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The Basic Element of Prophethood

post #1 of 35
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://www.realislam.org" target="_blank">http://www.realislam.org</a>

CHAPTER 1
NATIONALISM, The Basic Element of Prophethood
Islam is an offshoot of the Semitic culture, which is an expression of man's aggressive behaviour.

Semitism, as a culture, describes the way of life associated with the peoples fathered by Shem, the eldest son of Noah. Originally, the expression Semite included the Babylonians, Assyrians, Aramaeans, Canaanites and Pnoenicians but now it refers to the two major groups: the Jews and the Arabs, who have a common ancestry and cultural traditions though religious differences depict them in different colours, which give them ethnic distinction based on mutual dislike, destruction and derogation. This might not have happened but the Jewish sense of racial superiority coupled with their brilliant success in worldly affairs, has ignited the flame of jealousy provoking most nations to bruise, bash and batter them during the course of history.

Paradoxically, what unites the Jews and the Arabs culturally also serves as the foundation-stone of their ethnic animosity. This happens to be the doctrine of Revelation, which is the oldest tradition of the Semitic lands. It has a deeper meaning than what is usually understood. The concept of revelation is the pivot of the Semitic culture and governs the entire life of its people.

Revelation means that the universe has been created by God who loves to be worshipped. He reveals His will to mankind through his agent, called the prophet, who happens to be the divine interpreter. Salvation is not possible unless people obey the prophet who is God's messenger, however, customarily, it meant that every locality, city and country, such as Sumer, Babylon, etc., had a God as its head, who was represented by the local or national priest-ruler. It was God who made laws and revealed to the ruler, and gave him instructions regarding the government and morality, that is, how people should talk, walk, eat, drink, sleep, wake up, etc. The ruler was supposed to be God's servant, who had no power of his own; he was there just to execute God's will. The Islamic principle that government belongs to God and must be conducted according to His law, is an extension of this old Semitic tradition.

Since this tradition forms the cornerstone of the Semitic culture, I may give a few examples to emphasise its significance: An inscription of Shalmaneser 111 (858-824 B.C.) states how he fought an alliance of twelve kings who wanted to destroy him. Shalmaneser, "the mighty king of Assyria," describes himself as "the priest of Assur, the great lord, king of all great gods" who gave him "the exalted might" to annihilate his enemies at Karkar including 10,000 soldiers of Ahab, the Israelite.

A still better example is that of Marduk, the chief god of the city of Babylon and the national god of Babylonia. He had fifty names, each referring to a different attribute of his. It was believed that he created all nature including man, and it was he who controlled the destiny of kings and their subjects. The rulers of Assyria and Persia also honoured Marduk.

Marduk was the son of Ea. He attained chief godhead by slaying Tiamat, the monster. The famous rivers Tigris and Euphrates flowed forth from the eyes of the monster when he pierced them. The chief god had under him an array of minor gads, who were entrusted with various functions. For example, Utu, the sun-god, was also the judge of the gods and controlled justice and righteousness. As a result, when people had complaints against demons, they went to the law courts against the evil spirits to seek recourse before Utu to obtain judgement against them, and not from the presiding judge.

Similarly, the famous Babylonian code known as the laws of Hammurabi, were the legal decisions of this king. They were collected during the end of his reign and inscribed on a diorite stela set up in Babylon's temple of the god Marduk. These man-made laws were promulgated to have been revealed by Marduk, and Hammurabi was shown in various statues, as receiving them directly from the local deity.

This custom of the Semitic dignitaries acting as God's viceroys was maintained masterfully; firstly, the deity was assigned incredible powers and attributes to frighten people into submission. Here is a hymn to the God, Merodach ( Marduk ), which is the translation of an Akkadian Psalm. The author claims that it was composed 3000 B.C.

