or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Terrorism at the Security Council
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Terrorism at the Security Council - Page 2

post #41 of 82
You do have a point here, what goes for the US can be said for many European contries as well. But Europe does not act as one entity here. Britain is best buddy with the US, while france has to listen to a large arab minority. Scandinavia is the sits on its "high horse of moral", and so on. While the strongest support for Israel after WWII used to come from the labor governments of Europe, it now seems to come from the conservative right and the christian parties, and most forceably from the far right (!) and the ultra-christians. This has to bother you a bit, right?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #42 of 82
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>While the strongest support for Israel after WWII used to come from the labor governments of Europe, it now seems to come from the conservative right and the christian parties, and most forceably from the far right (!) and the ultra-christians.</strong><hr></blockquote>Just to provide you with a counter-example, guess who said this?

[quote]Palestinian civilians--men, women and children--are being maimed and murdered by Israel in our own time, in our own world, many at this very moment. And the man behind this murder it is none other than Ariel Sharon. As a loyal and patriotic American, my heart grieves at the support given by American traitors to the world's worst mass murderer and war criminal Ariel Sharon. Sharon has killed, maimed and tortured more people than Osama Bin Laden could only fantasize about. In fact, I will present to you compelling evidence that Sharon and the Mossad aided and abetted the horrible terrorist attack on the World Trade Center. By supporting Sharon and his criminal government in Israel, American traitors have not only supported Sharon's crimes against the Palestinian people, and have become accomplices in mass murder and torture, but they directly aided terrorists who have inflicted terrorism on America. American traitors who support Israel have damaged our most vital interests in the world and caused Americans to be hated the world over.<hr></blockquote>
It was David Duke, who is a former grand poobah of the KKK in the US. This was published in the Saudi newspaper the Arab News last week.
post #43 of 82
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>You do have a point here, what goes for the US can be said for many European contries as well. But Europe does not act as one entity here. Britain is best buddy with the US, while france has to listen to a large arab minority. Scandinavia is the sits on its "high horse of moral", and so on. While the strongest support for Israel after WWII used to come from the labor governments of Europe, it now seems to come from the conservative right and the christian parties, and most forceably from the far right (!) and the ultra-christians. This has to bother you a bit, right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's because Israel moved away from the left and created a country that they wanted, not what the left of Europe wanted. You may knee jerk to the conclusion that relgion is evil but normal people don't.
post #44 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>You do have a point here, what goes for the US can be said for many European contries as well. But Europe does not act as one entity here. Britain is best buddy with the US, while france has to listen to a large arab minority. Scandinavia is the sits on its "high horse of moral", and so on. While the strongest support for Israel after WWII used to come from the labor governments of Europe, it now seems to come from the conservative right and the christian parties, and most forceably from the far right (!) and the ultra-christians. This has to bother you a bit, right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are somewhat right in your assessment .. however its more complicated then its seems ...the far right has always been anti-Semitic and has always hated Israel and blamed Israel and the Jews for everything it can think of. I wouldn't say that post WW2 mainly leftist parties supported Israel , I would simply say that popular support for Israel was far more prevalent ! the media portrayed Israel as a small brave and beleaguered state - a David fighting against Goliath .. and people liked that ... today however , the media ( propelled by a generally more leftie approach, a disdain of the US and local and foreign pro Arab/muslim interests) keep showing Europeans Israel as a middle east bully .. a kind of little America intent on suppressing the Palestinians ... instead of trying to convey the immense complexity of the issues and the lack of moral high ground on either side there is a constant attempt to roll all the blame on the Israeli occupation and simplify the story by claiming that ending Israeli dominance will solve all of the west's problems with the middle east .. to me ( and to anyone who really bothers to look at the facts ) this is tantamount to sticking one's head in the sand and trying to find a quick spunky solution to a problem which in not easily solved.
And to answer your question yes .. I do feel uneasy with some of the support Israel gets from some elements in the US and Europe ... but the bottom line is that these days Israel is so unfairly treated and outnumbered in any international forum that im sorry to say that most Israelis would simply think that any support is better then no support .. sad but true !
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #45 of 82
Let's talk about the number one reason that facilitates the border crossing for the terrorists.

I keep reading articles about the settlements in the OT. Obviously they are very dispersed and wide spread along the OT borders.

rushmon, don't you think that the geographical location of such settlements would actually benefit the terrorist more than it benefits the Isralis? All these dispersed settlements along the border would provide many holes that the terrorists can use for their daily trips into Israel.

Who is that tactically and geopolitically smart person who promoted the establishment of such settlements? Shouldn't Mr. Sharon move to remove those settlements to protect those civilians and stop facilitating the movements of the terrorists into Israel?

Just forget about the pre 67 borders for a moment, and act with reason to protect Israel and the citizens of Israel with reason.

Israel will gain so much by removing those settlements first and last by securing the borders from the terrorist.

Let's us for once give Israel (more particularly, the Israeli politicians since you have not a single say in what is happening now) the benefit of the doubt and think that they are, unlike the tyrant and terrorist Arafat, for peace. Remove the settlements and erect the borders.

(We could walk through this process hypothetically if you would like, as a role in a peace play )
post #46 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by jakkorz:
<strong>Let's talk about the number one reason that facilitates the border crossing for the terrorists.

I keep reading articles about the settlements in the OT. Obviously they are very dispersed and wide spread along the OT borders.

rushmon, don't you think that the geographical location of such settlements would actually benefit the terrorist more than it benefits the Isralis? All these dispersed settlements along the border would provide many holes that the terrorists can use for their daily trips into Israel.

Who is that tactically and geopolitically smart person who promoted the establishment of such settlements? Shouldn't Mr. Sharon move to remove those settlements to protect those civilians and stop facilitating the movements of the terrorists into Israel?

Just forget about the pre 67 borders for a moment, and act with reason to protect Israel and the citizens of Israel with reason.

Israel will gain so much by removing those settlements first and last by securing the borders from the terrorist.

Let's us for once give Israel (more particularly, the Israeli politicians since you have not a single say in what is happening now) the benefit of the doubt and think that they are, unlike the tyrant and terrorist Arafat, for peace. Remove the settlements and erect the borders.

(We could walk through this process hypothetically if you would like, as a role in a peace play )</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let me say that in principle I agree with all you say , even though your facts are a little wrong ( the terrorists don't use the settlements to get into Israel, they can't....they use Palestinian towns and villages on the line for that). the problem is ( as I have posted above ) that Israel cannot really perform a unilateral withdraw from the OT without being rebuked by the whole world.... no one would recognize such a move .. It would force others to deal with the palestinians who would be stuck in impossible borders and would have to bear the full brunt of PA corruption and an economic meltdown. Just as you propose Israel should be ready to remove settlements ( and most Israelis support that ) the problem is that there is no one ready to accept such moves not as a result of negotiations and we cannot have any meaningful negotiations while the violence and terror continues. sounds like a catch 22.... I know.

