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After 6 weeks of "real usage," Mossberg stands by his initial verdict of the iPhone 4 - Page 4

post #121 of 145
7/30/10 at 4:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Uhh, name one other phone that loses 24 db simply by touching one small spot with a fingertip. A small spot that is in a place many people naturally hold the phone.

Which other phones did Consumer Reports test for that phenomenon? Oh, none? That's exactly the point, how can you 'ding' one phone for something you didn't even test other phones for. However, the Samsung Galaxy S, which is demonstrated to lose signal from being touched by a single finger, in a spot where your index finger is likely to rest during a call, is a likely candidate. It's entirely possible that every phone has a "spot" that causes a big signal drop from a single finger touch, but Consumer Reports isn't actually trying to determine that, because, really, other than a handful of self-described geeks, no one cares about any other phones, so Consumer Reports wouldn't get any publicity for actually trying to find out.

Unfortunately, people seem so emotionally invested in the image they have of Consumer Reports, that any excuse will be made for them. Meanwhile, this is what intelligent consumers do (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggbrigette View Post

My boyfriend subscribes to Consumer Reports and treats their reviews like they are the Bible.

I don't usually agree with their reports so this can be the cause of many arguments when buying stuff (one of the latest ones was about which Energy Star washing machine to get)

I will, instead, go to as many review sites as I can to find out what people who bought the products actually say about them. A lot of times a product starts out great and then falls apart sooner than other brands.

Consumer Reports tests things, but do they use them long term in a real life situation? I don't think they do, so I would rather listen to a review from someone who has had the product and takes the time to submit a review without getting anything for it at all. When I was looking at washing machine reviews, people would come back and edit their initial review if the product broke or they had repair problems after owning for a while. ...
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post #122 of 145
7/30/10 at 4:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Obviously, they weren't testing antennas on any phones, or they would have noticed this issue previously, on any number of phones. (Obviously, it isn't that hard to reproduce on most of them.) Obviously, they focused on this phone because grandstanding on the issue would garner them lots of publicity. Obviously, they did not behave professionally. Obviously, they aren't scientists.

The only counter argument that can even be attempted is essentially that Consumer Reports has never been an objective testing organization, so that throwing in an extra factor when they don't get the results they expect in their ratings is standard practice with them. Consumer Reports exists to promote and perpetuate itself, not to provide honest, objective reviews of products.

Do you behave like this in real life as well? I have no interest in continuing a debate with someone who acts like this.
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post #123 of 145
7/30/10 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Do you behave like this in real life as well? I have no interest in continuing a debate with someone who acts like this.

Actually, you have no interest in continuing a debate in which you know you are wrong but don't want to admit it. Consumer Reports simply is not a reliable reviewer of any product.
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post #124 of 145
7/30/10 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Which other phones did Consumer Reports test for that phenomenon? Oh, none? That's exactly the point, how can you 'ding' one phone for something you didn't even test other phones for. However, the Samsung Galaxy S, which is demonstrated to lose signal from being touched by a single finger, in a spot where your index finger is likely to rest during a call, is a likely candidate. It's entirely possible that every phone has a "spot" that causes a big signal drop from a single finger touch, but Consumer Reports isn't actually trying to determine that, because, really, other than a handful of self-described geeks, no one cares about any other phones, so Consumer Reports wouldn't get any publicity for actually trying to find out.

Unfortunately, people seem so emotionally invested in the image they have of Consumer Reports, that any excuse will be made for them. Meanwhile, this is what intelligent consumers do (emphasis mine):

Uh, the iPhone is the only phone that has 2 external antennas that can easily be bridged by naturally holding the phone. This isn't just antenna attenuation common to all phones, which Apple wants to us believe. This is a new issue unique to only the iPhone.

Intelligent consumers don't blindly worship a company and it's products. I love Apple products. But I realize this is a design flaw unique to the iPhone. And I don't like the way Apple is trying to hide the issue by poorly attempting to prove other phones have this exact same issue.

Also, show us some independent tests, not some random, unknown youtube video, that demonstrates how the Samsung Galaxy S has the same reception issue caused by a fingertip.
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post #125 of 145
7/30/10 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Consumer Reports simply is not a reliable reviewer of any product.

That's your opinion. Many people think otherwise. I think Consumer Reports is a valuable tool, along with other resources to help with a purchase of a product. And I think Consumer Reports is spot on in reporting this important and unique issue with the iPhone 4.
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post #126 of 145
7/30/10 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

... Also, show us some independent tests, not some random, unknown youtube video, that demonstrates how the Samsung Galaxy S has the same reception issue caused by a fingertip.

Yes, that's exactly the point. No one is actually testing to verify this on other phones, least of all Consumer Reports. So, what does that tell you about the value of their testing?
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post #127 of 145
7/30/10 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

That's your opinion. Many people think otherwise. I think Consumer Reports is a valuable tool, along with other resources to help with a purchase of a product. ...

