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RIM attempts to create Apple-like buzz with BlackBerry Torch event - Page 4

post #121 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

You are totally wrong.

Nokia sells more than twice as many smartphones as Apple does.

http://www.macdailynews.com/gfx/arti...martphones.gif
post #122 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Nokia sells more than twice as many smartphones as Apple does.

http://www.macdailynews.com/gfx/arti...martphones.gif

Thats unit sales, not revenue, not profit. Apple became the most profitable handset maker in the world awhile ago. This is old news.
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post #123 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by agolongo View Post

I dont mind it (The 9800) and OS6 looks to be vastly improved (Syncing over WIFI!). I know it doesnt have an Apple logo on the back so it wont get the majority of the Lemmings on this site to give it any consideration.

"Apple-Like" Buzz? How do you know this, are you attending the event? Or is it a standard launch event like any other product? If it was truly an Apple-like event the audience would consist of a bunch or irrational disciples crying with every word that flowed out of the speakers mouth, and looking desperately for genitals on the new tech monolith to make love to.

Ah, yet another paid shill taking up space.....
post #124 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by agolongo View Post

.....
.......I know it doesnt have an Apple logo on the back so it wont get the majority of the Lemmings on this site to give it any consideration.

"Apple-Like" Buzz? How do you know this, are you attending the event? ...................

hehe, Bias much?

All 'Phone' launches are attempting an "Apple-Like" Buzz, where have you been?
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post #125 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Thats unit sales, not revenue, not profit. Apple became the most profitable handset maker in the world awhile ago. This is old news.

Where has Apple directly provided current quarter iPhone profit margins (without lumping in profits form other revenue streams)?
post #126 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Meh, I think it looks fine. It's no iPhone, but it's attractive in its own way. You guys do know that the iPhone isn't the only attractive phone on the market


iPhones and Sony Ericssons, those are generally attractive. Blackberry? Just doesn't do it for me. That I despise standard boring corporate culture could have something to do with it. The only thing worse than a Blackberry phone is for me, having to wear a tie to work. I draw the line at a long-sleeved shirt and black shoes.

BTW Nokias never really became attractive again after I switched to Sony E. five to six years ago.
post #127 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

The kids are demanding the BB. BBM is simply better than texting and emailing on other phones.

Yeah I guess I've never been heavy into texting and emailing is mainly done for work purposes. Maybe my social life sucks, or I prefer in-person contact. All this texting and facebooking, I wonder what real friendships you make out of it. Its good for keeping in touch with close friends and arranging to meet up, but like 30 texts a day and 3 hours to 5 hours of facebook each day, not for me...
post #128 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post


In other words, why would millions of people throw their money away on such patently inferior products?


For the same reason billions of people buy McDonald's hamburgers, or shop at Walmart .... price, price and only price .... certainly not because of them being of the highest quality. (and you're right .... buying such patently inferior products really is throwing your money away.)
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post #129 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Where has Apple directly provided current quarter iPhone profit margins (without lumping in profits form other revenue streams)?

One can easily make a judgement from Segment Revenue and Units Sold (see the Notes section of the 10Qs), and making a conservative assumption regarding Net Income to Revenue (which, it is well-known, is higher on iPhones than for the company as a whole).

Reasonable (ballpark) estimates? Nokia's forecasted profit (from all phone sales) for 2010 is likely in the region of $1B, RIM's (again from all phone sales) is $3B, which Apple's is well in excess of $4B.

Nokia is not anywhere near the most profitable, not by a long shot.
post #130 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Where has Apple directly provided current quarter iPhone profit margins (without lumping in profits form other revenue streams)?

From their Q3-2010 press release, conference call...

"The Company sold 8.4 million iPhones in the quarter, representing 61 percent unit growth over the year-ago quarter.”

"iPhone had an average selling price of $595.”

Remember, that is their revenue per phone not profit.

But here is a reputable site that has run the numbers for you.
Apple not only makes more profit than any other handset vendor but also is moving to make more profit than everyone else together.

