or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Darwin's idea of "Survival of the fittest" debunked...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Darwin's idea of "Survival of the fittest" debunked... - Page 5

post #161 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The issue is about force Einstein. Haven't you got that yet. Jesus commanded people to be generous and kind of their own heart and volition. He didn't command people to "go steal from a bunch of people who you think should be helping out and could spare the money so you can feel better about your alleged kindness and 'generosity.'"



Before preaching what the Bible says, perhaps you should read it and understand it first.

Without the roads the jews and the Romans built from the taxes they collected, Jesus would have been stuck in the mud before he could have made pebbles into crack cocaine, oh, it was water into wine sorry. my mistake.
The people who wrote the bible were educated by TAXPAYER $. Yep, the truth is a bitch.
yes I want oil genocide.
Reply
yes I want oil genocide.
Reply
post #162 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Yep, the truth is a bitch.

How...ummm...civilized.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #163 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes dear.

Well. That showed me.

You might as well have just written "You are right" and had done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


P.S. I didn't say it was the "the definition of 'tyranny'".

Oh. I see. You just thought that when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that was tyranny in action, and this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator."

Moon landings? THE FRUIT OF TYRANNY. Heart transplant? THE FRUIT OF TYRANNY. Eradication of smallpox? THE FRUIT OF TYRANNY.

Winning the Second World War? THE FRUIT OF TYRANNY.

ANYTHING PAID FOR BY TAXES FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE NATION OR THE WORLD. TYRANNY.

MJ1970. What the fuck do Americans have they can actually be proud of? Anything?
post #164 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You might as well have just written "You are right" and had done.

But I don't lie. So that wouldn't have worked.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Oh. I see. You just thought that when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that was tyranny in action, and this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator."

Moon landings? THE FRUIT OF TYRANNY. Heart transplant? THE FRUIT OF TYRANNY. Eradication of smallpox? THE FRUIT OF TYRANNY.

Winning the Second World War? THE FRUIT OF TYRANNY.

ANYTHING PAID FOR BY TAXES FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE NATION OR THE WORLD. TYRANNY.

WHAT THE FUCK DO AMERICANS HAVE TO BE PROUD OF?

Just because you're okay with it and some of what is accomplishes, doesn't make it not tyranny.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #165 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

How...ummm...civilized.

Taxes are theft ...... ummmm....how educated.
yes I want oil genocide.
Reply
yes I want oil genocide.
Reply
post #166 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Taxes are theft ...... ummmm....how educated.

Yes, dear.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #167 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, dear.

I liked our gay sex last night, Your crucifix makes for a great anal stimulator.
yes I want oil genocide.
Reply
yes I want oil genocide.
Reply
post #168 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

MJ1970. What the fuck do Americans have they can actually be proud of? Anything?

Well, it used to be, that America was about liberty. It was about freedom. That is something to be proud for sure! However, it has slowly, almost imperceptibly drifted away from this ideal. It has softened and gotten fat and lazy and comfortable. It decided that ideas like "end can justify the means" and "breaking a few eggs while making an omelet" are okay ideas to try and run a civilized society by. Those are things to not be proud of.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #169 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

I liked our gay sex last night, Your crucifix makes for a great anal stimulator.

Well I don't know who you had gay sex with, but it sure wasn't me. Yikes! But if that's your thing and you enjoyed it, I guess more power to you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #170 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But I don't lie. So that wouldn't have worked.

Just because you're okay with it and some of what is accomplishes, doesn't make it not tyranny.

You would rather that Americans did not have to pay for the things that made it great.

All its accomplishments. Payed for by its people. With taxes.

Was America under tyranny in the 1950s when you were eradicating polio and smallpox with tax money?

Was America under tyranny in the 1940s when you were defeating fascism with tax money?

Was America under tyranny in the 1960s when you were putting people on the moon?

Was America under tyranny in the 1970s when America had the highest standards of living anywhere in the world?

Did you first use the word tyranny about your nation when Barack Obama was elected?
post #171 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You would rather that Americans did not have to pay for the things that made it great.

