Apple partner Foxconn boosts 'entertainment' time to curb suicides - Page 2

Obviously you have no clue. I wonder how much time you have spent in large US corporation in the USA. That actually has changed the opposite you say. Only those who prepare to be unemployed do not work long hours anymore.

And BTW it is not theory. I have been working for them (roughly seven of them) for last 15 years and I have seen the change.

Try some finance around NYSE apart of technology corps. to see for yourself what direction it went. You will be surprized. Unless of course you do not count blackberry job related communication work when you want to watch movie with your family or confenerence calls 2-4AM in the night with those guys working day shift in Bangalore.

In reality it is not two wrongs, its only the other commenters who are judging what is happening in China and not FR who is there and is more able to give a better perspective than those of us here in the US or outside of China.
Admittedly FR does come off a little harsh though.

see





response to nht:

Is george bush quote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j76bLFbpuLQ

You're absolutely right. Please, please... protest against all things Apple by canceling your AI account, never buy (but salivate at) Apple products again, turn around and walk away. Don't look back. Please, do it now while it's still fresh in your mind.

Trust me, we'll all be right behind you. I'm sure the mass exodus will make Apple, along with all the other tech-companies think that manufacture in China think twice!

</sarcasm>

There's no way to win-win:
- If American companies did not export jobs, we'd be accused of living off of the world. At least we're "distributing the wealth", if only a bit.
- If American companies automated the factories, whether here or in China, that would make things far worse for workers who would have absolutely no jobs.
- American companies do export jobs and it's killed the economy for American workers. Those who think those jobs will come back some day are deluding themselves. Factory type jobs are not coming back to the U.S. What will happen is that as more and more Chinese workers demand higher wages than the 75 cents an hour they're currently making, is that eventually, those jobs will move to India and Africa.
- If Apple (and companies like Apple) moved those jobs back to where they've manufactured in the past: Ireland or the U.S., prices would have to rise substantially. Want to pay $5K for a MacBook Pro instead of $2.2K? I didn't think so. People already think Apple is ripping them off.
- From what I've seen, these factories are nothing like the sweatshops of the past. They are air-conditioned and have extensive facilities. The biggest problems facing the workers is that they have to stand for their entire shift and they're not permitted to talk during their shifts. These are also very young workers who are completely isolated from their families. But I believe this will improve over time. We have to keep the pressure on Apple and companies like Apple to continuously improve the lives of their employees. I believe that kind of pressure works quite well.
- In an ideal world, companies would manufacture their products in the markets in which they serve. This way, the communities that benefit Apple by buying their products would benefit in turn by receiving jobs. Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way and it probably never again will.

How distributed are those 13 across departments?

Obviously your sarcasm meter is broken...unless you think it is also possible to walk uphill both ways...

Yes to both. Well not Detroit specifically.

No! No, not Detroit! No! No, please! Anything but that! No! No!

You should. Oh, and you should visit China too, some time. You might actually learn a couple of things.

This is absolutely ridiculous talk. You guys don't know squat about what you're talking about.

On the scale between sweatshop and luxury resort, the Foxconn plant is probably closer to the luxury resort end than any other place in China. It's not a sweatshop. It's demonstrably true that this is so. Apple has shown this time and time again. Cameras have gone in, people have investigated, and no proof of this assertion that it's some kind of horrible sweatshop has ever been found.

It's a factory. More or less the same as any American Factory, only cleaner, and with better working conditions on on average. The people that work there get low wages by our standards, but (and here is the important bit), but actually rather good by their own standards. This is why there were *fewer* suicides on average at Foxconn last year than at the real "sweatshops." There have also been investigations of the conditions at the factory with no insanely major problems found and a few recommendations like this one, which they are actually trying to follow. They should be applauded for being one of the few Chinese factories that's at least trying to do better by their workers.

If anyone bothered to research it a bit, you'd find that the most likely main reason for the suicides was removed right after the last suicide anyway. They were paying the families a giant packet of money when one of the workers dived off the top floor! It has nothing to do with the workers being maltreated, and everything to do with the culture, and the standards of living in China in general.

Yet another China panic by the granola-swilling trustafarians and anti-insutrialist scions of American industry and privilege. Nothing new to see here. The more scandalous part is that China is pegging their currency too low, which means Apple probably invested too much in China. But this is a natural consequence of China's currency manipulation.

Ah, that would be Nirvana and it should apply to everyone here (me included).