It's not, it's next to worthless, an artifact of an age where information was hard to come by and people were desperate for little charts that told them what to buy. They are really nothing but a carefully crafted image. Real information about the quality of products is not to be found within their pages.
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post #128 of 145
7/30/10 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Yes, that's exactly the point. No one is actually testing to verify this on other phones, least of all Consumer Reports. So, what does that tell you about the value of their testing?

You are the one thats claiming the Samsung has the same issue. Show us the proof!! Also, the Samsung does not have external antennas that can be easily bridged by naturally holding the phone. That is the unique issue and flaw with the iPhone 4.
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post #129 of 145
7/30/10 at 6:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

It's not, it's next to worthless, an artifact of an age where information was hard to come by and people were desperate for little charts that told them what to buy. They are really nothing but a carefully crafted image. Real information about the quality of products is not to be found within their pages.

Yes, we already heard your *opinion*. To each their own. Many other people, including myself, find CR is an excellent tool and independent source for researching products. I don't blindly accept their conclusions. But it's a valuable piece of my research.
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post #130 of 145
7/30/10 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

You are the one thats claiming the Samsung has the same issue. Show us the proof!! Also, the Samsung does not have external antennas that can be easily bridged by naturally holding the phone. That is the unique issue and flaw with the iPhone 4.

We've all seen the video of this happening. They thing about the external antenna is a straw man. Why does it matter if the antenna is internal or external when the signal drops? It doesn't, it's the same effect. We could take any of the phones where this is demonstrated and pick out some feature of it's antenna design that is unique to it, and say, see, it's the only one with this feature where the signal drops. Fixating on an issue on a single phone just means you aren't interested in honest discussion, but in bashing that phone.

Which is exactly where Consumer Reports went wrong on this issue. They weren't interested in honestly evaluating phones, they were interested in grabbing headlines. But, the main problem, with all of their reviews, is that they use arbitrary criteria for rating them: criteria that often have no relevance, but look good in a chart. For example, they used to (may still) ding bicycles for having quick release wheels because the wheel would come off if the lever was released. Well, yeah, that's how they are supposed to work. Instead of recognizing this, they would recommend some piece of junk bike, inferior in all ways, including that it did not have quick release wheels. Duh!
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post #131 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Yes, we already heard your *opinion*. To each their own. Many other people, including myself, find CR is an excellent tool and independent source for researching products. I don't blindly accept their conclusions. But it's a valuable piece of my research.

If it wasn't obvious already, you're wasting your time. We already know that from his point of view, if you don't agree with him, you are an idiot and you are not rational.
Please don't be insane.
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post #132 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

We've all seen the video of this happening. They thing about the external antenna is a straw man. Why does it matter if the antenna is internal or external when the signal drops? It doesn't, it's the same effect. We could take any of the phones where this is demonstrated and pick out some feature of it's antenna design that is unique to it, and say, see, it's the only one with this feature where the signal drops. Fixating on an issue on a single phone just means you aren't interested in honest discussion, but in bashing that phone.

A flawed *external* antenna design has everything to do with the iPhone 4. All phones have varying degrees of antenna attenuation when you grip them in certain ways. But the iPhone 4 has an extra issue. It has an antenna bridging issue (because of using external antennas separated by only a seam) in addition to the common antenna attenuation. Apple's is poorly trying to confuse the consumers by making it look like the issue is just antenna attenuation common with all phones. But most, if not all, phones do not drop 24 db by *naturally* holding the phone. Except the iPhone 4. That is the issue.

Yes, some of CR testing methodology might not be the best for every customer and every product. But their independent testing provides me and many other people with valuable information.
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post #133 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

If it wasn't obvious already, you're wasting your time. We already know that from his point of view, if you don't agree with him, you are an idiot and you are not rational.

LOL, so true !!! I guess I am wasting my time.
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post #134 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

LOL, so true !!! I guess I am wasting my time.

Have at it, if arguing with a concrete wall gives you some jollies. Pretty soon you will realize that unless you completely agree, nothing you say can possibly be respected even in the slightest.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #135 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Blah blah blah... external antenna ... blah blah blah

So, explain why, if the signal drops, it matters whether the antenna is internal or external, when what's measured is the same phenomenon. Oh, right, it doesn't matter because it's the same phenomenon.
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post #136 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Have at it, if arguing with a concrete wall gives you some jollies. Pretty soon you will realize that unless you completely agree, nothing you say can possibly be respected even in the slightest.

Well, if you want your opinion to be respected, it might help if you had some actual argument to support it, you know, something other than, "Consumer Reports' reviews have never been objective, so why does it matter now?" or, "Consumer reports is a respected institution."
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post #137 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

So, explain why, if the signal drops, it matters whether the antenna is internal or external, when what's measured is the same phenomenon. Oh, right, it doesn't matter because it's the same phenomenon.