Does your faulty deductive reasoning plague only in these forums or is it something that pervades your whole life?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Did you first use the word tyranny about your nation when Barack Obama was elected?

No.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #172 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, dear.

Look. I have to tell you. Man to man.

"Yes, dear. " is a fucking shit comeback. Seriously. It's basically announcing, in the parlance de nos jours, "I have been pwnd and I am your bitch."

I thought you should know.
post #173 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Look. I have to tell you. Man to man.

"Yes, dear. " is a fucking shit comeback. Seriously. It's basically announcing, in the parlance de nos jours, "I have been pwnd and I am your bitch."

I thought you should know.

Yes, dear.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #174 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, dear.

You're handling them quite well. You can tell when they ratchet the rhetoric up a notch that they're pissed they're not getting to you.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #175 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You're handling them quite well. You can tell when they ratchet the rhetoric up a notch that they're pissed they're not getting to you.

Indeed. There's a lot of frothing at the mouth and spittle laced computer screens. First BR, then Mumbo. It's hilarious actually. Better than a movie and easier than a video game.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #176 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Does your faulty deductive reasoning plague only in these forums or is it something that pervades your whole life?
.

You wrote that when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that was tyranny in action, and this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator."

You have called taxes "stealing."

You wrote that "Just because you're okay with it and some of what is accomplishes, doesn't make it not tyranny."

So. Pretty clear. Taxes are stealing. Social obligations met through taxes are tyranny.

You want to live a country that doesn't pay taxes, right? Because taxes are "stealing." And that is living under "tyranny."

And yet everything that made your nation great was paid for by taxes.

And you have the sauce to question my reasoning.
post #177 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Indeed. There's a lot of frothing at the mouth and spittle laced computer screens. First BR, then Mumbo. It's hilarious actually. Better than a movie and easier than a video game.

I'm halfway through a bag of popcorn.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #178 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, dear.

Yeah, like that. Exactly like that.

It's basically saying "I have nothing. I have been, in the parlance de nos jours, pwnd. I am your bitch."

I've warned you, in a friendly way.

I can't stop you writing that, clearly, but you should know that every time you do, I and everyone else who happens to read it, will be thinking "Oh, look, he got pwnd. What a pussy."

post #179 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

And you have the sauce to question my reasoning.

Actually I do and will continue to as long as it is fallacious. But, for now, maybe I'll let you ponder how exactly it is fallacious. It's quite clear if you read through the posts. Go ahead and read them. Go ahead and see if you can see things like the non sequitars and the question begging. I'll wait. I won't hold my breath, but I'll wait.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #180 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Yeah, like that. Exactly like that.

It's basically saying "I have nothing. I have been, in the parlance de nos jours, pwnd. I am your bitch."

I've warned you, in a friendly way.

I can't stop you writing that, clearly, but you should know that every time you do, I and everyone else who happens to read it, will be thinking "Oh, look, he got pwnd. What a pussy."


Yes, dear.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #181 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually I do and will continue to as long as it is fallacious. But, for now, maybe I'll let you ponder how exactly it is fallacious. It's quite clear if you read through the posts. Go ahead and read them. Go ahead and see if you can see things like the non sequitars and the question begging. I'll wait. I won't hold my breath, but I'll wait.

[head desk]

OK.

We'll go through in the easiest steps.

A question. A simple question.

Do you believe that when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that is "tyranny" in action, and that this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator."

This should be easy, since you wrote these words.
post #182 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, dear.

This is your first time on the internet?
post #183 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

[head desk]

OK.

We'll go through in the easiest steps.

A question. A simple question.

Do you believe that when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that is "tyranny" in action, and that this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator."

This should be easy, since you wrote these words.

So you're not going to re-examine your posts to find your fallacies? OK. Fine. I don't find this surprising, but I must admit it's disappointing.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #184 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is your first time on the internet?

No, is it yours?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #185 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So you're not going to re-examine your posts to find your fallacies? OK. Fine. I don't find this surprising, but I must admit it's disappointing.