I have been to China many times, although not within the last few years. I have had clients who make regular trips there and what they share in photos and impressions is quite fascinating.

I do shake my head in amazement sometimes as the incredible growth rates there in the conversion process from rural to urban living. I have heard it said repeatedly that, as of early 2006, China's expansion is equivalent to building an entire new city the size of Houston, TX each month, or San Francisco, CA every two weeks.

Such incredible growth must have its downsides, and I suspect the rape of the land and the pollution that follows must be equally dismal. But I am not there to see it.

Your thoughts and impressions?

First off , @kochak and @nht, I have been coming to China for almost 11 years now so I am well aware of what goes on in cities verses rural areas. In fact I spent several days last year on a reunion trip to a remote rural village with my family and 40 others as they went to honor the village where they stayed and worked the fields during the cultural revolution. Dirt poor. Open toilets. The whole lot. However, this is the same way these people have lived successfully for centuries, but there is no question that their lives continue to improve as the younger generation leaves and works in the cities while sending money home. The most modern building in the small village was the school where with pride they are giving their children and grand children better educations so that they can go out and prosper in the rising economy. The villagers aren't sitting around with their heads in their hands going "woe is me". They are gregarious and content, and happy that their children and their children's children are moving toward a better life.

Lastly Kolchack, in fact drivel is a derivative of dribble - and dribble is exactly what I meant, spewing drooling / slobbering nonsense.

One of the most gripping takes ever on what actually has happened in the past few decades in this remarkable socio-political-economic transformation - arguably, the most remarkable in human history - is the book "China Inc.," by Ted Fishman (http://www.chinainc-book.com/news.html).

Some people bemoan the fact that we, as Westerners, are sometimes puzzled and confused. Our puzzlement and confusion are peanuts compared to what the Chinese people themselves feel, and what they've had to undergo.

You hit the nail on the head. They have a hunger for wealth-creation, a work-ethic, and a sense of national and community pride that is increasingly putting to shame countries like the US. I sometimes worry that we are becoming lazy, dumb, and whiny, and that one day, these guys are going to seriously kick our bu**s.

If it weren't for the ability to innovate that still keep us ahead (for now), we'd be heading south much quicker.

Environmental Issues facing China

http://www.focusire.com/archives/483.html

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...A_GRAPHIC.html

http://wwf.panda.org/who_we_are/wwf_...roblems_china/

Corruption in China

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/pub...=view&id=19628

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10595981

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8593069.stm

Displacement of Villagers

http://wn.com/Homeless_Displaced_in_...out_a_Village_

http://apmrn.anu.edu.au/conferences/....Tan%20Guo.pdf

Oh c'mon, people. Knowing that there's blood on my iPhone's hands only makes it all the more precious to me.

Of course those are issues - and nontrivial ones.

But that is overly cynical and simplistic, and misses the point about all the great things that are happening as well.

What you are pointing to would be like judging the US, for example, by the Gulf oil spill ('environmental issues'), Blagojevich et. al ('corruption'), or New Orleans/Katrina ('displacement').

Google "Kentucky Fried Movie" and "Detroit". BringYourOwnSenseOfHumor.


Yes, you can automatically assume that those that disagree with your position on X have never ever been to X, understand X, and absolutely know nothing about X because they disagree with your position on X.

Especially if that position is that "'Mericans are ignorant" and the topic is about something overseas.

Hint: FreeRange having a chinese wife and visiting China is insufficient to call everyone else ignorant about China and conditions at Foxconn.

Which is a Taiwanese company and one of the pieces of cultural friction at the factory...and the Foxconn execs strike me to be the same kinda folks I met in Taiwan as a kid (highly placed officials). Traditionalist and very hierarchical. Great folks if you're at the top of the food chain and they treat you as an equal. Maybe not so much if you aren't. The kind that in mainland Chinese (vaguely historical) soaps are not overly portrayed kindly. Overbearing, shifty, abusive, dithering and ultimately cause the family's downfall somehow...usually by collaborating with the Japanese in WWII.

The soaps are interesting...reflective of current Chinese cultural mores or mildly subtle propaganda? Either way, decent production values and you certainly aren't going to do a soap in China that the government doesn't like. Me, I get bored too easily to sit through 100 eps just to another version of "son/daughter meets and falls in love with inappropriate girl/boy, conflict and mayhem ensues, everybody dies in the end". <Cue montage of key scenes and sad music>.

