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FTC believed to be investigating Apple's anti-Flash stance - Page 5

post #161 of 347
8/5/10 at 8:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

The reality is that Flash is 5 to 10 years behind itself, then, or it's developers are. Seriously, I can't even remember a time when I've gone to a website and said, "Oh, wow, this Flash thing they did is so cool, I'm totally immersed in it." (Should there be a "dude" on the end of that?) The reality is that I've yet to see a Flash based website that wasn't a piece of shit and that I didn't wish that they had just used HTML as god intended on the web. Maybe I'm just not impressed by "cool" animations and transitions and "effects". Actually, I'm really not because they just get in the way of what the site is supposed to be about. Or maybe it's the mentality of people who choose to develop in Flash that's the problem. The bottom line is that Flash is a technology that just seems to bring out the worst in web design and development.

Couple of decent ones here: http://www.ebizmba.com/articles/best-flash-sites
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post #162 of 347
8/5/10 at 8:43pm
Adobe needs to shut up and get over it. Apple can choose what they want to support on their system.
The MILLIONS and MILLIONS of iPad and iPhones in the world should paint enough of a picture that flash is not needed or people wouldn't have bought the product knowing in advance that it doesn't and never will support flash.

Flash is just another way to slow my phone down and chew up more of my 2GB data plan.
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post #163 of 347
8/5/10 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

3/4 of all web video is Flash based
The best advertising is Flash based
The best interactive content is Flash based
All The best movie sites are done in Flash

Flash is extensively used by ALL the big boys. For a reason.

People that hate Flash are just those who hate advertising...which is the only viable financial model for most web sites.

ClicktoFlashers are no different than software pirates: Entitled, sophmoric, selfish, and shortsighted.

Flash is in the past. It has not hurt Apple not supporting Flash. Each day that goes by more and more smart creators are using less and less Flash. Believe you me, Adobe knows this. That is the reason for the complaint with the FTC .
rfrmac
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rfrmac
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post #164 of 347
8/5/10 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

More random personal attacks in the absence of substance from the man who insists that "gross profit" is not a form of profit.

You just don't know when to quit....

He's probably just projecting out... let him be.
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post #165 of 347
8/5/10 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I understand that, for example, I don't know if the cellular mergers have benefited anyone but the cellular companies, where it's closer to an oligopoly than it was before. I realize some countries have fewer cellular companies, but those countries generally have far smaller populations as well.

And the banks. Don't forget how we ended up with "too big to fail."

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

As Millmoss has pointed out, nothing at all may come out of it.

The recent FTC settlement with Intel is instructive I think. Intel agreed to discontinue pricing practices that they never even admitted that they'd ever used. Both Intel and AMD have declared themselves pleased with the outcome. Probably AMD is more pleased, but Intel is saying that the settlement doesn't harm their business.

But according to some, we always have to wail and moan about the Big Bad Government, even when they do something useful. In fact I've long suspected that the real fear is that the government does useful things, which makes it so much harder to sensibly argue that everything the government does is fundamentally awful and we should always be against it.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #166 of 347
8/5/10 at 9:51pm
I can't believe after 160+ comments people still don't know the difference between Flash as a web plugin and Flash as an iOS app.
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post #167 of 347
8/5/10 at 10:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habañero View Post

No; I didn't make an assertion like Monstrosity did.


I'm simply asking a question people; settle down.

My Dad always told to be polite when engaged in a battle of wits and check to make sure that your opponent is armed.

I just might need to make an exception in your case....
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #168 of 347
8/5/10 at 11:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

It would be one thing if Apple was just prohibiting Flash, but is not the case. It was the media that turned this into a Flash vs. Apple fight.

NO 3rd party run time engines can be installed. There is no Adobe AIR, no Microsoft Silverlight, no Firefox, or Opera

Actually, Opera is available in the App Store.
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post #169 of 347
8/5/10 at 11:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

FTC ought to just bud-out. Government only makes matters worse and makes a mess of things. Government is the PROBLEM, NOT the solution!

If Adobe really wants Flash on iPhone, release it on Cydia, OR make an Adobe Flash phone.