Who shall escape from before thy power?
thy will is an eternal mystery!
Thou makest it plain in heaven
and in the earth.
Command the sea
and the sea obeyeth thee.
Command the tempest
and the tempest becometh a calm.
Command the winding course
of the Euphrates
and the will of Merodach
shall arrest the floods.
Lord, thou art holy!
Who is like unto thee?
Merodach thou art honoured
among the gods that bear a name.
Secondly, these priest-kings, the early equivalents of prophets and messiahs went a long way to express that they had no desire to rule; they did so under the command of the god and acted as his vicar; they were only performing their duty as laid upon them by the Lord. Thus, they made their government look impersonal, yet it was their government in the cloak of revelation. They did what they liked but without much danger of rebellion because God was always on hand to be blamed. The innovation of acting as God's servant under duress is the fulcrum of the device of revelation, which I ought to explain with reference to two major prophets, namely Moses and Muhammad. Jesus Christ is yet another man in this category but as the details of his life are minimal and highly controversial, it will serve no purpose to describe him here.

A closer study of the doctrine of revelation shows that a prophet has two ambitions: personal and national. Personally, he despevately wants to be loved and worshipped as God but without being called so.

Nationally, he adores his nation and strives for its superiority and preservation. It is quite natural for him to use his leadership qualities for the amelioration of his racial group with which he is connected culturally i.e. he speaks their language, dresses like them, practises their customs, manners and rites, belongs to the same country with similar patriotic feelings and possesses a temperament and psychological attitude verisimilar to those of his countrymen. He is usually a refined man, wiser than most and endowed with leading qualities. Thus, he knows that there is no such thing as a leader without the led, and the greatness of the leader depends upon the quality of his followers. Therefore, he is also a national leader of great virtue who is dedicated to the elevation of his own country and people.

Let us take the Jews first, and see how these facts apply to Moses:

Moses, the founder of Judaism, was the son of Amram and Jochebed. By a quirk of history, he ended up on the lap of Pharaoh's daughter and was brought up in the Egyptian court as a prince. He was trained in the noble arts of Egypt such as law-making, scribing, religion, civil administration and warfare. Moreover, as Egypt ruled Palestine and a part of Syria, he knew the history and geography of these countries from the court records.

Originally, the total numher of Jews or Israelites, who went to live in Egypt (including Joseph) was seventy-one. The Egyptians were extremely cruel to them, and they had to leave Egypt after an abode of four hundred and thirty years. The size of the exodus has been put as high as 2,000,000 though scholarly criticism has reduced it to 15,000. However, I estimated it at half a million in my book: Eternity.

Though at that time, the Jews were a loose ethnic group, almost all of them came from the conquered territories of Canaan (Palestine) and Syria. This is evident from the fact that Amenhotep ll (1450-1425 B.C., took during his nine- year campaign 89,600 prisoners, who were used as slaves to build Egyptian temples.

These Hebrews or Jews were a rabble of slavish habits, psychologically depressed and having hardly any cultural attainment. Moses was a great man; he identified himself with the Hebrews. Having been raised as a prince, he wanted to maintain his dominant position and needed a nation to remember him and spread his name. Thus, he chose the ancient Semitic tradition of revelation to project himself as a prophet to unite his nation behind him. The superstitious mind of the Hebrews was receptive to such an idea to give them self-confidence and protection against the uncertainties of life.

On the Semitic model of a prophet mediating between God and man, he narrated the story of the burning bush ( Exodus 3: 2 ) and to give it supernatural character, he emphasised that the bush though burnt, suffered no consumption at all. It was the genius of Moses which realised that the introduction of the God of Israel, who happened to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, must be accompanied by such an uncanny event.

At the same time, he remembered to tell his people that he did not want to be their leader but was acting under duress. Moses told God (Exodus 4: 10; Exodus 3: 8) that he was not willing to be the divine viceroy owing to his stammer and lack of eloquence. However, he agreed to carry the yoke of authority because his attitude infuriated the Lord. Thus. Moses had no choice but to become God's viceroy and announce that God had sent him to His people. One can see the old Semitic tradition at work here: first, Moses finds a God for the people and then appoints himself as God's messenger to enforce certain commands in the name of God. This God is the God of Israel. He is called Yahwe, who, following the Hittite manners, does not reveal his name and declares "I Am That I Am."

Of course, according to the Semitic believers, it is a great honour to be appointed as god's messenger but it is not like a postman. God's messenger is God's servant in name only. In practice, he is God's superior. This exposes the nature of revelation because it makes this device the tool of dominance. Here is an example from the Old Testament:

As the story goes, worship of the molten calf by the Jews kindled Yahwe's jealousy. He appears in His divine glory and intends to consume the Children of Israel with His boiling wrath. Here is a chance for Moses to establish his superiority over God. He tells Yahwe impolitely that He is about to do a wicked thing against His own people and shames Him by asserting what the Egyptians would say if He destroyed them. After all, Yahwe had gone out of the way to secure the release of the Jews from Egypt.

