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Terrorism Worries

post #1 of 39
Thread Starter 
I assume everyone has noticed what the Bush administration is calling "increased noise" in the intelligence system regarding another al-Qaeda attack, this time of even larger proportions.

I was wondering what everyone's biggest concerns are regarding this. My take:

In some ways I feel more secure than I did. I think our government may now be doing things to prevent terror that we would say are "quasi-legal". This includes reading email and listening to phone conversations, etc on a wide spread scale using the Echelon (sp?) system. I think that there may have been a determination made at the highest levels to prevent another attack at ALL costs. These costs, in my estimation only, might include the above, as well as the public measures being taken with baggage screening, increased security, etc, and tactics such as covert law enforcement and military operations that we never hear about.

Having said that, my concerns for future attacks are:

1. Nuclear suitcase bombs
2. Suicide/homocide bombers on a large scale in the mainland US
3. Poisoning of food and/or water supply
4. Release of smallpox or other contagious agent.
5. Bioterror or dirty bombs
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post #2 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>I

Having said that, my concerns for future attacks are:

1. Nuclear suitcase bombs
2. Suicide/homocide bombers on a large scale in the mainland US
3. Poisoning of food and/or water supply
4. Release of smallpox or other contagious agent.
5. Bioterror or dirty bombs</strong><hr></blockquote>
1/ no (US is perhaps the only countrie able to make very small nuclear bomb)
2) they 'll try but it will be very difficult : many people are watching them
3) & 4) I think it's the biggest problem : they'll try for sure
5) what is the difference with 3) or 4).

Bul like you said , there are under watch all around the world. They'll try, but it will be very very difficult for them to achieve their goal.
post #3 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>
5) what is the difference with 3) or 4).
</strong><hr></blockquote>

DIrty bombs are bombs where nuclear material is spread by conventional bombs making large areas uninhabitable due to radiation. A bomb detonated in Wall Street could probably cost more lifes and be worse for the economy than 911.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #4 of 39
I'm more worried about our Knee Jerk Gov. Who should we really fear some Terrorist or our Gov who would trample our rights chasing petty thugs.
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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post #5 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>In some ways I feel more secure than I did. I think our government may now be doing things to prevent terror that we would say are "quasi-legal". This includes reading email and listening to phone conversations, etc on a wide spread scale using the Echelon (sp?) system.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Trouble is, this kind of monitoring was going on long before September 11, and it did very little good in the end.
[quote]<strong>I think that there may have been a determination made at the highest levels to prevent another attack at ALL costs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right, but how much will actually be done at a basic level? Will the brass now pay attention when some FBI underling spending all day at his desk suggests they should be checking out flight school students?

There's also a matter of how far the government is willing to go. The CIA had its hands tied a few years ago after a very public series of events, and the right to pay "dubious" characters for information was taken away from them. The CIA (if we can believe them) still cites this as a major reason for their failings regarding September 11.
[quote]<strong>These costs, in my estimation only, might include the above, as well as the public measures being taken with baggage screening, increased security, etc, and tactics such as covert law enforcement and military operations that we never hear about.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unfortunately, airports across the country seem to have returned to their old methods. The increased security and screening has all but disappeared. We crave convenience, and the airlines are providing.
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post #6 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

DIrty bombs are bombs where nuclear material is spread by conventional bombs making large areas uninhabitable due to radiation. A bomb detonated in Wall Street could probably cost more lifes and be worse for the economy than 911.</strong><hr></blockquote>

thanks for you answer(s) .
post #7 of 39
Oh, there's nothing to worry about. Our lives are in Dubya's hands!
post #8 of 39
I think this "warning" is just to quiet the critics. How convenient for them to start making a big deal about possible attacks just when Bush and his administration are beginning to get heavily criticized.


even if it is mostly for that purpose the warnings still scare the hell out of me. I really think something is gonna happen between now and September 11, 2002. Do you think they'll pick a big american day like July 4 or Memorial Day or do you think they'll go with a nothing day like 9/11 again?
post #9 of 39
I think this is really the status quo; we have to deal with threat on these terms probably for the reat of our lives. I do think there are political motivations behind this new "scare" but I think people were getting complacent anyway.
post #10 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>I think this is really the status quo; we have to deal with threat on these terms probably for the reat of our lives. I do think there are political motivations behind this new "scare" but I think people were getting complacent anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly, we are back to the old ways (with a few minor changes) in bickering and complacency. "Business as usual". Whenever we reach this state I start to feel vulnerable. In Israel the people have been ingrained with paranoia and have no blinders on whatsoever. They live with terrorism everyday and have adapted to it. By carrying cell phones to contact authorities (or loved ones) whenever something they see is suspicious or if they are in harms way. And they watch everything. Their airport (El Al?) is the most secure airport in the world and our's should be exactly the same in every way.