Then help me.

Show me where my thinking is fallacious.

We'll go through it step by step and we'll start here, with this question.

Do you believe that when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that is "tyranny" in action, and that this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator."
post #186 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Then help me.

Show me where my thinking is fallacious.

OK. Sure. Let's start with this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

And yet everything that made your nation great was paid for by taxes.

Do you see anything fallacious in that statement at all. Now, mind you, you may need to zoom out and forget that you said it and not be defensive about it in order to see it.


Next let's look at this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

You would rather that Americans did not have to pay for the things that made it great.

Again, you may need to zoom out and look at things objectively in order to see it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #187 of 450
One thing at a time.

I asked you a question first. I asked it twice. You don't respond to a question twice-asked with a question of your own. There's no honour in it.

Do you believe that when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that is "tyranny" in action, and that this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator."

Again, this should be simple, since these are your words.
post #188 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Do you believe that when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that is "tyranny" in action, and that this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator."

Yes. Now back to my post. Do you see the fallacies embedded in your statements?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #189 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes.

Excellent.

Now. Do you believe that taxes are "stealing"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Do you see the fallacies embedded in your statements?

No.

Many of America's greatest achievements were paid for by taxes.

I'm talking about putting a man on the moon and defeating fascism in the Second World War. These were two of humanity's greatest achievements. These things define your nation, and they should, they're things to be proud of.

If you believe that when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that is "tyranny" in action, and that this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator" then you believe that these were the fruit of tyranny.

If you can see a fallacy in there, you're being pretty fucking kind to yourself, you Randian robot.
post #190 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Excellent.

Now. Do you believe that taxes are "stealing"?

Yes. I think I made this quite clear. Now you're just getting annoying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No.

Hmmm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Many of America's greatest achievements were paid for by taxes.

Tsk Tsk Tsk. Now you are slightly changing the statement. Perhaps intentionally. Perhaps it's a result of sloppy thinking. Not sure yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

These things define your nation

You're doing it again here. Sure you don't see it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

If you can see a fallacy in there,

No. I'm trying to point you to where you've committed some fallacies but you seem to be ignoring them.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #191 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


No. I'm trying to point you to where you've committed some fallacies but you seem to be ignoring them.

No, you're not. You're writing "tsk tsk" and "hmmm" and calling me annoying and accusing me of engaging in "sloppy thinking" or of being intentionally lax.

I haven't got a clue what you're trying to say. You haven't actually made a point or specifically adduced a single phrase. I do not have a clue where my logic has failed.

Many of America's greatest achievements were paid for by taxes. This is true. Whether I've changed my statement or not, this is still a fact.

The moon landings and the victory in the Second World War define your nation's greatness. Again, there can be no argument with this.

And yet these things were paid for by taxes. They are the fruit of tyranny since when "a society collectively decides that some things are worth pursuing for everyone's benefit" that is "tyranny" in action, and that this would be true "whether it is executed by a "democracy" or by an individual dictator"

I'm only getting started, by the way.

I very much want you to help me by showing me where my reasoning is "fallacious."
post #192 of 450
Hey, MJ1970.

Was putting a man on the moon the fruit of tyranny?
post #193 of 450
Hey, MJ1970.

Paying taxes is stealing. You'd rather not do it.

I understand this.

But would you rather live in a country where taxes are optional, like Somalia, or Sierra Leone, or Nigeria, or in a country that can put a man on the moon?
post #194 of 450
Hey, MJ1970.

You know you live in a country with no smallpox or polio?

OK. And these things were eradicated because your society collectively decided that some things were worth pursuing for everyone's benefit and everyone chipped in with their taxes?

Would you rather live in a tyranny, like the United States of America, or in Zambia?
post #195 of 450
Hey, MJ1970.

You know how it's illegal for two men to get married in the United States of America?

My god. That must really, really annoy you. How can the state be so tyrannical? Interfere in the happiness of its citizens.