Note, we’re talking about the entire handset market, not just smartphones. There is a reason why so Moto (and at least one other) have focused on a single high-end product at a time and have actually gone from red to black.

But if you don’t believe me you can read about it on this fanboy site: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1051937420091110
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post #131 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophace View Post


One thing that RIM is finally starting to capitalize on for the consumer market is BB Messenger. People are sticking with their BlackBerry's because their friends have them and using BBM is free and very convenient. This phone could help with the texting/web trade off too.

My 2 cents.

Apple is aware of this. So far they are allowing app developers to sort this out (eg WhatsApp). But if Apple took the reigns and competed with BB messenger having to use touchscreen would be more acceptable to that market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillman View Post

Not sure about this. Isn't the screen resolution a bit on the low side for a supposed flagship device? And a keyboard and touchscreen combined? I mean who is crying out for both?

I've nothing against Blackberry. Professional-looking devices. But it just feels a bit desperate. And is it gonna be that much cheaper than an iPhone?

It should be cheaper than the iPhone, I'm guessing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

They use BBM for several reasons. Its included in the BB service, meaning it doesn't count as a SMS/MMS, the msgs aren't limited to 160 characters and its almost instantaneous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

Begging to differ, BlackBerries have become quite popular amongst teenagers. Just look around. This is because RIM has continued to expand its competitive advantage when it comes to messaging. Someone else mentioned this somewhere above:The BlackBerry messaging (BBM) system is proprietary and independent of texting or emails. Teens like it because you can easily set up groups and invite others to join. Once teens join a group, they are effectively hooked on Crackberry.

As I mentioned, Apple could step in and compete with their own official system. However, how would the data you use be adjusted accordingly? Could that data be isolated and considered not part of your monthly quota? This would be great then. But that would mean some sort of Apple Messaging protocol that all carriers would need to roll out. Could be tough to implement uniformly across the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicsands View Post

Agreed. In fact, I see no disagreement herein. I root for RIM but the Torch doesn't quite cut it as it's at best a catch-up product at a time when they need more than that. 8 GB, sub-gigahertz processor, all inferior specs. But I'm happy to see they finally caught up on the web browsing front.

I do have a question. In all Apple stores, you can test use the iPhones including Facetime, calling and web surfing. Where I live, all carriers only have fake phones on display and so I can only buy BBs and Android phones on spec. Is this the same everywhere?

I have actually grown to hate the mobile phone industry in many ways over the past decade. And I am glad Apple gave everyone a kick in the nuts, at the risk of them being embroiled and party to mobile industry annoyances. Afaik around the world, mobile phones are usually all dummy displays except for specific concept stores in major cities... Only Apple really specifies that virtually all resellers must use a functioning demo unit.
post #132 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Meh, I think it looks fine. It's no iPhone, but it's attractive in its own way. You guys do know that the iPhone isn't the only attractive phone on the market

Whilst not to my taste, I agree. Some people knock apple's competitor's efforts simply because they are apple's competitors.
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post #133 of 155
Can you clarify average selling price for some of us? That would be helpful. I thought asp is the average revenue (not profit) for each unit. Therefore asp x units sold = revenue for that segment. Therefore 8 million times $600 = 4800 million or 4.8 billion. Then profit for this segment, is, say 40% on the high side which is less then 2.4 billion. Oh but thats one quarter, so we are looking at about 10 billion for the year on the high side. Am I counting things right? Haven't installed a calculator app for my iPad yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

From their latest 2010-Q3 results press release, conference call and Yahoos finance to get their net income...

"The Company sold 8.4 million iPhones in the quarter, representing 61 percent unit growth over the year-ago quarter.

"iPhone had an average selling price of $595.

Remember, that is their overall net profit. Do you think the iPhone is responsible for more or less of their profit? I think we all know the answer to that.

But here is a reputable site that has run the numbers for you.
Apple not only makes more profit than any other handset vendor but also is moving to make more profit than everyone else together.

Note, were talking about the entire handset market, not just smartphones. There is a reason why so Moto (and at least one other) have focused on a single high-end product at a time and have actually gone from red to black.