Also Israel cannot afford to be seen to back down as a result of terror. that will be accepted by the Arab world as a sign of weakness and would invite even more intense attacks ... if the terrorists see that they gain Israeli political concessions through using violence then they would gain popular support and intensify their war, not to mention what this would do to Israel's deterrent image in the eyes of its old Arab states foes .
You see, this conflict has far reaching implications and one simply cannot ignore these. Israel must do what is right which is withdraw from the territories and remove settlements but only after a peaceful negotiation round and in an environment of calm and ceasefire and a stop to the endless terrorist attacks on it civilians.
The only other option ( which is quite a bad one ) is for Israel - after exhausting all its possible military and diplomatic resources at trying to get the PA back to the negotiating table - to perform a unilateral withdrawal to defendable borders and to remove isolated settlements and then to do what we have been doing for the past 50 years .. wait for the Arabs to give up trying to kill us nad decide that they are ready to accept us and to talk to us.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #47 of 82
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>
Let me say that in principle I agree with all you say , even though your facts are a little wrong ( the terrorists don't use the settlements to get into Israel, they can't....they use Palestinian towns and villages on the line for that). the problem is ( as I have posted above ) that Israel cannot really perform a unilateral withdraw from the OT without being rebuked by the whole world.... no one would recognize such a move .. It would force others to deal with the palestinians who would be stuck in impossible borders and would have to bear the full brunt of PA corruption and an economic meltdown. Just as you propose Israel should be ready to remove settlements ( and most Israelis support that ) the problem is that there is no one ready to accept such moves not as a result of negotiations and we cannot have any meaningful negotiations while the violence and terror continues. sounds like a catch 22.... I know.

Also Israel cannot afford to be seen to back down as a result of terror. that will be accepted by the Arab world as a sign of weakness and would invite even more intense attacks ... if the terrorists see that they gain Israeli political concessions through using violence then they would gain popular support and intensify their war, not to mention what this would do to Israel's deterrent image in the eyes of its old Arab states foes .
You see, this conflict has far reaching implications and one simply cannot ignore these. Israel must do what is right which is withdraw from the territories and remove settlements but only after a peaceful negotiation round and in an environment of calm and ceasefire and a stop to the endless terrorist attacks on it civilians.
The only other option ( which is quite a bad one ) is for Israel - after exhausting all its possible military and diplomatic resources at trying to get the PA back to the negotiating table - to perform a unilateral withdrawal to defendable borders and to remove isolated settlements and then to do what we have been doing for the past 50 years .. wait for the Arabs to give up trying to kill us nad decide that they are ready to accept us and to talk to us.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It can not be so smarter than this.

---
Leave the settlements in place because they only make the problem worse, and Palestinians snapping due to such measures only serve the greater purpose of Greater Israel.
So think with me a moment, fellow Israeli citizens. We could spare couple of lives in due process to establish our Greater Israel. But those lives will always give us a reason to stay in what they call OT [which is rightfully part of our historically documented and religiously granted by GOD greater Israel]. Isn't that genius?
You might think what should we do if we are pressed hard in due process. Well, we install couple of isolated settlements hither and thither then withdraw from those settlements if the situation requires.
So the settlements are there to stay, and we will always have the rights to infiltrate into the gentile lands and protect our fellow citizens who are living in those areas.
There should never be physical borders which will deny our rights in those lands. Erecting such borders is wrong, and will be avoided no matter how many lives we lose.
To use, as an excuse, some Palestinian work force in Greater Israel (let us say 150,000) would further support our stance in not erecting the borders. "Where would that work force go?" The international community will claim at us. "The unemployment records will sky rocket in the Palestine to be found, and Israel must help out here", The International community will require from Israel.
---

It is a very smart idea, the establishment of those settlements. Something that can effectively be used on the negotiation table.

Not peaceful politics, smart, however, it is. The mere repetitive notion of withdrawal to defendable borders is enough to deter the free from sitting on the negotiation table; not to mention signing a peace agreement. At then end, a peace agreement will be signed with the enslaved people. Enslavement does not last long, however.

I apologize for wrongfully stating that terrorists are using the settlements to infiltrate into Israel, this is due to my lack of knowledge in the exact geography of the settlements. I will look further into this and maybe I will have a much clear view about it.
post #48 of 82
Thread Starter 
jakkorz, I don't see what you are getting at .. please explain it better . who's words are you quoting there ? can you provide a source ?

I personally have always been against the settlement policy and there are many Israelis who think likewise (these days over 60% of those polled). Israel is not interested in enslaving the Palestinians or ruling over them. when seriously approached in the past for making peace with its neighbors Israel was always willing to compromise for the longer term option of peace - it has done so with Egypt, it has done so with Jordan and it had done so when signing the Oslo peace treaty with Arafat.
Let me try and make one thing abundantly clear, If the Palestinians really want their state and peace and accept Israel's right to exist in secure borders and without terror or further territorial claims to parts of pre 67 Israel they can achieve a deal tomorrow - settlements would be removed and they will have their state .. instead they seem to be trapped in the dream of 'bringing the zionist enemy to its knees' or even worse 'pushing the Jews back to the sea' ... all we can do now is sit and wait for them to wake up from this nightmare.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #49 of 82
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>jakkorz, I don't see what you are getting at .. please explain it better . who's words are you quoting there ? can you provide a source ?

I personally have always been against the settlement policy and there are many Israelis who think likewise (these days over 60% of those polled). Israel is not interested in enslaving the Palestinians or ruling over them. when seriously approached in the past for making peace with its neighbors Israel was always willing to compromise for the longer term option of peace - it has done so with Egypt, it has done so with Jordan and it had done so when signing the Oslo peace treaty with Arafat.
Let me try and make one thing abundantly clear, If the Palestinians really want their state and peace and accept Israel's right to exist in secure borders and without terror or further territorial claims to parts of pre 67 Israel they can achieve a deal tomorrow - settlements would be removed and they will have their state .. instead they seem to be trapped in the dream of 'bringing the zionist enemy to its knees' or even worse 'pushing the Jews back to the sea' ... all we can do now is sit and wait for them to wake up from this nightmare.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My deep apologies. I did not try to mislead you by that scenario to think that it is a quote, thus, I did not provide a source. Please forgive me.

Basically it boils down to one question if you can answer in one paragraph and a straightforward answer please. The question is:

What peaceful purpose(s) do the settlements serve in the OT?
post #50 of 82
The fact is that about 200 000 settlers, many of them extreemist are holding both the israeli and the palestinian population hostage.
The settlers are deeply opposed to the 67 borders.



(btw: Rashumon, I hope you relize that a idea of a unilateral is a real option (currently pushed by Haim Ramon of the israeli Labor party). And also that the purposal of full arab recognition of israel in exchange for withdrawal is on the tabel).
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #51 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by jakkorz:
<strong>

My deep apologies. I did not try to mislead you by that scenario to think that it is a quote, thus, I did not provide a source. Please forgive me.

Basically it boils down to one question if you can answer in one paragraph and a straightforward answer please. The question is:

What peaceful purpose(s) do the settlements serve in the OT?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok good question. the way I see it the settlements can be divided into 3 types:

1. Natural expansion of Pre 67 Israeli towns and villages on the border areas - a good example to this is the extensive growth around Jerusalem since 67. Jerusalem has become the largest city in Israel and many of its neighbourhoods are beyond the 67 so called green line or literally sitting on it. the actual territorial cost of this from the Palestinian land is minimal though since these are generally high density residential areas that take quite a small amount of space. most Israelis would not even accept the definition of these as settlements.

