Darwin's idea of "Survival of the fittest" debunked... - Page 3

Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot

But why teach unsubstantiated beliefs in a classroom as if they were true?

The public schools should teach what can be backed-up with observation and evidence... and teach that new evidence may (and has in the past) lead us to change what we believe to be true.

Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot

Religion is the exact opposite... it requires belief with NO evidence, and any contrary evidence must be ignored and treated as false, no matter the proof.

Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot

It has no business being taught in public schools except as a study on human psychology, or as part of a philosophy class. Please stop confusing it with science... which the study of evolution IS.

If you want your kids to believe in fairy-tales, then send them to church somewhere. Mine don't need to be told that they should believe in a god that cannot be observed in any way, for which there is no supporting evidence, simply because some "priest" said to believe it.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Do you believe dinosaurs existed? If so, why were they never mentioned in the Bible? Didn't God create them as well?

Originally Posted by MJ1970

You need to be careful here. Just because something wasn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean the Bible is saying it didn't happen or exist. That's a fallacious conclusion and I think you probably know that.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Really?

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Then why spend all the time talking about pork and shellfish? Why bother telling Noah to save animals?

Originally Posted by MJ1970

Yes, really.

I don't know. Ask the author. But, again, just because A is mention but B is not does not mean that the text is saying B does not exist or did not happen.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

That's the beauty of a work of fiction. Anything can happen, and any reason can be given to support the internal logic.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

Well, setting aside your assumption that the Bible is a work of fiction for a moment, what I'm saying applies equally to works of non-fiction.

Let me give an example. Let's say that you read a news story about a person who got robbed on the street one day. This article doesn't mention the hot dog stand that existed nearby the robbery. Two things:

1. Just because the article did not mention the hot dog stand doesn't mean the hot dog stand didn't exist.

2. Just because the article did not mention the hot dog stand doesn't mean the author is denying the existence of the hot dog stand.

Get it?

And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. 20 And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens." 21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. 24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food."

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Yes, I do get it. Those things that were beyond the experience of those who actually wrote the Bible chapters are not included in the descriptions of the world they knew.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

The most telling thing about the authors: They write about what they know. What they don't know, they make up.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

So how many classes in Wiccan beliefs are you or your children willing to sit through? I think it would be interesting, myself.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

So, maybe God is no longer interested in the affairs of humans and Earth. Maybe he split. Maybe his job is done and we need to carry on without him?

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

SAnd yet so many Christians believe alcohol is the devil's brew. Seems like a lot of inconsistencies in the rock-solid foundation.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Do you believe dinosaurs existed? If so, why were they never mentioned in the Bible? Didn't God create them as well?

Originally Posted by Camp David

Far more by an order of magnitude than all the secular evolution classes I was forced to pass even though I ignored the propaganda.

Spoke to Him last week. So did billions of other Christians. We're good!

No; you're mixed up... Christians are cool with spirits; our Lord even delivered the wine for a wedding! It's the world of Islam that is hung up with booze!

Lots of creatures are not specifically mentioned in the Bible; that does not mean they never existed.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

I don't think you do get what I'm saying, especially if the above statement is a reflection of your understanding.

But you don't seem to recognize the logical leap you're making here. You are assuming that the writers didn't know about something (dinosaurs) and therefore didn't write about them. But you have no evidence of this. All you can claim is that they didn't write about them. The rest is conjecture about why. You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that they didn't write about them because they didn't know about them. Am I correct or incorrect in what you are concluding?

You are also assuming they are making stuff up. From what do you draw this claim?

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

I assume they are making stuff up because there is no supporting evidence. Talking snakes? Miracles? Where's the proof?

Originally Posted by MJ1970

I understand now.

Yes, that's one assumption you could make. Just so long as you don't assert as fact that they are making stuff up. That would be a stretch.

You can say I don't believe these things without additional corroborating evidence to support their claim because it runs counter to my own experience.

And so, yes, there are things in the Bible that must be taken on faith.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

And so it was written... science should never be confused with religion and vice versa.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

I agree. But I also don't think they need to be enemies. There are things that science can (and cannot speak to) just as there are things religion and philosophy can (and cannot) speak to. Often both sides get full of themselves and begin thinking that their point of view is the only one which has a monopoly on all knowledge and all truth and all understanding.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

I certainly share your sentiment. Science does not and cannot answer all things we confront on a philosophical or emotional (or, in a tip of the hat to you, spiritual) level.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

This is not true and is a caricature of religion.

Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot

Oh really??

