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FBI/CIA knew of plot before 9/11 - Page 2

post #41 of 236
A <a href="http://www.drudgereport.com/flash5.htm" target="_blank">Condoleezza Rice briefing</a> on this.
post #42 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by patmcfar8:
<strong>THT~

And Samantha~

You're telling me that you honestly believe that our own government knew all about the worst terrorist attack in our history and just let it happen? Just let thousands of innocent people die? You can't really believe that?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess you never heard about Pearl Harbor <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
post #43 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>I'm shocked. I can't believe what has unfolded over the past two weeks. Basically, our government, the one that told us that 9/11 came out of the blue, the one that told us there was no advance warning, the one that gave MORE FUNDING to the CIA and FBI for intelligence so this wouldn't happen, KNEW about the terrorist threat before the attacks.

All that talk about 'we need better intelligence because we didn't see this coming' and 'there was nothing we could do' was complete BS.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

What a load. EVERYONE knew about this kind of thing before it happened. It was in a friggin TOM CLANCY book several years ago. G.W. Bush had no more specific information than YOU had on 9/10/01.

This is just another one of those media-hype fests.
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post #44 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>OH MY GOD!!

The CIA and FBI knew that terrorists attacks were planned!?!? Holy shit, that NEVER HAPPENS!!

FEAR! FIRE! FOES!

It's not like bin Laden hadn't killed dozens of our soldiers and dozens of citizens with his terrorist regime in the past. So shocking!

And Bush really wasn't doing his job as president by not magically knowing every piece of evidence prior to a future event. He really isn't the literal visionary (Nostradamus in '04!) we need heading the executive branch.

So basically the big news here is that, in hindsight, we can find a few clues?

Whoop-de-freakin'-do!

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Do it man. Go for it.
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post #45 of 236
One thing I did not add that Rick's post brought tup, was that I do think the government totally misjudged the threat. I can and do believe that people said, "we can't let this cause a panic, think of the fragile economy!" That's not conspiracy to murder, that is however negligence, a serious crime in itself. The government is all too human. Like the rest of us, it was too jaded to take threats on our soil seriously enough before 9/11. (This even after Oklahoma City. )
post #46 of 236
My friend's aunt was going out with an arab man for a few months and shortly before 9/11 he left all of a sudden leaving a note saying "goodbye, don't go on any planes, and don't go into any malls on halloween"(or something to that affect)
she gave the note to the police or FBI or something like that, and its obvious nothing happened halloween in terms of malls...but I think thats pretty freaky

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Wrong Robot ]</p>
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post #47 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by Wrong Robot:
<strong>My friend's aunt was going out with an arab man for a few months and shortly before 9/11 he left all of a sudden leaving a note saying "goodbye, don't go on any planes, and don't go into any malls on halloween"(or something to that affect)
she gave the note to the police or FBI or something like that, and its obvious nothing happened halloween in terms of malls...but I think thats pretty freaky</strong><hr></blockquote>Ooo, my spidey sense for urban legends tingles whenever someone says "my friend's aunt..."

Yup, here 'tis.
<a href="http://www.snopes.com/rumors/mallrisk.htm" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/rumors/mallrisk.htm</A>

[quote]From a chain e-mail:
My friend's friend was dating a guy from Afghanistan up until a month ago. She had a date with him around 9/6 and was stood up. She was understandably upset and went to his home to find it completely emptied. On 9/10, she received a letter from her boyfriend explaining that he wished he could tell her why he had left and that he was sorry it had to be like that. The part worth mentioning is that he BEGGED her not to get on any commercial airlines on 9/11 and to not to go any malls on Halloween. As soon as everything happened on the 11th, she called the FBI and has since turned over the letter.<hr></blockquote>
post #48 of 236
So let's think about this logically. Let's say the FBI knew that there was a chance someone was going to hijack a plane sometime around September 11th. What should they have done? Closed all the airports? No. Put sky marshals on all the planes? There weren't enough. Warn everyone that there might be terrorist activity sometime maybe? No.

Someone please suggest to us what they should have done with this information and stop complaining!
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post #49 of 236
The real problem is the cover-up,the lack of honesty,the corporations working in the shadows,guiding American foreign policy.The fact that the Taliban were being threatened before September 11 suggests that maybe those planning the attacks thought of them as a preemptive strike,not that they were justified in any way-they weren't ,but the truth is that they weren't unprovoked attacks.But of course it is clear that the Taliban are real bastards,one of the more evil governments in world history,but I just don't like the business of American government being done in secret,and I don't like lies.
post #50 of 236
Well i think that the FBI and the CIA have all the symptoms of the threat , but they did not make the diagnosis.
Why did not they make it : it's an another question .

