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The Free Speech Thread - Page 7

post #241 of 361
Quote of the day:

Quote:
The story of the human race has been a gradual spread of specialization and exchange. Prosperity consists of getting more and more narrow in what you make and more and more diverse in what you buy. Self-sufficiency subsistence is poverty.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #242 of 361
Thread Starter 
Hahaha-

"Second, and again contrary to the error-riddled NBC story — and the demagoguing by Ted Poe (R-TX) that NBC replays without correction — the mercury in the bulbs isn’t particularly dangerous.* Even after more than 8 hours of exposure to a broken bulb, mercury levels are at most equal to eating a 6 oz can of tuna.* And that was a worst-case scenario where “every effort was made to force the mercury into the air” and the broken bulb “was disposed of in a trash can, in the room” and “entrances to the room were shut, and heating vents and windows sealed, leaving little chance for the mercury to disperse.”* More realistically, the “median of 45 breakage scenarios” compiled by Maine’s Department of Environmental Protection was “exposure to mercury … equivalent to about 1/50th of an ounce—a single nibble—of Albacore tuna!”
~ http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/0...tory-entirely/

I painted my living room recently and in the course of that broke about 5 old style bulbs. The filaments like you know are super fragile and just knocking them slightly breaks that very delicate fine coil of wire that heats up to produce light. On the other hand I didn't break a single modern bulb.

And over the last about 6 or 7 years I've been using modern bulbs I've not just never broken one, I've never had to replace one either.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #243 of 361
Thread Starter 
Goldman Sachs predicts India's and China's economies combined will be nearly three times larger than the US's by 2050, (scan down to graphs)- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...ia-863940.html
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #244 of 361
Ran across this. Thought it was funny, sad, and true all at once.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #245 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Ran across this. Thought it was funny, sad, and true all at once.

Classy.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #246 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Classy.

Indeed. I'll bet that the people at the church I attend have done more to help the poor (et al) both locally near our church and elsewhere in the world in the past year than BR and his buddies have in the past five.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #247 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Ran across this. Thought it was funny, sad, and true all at once.

There are places where this is true, and places where this is not.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #248 of 361

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #249 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Indeed. I'll bet that the people at the church I attend have done more to help the poor (et al) both locally near our church and elsewhere in the world in the past year than BR and his buddies have in the past five.

Yup. Amazing how lefties are generous with everyone else's' money.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #250 of 361
Scary Story: The State vs. Anarchists

Quote:
Beware: Should you happen to spot me on the streets of Westminster, you are exhorted to summon law enforcement immediately! That London borough’s “Counter Terrorist Focus Desk” considers me a threat to the public safety (“Anarchists should be reported, advises Westminster anti-terror police,” The Guardian, July 31).

Yes, I am an anarchist. I state this without apology, understanding that you may find it strange or even scary, or may not understand the term well. I’d like to explain myself to you, while there’s still time, before someone else tells you a scary story and urges you to assist in my apprehension.

I’m not a nihilist — someone who rejects all structure in, or institutions of, society. Nor am I an agent of chaos, who believes that life absent government would consist of ongoing, unrestrained mass rampage and wants to see that happen.

In fact, I consider myself a defender of society and agent of order, opposed to the institution most responsible for the disintegration of social institutions and the attendant orgy of looting, torture and mass murder that was the 20th century: Monopoly government, also known as “the state.”

Click the above link for the rest. A good read.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #251 of 361
Here's a good one on freedom of speech:

Missouri law bans teachers from "friending" current AND former students on Facebook

As a teacher myself, I think this is absurd. Most teachers will not friend students anyway, but FORMER students? WTF? I have several former students on my page. I use it to keep up with their lives. I take pleasure in seeing, for example, my first HS drum major being a marriage 30 year old with two children. It's great to see your students grow and eventually develop friendships with them. In fact, I just approved a friend request from a HS student of mine from 1999. Many teachers even have TWO Facebook pages...one for school/official business and another person one.

From a legal standpoint, I think this law faces a tough road ahead. It's just a matter of time until it is challenged. I think it's a clear violation of freedom of speech and freedom of association rights...one with absolutely no probable cause requirement for individuals.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #252 of 361
Maybe Napoleon Was Right:

Quote:
Napoleon believed in liberty just not for most people.

