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FTC believed to be investigating Apple's anti-Flash stance - Page 2

post #41 of 347
Some Flash apps are bad. Some iOS apps are bad.

Some Flash apps are good. Some iOS apps are good.

It has nothing to do with quality.

Apple could have plenty of awesome cross-platform apps that still go through quality control, but Apple doesn't want that. Apple wants control.

Apple is using non-competitive tactics.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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post #42 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swift View Post

The FTC would be thinking of restraint of trade or things like that.

I see no requirement for supporting that monstrosity. And now, with the iPhone 4, I have to kill apps like my GPS that keeps the GPS on while it's in the background, and kills the battery.

Let's see how many Froyo phone users do exactly the same thing with Flash.

Yes, the antitrust laws are meant to prevent restraint of trade in its various forms and by its various methods. From what I've seen, Adobe is spitting into the wind on this, but if they file a formal complaint, the FTC is virtually obligated to look into it. Not that those who can't ever be convinced that these laws exist won't rattle on about how this can't be happening, and even if it is, that it must somehow be illegal, immoral, or fattening.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #43 of 347
If Apple doesnt want to support Flash thats upto them. If consumers dont like it theres plentyo f other smart phone platforms they can buy instead. If Adobe can force Apple to do this by complaining to the government then its about time Red Hat, Oracle, Novell and all the other Linux vendors made a complaint that Adobe should support Linux with Photoshop and the rest of its "creative suite" bloated and buggy thing that it is
post #44 of 347
They still make Flash?
post #45 of 347
Black & Decker refuses to support Flash on my toaster. We should sue them, too.

On a less ridiculous note, Adobe is having Apple investigated for anticompetitve actions, saying that Apple is preventing Adobe from having a monopoly on the internet. Right.
post #46 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post

Black & Decker refuses to support Flash on my toaster. We should sue them, too.

Cute, but nobody is being sued.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #47 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBillyGoatGruff View Post

No. When did this happen?

news to my ears also.
post #48 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Some Flash apps are bad. Some iOS apps are bad.

Some Flash apps are good. Some iOS apps are good.

It has nothing to do with quality.

Apple could have plenty of awesome cross-platform apps that still go through quality control, but Apple doesn't want that. Apple wants control.

Apple is using non-competitive tactics.

As a Flash developer & an iOS dev, I can unequivocally conclude that Flash is a complete crock of shite in comparison.
post #49 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

As a Flash developer & an iOS dev, I can unequivocally conclude that Flash is a complete crock of shite in comparison.

Show us.
post #50 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Click to flash on an Android, great!

Click to Flash is the only reason that my G4 Cube still lives on the innertubes.

Best program ever, all of my friends use it to block this vile crap.
post #51 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Cute, but nobody is being sued.

I know, it was just part of the exaggeration
post #52 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habañero View Post

Show us.

He doesn't have to, he's clearly giving an opinion, which he's entitled to.
post #53 of 347
Lot confusion on this thread. Apparently many are mistaking Flash, as in, the garden variety swf, with the completely different Flash native file that has been ported to an iPhone compatible application. Two entirely different things. Kind of like the novices who think Java and Javascript are the same thing. We know you guys hate Adobe, but at least get the facts straight.

Other misconceptions:

Flash cannot run on iPhone - WRONG Flash 1 can using Gordon.js
Flash is for lazy developers - WRONG Flash is so easy that non-experts can do simple things
Flash ported iPhone apps have never been available - WRONG several were accepted by Apple
Flash is responsible for Mac crashes - WRONG only Flash programmers cause crashes
Adobe doesn't care about Mac users - WRONG Adobe sells a lot of pro applications for Mac

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #54 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

He doesn't have to, he's clearly giving an opinion, which he's entitled to.

I didn't say he had to; I'm honestly curious if he has metrics to offer, or just hyperbole.
post #55 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Anyone else here notice that RationalTroll is grasping at straws. (Or is he grasping at straw men?) And he even admits he has no idea what he's talking about

He's grasping at SOMETHING. That's why his posts are so loony - it's hard to type with one hand on the keyboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

I don't care if flash lives or dies. What I care about is websites having to accommodate to Apple, all because Apple doesn't want to work with Adobe like Microsoft did (even then I don't REALLY care because I'm not a web developer ).