Yes, 13 suicides, and 30 more attempts in that same 5 month time period. Google suicide cluster and the Foxconn employee demographics. Young, somewhat educated, single children from rural communities wondering why the hell they are mindlessly doing repetitive manufacturing for 15 hour days, seven days a week not for a single summer but for the foreseeable future.

You can do anything for a short period. When you're 22 and can't figure out a path to something better? These kids expected a better future than this...to someday figure out how to become lao ban and not just dai mao.

You want suck living conditions and long work hours join the Navy. But at least there the organization has a path for seaman to admiral.

Read this if you can. Giz or Engadet had a translation somewhere.

http://www.infzm.com/content/44881

Heck, it even made CCTV news...probably because it was a taiwanese company.

I believe you were attempting to be humorous. Hard to tell these days in spite of the smiley face.

I you weren't, then I would suspect that a enormous blood diamond on someone's hand would be something you would admire or desire.

In my early thirties I wore a solid gold Rolex. At the time it was a sign of "success." When it was taken off my hand wrist at gunpoint in the Newark, NJ rental car lot, I still didn't get it. I just went out and replaced it with a solid gold and much slimmer Baume et Mercier.

Now I wear no jewelry at al. Nada. Zip. Not even a cheap watch. Somewhere along the line I grew a conscience. The way I now look at it? If I can afford to buy a Rolex, or whatever, then I can surely afford to help someone in need. Whenever I upgrade my systems, I look to my family first, but most of them are doing OK. More than likely I ask around to see who could really use a [insert whatever tech gear I am upgrading here]. If nothing comes to mind, then I donate it to a worthy charity. One that has a good track record and isn't top heavy with retired corporate types sucking down a large part of the proceeds, such as the United Way and others have done (at least in the past).

I love technology, and it has been a large part of my life since the days when colleges would not allow handheld calculators in upper level math classes (it was considered "cheating"). But I still do a Ben Franklin every time I upgrade or decide to add something here or there. The first is to determine need vs want, but I take it all the way down to "how does this impact whatever".

And yet I am grateful for all of this, because there have been times in my life where I had to wonder if I would live to see the sunrise (pick a war - doesn't matter which one - they're all the same), or which "1001 ways to cook Top Ramon" recipe was going to be breakfast, lunch or dinner - or the meal of the day.

But that's me. How you decide to interact with the Universe is up to you.

Ah yes, I see the "Ignorant Americans" meme has been trotted out once again by all the usual suspects. Let's keep in mind that, at minimum, only half the population might be considered somewhat ignorant, mkay??

Ignorance has no borders. Period.

bullshit
total

some chinese are better off
many are not
yes the worst abuses are gone
but worker safety laws are not enforced at all

just look to china's coal industry

america's 300 mill plus live under a safer sky than the billion chinese
so what's you point ??
america is not perfect .

China's not perfect either. Ask the Chinese. (I assume you're American).

So, what's your solution? What should their employers do? Give them time to self-actualize? Write operas? Paint?

Variants of this are prevalent in every society. In China, given the sheer scale and speed of things - as far as I know, there isn't the single private employer in the West that employs 800,000 people, not even close; and I don't know of any other country where so many hundreds of millions of people see prospects for a significantly better life so quickly so up close - it tends to get proportionally magnified. But the problem is, that magnification gets severely exaggerated and distorted in the West, because not only does it feed convenient stereotypes, but it provides a (temporary, in my view) smug satisfaction that somehow, at the end of the day we know that our lives are superior and our way of doing things is better, we know it all. "Oh, if only the Chinese....."

China will find its true equilibrium, and much faster and more efficiently than some - especially, the increasingly slothful among us - are willing to give them credit for.

My wife is from hong kong
i am from nyc

CHINA is in a very odd scary place right now .
hundreds of millions of poor Han chinese supporting tens of millions richer Han chinese

the tiny ting commie central parry has a triple loaded gun right now at its head .the 2 groups of hans <<have and have nots >add the abused minority groups which can number over a 100 million like the 'GO people "

So the central party bounces from one crisis to an other. I forsee the coal mine deaths causing major riots in the near future ..and many issues like lead paint poisoning and infant powered milk contamination will test the leaders even more .

So don't get me wrong , i wish the chinese a safe passage from communism to a systemm of free elections of some sort

The 1.4 billion crammed people in a space the size of the usa bodes not so well for anybody on this planet.


9

So, how do you suggest they solve this problem?