The government's job is to ensure that nothing anti-competitive is going on. They should do that. Monopolies should not be permitted to exist.

However, the issue at stake here is that there is no monopoly to speak of.
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post #170 of 347
8/5/10 at 11:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I can't believe after 160+ comments people still don't know the difference between Flash as a web plugin and Flash as an iOS app.

There is actually very little information in this thread that would help a novice understand that difference.

Care to shed some light from your perspective?

Another point that bears repeating here. Adobe doesn't seem to have a clue regarding the anger many users, let alone developers, have had with many of their Mac products over the years. And in many cases, the true can be said of the Windows side, at least from a support stance. Don't believe me? Well, then ask any IT professional at any large corporation.

Point blank: Adobe stinks at backwards compatibility. Always has, and apparently always will. It just might be why many of us want to stay as clear of any form of Flash as possible.
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #171 of 347
8/5/10 at 11:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyepad View Post

Adobe needs to shut up and get over it. Apple can choose what they want to support on their system.
The MILLIONS and MILLIONS of iPad and iPhones in the world should paint enough of a picture that flash is not needed or people wouldn't have bought the product knowing in advance that it doesn't and never will support flash.

Flash is just another way to slow my phone down and chew up more of my 2GB data plan.

Is anybody putting a gun against your head and forcing you to use Flash?

I'm curious as to why you believe that people buying an iPhone or an iPad even think about whether Flash is installed on them. Do the tens of millions of computer users out there care if the video they're watching is a Flash video? Do the majority of those users deliberately delete Flash from their computers?

This issue would appear to be about choice. If an iPhone owner (me for example) would like Flash enabled to get the complete experience from some websites that I get on my Macs, then I'm currently sh!t out of luck because SJ has decided for me that I don't want that experience as an iPhone owner. Well he's wrong.

If an iPhone owner (you for example) doesn't want Flash for the experience that's available on the Mac, then you can choose not to install it. Then Flash won't "slow your phone down", or "chew up your data plan".

You see how that works? Choice. Flash wouldn't be compulsory. You would be able to choose to not have Flash on your iPhone even though people who wanted it would be able to have it.

That's the issue.

Apple, in rejecting Flash-based anything from the iOS universe, are telling iDevice users that they know what you and I want better than we ourselves do. Which is why, I suspect, the Feds haven't just ignored Adobe's complaint.

I believe that the Apple stance isn't about security, or stability, or lazy programming, or outdated technology or any of the other herrings being dangled by SJ. It's much simpler than that. Apple simply won't let Adobe use the hardware-direct access that would provide the performance to make the Flash experience acceptable on the iOS platform. And SJ is never going to allow his iOS's performance look anything but stellar. Control freak? You betcha.

If SJ was honest about his claims about Flash's inferiority, he'd have banned it from OS X long ago. For the same reasons he claims he won't have it on iOS. But he hasn't. He's full of it.
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post #172 of 347
8/5/10 at 11:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

Then click on the link, where the Flash spokesperson explained what went wrong:
http://blog.digitalbackcountry.com/2...ng-on-android/

I'll quote some of it for you:


I'm not justifying the FTC's investigation, but if you're going to post something, post the rest of it too.

If you think that the media hyped up the antenna issue with Apple, with some articles making this whole affair seem like BP's Oil Spill, then you should not pay any attention to this.

Just because Flash 10.1 crashes in a presentation isn't reason to simply dismiss it. Adobe deserves a chance to make things work with Flash on smartphones. I gave Apple a chance to make things work with the iPhone 4 and I owe Adobe at least that much.

Now with that said, if there is some RELIABLE, STATISTICAL STUDY to show that Flash Player for mobile phones is not very reliable, then that's a different matter.

Also, let me say that I understand Apple's stance on Flash and I am appalled at the types of comments I am hearing about Apple with regards to this issue, especially when those same people look the other way when Microsoft does far, far worse.
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post #173 of 347
8/5/10 at 11:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvswarup View Post

Actually, Opera is available in the App Store.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that Opera on iOS is not a browser per sé but an app that uses the services provided by Apple's Safari browser. So in essence, it's an overlay on Safari rather than being a browser in its own right.
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post #174 of 347
8/5/10 at 11:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that Opera on iOS is not a browser per sé but an app that uses the services provided by Apple's Safari browser. So in essence, it's an overlay on Safari rather than being a browser in its own right.