But if you dont believe me you can read about it on this fanboy site: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1051937420091110
post #134 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Can you clarify average selling price for some of us? That would be helpful. I thought asp is the average revenue (not profit) for each unit. Therefore asp x units sold = revenue for that segment. Therefore 8 million times $600 = 4800 million or 4.8 billion. Then profit for this segment, is, say 40% on the high side which is less then 2.4 billion. Oh but thats one quarter, so we are looking at about 10 billion for the year on the high side. Am I counting things right? Haven't installed a calculator app for my iPad yet

Your math looks right to me and, yes, $595 is for revenue, not profit of the iPhone. According to my calculations based on Yahoo! Finance we get 39.08% gross profit, 26.97% operating income and 20.70% net income.

But that is for all areas of business for the quarter, and I think we can assume the iPhone does better for Apple than other legs of their business. Still, even with that average it’s still damn impressive, shows a clear lead. On top of that, we’re using the quarter in which iPhone sales and supply are dramatically slowed as a new model gets released at the end of that quarter. I would image Q4-2010 will be even more impressive for iPhone sales and profit.
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post #135 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

Wow- I'm a moderate Republican, but I refuse to watch Fox, due to obvious bias. Why would you possibly think Fox is the most trusted news site (among Republicans, perhaps, but how bout everyone else). Give me a break, and give me a trusted link to back up your remark.

Here's a link from what I believe is an apolitical source http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0110/32039.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

He thinks it is because Fox News tells him so

I don't actually watch it but someone here was trying to equate AppleInsider and Fox News as being the same thing. Was it you? Either way it's unfair to try and trash either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

Wow. What you don't know about polling....

I agree very small sample size and we know nothing about where it was conducted. But the poll was conducted by what is a trusted polling group linked to the Democrats. If anything it means the results might be more biased to suit the Democrats right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rorybalmer View Post

lol The most trusted news source in America... According to fox news commercials.

They probably all claim something like that or whatever they can get away with!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

Oh, puhleaze...

By whom? Those that can't think, or those can and don't?

Public Policy Polling. Assumedly each person polled thought about their answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.



I agree, it's a shame. Happens in the movies too.

Finally, I don't want to take the thread off topic and I was never the one who compared AppleInsider to Fox News.
post #136 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Meh, I think it looks fine. It's no iPhone, but it's attractive in its own way. You guys do know that the iPhone isn't the only attractive phone on the market


Oh, but love is blind....

I think what most other handsets are lacking isn't so much about looks. The combination of multi-touch, the GUI, and the simplicity of the iPhone creates "intimacy". It becomes 'personal' very quickly. That's something most phones lack. They are still "all business", or mostly so, in the relationship one creates with them...

I know all this may sound a bit odd, but in fact it's deeply integrated with Apple's overall brand, masterfully managed by the team at Apple. It isn't only about marketing, but creating products that enable empathy, and easily establish themselves in the framework of one's own identity... few product lines manage to create "emotional ownership" as readily as Apple products do. In fact, they're designed to do just that. One of the ways they do that is they consistently meet and exceed expectations.

It isn't a bad thing....

So even if it isn't the nicest looking object out there, when someone 'adores' it, it becomes the most attractive... not too different from love, is it...
post #137 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by benice View Post

Fox News is considered the most trusted news source in America and you're trying to equate it somehow to a single issue website.

The most trusted news source.......?? You can't be serious.

Fair and balanced too? Uh-huh...


Personally, I'll keep my 'questionably trustworthy' 60 minutes and Mother Jones, thanks.
post #138 of 155
The only reason the iPhone has been successful is because of the media events. Everyone I see is so excited about September and of course the gleam in our eye's for the Windows 8 party. I'M SO EXCITED! LOADS OF ACTIVITIES!
post #139 of 155
.

Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen said RIM would bring Flash support to its devices in the
xxxxxx
second third half of this year.

