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You supply-siders are going to go bonkers over this... - Page 3

post #81 of 108
8/23/10 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

That is the completely logical response to "I've been banned, I've made up not just a profile, but a lifestyle and I'm going to use it to declare facts and figures inaccurate by claiming an anecdotal lifestyle in opposition to said facts and figures.

You're "conveniently" a man who (supposedly) makes huge amounts of money selling solar systems and growing organic veggies. You conveniently don't exploit anyone with regard to labor. You don't harm any land. You somehow are begging to pay more taxes but I guess have no charitable causes or concerns right now. I could go on but really, why bother.

It's called making shit up. The proper response to someone who is just making up a bunch of shit is to call it completely bullshit and ask them to stop.

Just like the GOP, just like Christianity, just like Karl Rove, just like Bush, just like Cheney, just like Gingrich, just like Boehner, just like Limbough, just like Fox News, just like you, making shit up. I thought you love that?
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #82 of 108
8/23/10 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Just like the GOP, just like Christianity, just like Karl Rove, just like Bush, just like Cheney, just like Gingrich, just like Boehner, just like Limbough, just like Fox News, just like you, making shit up. I thought you love that?

Enjoy the caricatures but the reality is that while you have to make up stuff to assign to people and their motivations on here. It is clear that you are a banned poster who should be given no credibility in any of your personal claims. Toss up any amount of dust you want, but anyone on here can go back through those MarcUK posts and see that you are none of the things you now claim to be and any attempts to steer discussion points claiming your own personal expertise or experience should be treated as completely discredited nonsense.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #83 of 108
8/23/10 at 7:36pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

How so? Exactly. Specifically. No vague generalities please.

The vast majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Profits have come back to corporations, but jobs have not. Who has ultimate say in hiring? The top 1%. Who gets shafted? Everyone else. Who owns the majority of the property in this country? The banks. Who control the baks? The top 1%.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #84 of 108
8/23/10 at 8:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The vast majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck.

And this is the fault of the richest 1%? How?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Profits have come back to corporations, but jobs have not.

So? Blame Obama for that. The uncertainty his administration has created is causing the hesitancy in hiring. I wouldn't be hiring anyone right now with the shit he's pulling (and promising).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Who has ultimate say in hiring? The top 1%. Who gets shafted? Everyone else. Who owns the majority of the property in this country? The banks. Who control the baks? The top 1%.

Again, I ask you to avoid vague generalities. Come back when you can. Until then your claim that we're all serfs to the top 1% is just blowing so much hot air. If we're serfs to anyone it is the government. That's a much more easily defensible argument given the 40-50% of income that they forcibly extract from Americans.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #85 of 108
8/24/10 at 4:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The vast majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Profits have come back to corporations, but jobs have not. Who has ultimate say in hiring? The top 1%. Who gets shafted? Everyone else. Who owns the majority of the property in this country? The banks. Who control the baks? The top 1%.

Why is the rate of savings higher in China than here?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #86 of 108
8/24/10 at 4:36am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
The corporations have very effectively controlled the financial narrative of our country. No matter what the crisis, the answer is always SPEND SPEND SPEND. Too many people buy into the bullshit. The fatcat CEOs enjoy their golden parachutes and the people are left with nothing in the bank and their pensions and 401ks destroyed.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #87 of 108
8/24/10 at 5:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The corporations have very effectively controlled the financial narrative of our country. No matter what the crisis, the answer is always SPEND SPEND SPEND. Too many people buy into the bullshit. The fatcat CEOs enjoy their golden parachutes and the people are left with nothing in the bank and their pensions and 401ks destroyed.

You can make an argument that "corporations have very effectively controlled the financial narrative of our country" (though you'll need to provide evidence of this).

However, as to the narrative of "No matter what the crisis, the answer is always SPEND SPEND SPEND." it seems to me that these words have come from many or most of the politicians of our day and often egged on by popular economists of the day.