You mean like pay them more and give them more time off? Brilliant. But where else have I heard that recently? Oh, right, Foxconn execs.

You know, it's almost clever to claim your adversaries are ignorant and when proven wrong try to challenge them with intractable problems to try to "win". Almost.


Yes, because CCTV is a US TV station and Southern Weekly is a British newspaper. Oh wait.


Or it might end up with another revolution. There's a reason that quite a few of the rich in China have their families in the West.

Me, I'm an optimist...I figure they'll manage a soft landing in the growing disparity between have and have nots. I wouldn't be willing to bet my family on it though.

That's silly. The Chinese government is pretty stable. It's very pervasive and very, very well financed. When the USSR collapsed, it was totally broke. China took careful notes and they will not make the same mistake.

If you think about the 1.4 billion Chinese people, actually very few of them want to vote. Some are very angry. But probably more Americans are angry about our government, in my experience. I also take note that we enter more optional wars, and our financial policies are unsustainable. In both respects we can surmise that voters made the wrong choices. Even voters themselves are not pleased with the Obama administration. Meanwhile the Chinese public are probably more satisfied if you took a poll. Putin's popularity in Russia is also high.

Yes, but every 4 years we can vote some other guy (or gal) in that we can be mad at.

The way the government changes there is historically a tad harder on the "outgoing administration".

The CCP has been doing quite well in ruling China the last couple decades and China is quite successful today. But the Chinese take the long view...The Qing Dyansty went from 1644-1912...and was doing quite well for a pretty long time too. This communism thing is still pretty young.

The nightmare scenario for the CCP is another cultural revolution. These 3rd gen leaders lived through the cultural revolution and also took careful notes on how many senior cadre got the ax during the cultural revolution. Either because Mao used it as an opportunity to clean house or simply got pulled down by the mob. The overreaction at Tiananmen, in my opinion, was a direct result of this fear. The cultural revolution also started as a student movement. One that was snowballing and Mao contained by the expedient of running in front of the Mob and screaming "Follow me and get THOSE guys".

Today much of the army is still from the more rural provinces. You know the poor parts. With the huge disparity in standard of living compared to the folks driving BMWs in the cities.

All it takes is one charismatic hardline communist leader with excessive ambition and an economic downturn with civil unrest to call upon the people (and, of course, the people's army) to defend the ideals of communism perverted by the current leadership and the boys in beijing are in a world of hurt. New mob and a new guy running in front of it screaming "Follow me and get THOSE guys".

The fact that 1.4B Chinese may or may not want to vote doesn't play at all into that scenario. Unless you mean voting the old fashioned way with pitchforks and torches.

It's kinda a nightmare scenario for us too. We like China the way it is. As potentially powerful as a peaceful and stable China will be and as much influence as we might lose in Asia and on the world stage we can live with that IMHO. We're the third largest country in terms of land mass and population and in any peaceful world we're still going to be a, if not the, major player. In terms of resources and demographics we are blessed.

Continuing my post (#56) about some of the problems facing China's fantastic growth please review the following:

http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home...s-growth-model

Research - Getting the Numbers Right: International Engineering Education in the United States, China and India

http://www.wadhwa.com/research_gettingthenumbers.html

Kiplinger Business Forcast
7 Reasons Not To Fear China

http://content.kiplinger.com/tools/s...hina_problems#

Yeah I see that, but I don't think China is likely to have a huge economic downturn anytime soon. If they did, there could be trouble. But people know things are a million times better today than during the dismal 1960s. To sacrifice all that could plunge China back into poverty.

There is corruption there, but the CCP is trying to use that to its advantage. They proclaim jailings and killings to punish corruption, to head off this type of anger. I guess we'll see if that is good enough.

Feeling down?
Try some Tetris!

Assuming these workers only work 40 hours a week (I'm guessing they work more) then they were earning $.82/hr. Oh, but they got a 20% raise! Now they're making $.98/hr. Happy times! \

Sorry Steve, but that IS a sweat shop. You can't keep up with demand because you're having trouble finding people that will work at those rates. But hey, maybe you can find someone dying of starvation that will take less. Shameful.

The vast, vast majority of China is still in poverty. All you need to do is take a stroll outside of the city. I don't think you'll want to stay real long though.