Moses commands the Lord to refrain from this evil and repent. (Exodus 32: 12-14). What an event it becomes; God surrenders to man! Yet the Jews call their faith strictly monotheistic.

This is not the only occasion when Moses, the Prophet, humiliates God in front of everybody. There is yet another episode of similar nature when the Jews denigrate the Promised Land and want to return to Egypt. Yahwe's wrath reaches boiling point and He threatens to kill them all. Moses steps in and shames Him publicly. God Yields to Moses as usual ( Numbers 14: 1 1 - 20 ).

A prophet's urge of dominance is much stronger than that of a secular suzerain; when a suzerain dies, his urge of dominance dies with him but a prophet's urge of dominance, on the contrary, becomes immortal; he wants to command people from the grave, and desires to be worshipped exclusively because he warns people that he was the last prophet and anyone declaring himself to be the God's apostle after him, would be nothing but an imposter. However, to be remembered and worshipped after one's death, is not possible unless one i.e. the prophet leaves behind a devoted, dedicated and determined band of followers. Such a band of followers without a national character and sense of unity is just a rabble, liable to disperse with the first sign of resistance. This is the reason that a prophet has got to be a national leader, openly or discreetly.

Moses, the Prophet, was an overt national leader. First of all, he planned to secure for them a homeland, which he called the "Promised Land." This was not possible without indulging in warfare. His people, after a severe bondage of over four centuries, suffered from an extreme slavish mentality which could prove a great hurdle to self-confidence and independence. So he subjected them to a severe miiitary discipline. For no fewer than forty years, he toughened and trained them in a certain way of life which eventually came to be known as "Judaism." As the third generation of the wandering Jews emerged, Moses decided to settle his followers in Canaan through a policy of fire and genocide. The children of Israel rose to the occasion. They fought to win and became a proud nation. They have followed, not only the law of Moses, but have also made a generous contribution to the world's civilisation.

As we can see, every person who seeks dominance as a prophet through the device of revelation creates a god of his own, and when another person aspires to be a prophet or messiah he has to demolish the god of his competitor and erect the image of a new god to establish his own prophethood to operate the device of revelation. This truth is well illustrated by the examples of Assur, Marduk and Yahwe. Yet nationalism is the most important element of prophethood because it creates an organised group of national fanatics to perpetuate his name by stratagem and force.
post #2 of 35
[quote]Amenhotep ll (1450-1425 B.C., took during his nine- year campaign 89,600 prisoners, who were used as slaves to build Egyptian temples. <hr></blockquote>

recent archeological findings prove without a doubt that those that built the pyramids were not slaves but were rather pretty well paid and well taken care of workers, given recognition, status and even good health benefits as is eidenced by the mediacl work done on many of the exhumed bodies: the whole myth of slavery by the Egyptians may mean that much of ancient history should be rethought.

now as far as this article goes... what's the point: to show that the very nationalism that you espouse so passionately was founded on the power play of an egomaniac?!?!?!

That 'semitic' nationalism are founded on people who pretend to be the voice of god for their own ego gratification?!?!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #3 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong> the whole myth of slavery by the Egyptians may mean that much of ancient history should be rethought.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...and rethought without any references to campfire tales or a king's revisionary bullshit (religions).
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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post #4 of 35
[quote]Amenhotep ll (1450-1425 B.C., took during his nine- year campaign 89,600 prisoners, who were used as slaves to build Egyptian temples. <hr></blockquote>

recent archeological findings prove without a doubt that those that built the pyramids were not slaves but were rather pretty well paid and well taken care of workers, given recognition, status and even good health benefits as is eidenced by the mediacl work done on many of the exhumed bodies: the whole myth of slavery by the Egyptians may mean that much of ancient history should be rethought.

now as far as this article goes... what's the point: to show that the very nationalism that you espouse so passionately was founded on the power play of an egomaniac?!?!?!

That 'semitic' nationalism are founded on people who pretend to be the voice of god for their own ego gratification?!?!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #5 of 35
Nation leader.... Direct line to God.... Fooling people...