Here? We go about thinking the Government/Authorities will handle everything and watch TV. We have to be more aware now than ever.
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post #11 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>I'm more worried about our Knee Jerk Gov. Who should we really fear some Terrorist or our Gov who would trample our rights chasing petty thugs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

"petty thugs"? You have to be kidding me you stupid ****ing moron asshole. Tell the tens of thousands of people that lost loved ones on 9-11 that the people who did it were "petty tugs" not worth chasing down.

God help us. Many have already forgotten.
post #12 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by scott_h_phd:
<strong>

"petty thugs"? You have to be kidding me you stupid ****ing moron asshole. Tell the tens of thousands of people that lost loved ones on 9-11 that the people who did it were "petty tugs" not worth chasing down.

God help us. Many have already forgotten.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Really, flying fully fueled jetliners into buildings is not the same as robbing a 7-11 in Alabama. But as I said...some are blinded. Wake the **** up.

The acts of 9|11 have taken some freedoms away so that we can preserve the ones we hold dear. I'm all for this now. The world changed on 9|11 in America. If you don't perceive this you are misguided. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
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post #13 of 39
[quote]Many have already forgotten<hr></blockquote>

that's the problem with our society today..instant gratification and the short attention span, unfortunately.

I hope that our Government does indeed chase these "thugs" as whateverhisname said..though I think thugs is too light of a term and AI censors what I really think about those scumbags.
post #14 of 39
Originally posted by scott_h_phd:

"petty thugs"? You have to be kidding me you stupid ****ing moron asshole. Tell the tens of thousands of people that lost loved ones on 9-11 that the people who did it were "petty tugs" not worth chasing down.

God help us. Many have already forgotten.


[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>


Really, flying fully fueled jetliners into buildings is not the same as robbing a 7-11 in Alabama. But as I said...some are blinded. Wake the **** up.

The acts of 9|11 have taken some freedoms away so that we can preserve the ones we hold dear. I'm all for this now. The world changed on 9|11 in America. If you don't perceive this you are misguided. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think 'petty thugs' refers to those people who engage in acts of mass murder & terrorism, but indicates an unease about the broad brush approach U,S and International governments are taking in dealing with those they find undesirable.

Without wanting to diminish the events of 9/11 in any way, if we allow our leaders to do anything they want without scrutiny in the name of a 'War on Terror' we do a diservice to all of those who died believing that they were living and working in and for a free country.

BTW: Has the world changed ? Has the U.S changed? Im curious... the world doesn't seem to have, not here at least. I think we have had reason to doubt our safety for some time...perhaps thats the difference. Is there something new in the realisation that the US is vulnerable too?
post #15 of 39
Another moron. I don't know why I bother.

[quote]Originally posted by Zarathustra:
<strong>I don't think 'petty thugs' refers to those people who engage in acts of mass murder & terrorism, but indicates an unease about the broad brush approach U,S and International governments are taking in dealing with those they find undesirable. </strong><hr></blockquote>

1) Please define the "broad brush approach U,S and International governments are taking". Doesn't seem that broad to me. Rather it seems like your knee jerk reaction to criticize a politician you don't like.

2) Which people, beyond murderous terrorist and the dictators that protect them (don't tell me you love the Taliban?) have been classified as "undesirable".

[quote]Originally posted by Zarathustra:
<strong>Without wanting to diminish the events of 9/11 in any way, if we allow our leaders to do anything they want</strong><hr></blockquote>

How exactly did they "do anything they want". Doesn't seem like they have at all.

[quote]Originally posted by Zarathustra:
<strong>without scrutiny in the name of a 'War on Terror' we do a diservice to all of those who died believing that they were living and working in and for a free country.</strong><hr></blockquote>


No. Last time I checked the system is working just fine. Congress had public hearings on the law that Bush wanted. He didn't get them all and many others are limited in time. Rather alarmist of you don't you think? Got your facts rather mixed up huh?