Average Wage in China 2005

http://www.worldsalaries.org/china.shtml

World Bank Report

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTE...318950,00.html

Differences between city vs country dwellers:

"Nevertheless, Ma said China is still poor on an income per person basis. Average income for city dwellers in 2009 was 18,858 yuan ($2,700), while in the populous countryside it was just 5,153 yuan ($752)."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_431189.html




Actually Apple does monitor its suppliers and has them comply with better than average conditions that are found in the manufacturing sector.

"In all cases where workers were underpaid—or where the complexity of the pay structure could cause underpayment—we required facilities to complete many actions, including calculation of underpayments, repayment of underpaid wages, and implementation of management systems to ensure accurate payment in the future.

Another common violation we found was underpayment of legally required benefits. We found 57 facilities with deficient payments in worker benefits, such as sick leave, maternity leave, or social insurance for retirement. In all cases, Apple has required management to pay the full amount of facility-paid benefits according to local law.

Audits also revealed 45 facilities where wage deductions were used for disciplinary purposes. While the deductions we discovered may be legal under local laws, Apple has required an end to this practice."

http://images.apple.com/supplierresp...0Report_FF.pdf

Just a quick question what steel mill did you work at and when? What ford assembly plant did you work at and when?

When I worked at gerdau ameristeel in st. paul minnesota in 2008 this is what our conditions were, we worked 8 hour shifts for 6 days on the day shift and 7 days on the night and evening shift, the night and evening shift worked a mandatory 12 hour shift on Saturdays. On Sundays you were paid overtime rates no matter what, anything past 12 hours on a single shift you were paid double time meaning your hourly wage was double. You were guaranteed 2 days off each week. They also had a profit sharing program called partners in performance, they basically had 3 factors, the two main ones I remember are safety and productivity for the day, basically what this program did was it took a percentage each day like 33% or 45%, at the end of the week it would take the average percentage for the week and they would then take that percentage and times it by your gross for the week, they would then take that figure and add it to your pay check as long as you should up to work on time and left on time. Basically people were making an extra $200-500 bucks each week just for showing up on time.

Now was it hard labor and extremely hot? Oh yeah! Was their overtime work available? Oh yea all the time, could do as much as 80 hours each week but you were not under pressure to do overtime then the 12 hour shifts on Saturday.

When I worked at up north plastics in cottage grove Minnesota we had to work 12 hour shifts every single shift, we could only do a maximum of 60 hours a week and we couldn't work longer then 12 hours a day.

Head over to foxconn they are working what 10-12+ shifts shifts every single day except for on Sundays with only average pay and no way for them to attend schools to actually increase their skill set to get out of the job and go on to a better one, then you add in the fact that they can't even socialize or talk to the worker that is sitting or standing right next to them while they are doing the assembly without getting punished by the managers. Ya there are basket ball courts and swimming pools but what good is it if you can't ever really use them?

Is their suicide rate lower than the national average of both China and USA? Yes it is, so then what is the point then on all these suicides at foxconn? The point is that it seems like that almost every single one of the suicides at foxconn was caused by the working conditions at foxconn, its one thing to have a lower than national average suicide rate but its entirely another when pretty much all the suicides at a company are being directly related or caused by a companies working conditions/policies.

So no it is not a sweat shop because they work in modern facilities with air conditioning, but when you look at how many hours they work and are forced to work and then you look at the strict discipline for even attempting to socialize with fellow coworkers while doing the job and then you look at the fact that there pretty much isn't any room for improvement either from a personal standpoint or a professional standpoint because of the fact that they work so many hours on so many days and then you look at how much money they are making before the raises they were given and before the cuts in hours, they were pretty much working in a sweat shop that had air conditioning. No amount of free meals or free housing is going to make them feel like they have any purpose in life nor is it going to give them any motivation to improve themselves. If you bothered to read the interviews they have done of foxconn employees that actually work on the assembly line they will tell you that they pretty much before these increases in wages and cuts in working hours that they felt like mindless robots with no purpose in life.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...-suicides.html

Has china's working conditions been improving? Yes absolutely and in some cases they are major improvements, but at foxconn they are not enough or at least until now they were not enough. As for the money those workers send home, well in some cases, as the one in the link above, they don't really make enough to even bother sending any of it home.

Well, if our economy collapses I can't imagine it would do good things for thiers.


I think it's low probability that anything close to the nightmare scenario happens. On the other hand, cancer with a 95% survival rate still means 1 in 20 end up dying. Not saying that the odds are 5% or 1% or .1% but if you had the means to keep a home in the US and stash your family there would you?