OMG! He's saying GW Bush is a PROPHET!
post #6 of 35
Too long. I'm not reading all that. Sorry.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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post #7 of 35
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>

recent archeological findings prove without a doubt that those that built the pyramids were not slaves but were rather pretty well paid and well taken care of workers, given recognition, status and even good health benefits as is eidenced by the mediacl work done on many of the exhumed bodies: the whole myth of slavery by the Egyptians may mean that much of ancient history should be rethought.

now as far as this article goes... what's the point: to show that the very nationalism that you espouse so passionately was founded on the power play of an egomaniac?!?!?!

That 'semitic' nationalism are founded on people who pretend to be the voice of god for their own ego gratification?!?!</strong><hr></blockquote>


I havent seen the irrefutable evidence you refer to. (A reference would be nice). Furthermore, one thing I observed about biblical archeology (and Im no scholar in this area), is that there is no such thing as a sure thing. Theories come and go, as evidence for them becomes available, or new contradictory evidence emerges. Whatever evidence you think you may have to support your theory, I wouldnt be so sure of my footing if I were you.

As far as your second point, all national movements are based on myth to one degree or another. And every such myth has presumably a grain of truth. But Im not here to argue whether biblical or national myths are true or not. I couldnt care less. What I hope to do here is to provide a critical viewpoint of the dynamics involved in this conflict, from a non-Jewish or Arab observer.

I think the author, Anwar Shaikh, having been very familiar with Islamic culture and religion, can provide some very interesting psychological insights into the motives that drive people in this part of the world.

mika.
post #8 of 35
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by CosmoNut:
<strong>Too long. I'm not reading all that. Sorry.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmm, ... Ok. I will start to edit down some of the stuff to make it more palatable.

mika.
post #9 of 35
Read it all. Very interesting. However, he misses many points along the way in his attempt to make God seem like the prophetrs puppet. Especially in his, Moses steps in and shames Him publicly. God Yields to Moses as usual.

First of all, they were not "in public" in both those passages. In the first Moses was up on a mountaintop by himself and God told him that he was going to do these things. So there is no public to be spoken of.

In context: Exodus 32

7 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'
9 "I have seen these people," the Lord said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."
11 But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. "O Lord ," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened. 15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back.


Not in public, and not a command from Moses. He was alone on the mountain as the people of Israel refused to meet with God directly out of fear. This story was to show that God has compassion, and will listen to his people, even when they deserve worse. his compassion is not limitless in that if things continue to get worse and show no sign of improvement he cannot be talked out of his wrath. He conveniently left those passages out of his paper.

The next passage appears to have been in public, however it is interesting to note that everything went as Moses was told. Not only did they go for 40 years in the desert (does it really take 40 years to toughen up your army? If so the US military is sure way ahead of the curve with its practices of less than a year.) but those who tried to go and take the city were beaten quite badly. I may be on one end of the spectrum, but this man is on the way opposite end. To him, and I am sure many of you here, everything is suspect. And he takes it so far as to have the prophets be worshipped? That was never the case. No prophet ever said he was the last prophet and any that came after would be fakes. Only one said something even similar in the bible and that was Jesus. He said he was the only son of God and that many would come after claiming to be him, but when he did return it would be obvious to the whole world like lightening that strikes from the east to the west. All the other prophets never said anything similar in any texts that I can recall. And Jesus was not a prophet, he was God's son, and to take it a step further, and by his own words "I and the Father are one", was God. So there is quite a diffrence. It is interesting how he decides to ignore the most important "prophet in his paper. Jesus Christ is yet another man in this category but as the details of his life are minimal and highly controversial, it will serve no purpose to describe him here.

And yet one of the largest, if not the largest religious structures in the world are based on this one, seemingly controversial and unimportant man. Hmmm. Whatever, I guess it is not really that important, I don't think I will go on picking at his paper. Interesting read. Does make one think. But he steps on his own toes a few times too many for me.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #10 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>Blah blah blah quote bible blah blah blah blabbity blabbity blah</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thump thump thump....
post #11 of 35
EiF, interesting comment (you show a commanding use of the language), but remember you chose to enter a discussion knowing what it would be about. or perhaps you came to attack or ridicule others? Hmm?
post #12 of 35
Skip, skip, skip, skip....