As to "too many people buy into the bullshit," whose fault is that?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #88 of 108
8/24/10 at 5:47am
RE: BR

It must be nice to recite a mantra rather than deal with reality.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #89 of 108
8/24/10 at 6:07am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
It must be nice never to read another Trumpetman post again.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #90 of 108
8/24/10 at 6:25am
That's rich. You haven't been reading posts from anyone for a while. The replies make that clear enough. There is just the repetition of beliefs and caricatured strawmen that represent what you want to address. No need for them would be necessary if reading and responding o posts were your actual goal.

Claims you'll ignore someone, you can't threaten an action in which you are already engaged. If you want a true threat try responding to someone rather than telling them what they "really" believe or what "you know they've bought into". That would be truly scary.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #91 of 108
8/24/10 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The right's favorite columnist, Paul Krugman, put forth this excellent piece about the expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/op...ref=columnists

If you can't afford money to provide healthcare for the fucking heroes who put their lives on the line to try to rescue people in the rubble of the WTC after 9/11, how the hell can you afford to extend the tax cuts for the wealthiest 1%?

And here's another response:

Quote:
According to Paul Krugman, for government not to raise taxes is for government to cut checks to persons whose taxes arent raised (Now Thats Rich, August 23).

Economists say that money is a veil that obscures peoples view of the economys underlying reality namely, the fact that people produce and consume, not money, but real goods and services. So lets recast Mr. Krugmans understanding of taxation in terms of something real.

Suppose that Sue works hard on her land all spring and summer growing 100 bushels of corn, and then successfully resists her Uncle Sams attempt to grab 40 of those bushels. Would Mr. Krugman describe this situation as one in which Uncle Sam gave 40 bushels of corn to Sue? Even if some sort of familial duty obliges nieces to help feed their improvident uncles, surely it would still be grossly misleading to say that Sues transfer of 30 bushels to Uncle Sam, rather than the 40 bushels that Uncle Sams friend believes that Uncle Sam should receive, means that Uncle Sam gave 10 bushels of corn to Sue.

BTW, when put into these terms and with the recognition that taxes are retrieved by force (or threat of force, imprisonment and violence) it is much easier to see how the bushels of corn going from Sue to the government are basically being stolen from Sue.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #92 of 108
8/24/10 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And here's another response:



BTW, when put into these terms and with the recognition that taxes are retrieved by force (or threat of force, imprisonment and violence) it is much easier to see how the bushels of corn going from Sue to the government are basically being stolen from Sue.

Sue obviously does not want to go to war, drive on roads or retire nor does she care if her neighbor imports bushels of corn for half the price of hers from China.

The Bush tax cuts which are current law written by Republicans are to expire. The law also demands that if they are to be extended they have to be paid for. This is all Republican Conservative law. Up to now these tax cuts were afforded by borrowed money and some Republicans 10 years ago felt that this was a bad idea but they were outnumbered by the borrow form China and spend Conservatives. I have not been here that long but I would like to see trumptman's posts opposing the Republican law the way it was written.
These cuts were the law in Sept 2008 when the entire financial system started to collapse and millions lost their jobs. The same law was on the books when Bush gave 700 bill to AIG and a bunch of banks. It was also on the books when the deficit went from surplus to disaster.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #93 of 108
8/24/10 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Sue obviously does not want to go to war, drive on roads or retire nor does she care if her neighbor imports bushels of corn for half the price of hers from China.

Are those things really obvious? Why?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

The Bush tax cuts which are current law written by Republicans are to expire.

And the Captain Obvious award goes to...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

The law also demands that if they are to be extended they have to be paid for.

And I think they should be both extended and paid for...by spending cuts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

...when Bush gave 700 bill to AIG and a bunch of banks...

Minor correction: Bush gave away $350 billion. Obama gave away the other $350 billion. And if want to be really correct, we'd have to say that the (Democratically-controlled) Congress gave away the $700 billion (and another $800 billion about 4 months later.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #94 of 108
8/24/10 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

How on Earth can you say that when YOU are the one spouting hyperbole? You said it was the most stupid and immoral thing you've EVER heard. Intellectually dishonest much yourself?

