and so people are laid off or not hired in the first place.

Consumer spending in the US accounts for 70% of GDP whether you like it or not.

America is truly a country of extremes and it amazes me that more people aren't sick of it and if they're not sick of it for themselves at least be sick of it for those who are sick of it.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #214 of 357
7/5/11 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If people don't buy goods then they're not made or not sold and so people are laid off or not hired in the first place.

If the goods aren't made there's nothing to buy. Production precedes consumption. Always.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Consumer spending in the US accounts for 70% of GDP whether you like it or not.

I didn't say it doesn't. But it's not what "drives" the economy. Investment and production do.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #215 of 357
7/5/11 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Which is exactly the opposite of giving more power to government.

Not when government is truly representative of the people.

Some of the factions involved in politics are, among others, foreign interests, big business, the people, and the government establishment. Big business is absolutely not representative of the people, it is representative of investors. Right now the government represents big business more than the people. Big business hires people when they need them and fires people when they don't. By no means does investment guarantee job growth.

Taking government out of the equation just makes the situation worse. What we need to do is fix government so that it is once again, as the founders intended, representative of the people.
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post #216 of 357
7/5/11 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I am qualified to comment on a comment that declares there is no real healthcare in the US.

You do know that was a comparative statement, right?
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post #217 of 357
7/5/11 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

What we need to do is fix government so that it is once again, as the founders intended, representative of the people.

Good luck with that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #218 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You do know that was a comparative statement, right?

Here is the original statement I replied to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon

Ever wonder why the US has no real healthcare, even when the government spends far more per citizen than they do in the UK and other places, even whilst Americans spend all they've got on insurance?

It was not a comparative statement and the whole statement contains two distinct falsehoods.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #219 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

If the goods aren't made there's nothing to buy. Production precedes consumption. Always.




I didn't say it doesn't. But it's not what "drives" the economy. Investment and production do.

So during the last ten years the median income of Americans going down by $2,500 whilst the ceo's of the fortune 500 income went up by $2.9 million last year alone, is a good example of a well functioning economy, got it.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #220 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Production precedes consumption. Always.

Demand usually precedes production. Less economic fluency, less consumption, less demand. Less production. Usually.
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post #221 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Here is the original statement I replied to:



It was not a comparative statement and the whole statement contains two distinct falsehoods.

You just loooove dealing in absolutes...

It was a comparative, exaggerated statement whether it was explicitly so or not.
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post #222 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So during the last ten years the median income of Americans going down by $2,500 whilst the ceo's of the fortune 500 income went up by $2.9 million last year alone, is a good example of a well functioning economy, got it.

But haven't you heard? Putting more money in the hands of the uber rich creates investment, which creates jobs! This is why job growth in the US has been so phenomenal compared to other countries where the CEOs didn't get huge raises. Oh, wait...
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post #223 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So during the last ten years the median income of Americans going down by $2,500 whilst the ceo's of the fortune 500 income went up by $2.9 million last year alone, is a good example of a well functioning economy, got it.



You might need a new transmission shifting gears like that.

Anyway, yes, inflation-adjusted median income in 2009 was about $49,777 but in 2001 it was $51,356 a reduction of $1579. Going back to 1999 (10 years before 2009) is was $52,587 a reduction of $2810.

Of course it was at $52,163 in 2007, so most (about 80%) of that change has happened in the last two years.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #224 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You just loooove dealing in absolutes...

Well I have to deal with what was said.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #225 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Good luck with that.

Good luck with hoping that big business represents the people's interests well.
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post #226 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But haven't you heard? Putting more money in the hands of the uber rich creates investment, which creates jobs! This is why job growth in the US has been so phenomenal compared to other countries where the CEOs didn't get huge raises. Oh, wait...

Well, when the federal government is doing everything possible to destroy jobs and scare the shit out of the private sector, you might expect investment to slow down.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #227 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Good luck with hoping that big business represents the people's interests well.

While I might hope that I don't necessarily expect it. Never said I did. Meanwhile, you seem to expect you can create good government.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #228 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well I have to deal with what was said.

Why? I have no problem dealing with what was implied.
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post #229 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, when the federal government is doing everything possible to destroy jobs and scare the shit out of the private sector, you might expect investment to slow down.

