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Ending ObamaCare; Two-Track Effort

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 
Some hope on the horizon, by either reducing its funding or eventually having SCOTUS overturn it directly based on state challenge =>

GOP eyes choking health law funding
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/40536
Republicans may not be able to repeal the Democrats’ health care reform law next year, but they’re eyeing the next best thing: Deny the Obama administration the money it needs to implement the law. GOP candidates across the country are running on a promise to repeal the law. But simply winning the House and the Senate wouldn’t get them there; they’d need to corral two-thirds majorities to overcome what would be an almost certain veto from President Barack Obama. Resigned to that fact, Republicans are now readying a campaign trail message that voters should grant them the power of Congress’s purse strings so that they can choke off funding for the law.

Va. health care reform lawsuit clears 1st hurdle
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...rs-1st-hurdle/
RICHMOND (AP) — Virginia's lawsuit challenging the Obama administration's health care reform law cleared its first legal hurdle Monday as a federal judge ruled the law raises a host of complex constitutional issues. U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson's decision stemmed from Virginia Attorney General Kenneth T. Cuccinelli II's claims that Congress exceeded its authority under the Constitution's Commerce Clause by requiring citizens to buy health insurance or pay a penalty.

There is even a third track, which might be pursued later on upon the culmination of a GOP takeover of the House and Senate, wherein mandatory balanced budget amendments at the state level could gut the lion's share of ObamaCare forced upon states; thus individual states could reject all or in part the key elements of ObamaCare's unfunded mandates passed on to the state legislatures in preference to their own balanced budget amendments. I've actually read accounts that this potential track is the most optimistic of all three, in light of Democrats now abandoning their advocacy for ObamaCare!
post #2 of 51
Why do you want to end RepublicanHealthCarePlanCirca1994Care? Oh yeah, because a Democrat passed it. DUH.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #3 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Why do you want to end...

Because this nation cannot afford ObamaCare...
post #4 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Why do you want to end RepublicanHealthCarePlanCirca1994Care? Oh yeah, because a Democrat passed it. DUH.

Why do you insist that the ProposedByACoupleOfModerateToLiberalRepublicansHea lthCarePlanCirca1994Care* was a categorically a "Republican plan?" Oh yeah, because it sounds like people who are opposed to ObamaCare are being hypocritical. DUH.

Far more importantly: *What makes to you think that the plan to which you refer was a good plan?

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post #5 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Because this nation cannot afford ObamaCare...

The nation cannot afford the Bush Tax Cuts. The CBO has said obamacare is budget neutral. The tax cuts have done nothing for the economy and costs us trillions.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #6 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The nation cannot afford the Bush Tax Cuts.

Do you really understand what a tax cut is? For the sake of your intellectual growth, a TAX CUT means the government takes less of your money. Thus your point, "The nation cannot afford..." in reference to tax cuts is wrong, in that the money first belongs to the people who earned it, not the government that steals it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The CBO has said obamacare is budget neutral.

Even liberal democrats disbelieved that "budget neutral" garbage... it is not true.

CBO: Obamacare Would Cost Over $2 Trillion
BY JEFFREY H. ANDERSON
March 18, 2010 6:36 PM
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...ver-2-trillion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The tax cuts have done nothing for the economy and costs us trillions.

Before you make unintended comedy here you should really read about what you speak; the 2001 Economic Growth and Recovery Tax Act (what you casually refer to as the Bush "tax cuts") were in response to the recession of 2000; specifically, after the 2001 initial tax cuts, the annual growth rate went from 0.3% in 2001 to 2.5% in 2002. By 2004, GDP growth was the highest in 20 years.
Source:
http://taxesandgrowth.ncpa.org/news/...x-cuts-working
post #7 of 51
Yeah...I'm betting this turns out a bit like the original estimates for Medicare...that were off by about an order of magnitude...too low.

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post #8 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Do you really understand what a tax cut is? For the sake of your intellectual growth, a TAX CUT means the government takes less of your money. Thus your point, "The nation cannot afford..." in reference to tax cuts is wrong, in that the money first belongs to the people who earned it, not the government that steals it.



I think you should go to Nigeria for a few weeks to investigate the fantastic achievements in infrastructure, healthcare, energy research, policing and education attainable in a society where the government "steals" nothing in taxes.

I have no moral problem in paying taxes to the benefit of the common good.

In Denmark the basic rate of tax is more than 40%.

Everyone complains.