Originally Posted by MJ1970

Yes, and those of science must learn to recognize when they are asking the rest of us to take things on faith rather than facts.

Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot

No... science does not want you to take ANYthing on faith.

Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot

Questioning, seeking evidence, trying to prove AND disprove are all fundamental parts of furthering our understanding through the scientific method.

Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot

If YOU CHOOSE to take someone's word for something, and not seek any proof, that is YOUR CHOICE

Originally Posted by jazzguru

It's not any more absurd than believing that government is the solution to our problems.

Originally Posted by tonton

While it is indeed absurd to believe that government is the solution to our problems, it is equally as absurd to believe that the solution to our problems excludes government.

Originally Posted by tonton

While it is indeed absurd to believe that government is the solution to our problems, it is equally as absurd to believe that the solution to our problems excludes government.

Originally Posted by jazzguru

Just as religion can be corrupted and perverted by those who would stand to gain from doing so, cannot science also be corrupted and perverted for the same purposes?

Originally Posted by jazzguru

Just as religion can be corrupted and perverted by those who would stand to gain from doing so, cannot science also be corrupted and perverted for the same purposes?

Originally Posted by FineTunes

Peer review. Also if you can't replicate the results, then questions arise. Example is the Korean human cloning case.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../4381056a.html

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Yes, I do get it. Those things that were beyond the experience of those who actually wrote the Bible chapters are not included in the descriptions of the world they knew. Take a close look at this passage from Genesis:



There isn't a whole lot there in terms of detail, except where birds, cattle, fish were concerned. The most telling thing about the authors: They write about what they know. What they don't know, they make up or lack in detail.

Originally Posted by jazzguru

The peer review process is infallible?

Its like democracyits flawed, but its better than the alternative, says Whitehead Member Robert Weinberg.

Despite overwhelming support for peer review, just 32 percent of academic researchers agree that the current peer review system is the best we can achieve.

Implicit in the review process is that one trusts what the author has written, notes Weinberg. Peer reviewers should be alert to fraud, but cannot be expected to catch all guilty parties.

Perhaps the current peer review system is as good as it gets. But researchers wont know if thats true until they start methodically testing hypothesesand, well, review the results carefully with their peers.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

Yes, and those of science must learn to recognize when they are asking the rest of us to take things on faith rather than facts. This happens more often that many people realize. Now, granted, it might not always be scientists themselves but, rather, the ignorant and sloppy media and talking head and politicians, etc. But it does happen.

Originally Posted by Frank777

The most amazing thing about that passage is that everything is created in almost the order that modern science says they appeared. For someone writing 4,000 years ago who had no scientific evidence or method and who you say is "making it up" as they go along, that's some incredible good guessing.

Originally Posted by Frank777

If you're looking for references to older, extinct species of animals, look in the oldest book of the Bible.

Originally Posted by Frank777

If you're looking for references to older, extinct species of animals, look in the oldest book of the Bible.

Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

The most interesting questions, in my mind anyway, are these...

How did the universe spring forth and expand from nothing?

What came before the universe?

If the universe is in fact 'contained', what is beyond/outside the container? If it is "flat", does it have an edge or a seam?

These are the things I used to worry about as a kid, but are just interesting puzzlers as an adult. I'm fairly confident these questions will never be answered. We can never observe beyond the moment of the creation of everything.

Protons would fly apart except for the strong nuclear force, which is carried by gluons (force lines between quarks). When gluons clump together they form a glueball. Modern conception of the proton includes more than the three valence quarks a down (d) and two up (u) quarks which account for only about 2 percent of the protons mass. The rest comes from a sea of virtual quarks and glueballs. Even outside the bounds of the proton, virtual particles spring into and out of existence within the teeming vacuum described by QCD.

Originally Posted by MJ1970

So here again we bump up against a big problem with government schools...everyone wants things done their way, and everything things they should have a say in it because their money is being used to pay for it. End the public schools, give the money back to the parents, let them each chose how, where and what to educate their own kids. End of story. End of debate. End of problem.

Originally Posted by Frank777

The most amazing thing about that passage is that everything is created in almost the order that modern science says they appeared. For someone writing 4,000 years ago who had no scientific evidence or method and who you say is "making it up" as they go along, that's some incredible good guessing.

Originally Posted by Frank777

It's a book beginning with 'J'.

Originally Posted by Frank777

The most amazing thing about that passage is that everything is created in almost the order that modern science says they appeared. For someone writing 4,000 years ago who had no scientific evidence or method and who you say is "making it up" as they go along, that's some incredible good guessing.