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Darwin's idea of "Survival of the fittest" debunked... - Page 3

post #81 of 450
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Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

But why teach unsubstantiated beliefs in a classroom as if they were true?

The public schools should teach what can be backed-up with observation and evidence... and teach that new evidence may (and has in the past) lead us to change what we believe to be true.

Perhaps they should, but there are probably lots of areas where they don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Religion is the exact opposite... it requires belief with NO evidence, and any contrary evidence must be ignored and treated as false, no matter the proof.

This is not true and is a caricature of religion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

It has no business being taught in public schools except as a study on human psychology, or as part of a philosophy class. Please stop confusing it with science... which the study of evolution IS.

If you want your kids to believe in fairy-tales, then send them to church somewhere. Mine don't need to be told that they should believe in a god that cannot be observed in any way, for which there is no supporting evidence, simply because some "priest" said to believe it.

So here again we bump up against a big problem with government schools...everyone wants things done their way, and everything things they should have a say in it because their money is being used to pay for it. End the public schools, give the money back to the parents, let them each chose how, where and what to educate their own kids. End of story. End of debate. End of problem.

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post #82 of 450
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Do you believe dinosaurs existed? If so, why were they never mentioned in the Bible? Didn't God create them as well?

You need to be careful here. Just because something wasn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean the Bible is saying it didn't happen or exist. That's a fallacious conclusion and I think you probably know that.

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post #83 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You need to be careful here. Just because something wasn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean the Bible is saying it didn't happen or exist. That's a fallacious conclusion and I think you probably know that.

Really? Then why spend all the time talking about pork and shellfish? Why bother telling Noah to save animals? I dunno. If God took the time to create dinosaurs and allow them to rule the Earth for millions of years before he got the photocopier out to make humans... sounds like an awfully long prototyping stage.

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post #84 of 450
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Really?

Yes, really.


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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Then why spend all the time talking about pork and shellfish? Why bother telling Noah to save animals?

I don't know. Ask the author. But, again, just because A is mention but B is not does not mean that the text is saying B does not exist or did not happen.

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post #85 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, really.

I don't know. Ask the author. But, again, just because A is mention but B is not does not mean that the text is saying B does not exist or did not happen.

That's the beauty of a work of fiction. Anything can happen, and any reason can be given to support the internal logic.

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post #86 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

That's the beauty of a work of fiction. Anything can happen, and any reason can be given to support the internal logic.

Well, setting aside your assumption that the Bible is a work of fiction for a moment, what I'm saying applies equally to works of non-fiction.

Let me give an example. Let's say that you read a news story about a person who got robbed on the street one day. This article doesn't mention the hot dog stand that existed nearby the robbery. Two things:

1. Just because the article did not mention the hot dog stand doesn't mean the hot dog stand didn't exist.

2. Just because the article did not mention the hot dog stand doesn't mean the author is denying the existence of the hot dog stand.

Get it?

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post #87 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, setting aside your assumption that the Bible is a work of fiction for a moment, what I'm saying applies equally to works of non-fiction.

Let me give an example. Let's say that you read a news story about a person who got robbed on the street one day. This article doesn't mention the hot dog stand that existed nearby the robbery. Two things:

1. Just because the article did not mention the hot dog stand doesn't mean the hot dog stand didn't exist.

2. Just because the article did not mention the hot dog stand doesn't mean the author is denying the existence of the hot dog stand.

Get it?

Yes, I do get it. Those things that were beyond the experience of those who actually wrote the Bible chapters are not included in the descriptions of the world they knew. Take a close look at this passage from Genesis:

Quote:
And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. 20 And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens." 21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. 24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food."

There isn't a whole lot there in terms of detail, except where birds, cattle, fish were concerned. The most telling thing about the authors: They write about what they know. What they don't know, they make up or lack in detail.

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post #88 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Yes, I do get it. Those things that were beyond the experience of those who actually wrote the Bible chapters are not included in the descriptions of the world they knew.

I don't think you do get what I'm saying, especially if the above statement is a reflection of your understanding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

The most telling thing about the authors: They write about what they know. What they don't know, they make up.

But you don't seem to recognize the logical leap you're making here. You are assuming that the writers didn't know about something (dinosaurs) and therefore didn't write about them. But you have no evidence of this. All you can claim is that they didn't write about them. The rest is conjecture about why. You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that they didn't write about them because they didn't know about them. Am I correct or incorrect in what you are concluding?