The difference is that no one has to accomodate Apple. As Android fans are so eager to point out, Android phones are allegedly outselling iPhones right now - and RIM is outselling both of them. If someone doesn't want to support the iPhone, there are plenty of other phones customers can choose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

3/4 of all web video is Flash based
The best advertising is Flash based
The best interactive content is Flash based
All The best movie sites are done in Flash

Flash is extensively used by ALL the big boys. For a reason.

Even if all of that drivel were true, so what? If it were true and if customers were really eager to use Flash, then they wouldn't buy iPhones and Apple would only be hurting itself. Adobe could put Flash on RIM or Android or WinMob phones to their heart's content (if they ever get a usable version that works on those phones).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

People that hate Flash are just those who hate advertising...which is the only viable financial model for most web sites.

ClicktoFlashers are no different than software pirates: Entitled, sophmoric, selfish, and shortsighted.

That's one of the stupidest arguments I've ever seen on this site - and that's saying a lot.

People who use ClicktoFlash are choosing not to install a plugin on their browsers and choosing NOT to look at part of the internet. Just how in the world does that equate to stealing property that isn't yours?

(Hint: Flash is not the only way to advertise on the web. Advertisers are free to use any other version of advertising if they want their ads to be seen. Instead, they choose to use Flash, even knowing that a lot of people can't see it).
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #56 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

The vast majority of the time, they result in no further action or an agreement from the company to change practices which violate competition laws.

Exactly. It's an investigation. If it leads to something, that will be worth reporting.

As for any action on Apple's part (such as any agreements) don't hold your breath. Nothing Apple is doing is remotely close to violating any laws.

Talk about a non-issue (but great blog fodder!)
post #57 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

How many people here honestly believe that the iPhone SDK, which destroyed Adobe's investment in making a Flash deployment option fully compatible with all previous versions of the SDK license

Actually, it wasn't compatible with the original SDK license. People were reading into it what they wanted to.

Much like the Antennagate press conference where Apple basically pointed out that there was nothing particularly wrong with the iPhone 4 antenna (and there isn't - don't bother) all Apple did was clarify.

Basically because they felt they had to. Adobe was hoping to make enough fuss to get Apple to back down - Apple doesn't work that way, and they found out just how little that tactic got them.

If Adobe lost any investment, it was a calculated loss, not an innocent "we got screwed by Apple" loss. They gambled and lost - boo hoo.
post #58 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habañero View Post

Show us.

here's the video and article. Enjoy.



Adobe Flash crashes twice during mobile demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hqFTx8rLsg

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/was-ap...ile-demo/34268
post #59 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone

Lot confusion on this thread. Apparently many are mistaking Flash, as in, the garden variety swf, with the completely different Flash native file that has been ported to an iPhone compatible application. Two entirely different things. Kind of like the novices who think Java and Javascript are the same thing. We know you guys hate Adobe, but at least get the facts straight.

Other misconceptions:

Flash cannot run on iPhone - WRONG Flash 1 can using Gordon.js
Flash is for lazy developers - WRONG Flash is so easy that non-experts can do simple things
Flash ported iPhone apps have never been available - WRONG several were accepted by Apple
Flash is responsible for Mac crashes - WRONG only Flash programmers cause crashes
Adobe doesn't care about Mac users - WRONG Adobe sells a lot of pro applications for Mac

Couple of points:

Yes non-experts can even do simple things with Flash. That doesn't mean that lazy developers don't flock to Flash - it gives multi-platformness for free, at the expense of huge performance costs and making optimization impossible.

Games have been recreated using Apple's platform, which Apple always has an still is allowing.

Why do the same Flash apps cause crashes on Mac that doesn't on Windows?

Yes, they make their applications for Mac as well, that's true. But they are amongst the most poorly designed apps ever, completely ignoring Apple's Human Interface Guidelines. Such a simple paradigm like Command+Comma for application Preferences isn't even carried over. They don't care about Mac users - they care about money. Getting the FTC to investigate Apple had everything to do with money and nothing to do with giving users a better experience, as confirmed by people in this very thread telling how bad Flash on Android is.
post #60 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

here's the video and article. Enjoy.

You've clearly missed the point of the article starting this post, my original post, Monstrosity's post, and my question to him.

Your video showed a browser crashing.

The topic is about Apps built natively in Objective-C compared with Apps built in Flash and compiled.

Welcome to the thread (try to keep up).
post #61 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habañero View Post

I didn't say he had to; I'm honestly curious if he has metrics to offer, or just hyperbole.


you have metrics for your side of the party?
post #62 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

ClicktoFlashers are no different than software pirates: Entitled, sophmoric, selfish, and shortsighted.