2. Security oriented military/civilian settlements - these can be found mainly along the jordan Valley and were established to strengthen Israeli presence on the Israeli Jordanian border after 67 when these countries were still enemies .. these also serve as a way of controlling and maintaining Israeli control of the Jordan river and agricultural areas in the Jordan valley which is a vital source of water in this desert area. these settlements are rather few and contain small numbers of people.

3. Ideological settlements - these were established by religious nationalist Israelis who believe that the whole of the land of Judea and Samarya ( west bank) should be parts of Israel and that it is their historical duty and right to settle this land . Various Israeli governments supported these people to varying degrees but many Israelis (myself included) view these people as misguided nationalists who should not be encouraged. many of their settlements are isolated enclaves living in the depth of Palestinian population in the west bank. these settlers are a cause of great antagonism among palestinians and are very expensive to maintain and protect from terrorist attacks. It is widely recognized in Israeli society that most if not all of these settlements would and should be removed once a real peace treaty would be achieved with the Palestinians and a Palestinian state be established.

The more thorny issues arise with the first two types, Palestinians insist on defining all three types as settlements while Israelis very in their view of what should be kept under Israeli control and what should not. though I firmly believe that if the Palestinians were really up to the challenge of finding a solution to these issues it should be relatively easy to find solutions .. many have been offered ( like land exchanges and joint sovereignty over Jerusalem etc...) but all have been rejected by the PA.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #52 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>The fact is that about 200 000 settlers, many of them extreemist are holding both the israeli and the palestinian population hostage.
The settlers are deeply opposed to the 67 borders.

IMG - <a href="http://www.btselem.org/Images/Maps/Settlements_Map_Eng.GIF" target="_blank">http://www.btselem.org/Images/Maps/Settlements_Map_Eng.GIF</a>

(btw: Rashumon, I hope you relize that a idea of a unilateral is a real option (currently pushed by Haim Ramon of the israeli Labor party). And also that the purposal of full arab recognition of israel in exchange for withdrawal is on the tabel).</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's what i'm saying in my post Re settlers but you are mistaken if you think that because of these peace cannot be achieved. Sharon himself was responsible for the evacuation in 1982 of tens of thousands of Israeli settlers from the Synai peninsula when the Israeli Egyptian peace treaty was signed. if a real agreement were to be achieved with the Palestinians these west bank settlements would be removed and solutions would be found for the other places. this is not the main issue ( though it is a vital one to solve) the primary problem ATM is the violence which is costing too many lives on both sides .. That must stop for any political progress to take place.

Re Ramon's unilateral withdrawal plan - as I have said this idea is gathering pace ( though its still rather young and unpopular atm) but the point is that even if it happens it would only be an interim solution and the palestinians would suffer badly from it.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #53 of 82
Well, I'm not to sure it's such a good plan either, but it is an alternative. What is most problematic with israeli policy today is that none of its leaders, neither likud nor labor, seems to believe in negotiation with the palestinian leadership. Are we to wait for a palestinian election before negotiations are resumed?
If you look at the current retoric beteen Pakistan and India there are obvious similarities to Sharon and Arafat. And it leads nowhere but down.

When it comes to the settlers, my understanding is that they actually are one of the main reasons for the recent violence. Palestinians feel their precens every they and their number have increased markably during the years after Oslo. The settlements (see the map) and the army presents need to maintain them are disruptive to all atempts on get a palestinian infrastructure working. All the army checkpoints inside the westbank have made the living conditions there unlivable. The reports on the deaths of unborn children due to women in labor beeing hindered from getting to birth clinics are horrible.
From israeli (your) perspective, the settlers do not pose a treath to peace, you know the will be have to moved if "peace" demands it. To the palestinians however they are the everyday proof that israel has no intentions of giving them their land back. They are the symbol of the occupation, and they think they're there to stay.

Jerusalem is the hard nut to crack here. There is no doubt that many of the settlements around Jerusalem has been built to hinder the joining of East Jerusalem with a future palestinian state. You claim they are "needed", while the fact is that the arab/palestinian population in Jerusalem have been, and still is growing at a faster rate than the israeli. Also some of the worst examples of unlawful takeover of palestinian property have come from Jerusalem.
So a "deal" on Jerusalem is crucial, and both sides will have to give here as well. There has to be a clear and open connection between Jerusalem and the west bank, but the palestinians will have to accept that not all the land will be given back. This should however be generously compensated for.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #54 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Well, I'm not to sure it's such a good plan either, but it is an alternative. What is most problematic with israeli policy today is that none of its leaders, neither likud nor labor, seems to believe in negotiation with the palestinian leadership.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

No one in Israel believes in negotiations with the PA leadership ( specifically Arafat) these days. Israel has given them way too many chances to prove they want peace and all it got back was death and terrorism. there is nothing problematic about this policy its pure survival. Ramon's plan as well is based around the assumption that Israel has no partners for negotiations and therefore must simply withdraw unilaterally.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Are we to wait for a palestinian election before negotiations are resumed?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

No ! we are to wait to a cessation of terrorism and a palestinian acceptance that violence will not help them one bit to get what they want. its very simple - stop attacking us and we will talk to you and be ready for concessions, continue the attacks and we will not talk but strike back until terrorism stops !

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
If you look at the current retoric beteen Pakistan and India there are obvious similarities to Sharon and Arafat. And it leads nowhere but down.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I see no comparison whatsoever other then the fact that these are two situations where you have a conflict.... I also fail to see the use of drawing this analogy.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
When it comes to the settlers, my understanding is that they actually are one of the main reasons for the recent violence.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

To many Palestinians and Arabs all Israelis are settlers .. from Tel Aviv to Eilat all of the land should be theirs. are we to assume this moral haze were because of settlement activity the lives of Israeli children become free game ? where will this end ? by who's definitions ? can you not see how ridiculous this mixup is ?

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Palestinians feel their precens every they and their number have increased markably during the years after Oslo. The settlements (see the map) and the army presents need to maintain them are disruptive to all atempts on get a palestinian infrastructure working.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The only thing preventing a proper infrastructure forming was the PA's corruption and the fact that it preferred using all the EU aid money for buying weapons from Iran and BMWs for their families.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
All the army checkpoints inside the west bank have made the living conditions there unlivable. The reports on the deaths of unborn children due to women in labor beeing hindered from getting to birth clinics are horrible.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

These have only become so problematic since the launch of the Intefada .. before Oct 2000 there were very few of these checkpoints ( mainly separating Israel proper from Palestinian lands ) and they were not posing a serious problem for most Palestinians to get through... this really became a problem once the violence escalated and the checkpoints became a tool in Israel's fight against Palestinian terror. the IDF makes mistakes and any loss of life is evil and sad .. but there is a simple solution to all that .. stop the fighting , get back to the negotiating table and all these stupid checkpoint would not be necessary ....