Actually it doesn't use Apple's rendering engine.

It's all rendered and compressed by Opera on their server.
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post #175 of 347
8/5/10 at 11:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

Actually it doesn't use Apple's rendering engine.

It's all rendered and compressed by Opera on their server.

Thanks for the heads-up. Consider me educated on the topic.
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post #176 of 347
8/6/10 at 1:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

The reality is that Flash is 5 to 10 years behind itself, then, or it's developers are. Seriously, I can't even remember a time when I've gone to a website and said, "Oh, wow, this Flash thing they did is so cool, I'm totally immersed in it." (Should there be a "dude" on the end of that?) The reality is that I've yet to see a Flash based website that wasn't a piece of shit and that I didn't wish that they had just used HTML as god intended on the web. Maybe I'm just not impressed by "cool" animations and transitions and "effects". Actually, I'm really not because they just get in the way of what the site is supposed to be about. Or maybe it's the mentality of people who choose to develop in Flash that's the problem. The bottom line is that Flash is a technology that just seems to bring out the worst in web design and development.

Absolutely 100% dead ON!!!! Great post!
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #177 of 347
8/6/10 at 1:27am
So why isn't Adobe Flash available in Cydia?

Away from where SJ is stopping you from having it, as you say.

Could it be because it doesn't exist, in which case Adobe would be stopping you, like they stop Blackberry owners from having it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

Is anybody putting a gun against your head and forcing you to use Flash?

I'm curious as to why you believe that people buying an iPhone or an iPad even think about whether Flash is installed on them. Do the tens of millions of computer users out there care if the video they're watching is a Flash video? Do the majority of those users deliberately delete Flash from their computers?

This issue would appear to be about choice. If an iPhone owner (me for example) would like Flash enabled to get the complete experience from some websites that I get on my Macs, then I'm currently sh!t out of luck because SJ has decided for me that I don't want that experience as an iPhone owner. Well he's wrong.

If an iPhone owner (you for example) doesn't want Flash for the experience that's available on the Mac, then you can choose not to install it. Then Flash won't "slow your phone down", or "chew up your data plan".

You see how that works? Choice. Flash wouldn't be compulsory. You would be able to choose to not have Flash on your iPhone even though people who wanted it would be able to have it.

That's the issue.

Apple, in rejecting Flash-based anything from the iOS universe, are telling iDevice users that they know what you and I want better than we ourselves do. Which is why, I suspect, the Feds haven't just ignored Adobe's complaint.

I believe that the Apple stance isn't about security, or stability, or lazy programming, or outdated technology or any of the other herrings being dangled by SJ. It's much simpler than that. Apple simply won't let Adobe use the hardware-direct access that would provide the performance to make the Flash experience acceptable on the iOS platform. And SJ is never going to allow his iOS's performance look anything but stellar. Control freak? You betcha.

If SJ was honest about his claims about Flash's inferiority, he'd have banned it from OS X long ago. For the same reasons he claims he won't have it on iOS. But he hasn't. He's full of it.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #178 of 347
8/6/10 at 3:10am
What do all of these Flash sites (even if some are impressive) have in common? Answer: none of them, accept HBO, will ever work on a phone, or a tablet of any make or OS as they are now.

All of the sites below will have to, as HBO has done, make a new interface for mobile devices, and more than likely 2: 1 each for phones and tablets. Thats a total of 3, for the same info and/or experience.

Now on the other hand, if they decide to use HTML5 & javascript, they just might get away with only 1, by just targeting the end users browser with a CSS switch.

NOTE: actually, a number of the current Apps on the AAS, as well as on the Android could and should be web apps anyway.

Top 10 Best Flash Websites of 2010
1 | Moodstream | Getty Images = Should be an App.

2 | Monoface
 = Should also be an App... and fairly easy for a developer to convert to HTML5/CSS3

3 | Waterlife
 = Really nice site... too bad it doesnt offer any other way to get information about their documentary other than through their Flash interface.