And every summer everyone picks the kids up from the $200-a-term playschool and drives to the summerhouse to go fishing for most of July.
post #9 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post


There are plenty of economists who believe the Bush Tax cuts have been a disaster and need to be cut in order to help cut the deficit.

These are top economists with PhDs in this article. Would you laugh in their face?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...073004758.html
post #10 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I think you should go to Nigeria for a few weeks to investigate the fantastic achievements in infrastructure, healthcare, energy research, policing and education attainable in a society where the government "steals" nothing in taxes.

Why you surfacing Nigeria? Is that our new national model?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

II have no moral problem in paying taxes to the benefit of the common good.

Neither do most Americans. Trouble is, taxes today are discriminatory, penalize incentive, and unequally applied. Moreover, taxes are increasing and drain the investment dollars private firms would typically spend for investment and jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

In Denmark the basic rate of tax is more than 40%.

If you're a fan of big government go to Denmark! That is not, however, our model. Our system is based on freedom within a capitalistic market. I have no interest in the growth of the government since it fails the individual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

... there are plenty of economists who believe the Bush Tax cuts have been a disaster...

As big a disaster as the stimulus that yielded 10% unemployment and $3 trillion in debt?
post #11 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Educate yourself, and stop being a moronic punk. there are plenty of economists who believe the Bush Tax cuts have been a disaster and need to be cut in order to help cut the deficit.

That doesn't mean they are right.

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post #12 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Why you surfacing Nigeria? Is that our new national model?

He is because big-government liberals love to pretend that the world is full of stark (and false) binary choices like:

- no taxes at all and Nigerian like existence, or
- lots of taxes, massive government doing almost everything, running massive deficits, paying for tons of things whether it should or not and finding ways to do even more

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #13 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Educate yourself, and stop being a moronic punk. there are plenty of economists who believe the Bush Tax cuts have been a disaster and need to be cut in order to help cut the deficit.

These are top economists with PhDs in this article. Would you laugh in their face?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...073004758.html

tonton when someone bolds a specific part of a quote they are responding to that part. So go back and type a more appropriate reply.
post #14 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

If you're a fan of big government go to Denmark!

I live there. I'm not here because I'm "a fan of big government." I am here, in part, because of the quality of life which is a) better than that in America and b) paid for by the exorbitant taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Neither do most Americans. Trouble is, taxes today are discriminatory, penalize incentive, and unequally applied. Moreover, taxes are increasing and drain the investment dollars private firms would typically spend for investment and jobs.

This doesn't happen in Denmark, which is a better place to do business than the USA and where research and innovation are one of the largest streams of national revenue.

So perhaps you should follow the Danish model? You would be paying at least 40% on everything you earn, but since you're suddenly claiming that you have no moral problem with taxes, that should be OK for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

He is because big-government liberals love to pretend that the world is full of stark (and false) binary choices

Like "you're with us or you're with the terrorists." And "you can be pro-life or support murdering the unborn." Or "You can be in favour of Barack Obama's health care reforms or you can oppose this Stalinisitc power grab designed to bring America to its knees through forced abortions, euthanasia of spastics, sending old people to the ovens and taxes which must be paid on penalty of life imprisonment in a rape camp."
post #15 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Why you surfacing Nigeria? Is that our new national model?



Neither do most Americans. Trouble is, taxes today are discriminatory, penalize incentive, and unequally applied. Moreover, taxes are increasing and drain the investment dollars private firms would typically spend for investment and jobs.



If you're a fan of big government go to Denmark! That is not, however, our model. Our system is based on freedom within a capitalistic market. I have no interest in the growth of the government since it fails the individual.



As big a disaster as the stimulus that yielded 10% unemployment and $3 trillion in debt?


I hate to remind you but who approved the first stimulus package because the economy was already sliding into the dumpster?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23143814/

Quote:
Bush signs stimulus package into law
Rebates of $300 to $1,200 go out beginning in May
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #16 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Like "you're with us or you're with the terrorists."

Exactly.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #17 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I live there. I'm not here because I'm "a fan of big government." I am here, in part, because of the quality of life which is a) better than that in America and b) paid for by the exorbitant taxes.



This doesn't happen in Denmark, which is a better place to do business than the USA and where research and innovation are one of the largest streams of national revenue.

So perhaps you should follow the Danish model? You would be paying at least 40% on everything you earn, but since you're suddenly claiming that you have no moral problem with taxes, that should be OK for you.