[quote]Originally posted by Zarathustra:
<strong>BTW: Has the world changed ? Has the U.S changed? Im curious... the world doesn't seem to have, not here at least. I think we have had reason to doubt our safety for some time...perhaps thats the difference. Is there something new in the realisation that the US is vulnerable too?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The US has to some degree. Other parts of the world touched by Islamic terrorist have like Russia, India and Israel. We pull closer together.

The rest of the world just goes on like it always has, hating the US and wanting the Jews dead, France, Palestine, Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab/Muslim world.

[ 05-19-2002: Message edited by: scott_h_phd ]</p>
post #16 of 39
"1) Please define the "broad brush approach U,S and International governments are taking". Doesn't seem that broad to me. Rather it seems like your knee jerk reaction to criticize a politician you don't like.

1. George Bush said..'You're either with us or against us', sounds pretty braod brush to me. The world can't be so easily divided into them and us. There are shades of grey. Very difficult in the circumstances I know but who said running the worlds greatest power was gonna be easy?

2) Which people, beyond murderous terrorist and the dictators that protect them (don't tell me you love the Taliban?) have been classified as "undesirable."

No I don't love the Taliban, I am sure that I would have suffered severely under their regime. However, when did the Taliban become equivalent to the terrorist group that attacked the US?

The US trained and supported the Taliban (and Al Quaida for that matter) when it suited their purpose (Anti Communism) and were negotiating with them for the handover of the terrorists in the aftermath of 9/11. As the coalition forces have been in Afghanistan for several months without capturing the leaders they demanded or finishing off the terrorists shouldn't we consider that the Taliban were unable to comply with what was asked of them?

Do you really equate the actions of mainly ignorant men, with no say in the actions of their leaders who defended their homes from attack (The Taliban soldiers), with those of the murderers who trained and lied and plotted for months or years to attack the US?

As for the others.. well you're there Im not but in the UK we have had reports of people being arrested and detained without charge. The cases that have been highlighted seem unfair. I know that they are not representational of the whole system but where a system fails it deserves to be criticised.


"How exactly did they "do anything they want". Doesn't seem like they have at all.

Last time I checked the system is working just fine. Congress had public hearings on the law that Bush wanted. He didn't get them all and many others are limited in time. Rather alarmist of you don't you think? Got your facts rather mixed up huh?"

The Government is able to do what it wants when it becomes unaceptable to hold an alternative view. The fact that the US Govt has within it people who have differences of opinion doesn't really matter if the general trend is all in the same direction and there is no check from the public on their actions. I accept that many in the US will feel so outraged that the Govt could go a lot further. That doesn't make it right.


"The US has to some degree. Other parts of the world touched by Islamic terrorist have like Russia, India and Israel. We pull closer together."

So I take it that we now approve of the Russian treatment of the Chechins?

The small group you mention demonstrates the point. The world hasn't changed. Terrorism isn't only terrorism when it affects interests with which you agree. Anyone remember Central America or Northern Ireland? Remember that arch terrorist Nelson Mandela? When Americans fought for their independance Im sure the acted in ways commensurate with our view of terrorism. In scale and in the choice of victim this incident was unusual but many people in many places suffer from terrorist acts year in year out.

"The rest of the world just goes on like it always has, hating the US and wanting the Jews dead, France, Palestine, Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab/Muslim world."

Mmmm..
Criticism = Hate,
Critcism of Israel = Genocide,
All Arabs and Muslims are the same.

Well made points.

Actually I dont hate the US, I admire the nations strength, resiliance, innovation and industriousness. Its just that a little honesty (Like ..we do what we do because its right for us and because we can) wouldn't go amiss rather than telling the rest of the world that its action are for justice... a moral crusade I believe the president said.

Perhaps whilst he's being so moral he'll give the Saudi's back their money, stop interfering in the internal affairs of other countries with disasterous results (Al Quaida and Sadaam Hussain amongst others all backed by US money or advisors)

BTW.. you bother because you can't believe the audacity of people who express views that do not coincide with your own.
post #17 of 39
Here's a good link.

<a href="http://theopinion.com/engine/article.asp?id=1164" target="_blank">http://theopinion.com/engine/article.asp?id=1164</a>

If anyone has any better suggestions, lets hear them.