You are also assuming they are making stuff up. From what do you draw this claim?

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post #89 of 450
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

So how many classes in Wiccan beliefs are you or your children willing to sit through? I think it would be interesting, myself.

Far more by an order of magnitude than all the secular evolution classes I was forced to pass even though I ignored the propaganda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

So, maybe God is no longer interested in the affairs of humans and Earth. Maybe he split. Maybe his job is done and we need to carry on without him?

Spoke to Him last week. So did billions of other Christians. We're good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

SAnd yet so many Christians believe alcohol is the devil's brew. Seems like a lot of inconsistencies in the rock-solid foundation.

No; you're mixed up... Christians are cool with spirits; our Lord even delivered the wine for a wedding! It's the world of Islam that is hung up with booze!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Do you believe dinosaurs existed? If so, why were they never mentioned in the Bible? Didn't God create them as well?

Lots of creatures are not specifically mentioned in the Bible; that does not mean they never existed.
post #90 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Far more by an order of magnitude than all the secular evolution classes I was forced to pass even though I ignored the propaganda.

So, you're cool with Wiccans, Satanists, humanists, atheists, polytheists, etc.?

Quote:
Spoke to Him last week. So did billions of other Christians. We're good!

Lovely.

Quote:
No; you're mixed up... Christians are cool with spirits; our Lord even delivered the wine for a wedding! It's the world of Islam that is hung up with booze!

So, Muslims are apparently mixed up, but Christians are cool. Sure, I get it. How would you know you're worshiping the right deity? Perhaps you should be worshiping Dionysus. Dionysus is also cool with alcohol.

Quote:
Lots of creatures are not specifically mentioned in the Bible; that does not mean they never existed.

It also doesn't mean the Bible's many authors were aware of fossil evidence.

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post #91 of 450
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Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't think you do get what I'm saying, especially if the above statement is a reflection of your understanding.

But you don't seem to recognize the logical leap you're making here. You are assuming that the writers didn't know about something (dinosaurs) and therefore didn't write about them. But you have no evidence of this. All you can claim is that they didn't write about them. The rest is conjecture about why. You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that they didn't write about them because they didn't know about them. Am I correct or incorrect in what you are concluding?

You are also assuming they are making stuff up. From what do you draw this claim?

I assume they are making stuff up because there is no supporting evidence. Talking snakes? Miracles? Nope. No proof.

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post #92 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I assume they are making stuff up because there is no supporting evidence. Talking snakes? Miracles? Where's the proof?

I understand now.

Yes, that's one assumption you could make. Just so long as you don't assert as fact that they are making stuff up. That would be a stretch.

You can say I don't believe these things without additional corroborating evidence to support their claim because it runs counter to my own experience.

And so, yes, there are things in the Bible that must be taken on faith.

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post #93 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I understand now.

Yes, that's one assumption you could make. Just so long as you don't assert as fact that they are making stuff up. That would be a stretch.

You can say I don't believe these things without additional corroborating evidence to support their claim because it runs counter to my own experience.

And so, yes, there are things in the Bible that must be taken on faith.

And so it was written... science should never be confused with religion and vice versa.

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post #94 of 450
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

And so it was written... science should never be confused with religion and vice versa.

I agree. But I also don't think they need to be enemies. There are things that science can (and cannot speak to) just as there are things religion and philosophy can (and cannot) speak to. Often both sides get full of themselves and begin thinking that their point of view is the only one which has a monopoly on all knowledge and all truth and all understanding.

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post #95 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I agree. But I also don't think they need to be enemies. There are things that science can (and cannot speak to) just as there are things religion and philosophy can (and cannot) speak to. Often both sides get full of themselves and begin thinking that their point of view is the only one which has a monopoly on all knowledge and all truth and all understanding.

I certainly share your sentiment. Science does not and cannot answer all things we confront on a philosophical or emotional (or, in a tip of the hat to you, spiritual) level.

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post #96 of 450
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I certainly share your sentiment. Science does not and cannot answer all things we confront on a philosophical or emotional (or, in a tip of the hat to you, spiritual) level.

Yes, and those of science must learn to recognize when they are asking the rest of us to take things on faith rather than facts. This happens more often that many people realize. Now, granted, it might not always be scientists themselves but, rather, the ignorant and sloppy media and talking head and politicians, etc. But it does happen.

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post #97 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This is not true and is a caricature of religion.