EiF, check your record player, it seems to be broken. If you have nothing to add to the discussion then don't join it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #13 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Hmm, ... Ok. I will start to edit down some of the stuff to make it more palatable.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hah. That's what King James said, right?
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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post #14 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>Skip, skip, skip, skip....

EiF, check your record player, it seems to be broken. If you have nothing to add to the discussion then don't join it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey bible boy. That's a pretty arrogant point of view. Many would consider your "contribution" to this discussion nothing as well.
post #15 of 35
Thread Starter 
quote
First of all, they were not "in public" in both those passages. In the first Moses was up on a mountaintop by himself and God told him that he was going to do these things. So there is no public to be spoken of.

Noah, the fact that this presumed conversation became a part of public record, makes it a public conversion. So the author is perfectly correct in his assertion.

quote
even when they deserve worse

Why ?!? why do they deserve the worst?

quote
does it really take 40 years to toughen up your army?

No. But an army needs weapons. And minerals need to be quarried. The Sinai was where Egypt and later the Romans use to quarry for their Bronze/Iron age armor. There was also the logistical problem of trying to avoid enemy encampments while doing this.

quote
No prophet ever said he was the last prophet and any that came after would be fakes. Only one said something even similar in the bible and that was Jesus.

I think youll find the next chapter fascinating. Now the question is, do you want me the abbreviate it?

quote
Whatever, I guess it is not really that important,

Christianity is very important. Plz dont take it as a diss, Noah. But the author is from Pakistan, I assume. And so, for him the story of Islam is much more pertinent. That doesnt mean that what he says, cannot be extrapolated to have significance for those of Christian or Jewish background.


mika.

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #16 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>

Hey bible boy. That's a pretty arrogant point of view. Many would consider your "contribution" to this discussion nothing as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Let's see, 3 words. Thump Thump Thump, vs many paragraphs of my opinion on the thread at hand.

Nothing? No arrogance, assertion of facts. If you have nothing to contribute then be silent. Your attacks on me contribute nothing to the thread.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #17 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

Let's see, 3 words. Thump Thump Thump, vs many paragraphs of my opinion on the thread at hand.

Nothing? No arrogance, assertion of facts. If you have nothing to contribute then be silent. Your attacks on me contribute nothing to the thread.</strong><hr></blockquote>

To continue responding to "nothing" as you so ineloquently put it contributes nothing as well. You are just as guilty of derailing the thread. It takes two to tango, et cetera.

By the way...people should take "assertion of facts" from an uber-religious nutjob with a 12 pound bucket of salt.

EDIT: random typos...

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
post #18 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

Let's see, 3 words. Thump Thump Thump, vs many paragraphs of my opinion on the thread at hand.

Nothing? No arrogance, assertion of facts. If you have nothing to contribute then be silent. Your attacks on me contribute nothing to the thread.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Quality vs. Quantity. You write paragraphs of crap and I expressed my point of view in 3 words. You are a waste of time.
post #19 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Noah, the fact that this presumed conversation became a part of public record, makes it a public conversion. So the author is perfectly correct in his assertion.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It became public, but it was not held in public. That is like me calling you on the phone and telling you to do something. Private conversation. If you go and tell all your friends and they tell everyone then it becomes a part of public record at that point. Not a public conversation. A fine point, but no finer that the point you take on this one.

[quote]<strong>Why ?!? why do they deserve the worst? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not the worst. Worse. Or maybe more accurately translated, less than what they got. Have you ever received some form of punishment or even a simple reprimand where you deserved a worse punishment? That was what I was speaking of.

[quote]<strong>No. But an army needs weapons. And minerals need to be quarried. The Sinai was where Egypt and later the Romans use to quarry for their Bronze/Iron age armor. There was also the logistical problem of trying to avoid enemy encampments while doing this.</strong><hr></blockquote>

40 years? It does not fit here. 5-10 could be made a case, 40 seems really extreme for the reasons given.

[quote]<strong>I think youll find the next chapter fascinating. Now the question is, do you want me the abbreviate it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have no problem with the length of the first one, so no, no need to abbreviate it for me. Others may want you to though...