Most people, he reportedly said, are herd-cattle not capable of living as individuals in society without the external restraint of authority to keep them from abusing one another. Most men, in other words, are only kept at bay kept from committing acts of violence and fraud by the threat of violence in return.

Not by self-restraint; not because they are morally enlightened.

The prod and only the prod.

Paging: e1618978.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #253 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Maybe Napoleon Was Right:



Paging: e1618978.

Once again, MJ fails to see the irony about statements like this and religion.
post #254 of 361
Quote:
Everywhere it seems to have been taken for granted that force and violence are necessary to man's welfare upon the earth. Endless volumes have been written, and countless lives been sacrificed in an effort to prove that one form of government is better than another; but few seem seriously to have considered the proposition that all government rests on violence and force; is sustained by soldiers, policemen, and courts; and is contrary to the ideal peace and order that make for the happiness and progress of the human race.

Now and then it is even admitted that in the far-distant ages yet to come men may so far develop toward the angelic that political governments will have no need to be. This admission, like the common concept, presumes that governments are good; that their duties undertaken and performed consist in repressing the evil and the lawless, and protecting and caring for the helpless and the weak.


If the history of the state proved that governing bodies were ever formed for this purpose or filled this function, there might be some basis for the assumption that government is necessary to preserve order and to defend the weak. But the origin and evolution of the political state show quite another thing they show that the state was born in aggression, and that in all the various stages through which it has passed its essential characteristics have been preserved.


Clarence Darrow

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #255 of 361
Thread Starter 
The poor not only give double of a share of their income to charities than the rich, they don't give to grease their own wheels either- http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/05/1...-generous.html
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post #256 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The poor not only give double of a share of their income to charities than the rich, they don't give to grease their own wheels either- http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/05/1...-generous.html

Well that's interesting and all that. And while I'd hope to see all people be even more generous with their resources (time, talent and money). Let's look at this in a little different way:

The lowest income folks who top out at about $19,300 income per year give, on average, about 4.3% of their income (per year I assume). This amounts to about $830 per year at most.

The highest income folks start at around $159,000 income per year and give, on average, only about 2.1% of their income. This amounts to at least $3,300 per year (4 times as much.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #257 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well that's interesting and all that. And while I'd hope to see all people be even more generous with their resources (time, talent and money). Let's look at this in a little different way:

The lowest income folks who top out at about $19,300 income per year give, on average, about 4.3% of their income (per year I assume). This amounts to about $830 per year at most.

The highest income folks start at around $159,000 income per year and give, on average, only about 2.1% of their income. This amounts to at least $3,300 per year (4 times as much.)

Why didn't you take it further; the poor are mean and lazy because they gave four times less than the rich?

Regardless, this blows out of the water your theory that the needy can live off of the genorisity of Americans, especially given the fact that a fair part of the rich giving to charity is to lower their taxes.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #258 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Why didn't you take it further;

Because I think it is often very useful to look at things like this from a couple of perspectives. You presented one point of view which was, I assume, meant to just be left as it was and leave us all with a certain impression. I took the numbers you provided and pointed out another perspective that sheds a different light on things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

the poor are mean and lazy because they gave four times less than the rich?

Since I've made no such claim, nor even had such a thought.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Regardless, this blows out of the water your theory that the needy can live off of the genorisity of Americans, especially given the fact that a fair part of the rich giving to charity is to lower their taxes.

I don't see how. But I'd be happy to consider any logical, fact-based explanation about why you think this is so.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #259 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Because I think it is often very useful to look at things like this from a couple of perspectives. You presented one point of view which was, I assume, meant to just be left as it was and leave us all with a certain impression. I took the numbers you provided and pointed out another perspective that sheds a different light on things.




Since I've made no such claim, nor even had such a thought.




I don't see how. But I'd be happy to consider any logical, fact-based explanation about why you think this is so.

I'm thinking your you're probably a little irked that the bottom quintile gave more as a percentage of their income to charity than those declaring $159,000 a year and above.

When you take off $800 plus from someone who earns at least eight times less than the wealthy catagory you're not left with much. When you take off $3,000 from someone declaring after all deductions, including the deductions of the $3,000 there left with $159,000.