But we can push some explanation :
- this was never arrived before
- they refuse to see this scenario : too great implications if you want to react properly and an excess of optimism in believing that USA was a sanctuary and nobody will be fool enough to attack it.
- all the info did not reach the central agencies : for example a local agencie found strange that arabs where taking lessons of pilotage on airplanes, but the info did not reach the central agencie, one burocrat finding by itself that it was not important.
post #51 of 236
People... Lets not get suckered into debating into this debate of the United States goverment aready know about 11th September 2001 before it happen and unable to do a competent action to deal with it. This kind of information release to the public by the press is only discredit some of the people who worked on the goverment (like George W. Bush for example), maybe they want throw out the Bush administratio?

Anyway. What you should be thinking are:

- Why didn't there were jet fighters launched on that day to intercept the renegade airliners, so that the renegade airliners can be escorted safely to an airport? Remember, this is a basic rule, all of the procedures for this kind of thing is already clearly defined.

- If there were no way escort the renegade airliners to safety, why is that the airliners weren't blown out of the sky before they reached a restricted airspace? The rule of dealing with unauthorized tresspassers are very clearly defined, especially to those with harmful intent.

So... Folks, even without prior information, things can be handle, there would be no aircrafts crashing into any important tall buildings.

And those only about the aircrafts.

<a href="http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews43updates3.html" target="_blank">http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews43updates3.html</a>


The reasons on why the twin towers of the World Trade Center collapsed are totally different things. The average normal sane people who have a scientific knowledge were quite confused when those towers collapsed. They just think this in their head, An aircraft do this? No way! There must be something else. The reasoning of intense fire just won't do.

<a href="http://world.care2.com/jmcmichael/files/" target="_blank">http://world.care2.com/jmcmichael/files/</a>

And as for the Pentagon. Well... Do you see any Boeing in the page below?

<a href="http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm" target="_blank">http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm</a>


And lets not forget the convience of instant avaibility of very nice photos and articles to be printed on newspaper at the side of the world (around 20.000 Kms away) in just a few hours after the incident.

Folks, we are dealing with a giant international organization here. Who can do things more than anything that a small organization can do, and definetly more things than anything that a super power country can do.

Al-Qaeda isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the tools by them.

The United States of America isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the tools by them.

Folks... We really must realize on who's our true enemy is, they will exploit our weakness as soon as we reveal it.
post #52 of 236
[quote]Absolute, complete, total, utter, undeniable bullshit. People who say this have no desire, of ever getting to know who runs this country or making a real difference. I don't care if you're Republican, Democrat, Green or Whig. It's just oh-so easy to assume that this is some kind of conspiracy because you're not bright or talented enough to do anything for others. But it's so easy to point fingers, implicate, pontificate and generally criticize others for a responsibility you have no real ability to actually handle. It's so easy from behind your little desk.<hr></blockquote> blah blah blah

As Applenut said.... perhaps you recall Pearl Harbor?

That stuff that Ari Fleischer was rattling about this morning (5-16) on the CNN White House Briefing was such a load of BS and deliberate lies. Whoever put that dolt in such a position of public responsibility needs firing. Now.

<a href="http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/f_a_zeitung_story.html" target="_blank">http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/f_a_zeitung_story.html</a>
<a href="http://izvestia.ru/rubr.cgi?id=5542&idr=523" target="_blank">http://izvestia.ru/rubr.cgi?id=5542&idr=523</a>
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post #53 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by MarcUK:
<strong>I've always thought the CIA/FBI BUSH knew of the plans, and they wanted it too happen. Maybe they underestimated the scale of the attack, but I was/am damn sure that they knew. Its all about money. A few thousand deaths are of no concern to governments (although for obvious reasons they'd never admit too this). Its all about money/oil and excuses to get Osama. The benefit to the US outweighs the losses as far as govn is concerned.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I just can't accept that. Say what you want about Bush, but I simply cannot believe he could do that. In fact, I just can't believe our government would go that far.....
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post #54 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by G4Dude:
<strong>So let's think about this logically. Let's say the FBI knew that there was a chance someone was going to hijack a plane sometime around September 11th. What should they have done? Closed all the airports? No. Put sky marshals on all the planes? There weren't enough. Warn everyone that there might be terrorist activity sometime maybe? No.