[quote]<strong>Christianity is very important. Plz dont take it as a diss, Noah. But the author is from Pakistan, I assume. And so, for him the story of Islam is much more pertinent. That doesnt mean that what he says, cannot be extrapolated to have significance for those of Christian or Jewish background.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I will not argue this point for now, we shall see what future posts bring.

BTW, I just caught your last response to me in the "Religious Thread, Beware". I guess I missed it before. Sorry for not seeing it sooner. I just thought you had not responded for some reason. I will post a reply in a bit in the other thread itself so as to keep this one on your topic.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #20 of 35
edit: decided not to get involved in this stupid thread...

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #21 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:

I will post a reply in a bit in the other thread itself <strong>so as to keep this one on your topic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

*COUGH* TOO LATE *COUGH*
post #22 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>

Quality vs. Quantity. You write paragraphs of crap and I expressed my point of view in 3 words. You are a waste of time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The author of the thread appears to disagree with you that my post was worthless. When he had a problem with what I had to say he responded within the bounds of the topic. You cannot seem to respond outside of a personal attack. Why do you not see this?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #23 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

The author of the thread appears to disagree with you that my post was worthless. When he had a problem with what I had to say he responded within the bounds of the topic. You cannot seem to respond outside of a personal attack. Why do you not see this?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Did I say that EVERYONE finds your post worthless? NO you dotard. I simply said that many people will find your ramblings to be "nothing."
post #24 of 35
Thread Starter 
quote
If you go and tell all your friends and they tell everyone then it becomes a part of public record at that point. Not a public conversation. A fine point, but no finer that the point you take

Well, somebody made it public. I assume it wasnt God. So why did Moses make what was intended be a private conversion public?

quote
Not the worst.

It was already clear what happened to people who didnt listen to God. I dont think to say the worst would be an exaggeration. Ill refer you to the story of Sodom and Gomorra, or the story of the flood.

quote
40 years? It does not fit here. 5-10 could be made a case, 40 seems really extreme for the reasons given.

Not at all. Prospecting for minerals is not the easiest thing to do, even with our modern technology. Can you image what it must have been like to do this at that time? And given the problem I mentioned earlier of trying to keep this activity hidden.

quote
no need to abbreviate it for me

Ok. People interested in this topic will read whole thing anyway. People that are not will move on.

quote
BTW, I just caught your last response to me in the "Religious Thread, Beware"

NP. Ill look for your response.


mika.
post #25 of 35
Thread Starter 
quote
Your whole agenda of hate-spreading against anything arab/muslim is really patetic.
Remeber, nomatter how hard you try to demonize the arab world, it doesn't justify israels aparteid policies.

Yeah, like it isn't plain to see where your going with this thread...


This is from someone who doesnt hesitate for a moment in calling Israel an Apartheid, Nazi state. And who regularly calls its prime minister a war criminal.

New, I could have said the same about you regarding your posts about Israel. And I have. I have already called you a brain-dead duplicitous racist. And I stand by my words, Irving. Others also noted your attempts at a smear campaign against Israel. So Im not alone in this view.

Furthermore, your inability to see critically anything relating to Arabs and/or Muslims is kind of disturbing. And if you havent noticed, the author has many unflattering things to say about Judaism and Christianity. And they are all perfectly valid things to say.

To you history might have begun on 1967. But if you ever hope to understand the dynamic of the situation in the Middle East, I suggest you drop this dim-witted worldview.


mika.

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #26 of 35
Thread Starter 
double post ...

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #27 of 35
You had to drag me back in didn't you... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
[quote] This is from someone who doesnt hesitate for a moment in calling Israel an Apartheid, Nazi state. And who regularly calls its prime minister a war criminal. <hr></blockquote>
You lie, plain and simple. I never said any of those things, go back and read my posts...
[quote] And if you havent noticed, the author has many unflattering things to say about Judaism and Christianity. And they are all perfectly valid things to say. <hr></blockquote>
I'm not questioning the authors motives, I'm questioning yours.
[quote] To you history might have begun on 1967. But if you ever hope to understand the dynamic of the situation in the Middle East, I suggest you drop this dim-witted worldview. <hr></blockquote>
No to me, history didn't begin 1273 BC, like you seem to believe
And your understanding is better? Seeing one side as pure evil, and the other guided by god? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #28 of 35
Thread Starter 
quote
You had to drag me back in didn't you...