4 | Marc Ecko
 = Also nice... but is it necessary? Especially when trying to get usable info (like contact) it needs to open a separate HTML window anyway.
5 | HBO - Home Box Office
 = Only site to degrade gracefully and offer a choice for mobile users, or plain HTML... or, theres an App link to download.
6 | Get The Glass = 
Worthless... but pretty.

7 | AgencyNet Interactive = 
Uh oh... nice stuff. But is it useful? And wow are they tied to Flash in a big way!

8 | 2Advanced Studios
 = Nice futuristic design. Far too busy though, and absolutely unusable on anything other than a desktop.
9 | Section Seven Inc.
 = Shows off Flash "capabilities" and nothing else worthwhile ... or READABLE!
10 | Dave Werner's Portfolio
 = Could see this as an app or eBook/Magazine Album. talented designer though(!)

Just my take.
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #179 of 347
8/6/10 at 3:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habañero View Post

Just because you may not be familiar with the current version of ActionScript, or don't know how to use it, does not mean anything. That would be like me saying about Objective-C (with which I'm not familiar) "That seems really hard and unintuitive, it's shite."

As I thought when you made your assertion, it's baseless hyperbole (but thanks for your input).

Oh whatever.I know both systems very well. And it makes no odds whatsoever if I am unfamiliar with the latest version of Flash or not. I do not need to justify to you or anyone. I'm very much aware of the advantages of Cocoa , which is so far advanced of Flash it makes this very conversation ridiculous.
Despite what you may think, a framework lives and dies by it's philosophy and vision (I have created a few in my time). This is not just my personal preference, there is clearly a higher level of thought that has contributed to the creation of Apples tools.
With Flash, every day would be a chore, the framework and language would change like the wind because the company lacked focus and direction, jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon like headless chickens.

With Cocoa/Objective C, it's stable as hell, and you have the speed of high level programming, yet can interchange naturally with a wealth of powerful low level C based API's. Not even in the same ballpark mate.
Farewell. And good luck with your next career. I should start looking now if I were you.

PS: You really should be comparing HTML 5 with Flash. They are both designed to run on multi platforms, yet Adobe has proved consistently that it can't even get that right, dragging their feet, making excuses, passing the buck like the dip shits they are and will always be.
Being platform agnostic, which it does terribly, is the only feature Flash has going for it. And now there is an open alternative.

I would just like to end this conversation with one praise for Adobe (well actually Macromedia) I'm quite fond of the timeline based method of working in flash. I have repeatedly badgered Apple over the years to introduce a timeline based tool to its suite, and I'm still convinced that it is on it's way, combined with Quartz Composer, one day, fingers crossed.
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post #180 of 347
8/6/10 at 4:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

HTML5 is JUST starting to support the API's needed to take it beyond simple text. a year ago, it was barely something worth talking about beyond an alternative way to stream video.

If flash was removed from all web content today, there is NOTHING that is ready to fill everything it can do. Yes, it's going to fade, and yes, HTML5 will be superior to it. But not today.

Uhm, yeah, I think my point was that we are better off without "everything it can do" or at least without everything that's been done with it. Well, that and that the 5-10 years estimate is wrong and Flash has about 2-5 years of life left.
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post #181 of 347
8/6/10 at 4:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Apple is preventing people to port apps developed with Adobe tools. To me, it does sound very anti-competitive.

No one can force Apple to develop porting tools, but if there are porting tools available, and resulting code is compatible with iOS platform without any modifications required on OS side, Apple should not enforce such an administrative restriction.

Porting is very common on much more complex levels than iOS apps. Games are being ported between different game console platforms all the time, for example. It is true that ports are by default not as superior as originals, but they can come close. Additionally, we are talking about code infinitely more complex than your average mobile phone application.

Either the App Store business model is within the law or it isn't. If it is, and it certainly seems to be, then the whole "porting" issue you raise is moot.
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post #182 of 347
8/6/10 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Couple of decent ones here: http://www.ebizmba.com/articles/best-flash-sites

Had time to get through the first three, hated all of them. Terrible web experiences in my opinion, especially the water site: it's message was entirely lost, as was my patience, waiting for it to load and actually deliver it. If that same site were redeveloped in HTML by a decent designer, it might not be as 'cool', but I'll bet I would have known what it was about within the first 10 seconds on it.