Someone please suggest to us what they should have done with this information and stop complaining!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well for one, they should have put the airforce on alert so that if there was a hijacking they could get to it very quickly. If they knew that the WTC was a possible target (and any others) they should ahve had a contingency plan to protect it. They should have at least made the airports around major targets more secure and even put Air Marshals on planes with people of middle eastern desent on them...

there are a lot of things they could have done--but what did they do? NOTHING... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
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post #55 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:

<strong>I'm shocked... </strong><hr></blockquote>

You probably are. This is pathetic. The one thing we knew on September 11 was that we had suffered an intelligence failure. Here we are now, 8 months later, and Fran is shocked (shocked, I tell you!) to discover that we had a what - an intelligence failure! Id feel better if I thought you were being disingeuous, Fran, but you probably arent.

The FBI and the CIA knew of key elements of the plot but they clearly didnt know enough or they would have stopped it. Maybe they should have been able to figure out what was in the wind. I think thats something that can be argued with some conviction. Thats what they get paid to do after all. But all these half-wit conspiracy theories arent worth the time it takes to read them. And all you people who keep bringing up Pearl Harbor, what specifically are you alleging?
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post #56 of 236
Thread Starter 
[quote]You probably are. This is pathetic. The one thing we knew on September 11 was that we had suffered an intelligence failure. Here we are now, 8 months later, and Fran is shocked (shocked, I tell you!) to discover that we had a what - an intelligence failure! Id feel better if I thought you were being disingeuous, Fran, but you probably arent.<hr></blockquote>

They knew about it. They didn't stop it. It WASN'T an intelligence failure. THEY HAD THE INTELLIGENCE! IT'S IN THEIR DOCUMENTS! They KNEW that terrorists were plotting to get hijack planes and fly them into buildings. They KNEW the suspected terrorists. They KNEW the terrorists were going to get on to planes!

This WASN'T an intelligence issue, it was the FBI and CIA NOT DOING THEIR JOBS!!!
post #57 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by spaceman_spiff:
<strong>

And all you people who keep bringing up Pearl Harbor, what specifically are you alleging?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Refer to this non-conspiracy page for the full story and great info.
<a href="http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/RD-PEARL.html" target="_blank">http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/RD-PEARL.html</a>

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
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post #58 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by digix:
<strong>Folks, we are dealing with a giant international organization here. Who can do things more than anything that a small organization can do, and definetly more things than anything that a super power country can do.

Al-Qaeda isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the tools by them.

The United States of America isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the tools by them.

Folks... We really must realize on who's our true enemy is, they will exploit our weakness as soon as we reveal it.</strong><hr></blockquote>


So...who is "they" or "them"? People who misinterpret the evidence and twist the truth? Armchair generals, architects or forensics "experts"? The rumors and lies has reached idiocy...

<a href="http://www.linkydinky.com/20billsecrets.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.linkydinky.com/20billsecrets.shtml</a>

Face it. They couldn't bring the Towers down the first time and went with "Plan B". They learned from their mistakes the first time and prepared their new "soldiers" well. This attack was a long and elabrate terrorist act that will baffle us for years to come.

Terrorists are dishonest, malicious and determined criminals. In fact, I get this feeling that another attack is coming soon...don't know where or when, but when we bicker and fall back into complacency
...that's when they stike again.

That's all I'll say on this subject. I lost a lot of faith in everything after 9|11.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Artman @_@ ]</p>
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post #59 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>
They knew about it. They didn't stop it. It WASN'T an intelligence failure. THEY HAD THE INTELLIGENCE! IT'S IN THEIR DOCUMENTS! They KNEW that terrorists were plotting to get hijack planes and fly them into buildings. They KNEW the suspected terrorists. They KNEW the terrorists were going to get on to planes!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fran, will you please pull your head out? Last August Bush received an intelligence briefing that Al Qaeda might try to hijack some planes. They didn't have any dates or targets or any idea about methods. Where in the documents was there any mention of box cutters? Where is there a mention of time and place? There was no way to even know if they were going to hijack a domestic plane or not. The next day the same briefing was passed on to the intelligence committees on Capitol Hill. Did these members of Congress also KNOW of the plot and do nothing?

The documents you are so hyperventilated about only show that they had some information. They were a step or two behind the bad guys. Nobody put all this information together. Gathering information is part of the job of intelligence. Clearly the FBI and the CIA had some success in this regard. They failed, however to properly analyze the data they had. That's the second and probably most important part of intelligence. Insist all you want that this wasn't an intelligence failure but that's what it was.