Maybe if America adopted an approach, or similar, to that suggested by Len Hart in this article, we could finally do something concrete and longterm against terrorists instead of the wholesale support we lend to them by our bloated oil addictions...not to mention the fact that in the not too distant future, oil will be too scarce/difficult to extract and hence too expensive for use as a principle source of energy. Probably the fact that we have a bunch of corrupt oilmen at the helm that nothing will change and we continue in our wholesale second-hand support of terror regimes.

Regarding the recent warnings:
The CIA/NSA and intelligence networks can say what the hell they want, whenever they want, regardless of whether there's a legitimate threat or not. There is no way for the American people to know the truth or otherwise, concerning such pronouncements, and with all the secrecy and closed style of government that is becoming more the norm, verification will be all but impossible. This administration feels that the people (who's that?) are not qualified to be informed? This last set of rumors conveniently coincided with the growing scandal concerning possible gross negligence on the part of....(fill in the blanks).

[quote]"a lie can get half way around the world before the truth has put it's boots on".<hr></blockquote>
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #18 of 39
I'm not at all convinced that the "freedom from foreign oil" think == no more problems with the Middle East. For right now they need us more than we need them. Since the end of the cold war Russia has been pumping out more and more oil with out regard for OPEC. So the Middle East could be hurt if we cut them off instead of us being hurt if we sent cold turkey on their oil. We seem to have their balls more than they have ours.

Now consider this. What would the Middle East be like if they lost their biggest source of income? What would all those people do for a living? How would they feed their people? They have a volatile society that can only be supported by oil revenue and I'm to believe that the "smart" thing to do is to cut them off?

Rather I think that because the Bush admin didn't move that way the nay sayers are convinced that it was a mistake. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: scott_h_phd ]</p>
post #19 of 39
scott... is yer phd in confusion? i read yer post but i didn't understand a word of it... not a ****in' word. and by the bye, the saudis(and OPEC) have more to gain by developing the oil fields of central asia than most... they've a foothold we and the russians will never have.

sam... i know yer sum kinda superhippy 'er sumpthin' but uh, like it or not, oil is the status quo and energy of choice and it's gonna be that way fer a long long time. it sucks, but there ya go.. and driving a oil-slinging boat into a fine sailing vessle ain't gonna stop it or nuclear energy(which by the way, might just save us from big oil). truth is sam...nothing can stop it. it took a 100 years to make us so dependent on oil, it'll take at least that long to undo it.

cuss
post #20 of 39
It's so simple you must be stupid.

1) US and the rest of the world go oil free by new power source that cost as much but is cleaner and better.

2) Middle East has no more oil income. Millions out of work. No income. Poverty abounds. Welfare state collapse. Triple digit unemployment.

What do you think will happen? Shinny happy world free of foreign oil? Or something worse than what we have now?
post #21 of 39
kinda crumbles after the first one don't ya think?

oh, you mean the water engine!

nevermind,

cuss
post #22 of 39
[quote]sam... i know yer sum kinda superhippy 'er sumpthin'<hr></blockquote>

???????!!! whats this "superhippy" BS? Just because I support a concerted effort to find/develop alternative sources of energy that are (a) clean (b) sustainable, and (c) allows the US to become independent of foreign nations (some of whom seem to bear some kind of grudge against us)....why should that make me the target of some stupid and childish slur?

Oh...maybe this is it!...perhaps you are thinking about industrial hemp! You know...hemp, as in the plant cannabis sativa. "Hippies", as you so uncharitably decribe me, apparently smoke it to get high and turn out like John Lennon et al. Remember him of "give peace a chance?" Yes, the dreaded evil weed marijuana!

But regarding industrial hemp, it is also an extraordinarily versatile and hardy plant, which grows pretty much anywhere in this country. Industrial hemp thrives where most plants cannot even begin to. There is vast acreage in this country which cannot support regular cash crops, but can be used for hemp agriculture. If this land were utilized as such, we could grow enough hemp from which enough alcohol could be distilled to run all the cars and trucks and generate *all* our electricity needs. This could easily if necessary be supplemented by hydro, solar, wind, geothermal and tides. The burning of crude oil, coal and natural gas would become an ugly episode of our past. One big problem: it is illegal to cultivate this crop in this country because the cotton, paper, and chemical industry were threatened by it back in the 1930s when they used some ridiculous harebrained campaign without a trace of scientific input to first vilify and then illegitimize it by associating it with some fictitious and laughable symptoms of marijuana intoxication.