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
From israeli (your) perspective, the settlers do not pose a treath to peace, you know the will be have to moved if "peace" demands it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sure they present a threat for peace but nothing like a threat that those who are actually killing civilians pose. there can be no moral equality between murderers and settlers.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
To the palestinians however they are the everyday proof that israel has no intentions of giving them their land back. They are the symbol of the occupation, and they think they're there to stay.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

So why did they ever agree to negotiate ? settlers have been there for over 30 years now ... what's different now... come on .. every one knows Israel is willing to compromise on these issues.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #55 of 82
I believe you actually know this, but I'd like to post a quote from B'Tselems recent report on the settlements to show just how much the palestinians have actully gain from "negotiations":

"Overall, contrary to the expectations raised by the Oslo Process, the Israeli governments have implemented a policy leading to the dramatic growth of the settlements. Between September 1993, on the signing of the Declaration of Principles, and September 2001 (the time of the outbreak of the al-Aqsa intifada), the number of housing units in the settlements in the West Bank (excluding East Jerusalem) and Gaza Strip rose from 20,400 to 31,4800 _ an increase of approximately fifty-four percent in just seven years. The sharpest increase during this period was recorded in 2000, under the government headed by Ehud Barak, when the construction of almost 4,800 new housing units was commenced. At the end of 1993, the population of the West Bank settlements (excluding East Jerusalem) totaled 100,500. By the end of 2000, this figure increased to 191,600, representing a growth rate of some ninety percent. By contrast, the growth rate in the settlements in East Jerusalem was much slower: the population of these settlements totaled 146,800 in 1993 and 173,300 in 2000 an increase of just eighteen percent."

In this light, how can one expect the palestinians not to react? Negotiate a few more years until there is no land left. The truth is that Israel has to take much of the blame for the failing of Oslo.
For the record, I strongly oppose the terrorist bombing, but as the Mitchell report states, the 2nd intifada started out with mainly peaceful demonstrations, to which IDF responded unreasonably violent, shooting to death dozens of unarmed demonstrators. This is where the recent violence has buildt up from. Don't tell give me the old Israel is only a responding to terrorism bs.

If what Israel got back was nothing but violence, it was because it was not willing to give anything substantial. Its a tragedy that not one of four potential israeli leaders (2 likud, 2 labor) consider negotiations with Arafat an option.
The reason I mention India and pakistan is because they say exactly the same things. "India has almost lost its patience with Pakistan", "Pakistan will not submit to Indian pressure etc. etc." The same words, the same lack of potentially stabelizing and peaceful long-time results.
Most palestinians are willing to accept something on the lines of the 67-borders, stop quoting the few how don't.
Palestinian corruption (nomatter how bad) did not expand israeli settlements, stop acting like it did. The fact is that the recent millitary operations have destroyed more than corruption ever did.
The checkpoints where needed more with every expansion of the settlements they didn't "re-appear" because of the new intifada.

And I ofcourse agree, that there is no moral equality between murderers and settlers. Unless the settlers commit murder, which there is statistically over 50 examples of since Oslo. (There are a lot of extreemist among the settlers)

I hope I don't come across as to agressive. I really appreciate your open mindedness, but I think you are letting the day by day happenings define your view on this, and fail to see some of the bigger perspectives.

[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #56 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>If what Israel got back was nothing but violence, it was because it was not willing to give anything substantial. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh please .. new come on ... this is ridiculous ! Israel helped the PA establish itself, it withdrew from most of the West bank and almost all of Gaza it armed the PA's security apparatus ( with Arms that are being used against its citizens nowdays) and over all of that it was willing to remove most of the settlements and withdraw from effectively all of the OT in Taba and Camp David summits.. how many times do I have to say this ? the PA was offered all that you say they want and they rejected it ! more then once !

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Its a tragedy that not one of four potential Israeli leaders (2 likud, 2 labor) consider negotiations with Arafat an option.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

NO ! the tragedy is that Arafat is still using terror despite all the warnings he has had, its a tragedy the you and others cannot see Arafat's agenda clearly and still think Israel can do business with him when its clear to all who look at the situation that the man is obsessed by his failed armed struggle and with redeeming his lost honor ... virtually all of the recent ( last few weeks) suicide attacks performed against Israel have been done by Fatah activists directly answerable to Arafat .. Israel cannot talk to a man who does not stand by his word and uses terror against its civilians while claiming to want peace ! THAT'S THE TRAGEDY !

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Most Palestinians are willing to accept something on the lines of the 67-borders, stop quoting the few how don't.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well then why don't they stop attacking us ?????

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Palestinian corruption (no matter how bad) did not expand Israeli settlements,
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Israeli settlements did not create Palestinian terrorism either despite the fact that building them was an immoral stupid act by Israel....

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The checkpoints where needed more with every expansion of the settlements they didn't "re-appear" because of the new intifada.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's simply false ..I have been to the OT many times during the 90s and you had virtually nil road blocks when things were quite ( nothing to do with settlements ) the few that were there were very lean and hardly ever stopped anyone. nothing like the way it is these days.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I hope I don't come across as to aggressive. I really appreciate your open mindedness, but I think you are letting the day by day happenings define your view on this, and fail to see some of the bigger perspectives.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think so at all .. the whole point of this thread is the bigger perspective... I am ready to take full responsibility for Israel's mistakes as I have said dozens of times.... but ONE THING MUST BE CLEAR .. the violence must stop for any progress to take place and the Palestinians must learn to compromise just as we have learnt to compromise....
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #57 of 82
Thread Starter 
A little more about the unilateral separation option .. from <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=169232&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">Haaretzdaily.com</a> [quote]

Analysis / The barrier will finally come

By Ze'ev Schiff




Recent suicide strikes will at last put an end to delays in the construction of a fence around the West Bank. The defense minister held discussions last night to immediately implement an emergency separation fence resembling the barrier which closes off the Gaza Strip. Some 20 contractors are to work on the fence.

The positioning of the fence will depend upon the physical contours of the land. In many cases, it will not be put up exactly along the Green Line, the border which was in effect until the 1967 Six-Day War.

In the past, Israeli officials have delayed construction of such a fence due to concerns that it would effectively demarcate the country's future borders. When Prime Minister Ariel Sharon spoke about creating border zones, he was clearly referring to the establishment of a barrier some 10 kilometers inside the West Bank. In contrast, Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer told associates yesterday that he views the fence primarily from a security standpoint: Its purpose, he believes, is to block terrorist crossings. For Ben-Eliezer, considerations of how the fence might affect future negotiations about borders are not of primary importance. Also, for Ben-Eliezer, the security consideration precedes Palestinian economic and civil interests.

Unlike in the Gaza Strip, it is clear dozens of settlements will remain on the other side of the West Bank fence. The fence, therefore, will not only run between the Palestinian Authority and Israel's Green Line border, to a certain extent, it will run between Jewish settlements and Israel's Green Line border and Israel will have to create corridors leading to and from such isolated settlements.

The separation fence will not provide total protection. Israel Defense Force soldiers and weapons will have to supplement the fence, and IDF operations within Palestinian lands will continue. In tandem with the fence construction project, the IDF expects to continue operations in Palestinian cities whenever intelligence information points to terror preparations and activities in them.