Didnt do any such thing. In fact I would prefer that you dont participate in this thread. So there.

quote
You lie, plain and simple. I never said any of those things, go back and read my posts...

Ill let people judge that for themselves. Unless youve gone back and edited all the relevant posts.

quote
I'm not questioning the authors motives, I'm questioning yours.

Well, there is no need. My motives are the same as the authors. Plainly said, I would like the roll back Arab/Islamic expansionism. Starting with their colonies on our lands.

quote
No to me, history didn't begin 1273 BC, like you seem to believe

Never said it has.

quote
And your understanding is better? Seeing one side as pure evil, and the other guided by god?

I was willing to debate you on your own terms, and you lost. Then you started claiming that the arguments you made are not at all your arguments.

As far as your second point, you know very well that Im not religious. Furthermore, you know that the vast majority of Israelis arent religious either. Yet when Islamic Jihad and the other Islamic outfits claim responsibility for their murder campaigns you fall curiously silent. Maybe if you werent so close-minded you'd see how things fit together.


mika.

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #29 of 35
PC&gt;killah, I guess your original post may have succeeded if it was intended to show how absolutely misguided 'nationalisms' are, both arab and Jewish, especially when they are grounded in ideas such as '"our leader is the mouthpiece of the one true god" and "we are right because God is on our side -we the chosen people"

successfull IF that was what you intended, because what it also does is show that claims to nationhood founded on ideas of religious inspiration are generally also founded on the fraud of manipulative egotists. . . .meaning that the specialness of a people, that which makes them think more of themselves than of other people, is founded on lies and self deception.

.

[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #30 of 35
[quote]You had to drag me back in didn't you...

Didnt do any such thing. In fact I would prefer that you dont participate in this thread. So there.<hr></blockquote>
It's always smart to check the thread before posting your reply... did I say smart? well that explains it then...

[quote]You lie, plain and simple. I never said any of those things, go back and read my posts...
Ill let people judge that for themselves. Unless youve gone back and edited all the relevant posts.<hr></blockquote>
Why don't you dig up the examples yourself? Really easy to throw around acusations without backing it up, right? Ohh, backing up stuff? That explains this one...

[quote]I'm not questioning the authors motives, I'm questioning yours.
Well, there is no need. My motives are the same as the authors. Plainly said, I would like the roll back Arab/Islamic expansionism. Starting with their colonies on our lands. <hr></blockquote>No his motives is questioning his former religion. (at least apperently it is). Your motive is spreading hate against a people and a culture you despise and want to throw out of your neighbourhood.

[quote]No to me, history didn't begin 1273 BC, like you seem to believe
Never said it has. <hr></blockquote>
So who lived in Israel/palestine prior to this year then?

[quote]I was willing to debate you on your own terms, and you lost. Then you started claiming that the arguments you made are not at all your arguments. <hr></blockquote>
wrong. You invented some funny arguments, claimed they where mine, and then fleed the discussion. chicken!

[quote]As far as your second point, you know very well that Im not religious. Furthermore, you know that the vast majority of Israelis arent religious either. Yet when Islamic Jihad and the other Islamic outfits claim responsibility for their murder campaigns you fall curiously silent. Maybe if you werent so close-minded you'd see how things fit together.<hr></blockquote> I don't care wether your religious or not, fundamentalist is enough for me.
And just for the record, in my book all fundamentalism is bad, Yours is, the Jihad is, but not all arabs are fundamentalist, far from it.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #31 of 35
Thread Starter 
pfflam, Im not a social anthropologist so I cant say with absolute certainty, but from my personal observations living in Israel, Id say the vast majority of Israelis are very ambivalent about the role of religion as it regards their nationalism. Most people here are not religious, but many, including myself, view the bible as somewhat autobiographical of the story of Jewish people. Jew/Israelis are also very conscious of that fact that if it wasnt for the religious component in our nationalism, we, almost certainly, would not have survived the 2000 years of exile, and still retained our unique national characteristics. There arent many nations left on this earth that can say we are the same nation that we were 3000 years ago. Speaking the same ancient language, living on the same ancient land. Practicing the same ancient national rites. And yet we are as modern in the full sense of the word, as any country on this Earth.