See, now you are insulting pirates. If they are going to steal something, they would at least steal something that works and doesn't lock up your browser.

I hate flash because 99% of the time my browser locks up, it's flash! If I kill flash in activity monitor, my computer leaps back to life - until some page re-loads flash again

I'd be more interested in what Adobe had to claim about flash if it didn't absolutely suck on Mac OSX vs Windows!

This is the crux of Apple's position - not that we hate Adobe, or even we hate flash. It's that they don't want Adobe to not focus on flash for the iOS when the next shiny thing comes along (ooh! Android!) and let the iOS languish with a sucky end user experience that they have no way to fix.

And I am with them! If Adobe seemed as interesting in making the Mac OS X and heck, Linux too, versions of Flash as optimized as Windows there would be less of a concern. I am concerned (and so is Apple) because Adobe has a long history of 2nd rate support for all but their chosen platform - and the difference in performance of their chosen platform and everyone else is a WIDE gap. And as others in the thread have pointed out, look at what is happening with WebOS and BlackBerry vs. Android for mobile flash. Exactly what Apple was worried about and cited as the chief reason for excluding flash is happening. Gee wiz, who would have thunk it?

Adobe has no one to blame but themselves. So far Apple has been the only one willing or able to call Adobe on their uneven treatment of platforms and say "enough is enough - were not interested!" Also Jobs has stated that if Adobe ever did get their act together with flash they aren't opposed to it. You would think that Adobe would be throwing themselves at proving Jobs wrong - if not with the iOS, than with Android, Blackberry, WebOS - something! Anything!

So Adobe, where's the beef? Who's the real villain here?
post #63 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOBIZ View Post

you have metrics for your side of the party?

No; I didn't make an assertion like Monstrosity did.


I'm simply asking a question people; settle down.
post #64 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Enforcing laws, you mean.

Puleeze! The US government is doing everything possible to make the teabaggers actually look sane with their anti-government rants. Feds, stay out of this petty crap! Nobody cares if apple uses flash or not and if they do, there are other options for consumers. Fer chrisakes!
post #65 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Hint: Flash is not the only way to advertise on the web. Advertisers are free to use any other version of advertising if they want their ads to be seen. Instead, they choose to use Flash, even knowing that a lot of people can't see it).

100% correct

The thing about web advertising is that the responsibility for the success of the ad is divided among various entities, none of whom care about each other.

Company with product or service
Ad Agency
Designers
Media Distribution
Website Operator

That is why they still try to deliver Flash ads to users with Click to Flash and iOS devices. No one wants to go to any effort to make the whole supply chain work together. If they had some conditional code that just checked the device and had a a few different file formats to display, we would all be viewing a lot more ads.

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post #66 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadash View Post

And surfing on the Incredible can suck compared to my old iPhone because of the crappy Flash ads that are displayed. Why do we want that on our phones?


We don't want anything by Adobe on any of our devices. It is used for porno. That is why Steve won't let Adobe put their horrible software on his iPhones - Adobe is lazy and their software makes things crash too much.
post #67 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

I'd be more interested in what Adobe had to claim about flash if it didn't absolutely suck on Mac OSX vs Windows!

Totally agree with that. When I watch YouTube videos on my Macbook Pro, it feels like it's going to catch fire.

Actually, that could be a hit on YouTube - Computer Catches Fire Playing YouTube!
post #68 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Some Flash apps are bad. Some iOS apps are bad.

Some Flash apps are good. Some iOS apps are good.

It has nothing to do with quality.

Apple could have plenty of awesome cross-platform apps that still go through quality control, but Apple doesn't want that. Apple wants control.

Apple is using non-competitive tactics.


and Adobe is trying to take over an otherwise healthy platform (in terms of development). At least Apple is trying to control THEIR OWN product.
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post #69 of 347
Websites don't have to do anything for Apple, however they have every right to ignore Apple customers, it's up to them to choose whether they want to support Adobe monopolising access to web content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

I don't care if flash lives or dies. What I care about is websites having to accommodate to Apple, all because Apple doesn't want to work with Adobe like Microsoft did (even then I don't REALLY care because I'm not a web developer )

Apple not only needs to show that html5 can do what flash can do, but they also need to show what it can do that flash CAN'T do. Why spend money converting a website when the html5 version will work the exact same? To reach a small percentage of viewers? Add to the fact that Safari seems to be the only capable browser for html5 right now and it's an uphill battle for Apple.