This is what I mean about how Flash, as a medium, essentially sucks because it causes "developers" to focus more on the presentation (and, let's face it, most just aren't talented enough to get away with that) than on the message. In the best case, it doesn't add anything, In the worst it detracts. And, as a video container, it's just a complete waste of resources.
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post #183 of 347
8/6/10 at 4:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I can't believe after 160+ comments people still don't know the difference between Flash as a web plugin and Flash as an iOS app.

I can't believe that after 160+ comments people still think people don't know the difference between Flash as a web plugin and Flash as an iOS app.
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post #184 of 347
8/6/10 at 4:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

This issue would appear to be about choice. If an iPhone owner (me for example) would like Flash enabled to get the complete experience from some websites that I get on my Macs, then I'm currently sh!t out of luck because SJ has decided for me that I don't want that experience as an iPhone owner. Well he's wrong.

Well, you may think he's wrong, and this issue is about choice, but you have, as usual, got it all wrong.

You do have a choice. You can buy or not buy an iOS device. It's entirely your choice. Sorry, you don't get to choose your choice, but you do have one, no one has taken away your choice.

Your insistence that you ought to be able to choose to have Flash on your iOS devices (a purely academic choice, since Adobe has not yet demonstrated a version of Flash running on iOS that doesn't totally suck) is like me insisting that I ought to be able to choose, at every web site I go to, whether I want to view a Flash or HTML version. That's the choice I want. Without it, I can't get the complete experience I desire, and I'm currently shit out of luck because all these web site owners have decided for me that I want the experience the way they designed it. Are they all wrong too? Or maybe you are.
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post #185 of 347
8/6/10 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

This issue would appear to be about choice. If an iPhone owner (me for example) would like Flash enabled to get the complete experience from some websites that I get on my Macs, then I'm currently sh!t out of luck because SJ has decided for me that I don't want that experience as an iPhone owner. Well he's wrong.

That is total BS.

Apple hasn't decided that you can't have Flash, Adobe did. THERE IS NO FLASH ON MOBILE DEVICES WITH THE IPHONE'S CPU POWER. IT DOESN'T EXIST. Granted, the iPhone 4 has a CPU that is theoretically powerful enough to run the slow, buggy version of Flash that they have on Froyo, but this discussion has been going on for years and Adobe never released a version that would run on any earlier iPhones. It has never been demonstrated, it has never been released through Cydia, it hasn't even been rumored.

It's not just the iPhone. Where is Flash for ANY 400-600 MHz CPU smart phone out there? Is it Apple's fault that Adobe never released a version for WinMobile or PalmOS or Blackberry or Simian?

Apple has made a decision to support fully developed technologies that add value to the phone. Adobe has had years to do that and has failed. Apple finally got tired of it and said 'too late'. At the same time, developers have been realizing that Flash is a fail on mobile devices, so you see more and more formerly Flash-only sites going to html every day. Car dealers, Disney, Youtube, Hulu, NBC, NY Times, and so on. Flash is no longer needed for most people. I've never missed it on my iPhone (other than the very first year or so before all of the above conversions took place).

Your demand is like someone demanding that Ford put an 8,000 pound tow hitch on a Ford Fiesta. Could they do it? Sure. But it would still be clunky and the car is incapable of safely pulling 8,000 pounds. It's just not a suitable combination.

You have a choice. You can buy an iOS device or you can buy something else. Just keep in mind that, when it comes to Flash, 'something else' limits you to about 0.1% of the phones on the market. But if Flash is critical to you, that's your choice.

It is really amazing how some people manage to make EVERYTHING Apple's fault. If it rains today, is that Apple's fault, too?
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post #186 of 347
8/6/10 at 5:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I can't believe that after 160+ comments people still think people don't know the difference between Flash as a web plugin and Flash as an iOS app.

A lot of people do, but it's just plain irrelevant.