Like "you're with us or you're with the terrorists." And "you can be pro-life or support murdering the unborn." Or "You can be in favour of Barack Obama's health care reforms or you can oppose this Stalinisitc power grab designed to bring America to its knees through forced abortions, euthanasia of spastics, sending old people to the ovens and taxes which must be paid on penalty of life imprisonment in a rape camp."

We cannot be like Denmark. What works (according to the left) in Denmark will not work in America.
post #18 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I hate to remind you but who approved the first stimulus package because the economy was already sliding into the dumpster?]

And conservatives were against that too! Your point? Governments cannot spend their way out of a recession; it has never happened and never will.

Question for jimmac = You liberals like to bandy about Obama's stimulus as creating millions of jobs., Can you point to one? Can you cite a single long term private sector job created directly from Obama's stimulus? Something lasting that a worker can pay a mortgage with, and depend on for years? A single example?
post #19 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Common Man View Post

We cannot be like Denmark. What works (according to the left) in Denmark will not work in America.

Because we have a bunch of selfish jerkbags who call themselves conservatives in this country who won't allow such a system to work here.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #20 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Because we have a bunch of selfish jerkbags...[/B]

Gotta love it when those on the left show us all how civilized discussion is supposed to happen.

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post #21 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Because we have a bunch of selfish jerkbags who call themselves conservatives in this country who won't allow such a system to work here.

There are more people in NYC than in Denmark. A Denmark model isn't relevant to the US.
post #22 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Common Man View Post

There are more people in NYC than in Denmark. A Denmark model isn't relevant to the US.

From the ol' school of " I'm just right and you're just wrong "
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #23 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

And conservatives were against that too! Your point? Governments cannot spend their way out of a recession; it has never happened and never will.

Question for jimmac = You liberals like to bandy about Obama's stimulus as creating millions of jobs., Can you point to one? Can you cite a single long term private sector job created directly from Obama's stimulus? Something lasting that a worker can pay a mortgage with, and depend on for years? A single example?

My point is once again trying to pin all of this on Obama is just stupid and dishonest.

How do you know that if they had done nothing we wouldn't be in a depression right now? A lot of economists say that. Are you as smart as them?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #24 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

From the ol' school of " I'm just right and you're just wrong "

I think you will see what the American people think of this come November.
post #25 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Common Man View Post

I think you will see what the American people think of this come November.

And if you're wrong, if it's not all that you might hope it to be what will you do then?

So tell me what different approach will the Republicans use from Bush's previous policies.

I've asked you a couple of times now.
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post #26 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

My point is once again trying to pin all of this on Obama is just stupid and dishonest.

Pin it on Obama? Let's take a look okay... In case you're curious what ObamaCare looks like the staff of the Joint Economic Committee compiled a flowchart =>


http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press..._hc_chart.html

In addition to capturing the massive expansion of government and the overwhelming complexity of new regulations and taxes, the chart portrays:

=> $569 billion in higher taxes;
=> $529 billion in cuts to Medicare;
=> Swelling of the ranks of Medicaid by 16 million;
=> 17 major insurance mandates; and
=> The creation of two new bureaucracies with powers to impose future rationing: the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute and the Independent Payments Advisory Board
.
post #27 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Pin it on Obama? Let's take a look okay... In case you're curious what ObamaCare looks like the staff of the Joint Economic Committee compiled a flowchart =>


http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press..._hc_chart.html

In addition to capturing the massive expansion of government and the overwhelming complexity of new regulations and taxes, the chart portrays:

=> $569 billion in higher taxes;
=> $529 billion in cuts to Medicare;
=> Swelling of the ranks of Medicaid by 16 million;
=> 17 major insurance mandates; and
=> The creation of two new bureaucracies with powers to impose future rationing: the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute and the Independent Payments Advisory Board
.

Sorry smarty pants but you forgot to include the previous page of that game on which this one is based.
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post #28 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

How do you know that if they had done nothing we wouldn't be in a depression right now?

And how do you know we would have been?

Oh wait! I know! Paul Krugman told you. Or a guy you work with who you really respect said...

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post #29 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Sorry smarty pants but you forgot to include the previous page of that game on which this one is based.

Jeopardy?
post #30 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

That doesn't mean they are right.

In my post I'm not claiming they are right, or wrong, just that the argument is not simple.

I'd love to know how you know better than an Ivy League PhD who has sat as Vice Chair on the Federal Reserve Board.

It's this type of insolence to the fact that there are highly respected Economists who disagree with you that makes you seem like you have only a statement, and not an argument at all.
post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In my post I'm not claiming they are right, or wrong, just that the argument is not simple.