If the rich gave a ton of money to charity then I'd like to think your theory of charity providing sufficiently for the poor could work, but at 2.2% to all the charities, including those things like Haiti that happen around the world, there's clearly would be many who are left out, once you take the governments money away.
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post #260 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm thinking your you're probably a little irked that the bottom quintile gave more as a percentage of their income to charity than those declaring $159,000 a year and above.

First, my feelings about how other people give (or not) are really just that...my feelings and opinions. Do I think people should give more? Sure.

Second, it is clear that the percentage matters a lot to you and that you're irked that some people are giving at lower percentages than you deem appropriate. Or something.

But our feelings are really a red herring here. Completely irrelevant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

When you take off $800 plus from someone who earns at least eight times less than the wealthy catagory you're not left with much. When you take off $3,000 from someone declaring after all deductions, including the deductions of the $3,000 there left with $159,000.

I understand that 4.3% is a larger percentage than 2.1%. I applaud those with lower incomes giving 4.3% of their income to charities. I applaud those who give a lower percentage for giving something and I would hope to see them give a higher percentage if they're so moved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If the rich gave a ton of money to charity then I'd like to think your theory of charity providing sufficiently for the poor could work, but at 2.2% to all the charities, including those things like Haiti that happen around the world, there's clearly would be many who are left out, once you take the governments money away.

Of course you're assuming that with lower tax burdens* all these percentages would stay the same, that incomes would be the same, that the number of higher income people would be the same.

Do you see all possible flaws here?

*There are a lot of people I know who give much less to charities because they know the government is covering some particular problem. I've had this openly stated to me.

As I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970

I'd be happy to consider any logical, fact-based explanation about why you think this is so.

Let me know when you have one. Thanks.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #261 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

First, my feelings about how other people give (or not) are really just that...my feelings and opinions. Do I think people should give more? Sure.

Second, it is clear that the percentage matters a lot to you and that you're irked that some people are giving at lower percentages than you deem appropriate. Or something.

But our feelings are really a red herring here. Completely irrelevant.




I understand that 4.3% is a larger percentage than 2.1%. I applaud those with lower incomes giving 4.3% of their income to charities. I applaud those who give a lower percentage for giving something and I would hope to see them give a higher percentage if they're so moved.




Of course you're assuming that with lower tax burdens all these percentages would stay the same, that incomes would be the same, that the number of higher income people would be the same.

Do you see all possible flaws here?

As I said:



Let me know when you have one. Thanks.

I'm not at all surprised by these percentages. Sure the rich give more, but in my experience in life it's the people without much who give back the most. They tend to pay fairly what you ask in business and they give because they know how precious what they give is.
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post #262 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm not at all surprised by these percentages. Sure the rich give more, but in my experience in life it's the people without much who give back the most. They tend to pay fairly what you ask in business and they give because they know how precious what they give is.

We should also note that people in that lowest income band are likely not paying income tax and may even be getting tax rebates of some kind. We could draw a correlation between lower income tax rates and higher charitable giving as a percentage of income.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #263 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

We should also note that people in that lowest income band are likely not paying income tax and may even be getting tax rebates of some kind. We could draw a correlation between lower income tax rates and higher charitable giving as a percentage of income.

I think we can both agree that the rich have got a whole lot richer over say the last 20 years. Wouldn't it be nice to see how much more they've given to charity as this groups income has risen?

If you can find the data please post. I suspect it will be quite illuminating.

Just so you're prepared, I'm expecting to hear how the wealthy give anonamously!
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post #264 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I think we can both agree that the rich have got a whole lot richer over say the last 20 years. Wouldn't it be nice to see how much more they've given to charity as this groups income has risen?

If you can find the data please post. I suspect it will be quite illuminating.

I'll leave the data search to you since you are most concerned with the question.

But, if their giving percentage has remained the same, but their incomes have risen, then we know they're giving more. This is simple math.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #265 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'll leave the data search to you since you are most concerned with the question.

But, if their giving percentage has remained the same, but their incomes have risen, then we know they're giving more. This is simple math.

It sure would be nice to know...