Guess what? I know that the terrorists aren't done with us yet. I KNOW something else is being planned. A hell of a lot of good that does me.
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post #60 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by Robertp:
<strong>
Refer to this non-conspiracy page for the full story and great info.</strong>
<a href="http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/RD-PEARL.html" target="_blank">http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/RD-PEARL.html</a>
<hr></blockquote>

Thank you. This is a very good precis of the events leading up to Peal Harbor but I don't think this history is what is being suggested by some of our posters.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: spaceman_spiff ]</p>
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post #61 of 236
Thread Starter 
[quote]Where in the documents was there any mention of box cutters? Where is there a mention of time and place? There was no way to even know if they were going to hijack a domestic plane or not.<hr></blockquote>

Guess what? We don't know! The only reason the document about Moussaui ever got out was because he is on trial and they are using it as evidence against him saying he was part of the 9/11 conspiracy. There could be other things we don't know about- that's why we need the investigation.
post #62 of 236
The Bushies are now warning Congress to "be careful" with any investigations. They're outraged that anyone could even possibly entertain the idea that anything could have been done.

It's pathetic. These guys have this outlook that they are beyond criticism. Next I expect Ari to come out and again tell Americans to watch what they say and watch what they do.
post #63 of 236
Thread Starter 
To be clearer, we need to specifically investigate the FBI and CIA. I don't care about the White House, I want to know how much these guys screwed up and whether or not it could happen again. Maybe they didn't screw up as much as the 'evidence' now suggests. But then again, maybe they screwed up worse. We need to find out.
post #64 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>
Guess what? We don't know! </strong><hr></blockquote>

Right. All the terrorists are dead now.

[quote]<strong>The only reason the document about Moussaui ever got out was because he is on trial and they are using it as evidence against him saying he was part of the 9/11 conspiracy. There could be other things we don't know about- that's why we need the investigation.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which is why he should have been tried before a military tribunal. And the fact that Moussaui was already in jail when the terrorists struck illustrates my earlier point. Clearly the FBI was onto something when he was arrested. But they didn't know the full dimensions of what was being planned.

As for the need for investigations, you aren't very persuasive. You do realize, don't you, that going off half-cocked on some wild-eyed, open-ended investigation could easily undermine whatever successful intelligence efforts we've had so far.
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post #65 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>To be clearer, we need to specifically investigate the FBI and CIA. I don't care about the White House, I want to know how much these guys screwed up and whether or not it could happen again. Maybe they didn't screw up as much as the 'evidence' now suggests. But then again, maybe they screwed up worse. We need to find out.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They did screw up. Changes do need to be made. I have no problem with this. It just shouldn't be treated like some kind of political football.
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post #66 of 236
Thread Starter 
I'm not saying it should be used as a political football. Do you see me saying that we should launch a major investigation into what the White House knew beforehand? No.

I want to see the FBI and CIA held accountable for their mistakes. After all, they were the ones back in September who said, "We had no prior knowledge of this" and then were given HUGE budget increases. They lied to us, obviously, and now we need to find out the truth.
post #67 of 236
Wow, this is actually a very interesting thread! Great examples of people freely voicing their opinions...

Heres something to think about. Believe it or not, our corrupt government filled with evil white men out to get you, and kill your babies, (sense some sarcasm?) actually manages to get it right sometimes. Our security agencies often thwart terrorist activities, saving lives, without you ever knowing about it. The CIA prides its self in the fact that, we the people, only hear about the things they screwed up on. Is there room for improvement? Yes of course, one place is increased communication between the intelligence services. But on thing to remember is that people talk too much. Meaning the more people who about classified information the less classified it becomes. The Navy has always had an unofficial saying Loose lips sink ships.

Everyone gets emotional when major tragedies like September 11th occur. The instinct is that there most be some one/person or organization responsible. Sometimes, somethings are unpreventable. Do you really think what those men on Sep 11th were very difficult? I happen to travel for work about 90% of the year, and have before and, after the 11th taken onboard planes (unintentionally) things just as lethal as box cutters. There are a couple of airline pilots in my family who, after the 11th explained to me how easy it would be to fly a large plane into a building.

Sorry for the rant, but just couldnt keep quiet on this one.
post #68 of 236
<strong>Originally posted by Fran441:
It was enough to get Moussaui, wasn't it? Plus, don't you think that the government had the OBLIGATION to tell the people who ran the WTC about the possible threat? Not even that was done.