The FTC has no more right to tell Apple that they should support Flash iOS apps than they do to tell them to support Flash plug-ins. If they go down that path, what's next? Telling Apple that Mac OS X has to run Windows apps natively without purchasing other software? Telling Microsoft that Windows has to be written in Objective C? Or maybe telling Sony that they're not allowed to sell a DVD player that doesn't play Blu-Ray as well as DVDs. Or maybe telling Ford and GM that they have to design their cars so engine parts are interchangeable.

It's just not within FTC's purview to tell Apple that they have to support Flash plugins OR Flash apps.
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post #187 of 347
8/6/10 at 5:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

Is anybody putting a gun against your head and forcing you to use Flash?

Is anybody putting a gun against your head and forcing you to buy an iPhone? Did the Apple helicopters swoop down on your house? Did they probe you?
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post #188 of 347
8/6/10 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvswarup View Post

The government's job is to ensure that nothing anti-competitive is going on. They should do that. Monopolies should not be permitted to exist.

+1 Insightful

Quote:
However, the issue at stake here is that there is no monopoly to speak of.

True: the threshold for "monopoly" is 40%, and with Apple saying they only have less than 17% and other sources noting that it's dropping each quarter, there's no case for criminal charges on the Sherman Act.

But it may be worth noting that the only reference to "monopoly" is coming from the posters here; the word doesn't appear in the article, and the wording of the civil complaint was not disclosed there.
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post #189 of 347
8/6/10 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Gross Profit is simply Revenue minus Cost of Goods Sold (the latter being a rough measure of direct costs). By itself, it's an intermediate metric that is somewhat meaningless, quite different from, say Profit (Net Income) or Cash Flow or, for that matter, even EBIT (Operating Income).

What is the point you're trying to make?

Read the thread I linked to.

Laugh.

Enjoy.
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post #190 of 347
8/6/10 at 6:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

As a developer I use ANY tool that does the job.

The reality is that HTML 5 is 10 years behind Flash when it comes to building anything immersive or significant.

I've seen the HTML 5 demos and all I can do is laugh. Why do you think all the big web sites use Flash?

+1 Insightful.

Exercise for anyone here who actually does any development:

1. Find a substantial Flash site.
2. Build a copy of it with Flash CS5.
3. Build another copy of it in HTML5.
4. Report back here with the productivity difference between the two.

I find an inverse relationship between people willing to parrot Jobs' long disproven talking points in "Thoughts on Flash" and actual development experience.

Apple doesn't want Flash because it would take about a day to make an alternative App Store for Flash games, and that would cut into the tax Apple collects for everything in the iOS ecosystem. Aside from a personal grudge against Adobe, that's pretty much all there is to that story.
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post #191 of 347
8/6/10 at 6:58am
I'm slightly aurprised anyone can look at the complaint Adobe is apparently making (That not allowing Apps developed in the Flash compiler to be cross-compiled to iOS and submitted to the App Store is anti-competitive) and not be absolutely dumbfounded by Adobe's apparent stupidity. In order to distribute an App on the App Store, developers sign an agreement which says they have to develop the App using the iOS SDK. It's Apple's store, Apple's platform and Apple's products and the developers are free to say "no" if they're not happy and make an Android App or something instead. There's nothing anti-competitive about it. Adobe has no more legal right to offer a competing SDK for iOS than I do to call myself a Ford-Specialist Mechanic, including using their logo, without Ford's say-so.

MacBook Pro 15" | Intel Core2 Duo 2.66GHz | 320GB HDD | OS X v10.8
White iPad (3G) with Wi-Fi | 16GB | Engraved | Blue Polyurethane Smart Cover
White iPhone 5 | 64GB | On 3UK

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MacBook Pro 15" | Intel Core2 Duo 2.66GHz | 320GB HDD | OS X v10.8
White iPad (3G) with Wi-Fi | 16GB | Engraved | Blue Polyurethane Smart Cover
White iPhone 5 | 64GB | On 3UK

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post #192 of 347
8/6/10 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

+1 Insightful.