This one deserves a .
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post #230 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Why? I have no problem dealing with what was implied.

I don't try to read people's minds. If that's what the poster meant he should be more clear.

But it doesn't really matter...There is real healthcare in the US in both an absolute and a relative sense.

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post #231 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This one deserves a .

I get that you don't agree.

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post #232 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Demand usually precedes production. Less economic fluency, less consumption, less demand. Less production. Usually.

While I'm not sure what "economic fluency" means in this context, I get what I think you're trying to say.

Expected consumption (predicted demand) directs investment and production. This is true of course. But there can be all the demand in the world, but nothing happens until production happens first.

There is always a speculative aspect to investment and production. But there must be capital to invest to get the machine rolling. And while demand for some some goods and services may be lower during a recession, there is still plenty of demand for other goods and services. There is always demand it just may be that investment and production needs to be shifted toward those goods (e.g., more of necessities, etc.) and away from more luxury items.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #233 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post



You might need a new transmission shifting gears like that.

Anyway, yes, inflation-adjusted median income in 2009 was about $49,777 but in 2001 it was $51,356 a reduction of $1579. Going back to 1999 (10 years before 2009) is was $52,587 a reduction of $2810.

Of course it was at $52,163 in 2007, so most (about 80%) of that change has happened in the last two years.


So going by your figures between 2007 and 2009 80% of the median income losses occurred. Funny that, because between 2007 and 2009 Wall Street profits were up by 720%. Unemployment went up by 102% and home equity went down by 35%. That's a nice return, considering.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #234 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So going by your figures between 2007 and 2009 80% of the median income losses occurred. Funny that, because between 2007 and 2009 Wall Street profits were up by 720%.

Be very, very careful here. Profits were up so much because they were first down so much.

The Real Story Behind Those "Record" Corporate Profits


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Unemployment went up by 102% and home equity went down by 35%. That's a nice return, considering.

Yes, the side effects of the government and Fed created housing bubble booming then crashing are quite dire.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #235 of 357
7/5/11 at 6:54pm
Thread Starter 
Private investment graph shows confidence in Obama- http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=S3

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #236 of 357
7/5/11 at 7:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You just loooove dealing in absolutes...

It was a comparative, exaggerated statement whether it was explicitly so or not.

Exactly, easily justified by the fact that most Americans don't have adequate health insurance or have none. Medical bankruptcy is at over 2 million cases each year in the US and a lot of those people had insurance. California denies more than 50% of it's claims.

"45 percent of adults reported that rising costs of healthcare and declining insurance coverage prevented them from getting necessary medical care in 2007, causing them to sacrifice the health care they need."
~ http://news.injuryboard.com/report-7...oogleid=246254

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #237 of 357
7/5/11 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Exactly, easily justified by the fact that most Americans don't have adequate health insurance or have none. Medical bankruptcy is at over 2 million cases each year in the US and a lot of those people had insurance. California denies more than 50% of it's claims.

"45 percent of adults reported that rising costs of healthcare and declining insurance coverage prevented them from getting necessary medical care in 2007, causing them to sacrifice the health care they need."
~ http://news.injuryboard.com/report-7...oogleid=246254

I don't have the time to dissect these vague claims and out of context statistics. Let me just say this, I don't claim the US healthcare system is perfect or even great. In many ways it does suck. But the solution to this problem is not more government (already so heavily involved with the healthcare and health insurance markets that calling it a "free market" is simply idiotic.)

Solutions:

1. Allow health insurance to be sold across state lines.
2. Eliminate coverage mandates and premium regulations.
3. Do something to balance the paying field between employer-provided and self-purchased health insurance.

These will help tremendously.

Next, some deregulation in the healthcare products and services area would also help.

Finally, end all farm subsidies that make crappy, fattening, diabetes-inducing food cheaper.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #238 of 357
7/8/11 at 5:48am
Would You Give Up The Internet For 1 Million Dollars?

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post #239 of 357
7/8/11 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Would You Give Up The Internet For 1 Million Dollars?

Yes.-
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post #240 of 357
7/8/11 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Would You Give Up The Internet For 1 Million Dollars?

Where do I sign up?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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