Do you understand the word you used...hyperbole? Apparently not. You're the one who blew the statement entirely out of proportion. You're the one who attacked it by pretending it was meant to be literal.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #95 of 108
8/24/10 at 7:11pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
So you were exaggerating...to the extreme? You were making use of...hyperbole??? Gee, that's what I said in the first place. Your hyperbole is not needed or wanted here.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #96 of 108
8/25/10 at 12:30am
Thread Starter 
Well at least my man Kucinich consistently voted against the bailouts...
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post #97 of 108
8/25/10 at 9:14am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Taxes are arbitrary - they get changed all the time, and I don't see why people have a problem with a one time 20% wealth tax, in a system where we have inheritance, income, sales, and real estate taxes.

As long as you are given ample warning, then paying the taxes is the free choice of the individual. You answer the question "Is it worth this much money to continue living here, or should I move to another country?".

I don't have a problem with a wealth tax - but where I would start to get worried is if capital controls are implemented (where you can't take your money out of the country), or they limit your ability to leave the country and renounce your citizenship. If they start doing that, then we are all fish in a barrel ready to be shot by the taxman.
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post #98 of 108
8/25/10 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Taxes are arbitrary - they get changed all the time, and I don't see why people have a problem with a one time 20% wealth tax, in a system where we have inheritance, income, sales, and real estate taxes.

Indeed most people don't have problems when the tax falls on someone else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

As long as you are given ample warning, then paying the taxes is the free choice of the individual.

Hmmm...that's a rather debatable argument. Yes people can re-structure their assets and income (the rich are usually for more adept at this than others) to avoide taxes. And yes...your next suggestion...


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

You answer the question "Is it worth this much money to continue living here, or should I move to another country?".

But this is a rather stark choice to force someone into. Furthermore there are limitations, particularly on the wealthy or high net worth individuals. Including exit taxes I believe. The real question ought to be why we insist on pushing people to these limits?


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I don't have a problem with a wealth tax

My guess is you wouldn't have to pay it, so your lack of a problem with it isn't surprising.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

but where I would start to get worried is if capital controls are implemented (where you can't take your money out of the country), or they limit your ability to leave the country and renounce your citizenship. If they start doing that, then we are all fish in a barrel ready to be shot by the taxman.

Indeed. But one can't help wonder whether this is the next step. If more and more people do what you claim they can do above (and apparently more are), how strong will the incentive be for the government to do exactly this. They want their pound of flesh. I believe there are already limitations on wealthy people in particular and, of course, leaving the country while remaining a citizen doesn't get you out of paying income taxes (the US is the only country for which that's true).

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #99 of 108
8/25/10 at 10:03am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

My guess is you wouldn't have to pay it, so your lack of a problem with it isn't surprising.

It depends on where they set the limits - I lost 40% of my net worth in 2008, which most likely dropped me out of the top 1%, but I would probably still pay the tax (and it would hurt).

Exit taxes are set the same as capital gains, minus a deductible (so you actually save capital gains taxes if you leave, compared to what you would pay if you stayed), and you no longer have to pay US income taxes for 10 years after you leave. GWB changed the laws to make it much easier to leave the country.

I actually left Canada based on the kinds of calculations I am talking about - there was also a girl involved, so the decision was not entirely financial.
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post #100 of 108
8/25/10 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

It depends on where they set the limits - I lost 40% of my net worth in 2008, which most likely dropped me out of the top 1%, but I would probably still pay the tax (and it would hurt).

So you might be subject to such a "wealth tax" and it might hurt but you'd still be ok with it? Do I have that right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Exit taxes are set the same as capital gains, minus a deductible (so you actually save capital gains taxes if you leave, compared to what you would pay if you stayed),

ok


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

and you no longer have to pay US income taxes for 10 years after you leave.

10 years is a long time. This policy also makes the typical argument I hear when being critical of the federal income tax that goes something like: "Well you must not wanna drive on the roads or have police or clean air or stuff like that!" ring a bit (more) hollow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I actually left Canada based on the kinds of calculations I am talking about - there was also a girl involved, so the decision was not entirely financial.