Exercise for anyone here who actually does any development:

1. Find a substantial Flash site.
2. Build a copy of it with Flash CS5.
3. Build another copy of it in HTML5.
...

Well, there's where, not unexpectedly, you go wrong. I'm not surprised, it's a common mistake, and one that the use of meta-platforms encourages. The correct exercise is:
  1. Find a substantial Flash site.
  2. Build a copy of it with Flash CS5.
  3. Build a new site that presents the content more effectively using HTML5.

The idea that HTML5 sites ought to mimic Flash sites misses the point entirely. As long as you think like you do, you are stuck in the past.
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post #193 of 347
8/6/10 at 7:15am
92 percent of statistics are made up on the spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

3/4 of all web video is Flash based
The best advertising is Flash based
The best interactive content is Flash based
All The best movie sites are done in Flash

Flash is extensively used by ALL the big boys. For a reason.

People that hate Flash are just those who hate advertising...which is the only viable financial model for most web sites.

ClicktoFlashers are no different than software pirates: Entitled, sophmoric, selfish, and shortsighted.
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post #194 of 347
8/6/10 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

True: the threshold for "monopoly" is 40%, and with Apple saying they only have less than 17% and other sources noting that it's dropping each quarter, there's no case for criminal charges on the Sherman Act.

But it may be worth noting that the only reference to "monopoly" is coming from the posters here; the word doesn't appear in the article, and the wording of the civil complaint was not disclosed there.

Actually, there's no such threshold. But go ahead and show us where the Sherman Act defines a monopoly as 40%.

For extra credit, feel free to show where the Sherman Act says that monopolies are illegal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Read the thread I linked to.

Laugh.

Enjoy.

I don't know why you're so eager to make yourself look foolish. You claimed that Apple's profits were excessive - and then used gross margin (which some uninformed people call 'gross profit') figures. And then you keep repeating the same mistake over and over - even after you're told.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

+1 Insightful.

Exercise for anyone here who actually does any development:

1. Find a substantial Flash site.
2. Build a copy of it with Flash CS5.
3. Build another copy of it in HTML5.
4. Report back here with the productivity difference between the two.

I find an inverse relationship between people willing to parrot Jobs' long disproven talking points in "Thoughts on Flash" and actual development experience.

Sorry, but no one is interested in your hallucinations about how real developers feel about Flash. In fact, the REAL developers can use the appropriate tool for each job. It's only the lousy developers who use Flash for everything.

But the important thing is that the entire premise of your post is wrong. Apple has no obligation to make life easier for developers. EVEN IF YOU ARE CORRECT that html takes more work, it's irrelevant. In fact, it should make you happy because it could, in the long run, drive people away from Apple. Apple is allowed to do things that might drive developers away, so your entire premise disproves your belief that Apple is doing something wrong by not supporting Flash.
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post #195 of 347
8/6/10 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Couple of decent ones here: http://www.ebizmba.com/articles/best-flash-sites

And here's a thread on a forum on a Flash-based game which I enjoy, but would like converted to HTML 5:

Dark Orbit HTML 5 Conversion

Like I've said in the thread, Flash eats up more than a core of my Mac Book Pro. The graphics aren't Mac Everquest with the Quake 2 engine when it takes up a core, but EQ is also running under Rosetta!

Too much Mac vs. PC and browser war discussion tossed in there by the ignorant, too.
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post #196 of 347
8/6/10 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmCityWeb View Post

The whole world's gone koo-koo bananas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by iPilya View Post

no.. that would just be America!

No, it's the whole world.
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post #197 of 347
8/6/10 at 7:32am
Well the bigger thing in common with them is most people won't bother with them much. They may be Top 10 Flash, but far from Top 10 websites in the world.

Flash portfolio sites being the best Flash site? Well, respects to the skillz of them all, but that's ridiculous in some way... Wow, one of the best Flash sites is all about their Flash sites...

Flash design used to be going somewhere. Now it seems so pretentious and navel-gazing like the movie industry. Flash sites of movies? Sure, I'm sure it's nice, it's a pity most movies are such garbage nowadays I wouldn't even bother pirating the movie, let alone visiting the movie website.

For the record I just worked on a Flash project. It's hideous, I know. But it helped me afford my iPad Oh, the irony.