Completely bungled.</strong>

It was <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/913687.html" target="_blank">worse</a> than this. If it wasn't for a dogged flight instructor, Moussaoui wouldn't have even been caught! They didn't even let the local FBI office search <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/730512.html" target="_blank">Moussaoui's property</a> after he was arrested, even after learning that he had links to terrorism.

If Sept. 11 wasn't a case for the FBI, CIA and NSA to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up, then I don't know what is. Mind that I wouldn't mind a majority of the government agencies to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up though.
post #69 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by THT:
<strong>... They didn't even let the local FBI office search <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/730512.html" target="_blank">Moussaoui's property</a> after he was arrested, even after learning that he had links to terrorism.</strong><hr></blockquote>

From the article you linked:

[quote]... the request for the warrant was denied on grounds that evidence gathered to date didn't meet the civil liberties threshold of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the sources said.<hr></blockquote>

Maybe in this particular matter it's the law that needs to be reviewed.

[quote]<strong>If Sept. 11 wasn't a case for the FBI, CIA and NSA to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up, then I don't know what is..</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair enough.
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post #70 of 236
<strong>Originally posted by spaceman_spiff:
... the request for the warrant was denied on grounds that evidence gathered to date didn't meet the civil liberties threshold of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the sources said.

Maybe in this particular matter it's the law that needs to be reviewed.
</strong>

The article also said this:

"After his arrest, the FBI ran Moussaoui's name through an international law-enforcement network and learned from French intelligence officials that he was suspected of having ties to a terrorist group, law-enforcement sources said."

And succeeding the statement you quoted, it says:

"The law permits such warrants, wiretaps and other surveillance measures only if there is evidence that the suspect is an agent of a foreign power or a terrorist group."

Maybe the FBI should have worked harder.
post #71 of 236
I am aware of the magnitude of the 9-11 tragedy, but why have people waited until now to say the FBI, CIA, JUSTICE DEPT, and so on need to be investigated, fired, arrested etc. I remember OKC, RUBY RIDGE, WACO,there was no investigation into these matters and questions of corruption, lies, coverups were evident then. I myself have been laughed at or flamed (sort of) for my veiws on the gov., gun rights, etc by some of the very people posting to this topic suggesting that our great government had insight to the possibility of events leading to 9-11 and did nothing. HHMMMM sounds like a conspiracy to me.
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post #72 of 236
Thread Starter 
It's simple: It was easy to believe the FBI and CIA were telling the truth when they said they had no prior knowledge of the attacks being planned.

But now that we know it was a lie, we need to find out what else they are lying about and keeping from us. Yes, it was a tragedy, but don't at least the families of the victims deserve to know what they really knew beforehand?
post #73 of 236
<strong>Originally posted by Robertp:
I am aware of the magnitude of the 9-11 tragedy, but why have people waited until now to say the FBI, CIA, JUSTICE DEPT, and so on need to be investigated, fired, arrested etc. I remember OKC, RUBY RIDGE, WACO,there was no investigation into these matters and questions of corruption, lies, coverups were evident then.</strong>

I don't believe in conspiracies, lies or that the FBI, CIA, DOJ, et al are corrupted. Any sort of belief that government knew beforehand [of the actual plot and events to come] requires some extraordinary evidence.

Perhaps at the high pay grades there is a bit of corruption, but at the level of the real work [where they are supposed to figure this stuff out], it's most likely incompetence. And when that happens, it becomes really dangerous. Only the high pay grades can change that, and we're at a stage that they can't.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: THT ]</p>
post #74 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by Robertp:
<strong>I remember OKC, RUBY RIDGE, WACO,there was no investigation into these matters</strong><hr></blockquote> :confused:
There were Senate Judiciary committee hearings, special Danforth commissions, firing of FBI agents, grillings of Reno and call after call for her resignation, and on and on.
post #75 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by THT:

I don't believe in conspiracies, lies or that the FBI, CIA, DOJ, et al are corrupted. Any sort of belief that government knew beforehand [of the actual plot and events to come] requires some extraordinary evidence.