So, although you are possibly correct is asserting that originally the nation was founded on ideas of religious inspiration, with all the aforementioned implications, this assessment I think is somewhat outdated as it concerns the development of the modern state of Israel and its people. Israel has never fought a war to dominate another nation. Contrary to what the Arabs have you believe. We have never sought to convert anyone to our way of life. We have tried as much if not more than most nations to accommodate other peoples cultures, religions, and nationalities within our border, without infringing on their cultural, religious, and social structures.

But for Israelis to tolerate Islam, in its current incarnation, will be tantamount to committing collective suicide. Unfortunately, not many people understand what Islam really is. And political correctness has hindered, and still does, a real critical assessment at this political system.

mika.

[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #32 of 35
Thread Starter 
You know New, Ive met 12 year olds that are brighter than you. Im not going through this again with you. You are a waste of time. People that followed our previous conversions know exactly where the truth lies, Irving. I already know you for what you are, and thats enough for me.

Now, if you have something constructive to say regarding this specific topic, well, be my guest. If you dont, then get lost.

mika.


ps. And whats with all the smilies? You come across as a damn Schizoid.
post #33 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong> I don't care wether your religious or not, fundamentalist is enough for me.
And just for the record, in my book all fundamentalism is bad, Yours is, the Jihad is, but not all arabs are fundamentalist, far from it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fundamentalism or bust baby. Fundamentalism simply means that you believe in *gasp* ALL OF "god's" [alleged] WORDS. Frankly, anyone who claims to be religious and isn't fundamentalist is a hypocrite. It isn't their place to decide which of god's words are more important. If they want to say that the [insert random alleged holy book here] is the word of god, then they need to follow it to the letter. Who the hell are we mere mortals to argue with god?

[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
post #34 of 35
EiF yes but one perosn's "to the letter" is another persons Apostacy&gt;

As for PC.killa, it makes me ask then, what is a Jew if not a religion? its a culture? a race? was Sammy Davis Junior a jew?

I sometimes get the feeling that being jewish is not just a matter of self definition but also is the fact that even if you change your name and try to assimilate to wahtever non-jewish culture that culture will still place the jew in a position of otherness . . . . this seems integral to the mind set and identity of jewishness. . . perhaps because of thousands of years of persecution and pograms and 'homelessness'. but I could be wrong.
Perhaps a consequence of this, or maybe one of the reasons is that I think that to be a jewish identified jew, meaning, one who thinks of himself as a jew, it is a kind of identity structure that sort of gets its specificity in opposition to non-jews (which doesn't mean that jews think of others as less human just not-jewish: after all look at the civil rights movement and the role of jews therein)but perhaps this tendency (which I see as a result to the years of diaspora and struggle) is what you tried to say is actually a result of a theological perspective. . . . .hm? could be . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #35 of 35
Thread Starter 
Hmm, you raise some very interesting questions... (a little off topic, but Ill try to answer them as best I can)


what is a Jew if not a religion?

First, let me refer you to the thread: "Why not move Israel to the U.S.?"
Rash and I attacked this question in a round about way on that thread. If you still are confused I can elaborate some more on this

was Sammy Davis Junior a jew?

Was Stalin a Communist? If you decide to become a part of a group that you identify with, then you are part of that group, are you not?

the jew in a position of otherness . . . . this seems integral to the mind set and identity of jewishness.

Hmm,
I remember as a child living in Lithuania, having had a very domineering and aggressive personality. I was a bully in short. But I was the bullys bully. I always identified with the underdog or the weaker party. How unique that is, or how Jewish it is, I dont think it is.

I think most of us identify with the underdog, or the other. Just look at these forums. There is a perception that the Arabs in the Arab/Israeli conflict are the underdogs, because of Israels military superiority. (Of-course, this is a false perception fostered by Arab propagandists. If you follow the political and diplomatic events, this becomes very clear). And so you have had many people on these forums that rallied to the cause of the Arabs. Even though on closer inspection their worldview is much more closely aligned with that of Israels.

it is a kind of identity structure that sort of gets its specificity in opposition to non-jews

Heheh, well, I suggest you come and visit us in Israel. Ill be very happy to host you. I think once youve had a taste of Israel, I doubt youll still hold to that perception. Israelis are very receptive to foreign peoples, cultures, ideas, technologies, etc. Plus we have a very beautiful country for the tourist to enjoy.


mika.

[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
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