I agree that the argument isn't always that simple. But your refrain is a common one. Jimmac loves to use it. "Huh. A bunch of economists says so. Doh." I'm trying to encourage people to think beyond the talking heads and to use their own. Use logic and reason. It's actually not that hard to think some of this stuff through.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'd love to know how you know better than an Ivy League PhD who has sat as Vice Chair on the Federal Reserve Board.

Another common jimmac-ism. Are you sure you're not him?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's this type of insolence to the fact that there are highly respected Economists who disagree with you that makes you seem like you have only a statement, and not an argument at all.

Sorry if my questioning my self or media appointed intellectual betters bothers you. The fact is there's a lot of bullshit "economics" masquerading as actual economic reasoning out their in the press. Much of it is spouted in the service of whatever the current political regime is doing and calling for. It is rarely questioned and often taken at face value despite the sometimes obvious contradictions and fallacies contained within it. What you (and many others) fail to realize is that a substantial portion of what is presented as economic "fact" and "expertise" and opinion in the media today is based primarily on Kenyesianism, which is simply flawed to its core.

Sorry if I refuse to be a sheeple.

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post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

tonton when someone bolds a specific part of a quote they are responding to that part. So go back and type a more appropriate reply.

I didn't see the bold, perhaps because I'm incredulous that you're mocking an indisputable fact.
post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm trying to encourage people to think beyond the talking heads and to use their own. Use logic and reason. It's actually not that hard to think some of this stuff through.

Oh, shut up. You're not trying to "encourage" anything. I'd like to see some of your logic and reason that disputes these opinions. But you never show more than your own unsupported "reason" and claim it's based on common sense.

I tell you again. Look at the last 30 years. Reaganomics has failed (so far).

The theory that cutting taxes is a magic pill that increases revenue is a failed theory, in the case of the Bush Tax cuts, according to these economists, and also in my opinion, which is supported by these economists. Get over it, and point out some articles from economists who support your opinion, instead of doing nothing short of calling me an idiot for not just "knowing" whatever conjecture I should have "known".
post #34 of 51
Cutting taxes to fix budgetary problems is like cutting out two or three working days to cut your transportation costs. It's spending on the luxury of being lazy.

Taxes are the "work" that we do for the country to be able to support the budget. But just like overworking can have negative consequences (burn out, social and family problems), over-taxation can have negative consequences. But deliberately not working enough to support the family or deliberately not taxing enough to support the budget, can be a lot worse.
post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh, shut up.

No. You shut up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh, shut up. You're not trying to "encourage" anything. I'd like to see some of your logic and reason that disputes these opinions.

I've provided it many times. That you fail to see it is not my fault.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton;16 89376

I tellyou again. Look at the last 30 years. Reaganomics has failed (so far).

Yes, you have shared this opinion quite frequently. Unsupported by any reason or evidence mind you, but that doesn't appear to stop you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The theory that cutting taxes is a magic pill that increases revenue

The fact that you characterize it in this way demonstrates your lack of understanding of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

and also in my opinion, which is supported by these economists.

So, like jimmac (et al), you came to your conclusions and then you found someone that agrees with you. Bully for you!

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post #36 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Cutting taxes to fix budgetary problems is like cutting out two or three working days to cut your transportation costs. It's spending on the luxury of being lazy.

Wrong example! Increasing taxes on the wealthy chew up investment potential that would otherwise go to new jobs or maintaining existing ones. Once the existing Bush taxes end unemployment will increase as investment potential dries up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Taxes are the "work" that we do for the country to be able to support the budget. But just like overworking can have negative consequences (burn out, social and family problems), over-taxation can have negative consequences. But deliberately not working enough to support the family or deliberately not taxing enough to support the budget, can be a lot worse.

The problem with your simpleton way of looking at taxes is you are not including all of them; if all we faced were just federal taxes or just state taxes life would not be such a burden. But we have local, state, federal, then sales taxes on most of our items, then special taxes (gasoline, cigarettes, alcohol, etc.). Moreover, those ambitious among us that work hard and achieve some measure of wealth are unfairly taxed on our ambition at a higher percentage than the rest of the nation. So all of this burden, detailed above, will be far worse if the Bush tax cuts are withdrawn. Are the Democrats prepared for 20% unemployment?
post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Sorry if I refuse to be a sheeple.

And yet you're a Christian, right?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And yet you're a Christian, right?

As a matter of fact, yes I am. So?

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post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

As a matter of fact, yes am I am. So?

So you are a sheeple.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So you are a sheeple.

Uh huh.

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