.
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post #140 of 155
IPhones trump ANY Blackberry. And when are they gonna learn that virtual keyboards are what pol want?! Instead of somev3 inch thick slider?! Rimjobs failsvagain.
post #141 of 155
Step 1: Post in thread, writing something vaguely positive about an Apple competitor
Step 2: Get distracted by other things, carry on with life
Step 3: Come back to thread to find 20,000 replies from anantksundaram

Well, yes, it's obviously Apple that's top of the profits league table but RIM outperform the rest of the market by a long distance too. I don't see how me mentioning this is braggadocio though. I don't work for RIM, so what would I be boasting about? Only people like Daniel Eran Dilger boast about other people's success.

I was simply trying to put things into perspective after reading several "RIM are doomed" posts.
post #142 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

From their Q3-2010 press release, conference call...

"The Company sold 8.4 million iPhones in the quarter, representing 61 percent unit growth over the year-ago quarter.

"iPhone had an average selling price of $595.

Remember, that is their revenue per phone not profit.

But here is a reputable site that has run the numbers for you.
Apple not only makes more profit than any other handset vendor but also is moving to make more profit than everyone else together.

Note, were talking about the entire handset market, not just smartphones. There is a reason why so Moto (and at least one other) have focused on a single high-end product at a time and have actually gone from red to black.

But if you dont believe me you can read about it on this fanboy site: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1051937420091110

Ok ok Soli we get it, but not many companies can operate the way Apple does. Nokia and Moto make many cell phone models for all walks of life. Most of which have to be sold at a lower profit margin so consumers will buy them. The Torch looks like a decent device and I believe will sell well, and obviously so does ATT.
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post #143 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean812 View Post

IPhones trump ANY Blackberry. And when are they gonna learn that virtual keyboards are what pol want?! Instead of somev3 inch thick slider?! Rimjobs failsvagain.

That's not entirely true. I know lots of people that have given up their iPhones for a BB because they preferred a physical keyboard.
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post #144 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by benice View Post

Fox News is considered the most trusted news source in America and you're trying to equate it somehow to a single issue website.

the only folks who consider Fox news to be the most trusted news source are those who want to drink their koolaid. Please don't compare Fox with real journalism.
post #145 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Ok ok Soli we get it, but not many companies can operate the way Apple does. Nokia and Moto make many cell phone models for all walks of life. Most of which have to be sold at a lower profit margin so consumers will buy them. The Torch looks like a decent device and I believe will sell well, and obviously so does ATT.

Actually, they can all do what Apple does and many have started following suit and have finally turned a profit because of it.

I dont know when or where this actually happened but consumers have gotten to a point of expecting a great phone for free. That simply isnt sustainable for the manufacturers who then have to compete with each other with selling a cheaper and cheap device to the carriers if they want to move volume (at least in the US). Its like the low-end PC market, but much much worse.

My hope for Nokia is they split into two distinct divisions. One for the multitude of cheap handsets they sell and the other following Apples lead of focusing on a limited high-end selection with focus on an OS and UI that they dont currently have. I think if they moved to Android but then followed HTC and made a UI that set their device apart they would do well. Apple basically did this when they moved from Mac OS to Mac OS X. Nokia can even create their own App Store with apps certified and vetted by Nokia to work well on Nokia phones to further focus on their core competencies while also still allowing users to install apps from any other source.

In any regard, they and others still have options.
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post #146 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwoloszynski View Post

the only folks who consider Fox news to be the most trusted news source are those who want to drink their koolaid. Please don't compare Fox with real journalism.

I didn't. Others compared Fox to AppleInsider.
post #147 of 155
.

... Might have some influence on "global warming":

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...ls-sun-waking/

.
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post #148 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

.

... Might have some influence on "global warming":

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...ls-sun-waking/

.

Batten down the hatches!
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post #149 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

For the same reason billions of people buy McDonald's hamburgers, or shop at Walmart .... price, price and only price .... certainly not because of them being of the highest quality. (and you're right .... buying such patently inferior products really is throwing your money away.)