[quote]but uh, like it or not, oil is the status quo and energy of choice and it's gonna be that way fer a long long time. it sucks, but there ya go..<hr></blockquote>

As the link suggested, big oil is a contributor to big terror. It is Oil Money that finances the likes of al Qaeda etc. Lets take the US *out* of the oil equation...it can be done, and it must be done...unless we wish to generate a new bunch of baby bin Ladens all vying to "get America". There will still be a market for oil in other nations, so the Arab world isn't suddenly going to go bust. America has enough oil to refine for plastics, pharmaceuticals, chemical etc manufacture but in the end both ours, and Arab/Russian etc oil *WILL* run out...so *all oil producing nations* had best prepare their economies for that inevitable eventuality. Like it or not, oil is a *finite resource*. So is coal and gas. Sorry.

[quote]and driving a oil-slinging boat into a fine sailing vessle ain't gonna stop it or nuclear energy(which by the way, might just save us from big oil).<hr></blockquote>

Nukes are over, done. No nuke has been built in this country for decades, and many of the small companies and contractors that designed and manufactured parts and spares do not exist any longer. The nuke industry is in a similar boat to NASA in that the technology is old, and it is starting to fall apart. Unfortunately we are still left with the legacy of some 90 atomic power-plants which at some point will have to be dismantled, at a cost of some $5 billion each. And everyone is now arguing about where the hell to put that 10,000 year half-life lethal excrement that the nuke industry spews out. Nukes are dead...at least fission is, and a good thing for us all that no more are going to be built. Its bad enough dealing with the mess we have now.


[quote]truth is sam...nothing can stop it. it took a 100 years to make us so dependent on oil, it'll take at least that long to undo it.<hr></blockquote>

You are either a total pessimist, or you work in the oil industry! Oil *will* run out, specially considering the exponential increase in consumption rates as an increasing portion of the rest of the world become aware of, and will want and demand an American type of lifestyle. And don't get me started on global warming and rises in sea-level, caused in part by our fossil-fuel addiction. And yes, you may quote Rush Limbaugh's, or the oil industry's opinion on global warming to me, but I won't give it much credence.

And....hows about using standard English spelling in your posts? I guess "fer" and "sum" and "sumpin" etc. could look cute to a 5th grader, but on a BB, look kinda silly. Sorry, but thats just me being a bit picky. Oh well....

Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #23 of 39
cuss, you're not going to let girl beat you up like that? damn it. have some pride and fight back!

mika.
post #24 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
2. Suicide/homocide bombers on a large scale in the mainland US</strong><hr></blockquote>

Homicide...not homocide... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

...now back to your regularly scheduled extremist-left vs. extremist-right flame-war.

Damn the hippies and big-business!

[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #25 of 39
[quote]Damn the hippies and big-business!<hr></blockquote>

Was that double barrelled slam aimed at Steve Jobs?
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #26 of 39
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

Homicide...not homocide... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

...now back to your regularly scheduled extremist-left vs. extremist-right flame-war.

Damn the hippies and big-business!

[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #27 of 39
Ok...let´s see...

Vietnam:

A lot of shooting, a lot of dying. One conclusion. You can never, never, never beat a nation that rather dies than surrenders.

Unless you want to wipe them all out.

Soooooo.....

9/11

GWB: "My fellow Americans. We´re gonna give it another go. We´re gonna try and do what we found out was impossible before."

To speak with another Bush. "Read my lips". Evil begets evil. Until there is peace there will be a lot of killing and it will not stop. The U.S, with all it´s power, can not stop fundamentalists. It is impossible. Israel has been trying it for over 50 years. It is IM-POS-SI-BLE.

You have every right to be affraid. Just because you have right on your side doesn´t mean your way of handling the situation is right. Look at the Basque country here. Spain has been fighting ETA for ages. What they should do is try and get them to agree. Same problem in Ireland. They have been fighting for centuries and it didn´t get Britain anything. You can´t bomb or shoot away centuries of hatred. You have to talk it away. You have to educate it away. And most of all, you have to educate it away in yourself first.
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
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You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
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post #28 of 39
Scott, if the mideast loses their #1 customer then there will be riots and upheavels. But this will only encourage revolutions and the overthrowing of currupt islamic dictatorships. then maybe they can join us in the 21st century.
post #29 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by scott_h_phd:
<strong>It's so simple you must be stupid.