Carrying out such operations, the IDF does not show any special deference to "A," Palestinian Authority-controlled areas. The discovery that Tanzim, essentially Fatah, operatives have been behind recent suicide strikes has strengthened this tendency not to differentiate between "A" lands and other areas in the territories. Israeli security officials believe yesterday's bombing in Petah Tikva was the work of Tanzim men.

Also yesterday, Israel notched an importation operational success: Thanks to effective intelligence information, security forces were able to track down the terror band which carried out the recent street promenade attack in Rishon Letzion. The intelligence reports reached Israeli officials on Sunday night. The estimate was that as soon as the gang members sensed Israel was about to close in on them, they'd seek sanctuary in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity or a local hospital. This in fact happened, but Israeli soldiers staged an ambush near the church and the terrorists fled, before being apprehended.


<hr></blockquote>

[ 05-28-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #58 of 82
What I see on that map is shamefull. If you honestly believe that what that map exhibits is in no way responcible for the Palastinian attacks then you need to think again. Surely their methods are outright wrong and not justified . . . but looking at the settlements . . . and knowing from interviews with settlers, what they think of Palastinians (as subhuman), I can't help but think that two things need to happen SIMULTANEOUSLY

1. Settlements MUST be dismantled!!!!!

2. Terrorism MUST stop!!!!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #59 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>What I see on that map is shamefull. If you honestly believe that what that map exhibits is in no way responcible for the Palastinian attacks then you need to think again. Surely their methods are outright wrong and not justified . . . but looking at the settlements . . . and knowing from interviews with settlers, what they think of Palastinians (as subhuman), I can't help but think that two things need to happen SIMULTANEOUSLY

1. Settlements MUST be dismantled!!!!!

2. Terrorism MUST stop!!!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am getting tired of saying this ... I am against the settlements ( as are most Israelis)
but the main point is that removing them was a main element of the Camp David plan and PM Barak and President Clinton's suggestions at the Taba summit . the Palestinians rejected all that ...

Violence must stop FIRST or else Israel's actions would be seen as a victory for terror and violence and then the attacks will never stop they will get worse and worse ...

A very logical simple solution - ceasefire - negotiations and then Israeli withdrawal !
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #60 of 82
Even Isreali soldiers say that the settlers treat Palastinians like dirt, and the rest of Palestine (or Judae or whatever your ideology befits as a name)as a garbage dump .. . .

but the point is is that these Israelis that acknwledge this should look closely at themselves and recognize that the inaction with regard to settlements is a very large part of the problem (the other parts being that many PA just want to irradicate Israel)

during the Oslo peace the settlements were expanding!!! come on admit it and do something about it..&gt; not because of the terror bombings, but because they are wrong and racist and unjust.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #61 of 82
[quote] Violence must stop FIRST or else Israel's actions would be seen as a victory for terror and violence and then the attacks will never stop they will get worse and worse <hr></blockquote>

i can almost see the reasonong by the Israeli right: on the ouside they say "the violence must stop first" on the inside they say 'the violence, if it only costs one or two a week, provides us with reason to stay where we are....and even maybe to keep building... if they keep it up clearly we will be justified in booting them completely out or our righteously god-appointed lands of milk and honey...so, keep it comin." Cynical, I know, but sometimes I wonder . . . after all what about those attempts to bomb schools recently?!?!?

Israel is not the innocent lamb it wants us to believe . . . and I see this and support Israel in many ways.... just not with settlements and no more expansion.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #62 of 82
Thread Starter 
To try and bring this thread closer to its original focus .... Should this country be allowed to be a member of the security council ?
another interesting <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=171675&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">article</a>...
[quote]
Report: Syria supplying long-range Katyushas to Hezbollah
By Ha'aretz Service

In recent weeks Syria has been manufacturing and supplying weapons, including long-range Katyusha rockets, directly to the militant Hezbollah organization in southern Lebanon, Channel One television reported Friday evening.

According to the report, the Syrians had been providing Hezbollah with weapons from Iran, but these weapons did not include long-range Katyusha rockets. In recent weeks, however, Damascus has begun supplying Hezbollah with Syrian-made Katyusha rockets with a range of 60-70 kilometers.

The report did not specify the amount of weapons supplied.

Since the IDF withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Hezbollah has carried out operations in the Shaba Farms area on a regular basis.

Ha'aretz reported in April that Israel believes that Syrian President Bashar Assad has changed his position toward Hezbollah - possibly on the assumption that Israel cannot afford a flare-up in the north.

This was in contrast to Syria's policy following the September 11 attacks in the U.S., when Damascus reined in Hezbollah and changed the weapons transportation routes to the organization so that the weapons no longer

This was in contrast to Syria's policy following the September 11 attacks in the U.S., when Damascus reined in Hezbollah and changed the weapons transportation routes to the organization so that the weapons no longer traveled through Syria.<hr></blockquote>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #63 of 82
some day on the French radio of information : France Info i eard a journalist speakinf of Arafat : the journalist clearly stated that Arafat has a second army the Fatah wich commited many terrorisms acts.
He said also that there where support from 3 country : Saudi arabia (one of my favorite countrie in the world ...) , an another state (sorry but i forgot it) and IRAK, sadam give 15000 $ of compensation after each suicide attack.

Many palestinians see Arafat as a heroe, but he is totally lame and hypocryte. It will be difficult to have peace with him at the power. I do not appreciate Sharon my self (but i do not place him at the same level), but contrary to Palestine, Israel is a democratia and is leader will change in the future. I don't think that there can be peace with Arafat, but the only one who can remove him is the palestinians themselves. Many palestinians are too blinded by their hate agains Israel to see the true nature of Arafat. I have no doubt that with a better leader the situation will be much better.
post #64 of 82
Thread Starter 
powerdoc , re Sharon and Arafat ..... couldent have said it better myself ... good points
We badly need peace and these two dont seem to be very interested in this...
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #65 of 82
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>powerdoc , re Sharon and Arafat ..... couldent have said it better myself ... good points
We badly need peace and these two dont seem to be very interested in this...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks, rashumon, it's alway a pleasure to participate to constructive threads
post #66 of 82
It's stupid to call this a Sharon vs Arafat thing. Israel went through ..what?... 12 PMs with no peace with Arafat. What's the one constant over those years. Arafat.

Exile him now. He's a terrorist. We have the proof. Let Palestine have a political process like a normal country. I'd like to hear the campaign speeches they'd have to give to get elected. Then we'll see just what they Palestinian people will vote for.
post #67 of 82
[quote]I'd like to hear the campaign speeches they'd have to give to get elected. <hr></blockquote>


LOL. Indeed.

Candidate 1: "I promise to continue murdering the infidels" (applause)

Candidate 2: "I promise to bring an end to war and create a true Palestinian state" (more aplause)

Candidate 3 " I promise to publicly do what candidate #2 said, but privately and secretly do what candidate #1 said" (crowd erupts with pleasure....candidate three wins with an 80% margin).
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #68 of 82
I don´t have the time to get dragged in to yet another Israel/Palestine discussion right now (exams take too much time). But I...umm... stumbled across this picture of a beatiful Miss Israel.