I'm having a cigarrette and some wine, so a long googling session is out for now. Would be great if you (or all the other people reading this thread ) could come up with something.....
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post #266 of 361
Thread Starter 
Trump! I see you here.. care to google?
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post #267 of 361
Thread Starter 
Ok, it's little old me with an iphone cig and wine on a wet scottish night and i did me a googleing, but it was brief and limited-

"NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- For charities hoping to land a big gift from one of America's wealthiest individuals, 2010 was a very bad year.

The 54 most generous donors in America gave only $3.3 billion in 2010, the smallest sum since 2000, according to a ranking compiled by The Chronicle of Philanthropy and Slate magazine."
~ http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/06/news...ifts/index.htm

And yet the paid less in taxes as a percentage of their income and earn't billions more!!!!!!


At least Steve Jobs of Apple computing gave the minors (deliberately wrong spelling) an ipod touch. But we know his tax amnesty from overseas earnings would make up the difference, he's so cool.
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post #268 of 361
Thread Starter 
Mj i know you're out there! You're always out there
(joke)

Care to respond how when the rich pay less in taxes and earn more they give lesss to charity?
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post #269 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It sure would be nice to know...

I'm having a cigarrette and some wine, so a long googling session is out for now. Would be great if you (or all the other people reading this thread ) could come up with something.....

You're expecting others to do your research for questions you're interested in? For free?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #270 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You're expecting others to do your research for questions you're interested in? For free?

Yeah you make a good point... us poor people should pay to hear how the truth shall set us free. That's the Libertarian way, ain't that right?

Regardless, charitable (i say from rainy scottish night) you are NOT;(
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post #271 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yeah you make a good point... us poor people should pay to hear how the truth shall set us free. That's the Libertarian way, ain't that right?

FYI, everything* on mises.org is free (licensed under Creative Commons). And that's just one libertarian website.

*well...ALMOST everything. They do have a store, but they also offer a substantial library of publications, podcasts, and other resources for free.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #272 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by hands sandon View Post

yeah you make a good point... Us poor people should pay to hear how the truth shall set us free. That's the libertarian way, ain't that right?

Regardless, charitable (i say from rainy scottish night) you are not;(

wtf?

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #273 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

wtf?

Yeah you cant pull out the info to make your case. Go figure Libertarian.
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post #274 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

FYI, everything* on mises.org is free (licensed under Creative Commons). And that's just one libertarian website.

*well...ALMOST everything. They do have a store, but they also offer a substantial library of publications, podcasts, and other resources for free.


Come on jazzguru don't denialist this...pull out some info to explain how when taxes go down for the rich and they earn more they give less to charity.
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post #275 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yeah you cant pull out the info to make your case. Go figure Libertarian.

Is this fucking bizzaro world or something?

You're the one making the claims and asking the question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon

I think we can both agree that the rich have got a whole lot richer over say the last 20 years. Wouldn't it be nice to see how much more they've given to charity as this groups income has risen?

If you can find the data please post. I suspect it will be quite illuminating.

I don't really care. It's not a question that I'm overly concerned with, but you seem to be.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #276 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Just so you're prepared, I'm expecting to hear how the wealthy give anonamously!

Well...I assume many do. But this is just an excuse from your point of view.

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post #277 of 361
But more than that, there are plenty of examples of some of the wealthiest people ever (Buffett, Gates, Carnegie, Ford, Rockefeller) being extremely generous with their fortunes.

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post #278 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Is this fucking bizzaro world or something?

You're the one making the claims and asking the question:



I don't really care. It's not a question that I'm overly concerned with, but you seem to be.

Oh bloody hell wonderfull, you want the poor to rely on these people and you're not even interested in whether they give a share of their income, based on your own argument, that if their taxes were lowered they'd give more!!!

Eeeek, how profoundly you care about the effects of your own beliefs.
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post #279 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Oh bloody hell wonderfull, you want the poor to rely on these people and you're not even interested in whether they give a share of their income based on your own arguement that if their taxes were lowered they'd give more!!!

Eeeek, how profoundly you care about the effects of your own beliefs.

Ohh...so your trolling. I got it now. I'm not playing. Go back to your wine and cigarettes.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #280 of 361
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ohh...so your trolling. I got it now. I'm not playing. Go back to your wine and cigarettes.

You lost.
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