1) US and the rest of the world go oil free by new power source that cost as much but is cleaner and better.

2) Middle East has no more oil income. Millions out of work. No income. Poverty abounds. Welfare state collapse. Triple digit unemployment.

What do you think will happen? Shinny happy world free of foreign oil? Or something worse than what we have now?</strong><hr></blockquote>Interesting. But the problem is that with all the oil they sell right now they should be the richest countries in the world, and instead they're among the poorest and most backward.

Seems that the natural resources aren't enough - it's the overall political and economic system that's important.
post #30 of 39
You do know that the intentions of the people who set up these terror attacks is meant for people to worry about their life and worry where and when they will be attacked?

In other words, don't worry too much. If you do indeed worry too much, they already won.

Don't worry folks, life and everything else is in the hand of God.

What? Some you do't believe in God?

Hmm... Then I guess you will be on your own. You do know that it can be scary if you have no firm place to depend on?

Anyay. The events that happen in 11th September 2001 don't cause much damage (at least not maximally) at all, what it cause is... terrorize people and making them panic.

BTW, according to what you have been teached, the events in 11th September 2001 is impossible to happen (Pentagon had a VERY good air defense, and the whole airspace of the United States is at least under strict control). In other words, things are NOT what it seems to be, and while conspiracy does sound looney to some, if you think more about it, it become much more sense.

You are teached that we humans fight each other so much in brutally, this lead you to believe that a nation can fight againts a nation, even to the point of suicide. But... what if... there's an foreign party involved in this, a foreign party that's NOT us.

Folks... We need to include the possibility that there could be a foreign party (who is NOT us, but manipulated us) involved in this, that intentionally try to make us fight each other.
post #31 of 39
Some disputes/disagreements between two or more nations have a weary future in terms of being solved because to them there is no other alternative besides war, which is quite unfortunate. We can't expect two nations to agree on an issue when thousands of innocent lives have been shut down because of it. As a result, our government as well as most of the American people are either not willing or are reluctant to forgive and find a way to make peace with the Arab nations until justice has been made, whatever that maybe to the Bush administration. Even though I would like to see bin Laden hog-tied and burnt at a stake, this isn't going to solve the crisis. I believe that terrorism in this country will continue for a long, long time until the U.S. wakes up and realizes that in some respects, we provoked the terrorism (Gulf War, etc.) and actually does something about it such as make amends. I would be utterly shocked and heart broken to hear if we had a series of suicide bombings in this country, but I would not be surprised. I remember Yasser Arafat quoting that Palestine's best weapon is the mother's womb. Our country needs to expect what Israel is dealing with at the moment, but maybe not as extreme. Reading the news and realizing that suicide bombings in the U.S. are entirely possible has affected me greatly, and so I believe this country has been stirred up by 9/11. I'm making a mental note to myself to try and avoid large groups at popular places but still have fun. It's a shame that the world has come to this. As of the moment, all we can do is stay alert and keep the safety of our precious country in our prayers.
post #32 of 39
Thread Starter 
[quote]I believe that terrorism in this country will continue for a long, long time until the U.S. wakes up and realizes that in some respects, we provoked the terrorism (Gulf War, etc.) and actually does something about it such as make amends. <hr></blockquote>

That is absurd. If we negotiate or change policy due to terror, terror wins. Let me ask you: Who else was going to save Kuwait's *** ? Make amends for what? For having a free economy and a representative democracy? For being the richest nation in the world through free trade? For giving more aid to nations than any other country on the planet? For defending Europe, South Korea, Vietnam, and coutless others? For allowing freedom of speech and assembly, not to mention the press? For having a population that works more hours per year than any other civilized nation? For intervening in conflict after conflict, saving nation after nation, or being the worldwide mediator between two opposite holy religions? Perhaps we should make amends for taking in the tired, poor, sick and hungry?

Perhaps we should apologize! We're sorry! We are SO VERY SORRY for being the first modern democracy on Earth.

BTW, Bush has publicly stated that just finding Bin Laden won't be enough.