Now if I was a palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank I would be rather puzzled about what Israels intentions is when someone representing Israel (yes she isn´t the prime minister but still...) is wearing a dress with a map like that on it. She was the only one to wear a map on her dress afaik so it sends an intended message unmistakenly IMO.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
post #69 of 82
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>I don´t have the time to get dragged in to yet another Israel/Palestine discussion right now (exams take too much time). But I...umm... stumbled across this picture of a beatiful Miss Israel.



Now if I was a palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank I would be rather puzzled about what Israels intentions is when someone representing Israel (yes she isn´t the prime minister but still...) is wearing a dress with a map like that on it. She was the only one to wear a map on her dress afaik so it sends an intended message unmistakenly IMO.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yes I agree. When her children get blown up by a bomber I'll blame her for it then fund the Jew killers with my EU money.
post #70 of 82
[quote] Yes I agree. When her children get blown up by a bomber I'll blame her for it then fund the Jew killers with my EU money. <hr></blockquote>You continue to be as simplistic a thinker as ever. . . but now you do it with a series of letters behind it . . .

doesn't fool me though, its clear you still are as reactionary and monocular as ever.

The bombing MUST stop and I support the military actions by Sharon as they are responces to the bombings, however, that does not mean that I should support Israel's tacit acceptance of the settlements, and, the manner in which the settlers treat the Palastinians, and also, the continued expansion of those settlements.

Look at that map, it seems to imply that the state of Israel includes all of the land of the Palastinians.... what would that say if that were truly intended as such? where is the Palastinian state in that map? Perhaps it is merely an innocent gesture meant to show where she is from?!?!

Then again maybe it reveals some kind of psuedo-mythic religious thinking that she is Miss Israel representing all Israely women and therefore she is metaphorically the Israely Motherland . . . I say this, which sounds like the kind of crazy earth and soil mysticism of teh Nazis, because I KNOW that a majority of the settlers believe that kind of extreme stuff, in an interview with settlers one said: " I look at the Jews building here and I see Messiah awakening" . . . . . . this of course was ensconced amid much rhetoric about the literal non-humanness of Arabs.

anyway . . it is possible to support Israel, as I do, but still find this kind of take disturbing . . . and I think that it would be partly criminal to pretend that there is absolutely no injustice taking place .. . . on both sides.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #71 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by scott_h_phd:
<strong>It's stupid to call this a Sharon vs Arafat thing. Israel went through ..what?... 12 PMs with no peace with Arafat. What's the one constant over those years. Arafat.

Exile him now. He's a terrorist. We have the proof. Let Palestine have a political process like a normal country. I'd like to hear the campaign speeches they'd have to give to get elected. Then we'll see just what they Palestinian people will vote for.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dude .. most Isarelis would agree with you there .. the guy is nothing but trouble.. has always been ....without him Palestinians could have had a state ages ago.. trouble is - your dear secretary of state insists on protecting him... and so does every EU politicians out there .... israel can't expel him without support from the US nor can it select the Palestinian's leaders for them.... its a F***** up prblem !
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #72 of 82
Thread Starter 
Just on that subject .... the <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=173340&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1 &contrassID=2" target="_blank">original is here...</a>

Analysis / U.S. impatience with Arafat could spur new IDF attack
By Bradley Burston, Ha'aretz Correspondent

Thirty-five years to the hour of the outbreak of a war that Israelis hoped would end all Mideast wars, a bomb-hauling Islamic Jihad suicide driver incinerated a crowded commuter bus Wednesday near the traditional site of the end of the world, killing at least 16 people and fueling fears of a Palestinian "megaterror" attack still in the works.

But with few tangible signs of progress in CIA Director George Tenet's mission to persuade Yasser Arafat to reform his security services into structures that could block attacks on Israelis, there were signs that Washington might relax its restraints on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government, with a new IDF onslaught in the territories a possible consequence.

Israel's chief of military intelligence said on the eve of the suicide car bombing that militant Palestinian groups were planning "megaterror" attacks to raise the ante of attacks within the Jewish state.

His words were underscored by a high-profile major exercise by rescue services near Tel Aviv Tuesday. The chilling scenario of the simulated terror strike: an airplane clashes into a skyscraper, whose foundations are undermined by a simultaneous car bomb in its underground parking garage, and whose tenants are further placed at peril by an explosive device planted in an upper story.

Analysts said 'megaterror' could spell deaths in the hundreds, or even thousands, in one of the world's most volatile military theaters.

As if the point needed further amplification, the Wednesday attack took place near Har Megiddo, or Armeggedon, site of countless ancient battles between implacable enemies, and by some traditions, the launch site of the end of the world.

The Islamic Jihad operation was much more powerful in scope than past attacks involving a bomb belt secreted on the body of a suicide attacker. Some analysts viewed it as the forerunner of horrendous megaterror attempts, such as the reported bid to detonate a full ton of explosives under the Twin Tower-like silhouette of Tel Aviv's 50-story Azrieli Center.

But if Israelis were consumed with doomsday worries, Palestinian anxieties were at high pitch as well.

In the past, devastating suicide bombings involving scores of casualties have prompted the White House to gave a tacit green light to its ally Israel, which then launched massive retaliatory strikes against Palestinian targets, often concentrating its firepower on the very Palestinian Authority security agencies that Israel held responsible for preventing terrorism.

A Palestinian official in Ramallah was quoted Wednesday as saying that Tenet had told Arafat that if terror attacks continue, the beleaguered Palestinian leader "will stand alone before Sharon's might." Tenet was said to have warned Arafat that "the United States will not intervene, and Sharon will have a free hand."

Israeli fears also underscored the nation's distance from the elation that had characterized the victory in 1967 over its Arab neighbors. Fearing that an Arab victory could mean a reprise of the World War Two Nazi Holocaust that saw the annihilation of European Jewry, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike that crippled Arab air capabilities, and led to the capture of the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the Golan Heights from Syria, and East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan.

In the space of six days, Israel went from being the world's largest ghetto to the world's newest empire. Asked Wednesday if Israel believed at the time that it had seen the last of its many wars, former air force chief Mordechai Hod said "We weren't sure, but we hoped so." In the end, however, as the territories turned into a liability rather than a blessing, Hod acknowledged, the war justified the designation, "the curse of having been blessed."

Senior Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat picked up the theme, saying that Israel's recent military operations had failed to yield anything other than Palestinian rage, the ultimate driving-force behind terrorism.

"Today, June 5, marks 35 years of the continuing Israeli occupation, with no end in sight." Erekat said, adding that Israel should move back to the negotiating table, rather than back into Palestinian cities. "The Israeli army carried out 93 military incursions in the West Bank last month alone, and they get these results."

Israel had seen to it that the Palestinian Authority was powerless to stand in the way of militant attacks on Israel, Erekat told CNN. "The Israeli army is in total control of the West bank. We have no authority any more, and that's very sure. We have the tightest closure and siege ever, where movement of Palestinians is prevented anywhere, and then these things (attacks) happen, and they blame us."