Oh really?? ... then where is the evidence in favor of a god? (Jehovah, Allah, Ganesh, Zeus... pick one and show me the evidence.)
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post #98 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Oh really??

Yes, really.

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post #99 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, and those of science must learn to recognize when they are asking the rest of us to take things on faith rather than facts.

No... science does not want you to take ANYthing on faith. Questioning, seeking evidence, trying to prove AND disprove are all fundamental parts of furthering our understanding through the scientific method.
If YOU CHOOSE to take someone's word for something, and not seek any proof, that is YOUR CHOICE... but the evidence and proofs are there for those who wish to challenge scientific claims! And if you can come up with proof that a claim is false, that proof would be welcomed by the scientific community.
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post #100 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

No... science does not want you to take ANYthing on faith.

I said: When those of science must learn to recognize when they are asking the rest of us to take things on faith rather than facts.

Meaning those who claim science as their profession. Scientists. The "scientific community."


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Questioning, seeking evidence, trying to prove AND disprove are all fundamental parts of furthering our understanding through the scientific method.

I understand how the scientific method works.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

If YOU CHOOSE to take someone's word for something, and not seek any proof, that is YOUR CHOICE

I understand that. That's now what I was talking about though.

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post #101 of 450
Just as religion can be corrupted and perverted by those who would stand to gain from doing so, cannot science also be corrupted and perverted for the same purposes?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #102 of 450
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Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It's not any more absurd than believing that government is the solution to our problems.

While it is indeed absurd to believe that government is the solution to our problems, it is equally as absurd to believe that the solution to our problems excludes government.
post #103 of 450
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Originally Posted by tonton View Post

While it is indeed absurd to believe that government is the solution to our problems, it is equally as absurd to believe that the solution to our problems excludes government.

That depends actually.

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post #104 of 450
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Originally Posted by tonton View Post

While it is indeed absurd to believe that government is the solution to our problems, it is equally as absurd to believe that the solution to our problems excludes government.

You should reconsider that statement; it is very often found that government is the problem and excluding the problem makes the solution far easier. So too with science, which is often the problem with mankind. Remarkably, removing government and science leaves only the solution: man and God. Funny how that works!
post #105 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Just as religion can be corrupted and perverted by those who would stand to gain from doing so, cannot science also be corrupted and perverted for the same purposes?

Not even close to as easily, because science can be checked, challenged and updated as new data arise. But good try.
post #106 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Just as religion can be corrupted and perverted by those who would stand to gain from doing so, cannot science also be corrupted and perverted for the same purposes?

Peer review. Also if you can't replicate the results, then questions arise. Example is the Korean human cloning case.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../4381056a.html
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post #107 of 450
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Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Peer review. Also if you can't replicate the results, then questions arise. Example is the Korean human cloning case.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../4381056a.html

The peer review process is infallible?

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post #108 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Yes, I do get it. Those things that were beyond the experience of those who actually wrote the Bible chapters are not included in the descriptions of the world they knew. Take a close look at this passage from Genesis:



There isn't a whole lot there in terms of detail, except where birds, cattle, fish were concerned. The most telling thing about the authors: They write about what they know. What they don't know, they make up or lack in detail.

The most amazing thing about that passage is that everything is created in almost the order that modern science says they appeared. For someone writing 4,000 years ago who had no scientific evidence or method and who you say is "making it up" as they go along, that's some incredible good guessing.
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post #109 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The peer review process is infallible?

http://community.acs.org/journals/ac...PeerReview.jpg


Peer review goes under the lens
How can we improve the filter in scientific publishing?
Quote:
Its like democracyits flawed, but its better than the alternative, says Whitehead Member Robert Weinberg.

Despite overwhelming support for peer review, just 32 percent of academic researchers agree that the current peer review system is the best we can achieve.

Implicit in the review process is that one trusts what the author has written, notes Weinberg. Peer reviewers should be alert to fraud, but cannot be expected to catch all guilty parties.

Perhaps the current peer review system is as good as it gets. But researchers wont know if thats true until they start methodically testing hypothesesand, well, review the results carefully with their peers.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CEYQ9QEwBg

More on Peer Review

http://www.nature.com/nature/peerrev...ate/index.html

Scientific Method

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...ic_method2.gif

The hypothesis that is set forth in a scientific paper has to be tested:
"Hypothesis testing is the use of statistics to determine the probability that a given hypothesis is true. The usual process of hypothesis testing consists of four steps.