I seek to repent my evil ways and walk the path of HTML5. Problem is, that path seems to be paved with bricks and dust rather than silver. For now...

PS. Wow that SectionSeven website is so interactively-wrong in so many ways. Again respects to the artisticness of everything, but, boy, like I said, it's like making movies 3D for the sake of IT'S 3D OMFFG WE ARE SO AWESOMESZ!!111!!1

PPS. For SEO and social media etc. we really as a web industry got to move away from "Flash Portfolio" kind of stuff. Sure, it's what the big-advertising-boys and big-design-agencies use and all that. But, for me, the golden era of Flash was 2000-2005. Now, it's, like I say, just like bad action movies with no plot and rubbish acting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

What do all of these Flash sites (even if some are impressive) have in common? Answer: none of them, accept HBO, will ever work on a phone, or a tablet of any make or OS as they are now.

All of the sites below will have to, as HBO has done, make a new interface for mobile devices, and more than likely 2: 1 each for phones and tablets. That’s a total of 3, for the same info and/or experience.

Now on the other hand, if they decide to use HTML5 & javascript, they just might get away with only 1, by just targeting the end users browser with a CSS switch.

NOTE: actually, a number of the current Apps on the AAS, as well as on the Android could and should be web apps anyway.

Top 10 Best Flash Websites of 2010
1 | Moodstream | Getty Images = Should be an App.

2 | Monoface
 = Should also be an App... and fairly easy for a developer to convert to HTML5/CSS3

3 | Waterlife
 = Really nice site... too bad it doesn’t offer any other way to get information about their documentary other than through their Flash interface.

4 | Marc Ecko
 = Also nice... but is it necessary? Especially when trying to get usable info (like contact) it needs to open a separate HTML window anyway.
5 | HBO - Home Box Office
 = Only site to “degrade gracefully” and offer a choice for mobile users, or plain HTML... or, “there’s an App” link to download.
6 | Get The Glass = 
Worthless... but pretty.

7 | AgencyNet Interactive = 
Uh oh... nice stuff. But is it useful? And wow are they tied to Flash in a big way!

8 | 2Advanced Studios
 = Nice futuristic design. Far too busy though, and absolutely unusable on anything other than a desktop.
9 | Section Seven Inc.
 = Shows off Flash "capabilities" and nothing else worthwhile ... or READABLE!
10 | Dave Werner's Portfolio
 = Could see this as an app or eBook/Magazine Album. talented designer though(!)

Just my take.
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post #198 of 347
8/6/10 at 7:42am
Lets see here.

I don't clean my car with acetone because it wrecks the paint. I make it known I won't do this.

So the acetone manufacturers want to sue me because they might find it harder to market acetone as a wax to other less-informed suckers.

Acetone is not a wax. Flash is not a graphics tool.

Can't wait to see the outcome. Just please don't let it be contested in California's 9th District Courts.
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post #199 of 347
8/6/10 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

... I seek to repent my evil ways and walk the path of HTML5. Problem is, that path seems to be paved with bricks and dust rather than silver. For now... ...

It sounds like, having seen the bull, you are trying to catch him:



Quote:
I seize him with a terrific struggle.
His great will and power are inexhaustible.
He charges to the high plateau far above the cloud-mists,
Or in an impenetrable ravine he stands.

Comment: He dwelt in the forest a long time, but I caught him today! Infatuation for scenery interferes with his direction. Longing for sweeter grass, he wanders away. His mind still is stubborn and unbridled. If I wish him to submit, I must raise my whip.

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post #200 of 347
8/6/10 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

PS. Wow that SectionSeven website is so interactively-wrong in so many ways. Again respects to the artisticness of everything, but, boy, like I said, it's like making movies 3D for the sake of IT'S 3D OMFFG WE ARE SO AWESOMESZ!!111!!1.

I agree. 30 seconds just to load the main page? And then the main page goes way offscreen (even on my 1920x1200 monitor)?!?!?

What a worthless site. It doesn't do anything that an html site couldn't do faster and far more efficiently.

The really funny part is that people are using sites like that as justification for Flash on an iPhone. Can you imagine using that site on an iPhone? I'd rather have a root canal.
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