As far as keeping it off mobile devices for battery and performance, I'll say that froyo looks like it has promise, but the performance needs some improvement!

In the end, Apple control's their OS, and if they don't want it, nobody should force them. That's just wrong.
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post #70 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

This is ANTITRUST, ANTICOMPETITIVE behavior here, and it's appropriately getting investigated.

(apologies to Inigio Montoya) You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

ANTITRUST (hey, I can shout too!)
Quote:
opposing or intended to restrain trusts, monopolies, or other large combinations of business and capital, esp. with a view to maintaining and promoting competition: antitrust legislation.

ANTICOMPETATIVE

Quote:
business or government practices that prevent or reduce competition in a market (see restraint of trade).

Apple isn't a monopoly. They certainly aren't colluding with anyone. They don't have enough market share to force other vendors to not install flash (if it were available - ha!).

So how exactly is Apple preventing Adobe from putting flash on WebOS, Android or Blackberry?

They aren't! Adobe is free to do whatever they want with vendors other than Apple. If you want flash, knock yourself out. There are lots of other alternatives... er, wait...

To lay this at Apple's feet is hilarious. The FTC investigation will go no where. They would be laughed out of court. Instead of throwing around a bunch of big words that you obviously don't understand, why don't you ask Adobe what's take them so long with the other mobile platforms? If you use flash on your Droid X and it whacks your battery life in half, I suppose this will be Apples fault too?
post #71 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

If they can prove it works reliably and doesn't drain the battery too easily, what will Apple say now?


Apple supports only open standards. Flash is proprietary. Apple will say "Thanks, but we prefer HTML5 because it is open and free".
post #72 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Add to the fact that Safari seems to be the only capable browser for html5 right now and it's an uphill battle for Apple..



Flash is dying very quickly. Every website is converting. It is not an uphill battle, it is a change of tide. And Flash is being dragged out to sea. Buh Bye, Flash!
post #73 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Websites don't have to do anything for Apple, however they have every right to ignore Apple customers, it's up to them to choose whether they want to support Adobe monopolising access to web content.

And I suspect that is what will kill Flash. Websites aren't going to ignore Apple users who I seem to remember reading studies have shown are generally wealthier than the norm. Just the people you want.
post #74 of 347
.....
post #75 of 347
I think the FTC is holding it wrong...

(...runs and hides behind a tree)
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post #76 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

The best advertising is Flash based


Nope. The best is iAds.
post #77 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habañero View Post

About half the people posting here are confused about what this case is about.

It isn't about the Flash Player browser plug-in being left out of Mobile Safari (as several have pointed to Silverlight, Java, et al as a comparison)

It's about Apple deciding to prohibit Apps from the App Store that have been built with the ActionScript language and then compiled into a Objective-C runtime.

If they can prove such compiled apps run less efficiently, Apple has a case.
If they can't, Adobe has a case (their case being "what does the authoring IDE have to do with anything as long as the App functions and meets other App store requirements")

Until someone shows that performance is consistently worse, I agree with Adobe.

A Sample of Flash "cross-compiled" game
http://itunes.apple.com/app/fickleblox/id330996323?mt=8

First of all, I don't think Adobe built a cross-compiler for the iOS, what they did is most likely just bundling a Flash file with Flash run-time hence the unnecessarily bloated package.

Second of all, Even if they REALLY built a cross-compiler, why do they feel like they have the right to build cross-compiler for a controlled/closed platform, and expect full approval? There was never any invitation sent to anyone letting anyone do that. Well you can do that just don't expect apps built with it to get approved for the App Store.
post #78 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Actually, it wasn't compatible with the original SDK license. People were reading into it what they wanted to.

Please enlighten us: Which clause(s) of the SDK 3.0 license was CS5 Flash not compliant with?
post #79 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Enforcing laws, you mean.

No - private interests most definitely. Law maybe if you mean unwritten which is often the case. Private interests and corporations run this country. It's a shame. This United States 'experiment' is a failure. It's time to vote out these interests for the sake of Americans and for our government to take care of it's people. We waste too much time. Time for change. We are young yes. But time to grow up.
post #80 of 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster

Add to the fact that Safari seems to be the only capable browser for html5 right now and it's an uphill battle for Apple.

Any WebKit-based browser that keeps updated with the latest developments would be equally compatible as Safari, including Google Chrome and the web browsers of Android, BlackBerry (as of OS version 6), and WebOS.
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