1. Formulate the null hypothesis (commonly, that the observations are the result of pure chance) and the alternative hypothesis (commonly, that the observations show a real effect combined with a component of chance variation).

2. Identify a test statistic that can be used to assess the truth of the null hypothesis.

3. Compute the P-value, which is the probability that a test statistic at least as significant as the one observed would be obtained assuming that the null hypothesis were true. The smaller the -value, the stronger the evidence against the null hypothesis.

4. Compare the -value to an acceptable significance value (sometimes called an alpha value). If , that the observed effect is statistically significant, the null hypothesis is ruled out, and the alternative hypothesis is valid."
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post #110 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, and those of science must learn to recognize when they are asking the rest of us to take things on faith rather than facts. This happens more often that many people realize. Now, granted, it might not always be scientists themselves but, rather, the ignorant and sloppy media and talking head and politicians, etc. But it does happen.

Actually, what I meant was that when we are confronted with issues such as our own mortality, or when we fall in love, these are the areas where our own rationality usually fails us.

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post #111 of 450
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Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The most amazing thing about that passage is that everything is created in almost the order that modern science says they appeared. For someone writing 4,000 years ago who had no scientific evidence or method and who you say is "making it up" as they go along, that's some incredible good guessing.

Well, excluding the whole bit about dinosaurs, Neanderthals, wooly mammoths, and so on...

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post #112 of 450
If you're looking for references to older, extinct species of animals, look in the oldest book of the Bible.
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post #113 of 450
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Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

If you're looking for references to older, extinct species of animals, look in the oldest book of the Bible.

I invite you to post the references.

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post #114 of 450
It's a book beginning with 'J'.
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post #115 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

If you're looking for references to older, extinct species of animals, look in the oldest book of the Bible.

Peer reviewed???
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post #116 of 450
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

The most interesting questions, in my mind anyway, are these...

How did the universe spring forth and expand from nothing?

What came before the universe?

If the universe is in fact 'contained', what is beyond/outside the container? If it is "flat", does it have an edge or a seam?

These are the things I used to worry about as a kid, but are just interesting puzzlers as an adult. I'm fairly confident these questions will never be answered. We can never observe beyond the moment of the creation of everything.

I don't have the sophisticated science knowledge to articulate the answers to most of those questions, but actually there are answers for most of what you said.

Nothing is actually kind of a weird word. Over 90% of a proton's mass actually comes from the areas of nothingness inside.

Quote:
Protons would fly apart except for the strong nuclear force, which is carried by gluons (force lines between quarks). When gluons clump together they form a glueball. Modern conception of the proton includes more than the three valence quarks a down (d) and two up (u) quarks which account for only about 2 percent of the protons mass. The rest comes from a sea of virtual quarks and glueballs. Even outside the bounds of the proton, virtual particles spring into and out of existence within the teeming vacuum described by QCD.

http://www.psc.edu/science/2009/qcd/

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #117 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So here again we bump up against a big problem with government schools...everyone wants things done their way, and everything things they should have a say in it because their money is being used to pay for it. End the public schools, give the money back to the parents, let them each chose how, where and what to educate their own kids. End of story. End of debate. End of problem.

Not the end of debate. Not the end of problem. Public schools teaching science in science classrooms actually give the next generation of kids a chance of shrugging off the shroud of ignorance draped over them by their parents who can't keep up with the times. Homeschooling by ignorant retards just breeds more ignorant retards.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #118 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The most amazing thing about that passage is that everything is created in almost the order that modern science says they appeared. For someone writing 4,000 years ago who had no scientific evidence or method and who you say is "making it up" as they go along, that's some incredible good guessing.

There are two contradictory creation stories in the first two pages of the bible. Throw 15 darts at a wall and some might get near the target.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #119 of 450
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Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

It's a book beginning with 'J'.

Jurassic Park!
post #120 of 450
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Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The most amazing thing about that passage is that everything is created in almost the order that modern science says they appeared. For someone writing 4,000 years ago who had no scientific evidence or method and who you say is "making it up" as they go along, that's some incredible good guessing.

Not that surprising. Even 4000 years ago, humans had the ability to observe their environment. Figuring out that things started with the simple and became more complex didn't require microscopes, mass spectrometers, and electronic computers.

I look at the story of creation and chuckle that it "just happens" to follow the developmental line that occurs when you leave god out of it. If it were created, god could have done it inane order he wanted, but wow! What acoincidence that he followed godless/evolutionary model!
Almost makes one think it was made up, but basedon real observations.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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