This will be my last response to the stone wall (anonymouse) on this subject. LOL. Other phones don't drop 24 db by *naturally* holding the phone. Of course Apple's overly big hand, wrapped unnaturally & tightly around the phone demos, and only showing bars, not db, will like you to believe otherwise. lol
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post #138 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, if you want your opinion to be respected, it might help if you had some actual argument to support it, you know, something other than, "Consumer Reports' reviews have never been objective, so why does it matter now?" or, "Consumer reports is a respected institution."

Once someone calls everyone who disagrees with their view irrational or an idiot, they have voluntarily seceded from the debate. You did just that, so your questions are no longer of any consequence. They are mere provocations.
Please don't be insane.
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post #139 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

This will be my last response to the stone wall (anonymouse) on this subject. LOL. Other phones don't drop 24 db by *naturally* holding the phone. Of course Apple's overly big hand, wrapped unnaturally & tightly around the phone demos, and only showing bars, not db, will like you to believe otherwise. lol

Actually, the most you can state is that other phones have not been determined to drop 24dB in signal by being held. Since no one cares about other phones, no one has bothered to do extensive testing to determine this, or at least no one is publishing the data, if they have.
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post #140 of 145
7/30/10 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Once someone calls everyone who disagrees with their view irrational or an idiot, they have voluntarily seceded from the debate. You did just that, so your questions are no longer of any consequence. They are mere provocations.

Actually, this is another instance of your repeated misinterpretation and misrepresentation of what I've written. I understand that it's a certain rhetorical technique to do so, but it doesn't exactly bolster your arguments.
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post #141 of 145
7/30/10 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Actually, this is another instance of your repeated misinterpretation and misrepresentation of what I've written. I understand that it's a certain rhetorical technique to do so, but it doesn't exactly bolster your arguments.

No, this is a case where directly quoting your words is feebly argued to be a "misrepresentation." Several people have given up discussing this with you because of this insulting, condescending attitude. Learn to live with what you say, or learn to not say things you can't live with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I really can't see how any rational, intelligent person can think that Consumer Reports' does not obviously have a credibility problem, with all of their reviews.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #142 of 145
7/30/10 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Actually, the most you can state is that other phones have not been determined to drop 24dB in signal by being held. Since no one cares about other phones, no one has bothered to do extensive testing to determine this, or at least no one is publishing the data, if they have.

According to the infamous AnandTech results which are now being stated as unwavering fact for all iPhone 4s instead of their results from their devices, the iPhone 4 dropped 24.6 dB and the HTC Nexus One dropped 17.7 dB. That is a difference of 6.9 dB.

However, according to AnandTechs follow up report of the iPhone with iOS 4.0.1 it can hold a call well below the dB level of other phones. The antenna design is such an improvement that calls were held at −121 dB, or 8 dB lower than other phones can even report. If the Nexus One is dropping calls by −113 dB that would mean that the iPhone 4 would be the superior choice no matter you slice it.

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post #143 of 145
7/30/10 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

No, this is a case where directly quoting your words is feebly argued to be a "misrepresentation." Several people have given up discussing this with you because of this insulting, condescending attitude. Learn to live with what you say, or learn to not say things you can't live with.

So, a direct quote of my words says that, "I can't see how any rational, intelligent person can think..." And I really can't. You can choose to interpret that as me calling you an irrational idiot. Or you can take it at it's face value and offer some rational argument that will make me see why their testing and rating process isn't arbitrary and irrelevant, as well as fundamentally flawed. And, this isn't about their iP4 testing, this is about all their testing, about their basic methodology, about how they even decide what should be tested to determine product quality. I think they fail across the board in properly conducting any of these activities.
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post #144 of 145
7/30/10 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

According to the infamous AnandTech results which are now being stated as unwavering fact for all iPhone 4s instead of their results from their devices, the iPhone 4 dropped 24.6 dB and the HTC Nexus One dropped 17.7 dB. That is a difference of 6.9 dB.

Good points regarding that particular comparison. I was, however, making a broader point that ski1 is making statements that other phones don't show a signal loss of >=24.6dB when in fact he has no basis for asserting that, generally.

It is interesting to note in this comparison, as you rightly point out, that the 17.7dB signal drop suffered by the Nexus One may actually be more significant than the 24.6dB maximum drop of the iP4. This tends to indicate that the absolute signal drop value is actually irrelevant to the discussion. The important factor would rather seem to be, what is the lowest signal value with which, when held, a phone can actually make a call. A more complicated analysis, but really the only one that is meaningful.
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post #145 of 145
7/30/10 at 10:49am
Oh good grief. Learn to live with what you say. I am done.
Please don't be insane.
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