Perhaps at the high pay grades there is a bit of corruption, but at the level of the real work [where they are supposed to figure this stuff out], it's most likely incompetence. And when that happens, it becomes really dangerous. Only the high pay grades can change that, and we're at a stage that they can't.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: THT ][/QB]<hr></blockquote>

I disagree, it is in THE HIGHER PAY GRADES that corruption begins, and flows downhill from there. And sometimes, common sense is the best evidence.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
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post #76 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by Rick1138:
<strong>The real problem is the cover-up,the lack of honesty,the corporations working in the shadows,guiding American foreign policy.The fact that the Taliban were being threatened before September 11 suggests that maybe those planning the attacks thought of them as a preemptive strike,not that they were justified in any way-they weren't ,but the truth is that they weren't unprovoked attacks.But of course it is clear that the Taliban are real bastards,one of the more evil governments in world history,but I just don't like the business of American government being done in secret,and I don't like lies.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Give me a break!

"It's a conspiracy!"
Never had ONE lesson.
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Never had ONE lesson.
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post #77 of 236
Lets face it, here.

The CIA and the FBI have severely bungled this whole affair. And it cost lots of innocent lives.

Don't believe for a second that the CIA had no idea about this plot. We will never know how much they were onto, but Egyptian intelligence, Israeili intelligence, and who knows who else all had pretty specific information, enough for some Israeli agents to have been tailing some of the hijackers in Florida.

Some of them were on FBI watchlists.

There was already one Al Qaeda attempt on the WTC.

In 1994 an Air France jet was hijacked by Algerian extremists with the intention of crashing it into Paris (recently made public, but you can bet the CIA knew about it). The plane was grounded in Marseille for re-fueling and the hijack was thwarted by French SWAT teams. Suicide planes are not something "completely new." They are the logical continuation of explosive belts, trucks packed with TNT, etc.

They had a man in custody with known ties to terrorist organisations who was learning to fly a passenger jet maybe into the WTC or government buildings. This man responded to questioning like a raving lunatic hell bent on death for Allah.

Of course, the FBI could not have know what EXACTLY was going to happen, but they had enough info to do this:

1. Contact all USA flight schools and ask about suspicious Middle-eastern men recently enrolled (some of them strangely refused to learn how to land a plane, some were incredibly bad pilots, some wer arrogant and swaggering.)
2. Make the rounds and bust a few of them for visa violations (many had overstayed student visas and were no longer enrolled)
3. Presto! Plot is disrupted.
4. Shake down Moussaoui and other arrested on visa violations to get some info.
5. Let air traffic controllers know that a plane with its transponder off, or inexplicably turning around 180 degrees for no reason, or otherwise acting strange, should be INSTANTLY reported to the Air Force.

That's what we're paying them to do. Just to be on top of the situation. No miracles.

It is one thing to be patriotic, but this is just the latest CIA botch job in a long string. You can bet that heads have rolled at high levels of the CIA and FBI, and rightly so.
post #78 of 236
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong> :confused:
There were Senate Judiciary committee hearings, special Danforth commissions, firing of FBI agents, grillings of Reno and call after call for her resignation, and on and on.</strong><hr></blockquote>

AKA smokescreen tactics to appease the naive public that they were being "just" in disciplining officers who were out of line. But I know your stance BRussell, your great government would never do anything injustly or corrupt
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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post #79 of 236
The FBI warned that Islamic Fundamentalists with ties to Osama Bin Laden were being trained to fly planes with the possibility of hijacking them. Memos were sent requesting that the people obtaining visas specifically for the purpose of getting flight training should have their backgrounds checked.

However, some of the hijackers recieved their approval forms 6 months after they'd died flying the planes into the buildings.

It seems much of the legislation that is being passed now is going to prohibit innocent people more than any terrorist. I don't mind waiting in line to get my ass felt up, or my shoes sniffed but they still don't even scan the checked luggage? That's dumb.

<a href="http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2002/02-1-133.html" target="_blank">http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2002/02-1-133.html</a>

<a href="http://www.usbc.org/info/everything/0302terrorextension.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usbc.org/info/everything/0302terrorextension.htm</a>

<a href="http://detnews.com/2002/editorial/0204/02/a17-453212.htm" target="_blank">http://detnews.com/2002/editorial/0204/02/a17-453212.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/031khzlw.asp" target="_blank">http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/031khzlw.asp</a>

The system is broken.

You can't really blame Bush or Clinton. And whoever brought Clinton into this is desperate. As much of a scumbag as Clinton is, he isn't part of this topic.
post #80 of 236
<strong>Originally posted by Robertp:
I disagree, it is in THE HIGHER PAY GRADES that corruption begins, and flows downhill from there. And sometimes, common sense is the best evidence.
</strong>

No, can't say I would agree. I always take the tact of never attributing to malice and conspiracy when incompetence and negligence will do just fine.

And the corruption I see happening falls more into the money sort of thing, not malevolence.
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