[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
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post #33 of 39
As much as I hate to admit it, Scott H ( PHD geez ) has some good points about the oil issue. This problem in The middle east like so many has really been going on long before oil was an issue. It's religious. Or philosophical, ingrained if you will.

The point to ponder here is that because of the world economy, war is really obsolete. Yes, you heard right. We are all dependent on each other. That's the way its' set up nowadays.

Unfortunately, most of the human dunderheads haven't got that straight in their minds yet. But, they will. They will have to.

For the first time in human history war will not bolster your economy like in the good old days ( the best you can expect is good press for awhile ). Because so much is dependent on other countries for the whole thing to work when you attack your neighbor you attack yourself in the long run. And guess what? It's going to continue to be that way more and more.

This has happened because we travel around the globe so easily, there are many more people, and we are slowly running out of resources.

Even the most staunch of patriotic flag wavers shouldn't be upset. This is a good thing.

I know some people will think this is some kind of pipe dream but there is NO alternative really. Well, one but you wouldn't like it.

For thousands of years humans have had this tribal mentality going way back to when we used to huddle in caves. " Don't trust the guys in the next cave ". " It might be warmer or they might have more food ". Or, " They draw strange pictures on the wall. Not like ours ". This kind of slow witted, protruding brow thinking just doesn't fit the framework anymore!

It's kind of poetic really, we are being forced to realize we are after all one society, one race. Forced to grow up. Also forced to realize this little ball of rock we live on is all we have until we learn more about space travel.

I don't see this happening without resistance. Blood will continue to be spilt along the way. But, in the end...........well as the Borg say " Resistance is futile " .

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #34 of 39
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by jimmac:
<strong>As much as I hate to admit it, Scott H ( PHD geez ) has some good points about the oil issue. This problem in The middle east like so many has really been going on long before oil was an issue. It's religious. Or philosophical, ingrained if you will.

The point to ponder here is that because of the world economy, war is really obsolete. Yes, you heard right. We are all dependent on each other. That's the way its' set up nowadays.

Unfortunately, most of the human dunderheads haven't got that straight in their minds yet. But, they will. They will have to.

For the first time in human history war will not bolster your economy like in the good old days ( the best you can expect is good press for awhile ). Because so much is dependent on other countries for the whole thing to work when you attack your neighbor you attack yourself in the long run. And guess what? It's going to continue to be that way more and more.

This has happened because we travel around the globe so easily, there are many more people, and we are slowly running out of resources.

Even the most staunch of patriotic flag wavers shouldn't be upset. This is a good thing.

I know some people will think this is some kind of pipe dream but there is NO alternative really. Well, one but you wouldn't like it.

For thousands of years humans have had this tribal mentality going way back to when we used to huddle in caves. " Don't trust the guys in the next cave ". " It might be warmer or they might have more food ". Or, " They draw strange pictures on the wall. Not like ours ". This kind of slow witted, protruding brow thinking just doesn't fit the framework anymore!

It's kind of poetic really, we are being forced to realize we are after all one society, one race. Forced to grow up. Also forced to realize this little ball of rock we live on is all we have until we learn more about space travel.

I don't see this happening without resistance. Blood will continue to be spilt along the way. But, in the end...........well as the Borg say " Resistance is futile " .

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


In some ways I agree, in others I do not. First, don't fall into the trap that many in the liberal crowd do (no idea where you are politically). Many, like Bill Clinton, mistakenly believe the world is becoming more peaceful. It isn't.

There are many nations that are, as we speak, preparing to eventutally take the US on, so to speak. The big one is China. Most estimates put China's military as "equal to or greater than" ours in about 15-20 years. That may sound like a long time, but time does not have the same meaning in a nation that is 5000 years old as it does here. China resents US influence and will eventually do something about it. They also have stated their desires to retake Taiwan. If they attempt that, there will be a full scale war. Guaranteed.

North Korea is another example. They have 3,000,000 ground troops. No way to get them here, but they'll figure it out. Oh, and BTW, they are pretty close (within 10 years, perhaps even 5) of being able to launch a nuke at us).....missle defense anyone? Yes, I'll have some, thank you!

I agree that linear coneventional war may be coming to an end. But war is not. We should work for peace, but should also have the most massive, prepared military in the world at all times. In another words, "peace through strength", as Reagan said.
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post #35 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by scott_h_phd:
It's so simple you must be stupid.