Have you been on the marches? I hope you're writing letters and agitating. SOLIDARITY WITH AMERICA'S HOMOSEXUALS!
post #196 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No, you're not.

Well, fair enough, I was trying to isolate where the fallacies existed to see whether or not you could detect them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You're writing "tsk tsk" and "hmmm" and calling me annoying and accusing me of engaging in "sloppy thinking" or of being intentionally lax.

Correct. Very good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I haven't got a clue what you're trying to say. You haven't actually made a point or specifically adduced a single phrase. I do not have a clue where my logic has failed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Many of America's greatest achievements were paid for by taxes. This is true. Whether I've changed my statement or not, this is still a fact.

Let's start here. Your two statements do differ and in an important way. Either way they both are making an important mistake:

"And yet everything that made your nation great was paid for by taxes."

and

"Many of America's greatest achievements were paid for by taxes."

These both contain a fallacy called "begging the question" or, more casually "assuming the point." In these statements you are assuming a couple of different points including what has made America great and that all of the achievements you speak of are, in point of fact, great. You say so much here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

The moon landings and the victory in the Second World War define your nation's greatness. Again, there can be no argument with this.

What you are also doing is offering an opinion as objective, undebatable fact. This is fallacious also.

Both of these claims that all (or any) of the specific items you listed are in fact great, that they are in fact what has made America great and, finally, that the only path to their achievement is through taxation. Now, I will grant that, some of these things might only have been achievable through taxation (e.g., wars are almost always necessarily paid for through taxation) but others are far more debatable as to a) whether they were great, necessary and worthwhile achievements (e.g., moon landing), or b) necessarily accomplished by government action (e.g., disease eradication).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I'm only getting started, by the way.

I have no doubt of it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I very much want you to help me by showing me where my reasoning is "fallacious."

Now let me go to the other statement that I accused of being fallacious:

"You would rather that Americans did not have to pay for the things that made it great."

I have already address the "things that made America great" part above. Here I will only address the non sequitar contained within this statement. A non sequitar means, basically, "it does not follow." In other words, you conclusion does not follow from the premise. Your conclusion here is that I "would rather that Americans did not have to pay for the things that made it great." This is based on the premise that I oppose taxation. You are assuming here that taxation is the only ay to pay for great things to be achieved. You are also assuming that I would rather Americans did not pay for great things to be achieved. Both of these are incorrect conclusions, and neither logically follow from the premise.

Now, is this becoming more clear?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #197 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

But would you rather live in a country where taxes are optional, like Somalia, or Sierra Leone, or Nigeria, or in a country that can put a man on the moon?

I would prefer to live in a nation where the government in minimized to its proper role, that of protecting the life, liberty and property of its citizens from both foreign and domestic aggressors and where individual liberty is maximized and where the population is one of high moral standing.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #198 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, fair enough, I was trying to isolate where the fallacies existed to see whether or not you could detect them.



Now, is this becoming more clear?

Ah. You're resorting to syntax.

OK. We'll simplify. I very much want you to help me with my logic.

I think we can both agree that putting a man on the moon is one of our species' most extraordinary achievements.

Do you not agree that this achievement helps to define America's greatness?
post #199 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You know how it's illegal for two men to get married in the United States of America?

Yes. Well in some parts I believe it is now legal. Vermont? Massachusetts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

My god. That must really, really annoy you. How can the state be so tyrannical? Interfere in the happiness of its citizens.

I've commented in more detail about my position on this subject in another thread. I'll refrain from the details here, you can search for the other if you really care about what I think. In short though, yes, I do believe it is wrong for the government to inject itself and interfere in the voluntary relationships among consenting adults. I believe government should get out of the "marriage" business altogether.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #200 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Ah. You're resorting to syntax.

Incorrect. I'm focused on the logic of your statements and claims.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

OK. We'll simplify. I very much want you to help me with my logic.

I have tried in the previous post. Given the quickness of your response I question whether you have taken the time to really read and digest and understand it.

Having said that, I will allow this thread to return to its regularly schedule programming.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Darwin's idea of "Survival of the fittest" debunked...