But Education Minister Limor Livnat of Sharon's ruling Likud said Wednesday that Israel would likely have no choice but to re-enter Palestinian cities and stay to fight there for prolonged periods.

"There is no doubt that Israel cannot sit quietly, and refrain from considering an operation, a very, very significant response, in order to prevent disasters of this type," she said.

As Livnat spoke, IDF forces entered the West Bank city of Jenin, a hotbed of Islamic Jihad militancy, in what Israeli officials called an "initial response" to the bus bombing.

Sharon is scheduled to meet President George W. Bush at the White House on June 10. His previous visit, a month before, was curtailed by a suicide bombing in a Tel Aviv suburb which took the lives of 15 people.

The prime minister might also cut short the upcoming visit, notes Ha'aretz commentator Akiva Eldar, but he is unlikely to cancel it, coming as it does on the heels of a scheduled White House visit by Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. As of now, Washington generally agrees with Egypt that Sharon is mistaken in calling for the sidelining of Arafat as a pre-condition for any future diplomatic progress.

"It may be, however, that this attack could spark a change in the American's viewpoint, and cause the Americans to move closer to the prime minister's point of view." In any event, Eldar argues, "After President Bush's meeting with Mubarak, Prime Minister Sharon will want to be the last person that the president hears from on these matters.

"It may be, however, that this attack could spark a change in the American's viewpoint, and cause the Americans to move closer to the prime minister's point of view." In any event, Eldar argues, "After President Bush's meeting with Mubarak, Prime Minister Sharon will want to be the last person that the president hears from on these matters.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #73 of 82
A few articles that I have read just today. They seem to touch on this in many ways.

The White House will not let Israel Deal with Arafat. Arafat continue his belligerance as usual.
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020606/ap_wo_en_po/us_mideast_82&printer=1" target="_blank">Yahoo! News</a>

Israel's response to the bus bombing from the peace loving Arabs. Arafat plays the victim. My favorite quote:
[quote]Pointing to his dust-covered bed, broken bedroom mirror and shattered bathroom tiles, Arafat later suggested Israel was trying to harm him. "I was supposed to sleep here last night but I had some work downstairs," he said. "Of course they (the Israelis) knew where I was. Everybody knows this is my bedroom."<hr></blockquote>
I think he's on to them.
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4655-2002Jun6.html" target="_blank">Washington Post</a>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #74 of 82
Talking about quotes, I came over this one today:

[quote]"What is to become of the Palestinians?" "Oh," Sharon said, "we'll make a pastrami sandwich of them." I said, "What?" He said, "Yes, we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlement, in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in twenty-five years time, neither the United Nations, nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart".<hr></blockquote>

Winston S. Churchill III (journalist, former member of Parliament, and grandson of the British prime minister) at the National Press Club, October 10, 2001, recalling his conversation with then-General (res.) Ariel Sharon in 1973.

The man with the plan...

[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #75 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Talking about quotes, I came over this one today:............................................ .........
........... Ariel Sharon in 1973.[/i]

The man with the plan...

[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thats says what exactly ? a vague quote from 30 years ago ? you can probably dig up dodgy quotes from anyone.. proves nothing about things today !

How about these ones of Arafat if it's quotes we're into :
[quote]
The ensuing article, entitled: "Arafat's Secret Agenda Is to Wear Israelis Out" appeared in the April 1, 1996 issue of Insight magazine in Washington D.C. written by this correspondent. Additional comments follow the article:

In the dark shadow of horrific suicide bombings in Israel carried out by Hamas terrorists operating from the safe haven of Mr. Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA), an Israeli government which had asserted that the leopard of the Palestine Liberation Organization had changed its spots, finds itself questioning its basic premise: Does Yasser Arafat really believe in the peace process with Israel, and what are his true intentions?

According to reports of an unpublicized January meeting between Mr. Arafat and Swedish-based Arab diplomats in Stockholm, Arafat estimates that the final-stage agreements between the Palestinians and Israel will ultimately bring about Israel's collapse. He reportedly told the diplomats that a migration of Arabs to "the West Bank and Jerusalem" and the psychological warfare the Palestinians would wage against the Israelis would cause a massive emigration of Jews to the United States. "We Palestinians will takeover everything, including all of Jerusalem," the PLO leader declared, claiming Israeli leaders "Peres and Beilin have already promised us half of Jerusalem. The Golan Heights have already been given away, subject to just a few details."

"We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps," Arafat reportedly declared. "Within five years, we will have six to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. All Palestinian Arabs will be welcomed by us. If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbeks and Ukranians as Jews, we can import all kinds of Arabs to us." He added that the PLO plans "to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews won't want to live among us Arabs."

Mr. Arafat's meeting took place on January 30th, in Stockholm's Grand Hotel shortly after an official state dinner in his honor sponsored by Sweden's Foreign Minister. Unlike the "Jihad" speech given by Mr. Arafat in a Johannesburg mosque two years ago, no recording exists. However, an investigation by Israel's Channel 7 (Arutz Sheva) Radio news (which also released the Johannesburg tape) has confirmed the existence and authenticity of a transcript, as have Swedish sources and Murray Kahl, editor of Israeli & Global News. Channel 7 broadcast excerpts on Feb. 14th.

The next day, the Israeli Hebrew language dailies Ha'aretz and Ma'ariv both ran the story quoting Channel 7 Radio, and Ma'ariv translated the radio report to Arabic and passed it on to Arafat's office in Gaza requesting comment. Arafat told Ma'ariv that the story was "not true and not accurate." He then admitted that the secret meeting had, in fact, occurred but claimed the Arab ambassadors came on their own initiative to congratulate him on his boldness in pursuing peace with Israel and his victory in the Palestinian elections. [Mr. Arafat failed to explain, why, if the meeting's content was as he alleged, it was kept such a secret until Arutz 7's broadcast exposed its having took place. YA]

Two days later, the conservative Norwegian newspaper Dagen published new details regarding Arafat's speech under a front-page headline declaring: "Arafat Gave Speech about Israel's Destruction." The Jerusalem Post ran the story Feb. 23, and on Feb. 24, the Swedish weekly Magazinet published excerpts from the speech. Meanwhile, three prominent Israeli writers, Chaim Guri, Aharon Amir and Aharon Meged took note of the Channel 7 and Dagen's reportage and published articles in leading Israeli newspapers expressing deep concern [over Arafat's true intentions and the Peres government's inability to recognize them. YA] <hr></blockquote>

Or this:

[quote]In a November 1995 radio address:"The struggle will continue until ALL of Palestine is liberated."<hr></blockquote>

or this ?...
[quote]When we stopped the intifada we did not stop the jihad to establish Palestine with Jerusalem as our capital.... We know only one word: jihad, jihad, jihad ... We are in a conflict with the Zionist movement, the Balfour Declaration, and all imperialist activity." Yasser Arafat, Daheisha refugee camp. (Yediot Ahronot, Oct 23) <hr></blockquote>

or what about this :
(excerpts from a speech given by PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat on May 10, 1994, in a mosque in Johannesburg)
[quote]The Jihad [Islamic holy war] will continue, and Jerusalem is not [only] for the Palestinian people, it is for all the Muslim nation.
You are responsible for Palestine and for Jerusalem before me [applause], the land which had been blessed for the whole world.
Now after this agreement you have to understand our main battle.
Our main battle is Jerusalem. Jerusalem. The first shrine of the Moslems.
This has to be understood for everybody and for this I was insisting before signing to have a letter from them, the Israelis, that Jerusalem is one of the items which has to be under discussion and not the state, the permanent State of Israel! No! It is the permanent State of Palestine [applause]. Yes, it is the permanent State of Palestine.
And in this letter it is very important for everybody to know I insist to mention and they have written it, and I have this letter, I didn't declare and publish it until now. In this letter we are responsible for all the Christian and the Moslem and Islamic holy sacred places.
I have to speak frankly, I can't do it alone without the support of the Islamic nation. I can't do it alone. No, you have to come and to fight and to start the Jihad to liberate Jerusalem, your first shrine.
In the agreement I insist with my colleagues, with my brothers, to mention that not exceeding the beginning of the third year, and after -- directly after -- the signing of their agreement, to start discussing the future of Jerusalem. The future of Jerusalem.
What they are saying is that [Jerusalem] is their capital. No, it is not their capital. It is our capital. It is the first shrine of the Islam and the Moslems.
This agreement, I am not considering it more than the agreement which had been signed between our prophet Mohammed and Koraish, and you remember the Caliph Omar had refused this agreement and [considered] it a despicable truce.

[Ed. note: The agreement with Koraish allowed Mohammed to pray in Mecca, which was under Koraish control, for ten years. When Mohammed grew stronger two years later, he abrogated the agreement, slaughtered the tribe of Koraish and conquered Mecca.] <hr></blockquote>

[quote]"Be blessed, O Gaza, and celebrate, for your sons are returning after a long celebration. O Gaza, your sons are returning. O Jaffa, O Lod, O Haifa, O Jerusalem, you are returning, you are returning."
--- P.L.O. Chairman Yasser Arafat, at a reception held in his honor in Gaza (Maariv, 7 September 1995) <hr></blockquote>

[quote]"Yes, we are proud of the Palestinian girl, the Palestinian woman and the Palestinian child who fulfilled these miracles. The Palestinian woman participated in the Palestinian revolution. The Palestinian girl participated in the Palestinian revolution. Abir al-Wahidi, commander of the central region [al-Wahidi participated in the murder of Israeli Zvi Klein in December 1991] and Dalal al-Maghrabi, Martyr of Palestine [al-Maghrabi took part in the Coastal Road Massacre in March 1978, in which 37 Israelis were killed]. I bow in respect and admiration to the Palestinian woman who receives her martyred son with joyful cheering. The soul and blood for you, O Palestine!"
--- P.L.O. Chairman Yasser Arafat, in a speech given on 3 September 1995 at the al-Fatah girls school in Gaza to mark the opening of the school year (Israel Channel Two Television, 19 September 1995) <hr></blockquote>


HAPPY ??

Have you found a solution yet ? ...Apart from blaming it all on Sharon ?

[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #76 of 82
Thread Starter 
NEW ?
You have gone a bit quite ? mind you all those quotes are from the years Arafat refers to as the "time of the peace of the brave" when moderate Labor PM's Rabin and Peres were in power in Israel and the Oslo process was at its peak !
Its clear that Arafat has had a clear agenda since then and that his final Aim was/is the destruction of Israel and its people !
How can you seriously expect any sensible self preserving Israeli to take this man seriously or to be willing to give in to even an inch of his demands when its so clear what his ultimate goal is ?
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #77 of 82
[quote]NEW ?
You have gone a bit quite ?
<hr></blockquote>
Well, beeing self-employed, and a father sometimes take up most of the day...

[quote] mind you all those quotes are from the years Arafat refers to as the "time of the peace of the brave" when moderate Labor PM's Rabin and Peres were in power in Israel and the Oslo process was at its peak !
Its clear that Arafat has had a clear agenda since then and that his final Aim was/is the destruction of Israel and its people !
<hr></blockquote>
Still think I'm a big fan of Arafat do you?
I won't even waste your time starting on those quotes. My regard for him is limited to accepting him as the choosen leader of the palestinians, and the negotiation partner of Sharon, I'm actually more concerned with the human rights of the palestinian people...
My point is that Sharon has had his "ultimate" goals for all these years, and even if you won't admit it, you can see these policies beeing put into life every day. Stop hiding behind Arafat, he'll be replaced in time anyway.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #78 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Still think I'm a big fan of Arafat do you?
I won't even waste your time starting on those quotes. My regard for him is limited to accepting him as the choosen leader of the palestinians, and the negotiation partner of Sharon, I'm actually more concerned with the human rights of the palestinian people...
My point is that Sharon has had his "ultimate" goals for all these years, and even if you won't admit it, you can see these policies beeing put into life every day. Stop hiding behind Arafat, he'll be replaced in time anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Still think I'm a big fan of Sharon do you ?
Stop hiding behind Sharon he'll be replaced soon by democratic elections.....Arafat on the other hand.... will stay as the destroyer of the Palestinians .... on and on and on and on and on.........he's just finished his much anticipated reforms ...... LOL, what a clown nothing has changed .. Israelis and plestinians are still dying daily
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #79 of 82
LOL, good reply!

If this is your view, than you have certainly wasted a lot of time making excuses for the settlement policy...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #80 of 82
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New: <strong>LOLL, good reply! If this is your view, than you have certainly wasted a lot of time making excuses for the settlement policy...</strong><hr></blockquote>

What the hell ???
Where have I made excuses for the settlement policy ?
What are you talking about ?
You insult me with this twisting of facts !
Indeed I have repeatedly said that I believe the settlement policy to be Israel's greatest mistake .. read my posts and don't misquote me please ! <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

What I did say was that there can be no moral equivalence between settlers and terrorists !
I have also said that ( and proved that point on many occasions) Arafat is a plain liar and a terrorist and that he has missed every chance to gain Palestinian statehood or advancement for his people - He has a clear and obvious aim which is the ultimate destruction of my country .. and you expect me to accept him as a peace partner ...LOL <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
You keep going back to the point of the settlements as if you believe that by some miracle the removal of these would make the Arab world suddenly accept Israel ( which for most Arabs is itself a one big settlement) and bring peace and stability to the region - a peace which this region has never seen, even long before any settlements were built.
Arafat and the PLO have been calling for the destruction of Israel long before 67 and so did and still does Syria (Which is chairing the security council these days BTW)...

New, if you care so much about injustice why is it the you don't care about all these facts , why is it that you don't really care about the rights of the Israeli civilians who die daily ?

It's clear that a withdrawal like the one you propose would lead to an increase in terror attacks on civilians ... Arafat would be vindicated, he would have finally found the way to remove the Israeli presence form their Palestine ... keep using terror and slowly the Israelis would retreat until there is no where to go for them .... Arafat himself has pretty much spelt this tactic out in the quotes I posted above..

What hope do you offer Israelis with the 'pack up and get out' approach you suggest for Israel ?

An answer would be nice !

[ 06-11-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Terrorism at the Security Council