The problem is that a BB and an iPhone cost the consumer the same amount of money. My wife bought her BB 9700 for $199, the same as an iPhone. So price is not the explanation.
post #150 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by benice View Post

I don't actually watch it but someone here was trying to equate AppleInsider and Fox News as being the same thing. Was it you? Either way it's unfair to try and trash either.

If you don't watch Fox News, how could you say it's unfair to trash it? It's like saying you've never heard what Hitler said, so it's unfair to trash the man.

As far as comparing Fox News to AI, I only do it on a superficial level. Obviously this is an Apple fan site, so you'll see bias in little things like I pointed out. There is an unspoken sense of journalistic integrity though, especially since these articles are being linked to by Google News, and because of that, I make the comparison to Fox News. Fox News says they're fair and balanced and blah blah blah, but their bias is clear.

Get what I'm saying? I only said anything to begin with because in this case, the title could have literally been anything. Just fill in the blank: ____-like buzz.

BTW, I waited a few days before posting this so as to not take the thread off course at the peak of the discussion. I think most people have moved on to other topics.
post #151 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

The problem is that a BB and an iPhone cost the consumer the same amount of money. My wife bought her BB 9700 for $199, the same as an iPhone. So price is not the explanation.

And how many BoGo iPhone deals are out there ... none. I'd be willing to bet that if you could "discover" the average selling price of all iPhones sold against all rimm phones sold the prices would not be the same, by a long shot.
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post #152 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

And how many BoGo iPhone deals are out there ... none. I'd be willing to bet that if you could "discover" the average selling price of all iPhones against all rimm phones the prices would not be the same, by a long shot.

The subsidization does add a wrinkle to the equation. As seen in countries outside the US there are varying degrees of subsidy based on your plan and contract length. I think O2 offered a free iPhone with the most expensive plans. Really, the only measure worth using isnt what the carrier does to attract business but what the vendors average price per handset is.
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post #153 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

And how many BoGo iPhone deals are out there ... none. I'd be willing to bet that if you could "discover" the average selling price of all iPhones sold against all rimm phones sold the prices would not be the same, by a long shot.


What does a BOGO have to do with it? You still have to shell out the money. Besides, the 3Gs is still available for $99, which is going to dilute your hypothetical "average selling price" of an iPhone. Even so, I am willing to bet that the prices are within $50 dollars or so, and this is not a deal breaker for a smart phone.
post #154 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

If you don't watch Fox News, how could you say it's unfair to trash it? It's like saying you've never heard what Hitler said, so it's unfair to trash the man.

As far as comparing Fox News to AI, I only do it on a superficial level. Obviously this is an Apple fan site, so you'll see bias in little things like I pointed out. There is an unspoken sense of journalistic integrity though, especially since these articles are being linked to by Google News, and because of that, I make the comparison to Fox News. Fox News says they're fair and balanced and blah blah blah, but their bias is clear.

Get what I'm saying? I only said anything to begin with because in this case, the title could have literally been anything. Just fill in the blank: ____-like buzz.

BTW, I waited a few days before posting this so as to not take the thread off course at the peak of the discussion. I think most people have moved on to other topics.

Fair points. I guess that's the thing, bias is everywhere we look as all of us on AI well know!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

.

... Might have some influence on "global warming":

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...ls-sun-waking/

.

The comments section was the best part.
post #155 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Whenever I see this line, I (like many people) just think "automatic fail." Virtual keyboards have proven themselves to be faster and easier to use in general than the ones with the little plastic keys and this is a full-screen touchscreen phone for cripes sake.

Anyone making a phone in this day and age with a plastic slide-out keyboard is basically making a phone for old folks or for dizzy chicks that wear too much makeup and have long fingernails. there's nothing wrong with making a phone for that crowd, but having a big Apple-esque event and making out like this is a revolutionary new product just makes them look dumb IMO.

If you're going to have a big event and introduce a revolutionary new product, it should actually *be* revolutionary. This thing just isn't.
.

proven to who? that, is very much opinion. I type much faster with a physical keyboard... i just like touch screens for everything else.
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