1) US and the rest of the world go oil free by new power source that cost as much but is cleaner and better.

2) Middle East has no more oil income. Millions out of work. No income. Poverty abounds. Welfare state collapse. Triple digit unemployment.

What do you think will happen? Shinny happy world free of foreign oil? Or something worse than what we have now?<hr></blockquote>

Now I wanna hear more about this triple digit unemployment. Did you have a particular digit other than 100 in mind?
post #36 of 39
SDW2001,

I am a liberal ( registered independent ) and over all the world is getting more peaceful. It's just a slow process. The thing is the world doesn't have any other choice now. We have many more important things to worry about.

About the nuclear threat.....well it could happen but they realize ( just like we do ) that there can be no winner in such an exchange.

Another reason why war is obsolete.

I didn't say war was stopping tomorrow. It just isn't profitable any more. The same motivations aren't there. It will grind to halt one day.

Because of the changes taking place in the dynamics between countries the world will be forced to change. I think of this as....... how human. Humans always wait until there is no other choice before they change.

China really doesn't want to attack us, they want our trade. They just have to go through the same tiresome breast beating all coutries do when they feel they have to show how strong they are.

Korea by themselves really can't do much ( except nuclear and we've already covered that )

I know some people are frightened of a world government ( loss of culture and all that ) but, it doesn't have to mean there still won't be Americans and Russians and so on. It just means we will be working together. Much more profitable for all. There is no other choice except oblivion.

I know if you look at indiviual situations it doesn't seem like this is happening. I just thought you might enjoy a look at the forrest for a moment. Not just the trees.

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
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post #37 of 39
This is interesting. A NJ news source has reported that Arabs are being smuggled into the US via Mexico. What's kind of fishy is that most of the Arabs smuggled in are Egyptian and from the Egyptian town of Bata.

Seems to me that a plan was made in the town of Bata to be carried out here.

Here is the link to the article.
<a href="http://www.northjersey.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?id=3665615" target="_blank">http://www.northjersey.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?id=3665615</a>
post #38 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by Timo:
<strong>

Now I wanna hear more about this triple digit unemployment. Did you have a particular digit other than 100 in mind?</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's the one I had in mind. Kind of a joke you know. You see, it's funny because it's imposibe to have 100% unemployment.
post #39 of 39
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by jimmac:
<strong>SDW2001,

I am a liberal ( registered independent ) and over all the world is getting more peaceful. It's just a slow process. The thing is the world doesn't have any other choice now. We have many more important things to worry about.

About the nuclear threat.....well it could happen but they realize ( just like we do ) that there can be no winner in such an exchange.

Another reason why war is obsolete.

I didn't say war was stopping tomorrow. It just isn't profitable any more. The same motivations aren't there. It will grind to halt one day.

Because of the changes taking place in the dynamics between countries the world will be forced to change. I think of this as....... how human. Humans always wait until there is no other choice before they change.

China really doesn't want to attack us, they want our trade. They just have to go through the same tiresome breast beating all coutries do when they feel they have to show how strong they are.

Korea by themselves really can't do much ( except nuclear and we've already covered that )

I know some people are frightened of a world government ( loss of culture and all that ) but, it doesn't have to mean there still won't be Americans and Russians and so on. It just means we will be working together. Much more profitable for all. There is no other choice except oblivion.

I know if you look at indiviual situations it doesn't seem like this is happening. I just thought you might enjoy a look at the forrest for a moment. Not just the trees.

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


I cannot support a world government. I just don't see that happening.

And, there is but one reason you perceive war as being over: No nation on earth will dare attack one of our allies (or us), because they know they will obliterated if they do. Imagine China taking on Taiwan.....we would intervene. Imagine almost any offical military action by any nation against us or one of our allies, or even "non-enemies"....we would again intervene.

No nation is willing to risk war with the US. At least, not yet. That is why we are left with unoffically sponsored terrorism as the weapon of choice. It is harder to retalliate against.

Once again, the world is not getting more peaceful. Imagine if Iraq had a military equal to ours. Don't you think they'd attack? How about North Korea, Iran, Syria, Lybia, and others? They would attack us the first chance they got. They just can't. So, they resort to terror.


China may be another issue. I still say China wants to trade with us to boost its economy, so that it may rival us as a global power.

[ 05-25-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
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