Women! They do make us do crazy things sometimes. I hope she was worth it in the end.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #101 of 108
8/25/10 at 10:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

My guess is you wouldn't have to pay it, so your lack of a problem with it isn't surprising.

And you don't live paycheck to paycheck so your lack of empathy for those that do isn't surprising either.

Quote:
So you might be subject to such a "wealth tax" and it might hurt but you'd still be ok with it? Do I have that right?

e#s has always claimed to be wealthy, so you dug yourself in a hole, then questioned his motives ("Do I have that right?") when he said you were wrong about his wealth. You're assuming everyone is as selfish as you are and you think he must be lying.
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post #102 of 108
8/25/10 at 10:17am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So you might be subject to such a "wealth tax" and it might hurt but you'd still be ok with it? Do I have that right?

10 years is a long time. This policy also makes the typical argument I hear when being critical of the federal income tax that goes something like: "Well you must not wanna drive on the roads or have police or clean air or stuff like that!" ring a bit (more) hollow.

Women! They do make us do crazy things sometimes. I hope she was worth it in the end.

Some years she was worth it, and some years not so much. This is a good year, and hopefully the years keep on getting better .

The 10 year thing was horrible - I railed against it on these boards actually. When it was in place I felt trapped here, and it could happen again with capital controls and citizenship revocation controls - if you wanted to leave before getting trapped again, this is definitely the time to do it.

In terms of the tax, you have to looks at the pros and cons. The money will be taken from the rich anyway, as the poor are just as bankrupt as the government is. They will either tax more or default on the debt, either way the money comes out of my pocket most likely, as all the other pockets are empty. Income taxes will not work, because no matter what they set the income tax to, they collect 18% of GDP after a 3 year normalization period. Sales tax will slow down the economy more, real estate tax hikes would collapse the housing market more, etc.

No matter what, worst case for the rich is a collapse of society, because then the inherited advantages of wealth go away.
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post #103 of 108
8/25/10 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And you don't live paycheck to paycheck so your lack of empathy for those that do isn't surprising either.

You know this works better if you don't tell me what I know, think, feel, believe have empathy or sympathy for. It's rather presumptuous.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #104 of 108
8/25/10 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Some years she was worth it, and some years not so much. This is a good year, and hopefully the years keep on getting better .

Good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The 10 year thing was horrible

No doubt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

if you wanted to leave before getting trapped again, this is definitely the time to do it.

We have toyed with this idea. Even investigated a few places to go...including renouncing citizenship. Our situation is complicated by family (children in particular). We're going down a different route instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Income taxes will not work, because no matter what they set the income tax to, they collect 18% of GDP after a 3 year normalization period.

I know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Sales tax will slow down the economy more, real estate tax hikes would collapse the housing market more, etc.

But...moving away from income, investment, capital gains and property taxes toward consumption taxes would likely be much better in the longer run. It would be much better, when you have to, to tax consumption vs. income and savings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

No matter what, worst case for the rich is a collapse of society, because then the inherited advantages of wealth go away.

Well that will be bad for everyone, and I'm not sure it is out of the realm of possibilities right now.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #105 of 108
8/25/10 at 10:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You know this works better if you don't tell me what I know, think, feel, believe have empathy or sympathy for. It's rather presumptuous.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
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post #106 of 108
8/25/10 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Whatever.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #107 of 108
8/25/10 at 10:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

In terms of the tax, you have to looks at the pros and cons. The money will be taken from the rich anyway, as the poor are just as bankrupt as the government is. They will either tax more or default on the debt, either way the money comes out of my pocket most likely, as all the other pockets are empty. Income taxes will not work, because no matter what they set the income tax to, they collect 18% of GDP after a 3 year normalization period. Sales tax will slow down the economy more, real estate tax hikes would collapse the housing market more, etc.

My new hero.
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post #108 of 108
8/25/10 at 11:57am
Should the Rich pay More in Taxes?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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