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post #121 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I guess you didn't believe me when I said I am done debating this. It's true, and I am.

I did not believe you the first time you said it. I don't believe you this time either.
post #122 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

I did not believe you the first time you said it. I don't believe you this time either.

I actually believe him this time. He clammed up pretty well and started getting all slippery and vague (modifying his argument, etc) when it became clear that he had lost this debate in a big way.

I think he was just being stubborn and didn't want to be wrong. If he picks it up again, he's not just stubborn. He's a fool.

Thompson
post #123 of 131
This must be the most successful product launch in Apple's history. No technical problems (that I'm aware of), everybody loves it and it's selling like hot cakes. The product manager for the iPad deserves a pat on the back. I can't wait for next year when hopefully v2 comes out with the retina display and facetime camera to make it even better.
post #124 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

I actually believe him this time. He clammed up pretty well and started getting all slippery and vague (modifying his argument, etc) when it became clear that he had lost this debate in a big way.

I think he was just being stubborn and didn't want to be wrong. If he picks it up again, he's not just stubborn. He's a fool.

Thompson

Dr. Millmoss is easily one of the more thoughtful, articulate posters on these boards. For what it's worth, I share his sense of the primary meaning of word (there's a reason "allegations" is never used outside of speaking of wrongdoing).

Graceful users of English aren't working pedantically from a dictionary; they consider the multivalent implications of the vocabulary at hand and choose accordingly. For anyone who cares, "alleged" carries a strong implication of accusation of malfeasance, which is why we don't talk about alleged tuna fish or luxury cars unless we mean to say that something inferior is being passed off as same.

You, on the other hand, with your braying insults and relentless bullying, are a graceless donkey.
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post #125 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

For anyone who cares, "alleged" carries a strong implication of accusation of malfeasance, which is why we don't talk about alleged tuna fish or luxury cars unless we mean to say that something inferior is being passed off as same..

In general we dont talk about alleged tuna fish, or luxury cars because that would be an awkward sytax. You could say "Bob is allegedly driving a Merc", or "Bob is allegedly eating only tuna these days". The usage: " Bob is driving an alleged Merc', or "Only eats alleged Tuna" is incorrect because it sounds like the make of the car, or the type of fish, is in dispute even to people who have seen it. Would be the same with reported. Or purported. Or supposed. Although I have heard that form used too.

Some reporting gets this wrong, describing someone as an alleged suspect; when he is definitely a suspect just not definitely a criminal.

Where I come from allegedly is used all the time for non-wrongdoing.
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post #126 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

In general we dont talk about alleged tuna fish, or luxury cars because that would be an awkward sytax. You could say "Bob is allegedly driving a Merc", or "Bob is allegedly eating only tuna these days". The usage: " Bob is driving an alleged Merc', or "Only eats alleged Tuna" is incorrect because it sounds like the make of the car, or the type of fish, is in dispute even to people who have seen it. Would be the same with reported. Or purported. Or supposed. Although I have heard that form used too.

Some reporting gets this wrong, describing someone as an alleged suspect; when he is definitely a suspect just not definitely a criminal.

Where I come from allegedly is used all the time for non-wrongdoing.

You could say those things, but it would give it a slightly humorous cast owing to the mismatch between the gravitas of allegedly and the domesticity of the thing described-- eating tuna fish or driving a Merc. That's because alleged is irrevocably tethered to allegation, and allegation is much closer to accusation or charge than to rumor or reporting. Thus, allegedly carries the fraught weight of motivation on the part of someone making an accusation, just as "rumored" carries its far more casual and benign inflection of someone hearing tell], "reported" its relatively neutral suggestion of impartiality and "supposed" the open to debate vagueness of someone indulging in speculation.

As I say, good usage is a matter of tonality and nuance, not grasping at definitions. And as Dr Millmoss pointed out, there's not a desk editor worth his salt who wouldn't at least caution against the promiscuous use of alleged where rumored or supposed would do.
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post #127 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

You could say those things, but it would give it a slightly humorous cast owing to the mismatch between the gravitas of allegedly and the domesticity of the thing described-- eating tuna fish or driving a Merc. That's because alleged is irrevocably tethered to allegation, and allegation is much closer to accusation or charge than to rumor or reporting. Thus, allegedly carries the fraught weight of motivation on the part of someone making an accusation, just as "rumored" carries its far more casual and benign inflection of someone hearing tell], "reported" its relatively neutral suggestion of impartiality and "supposed" the open to debate vagueness of someone indulging in speculation.

As I say, good usage is a matter of tonality and nuance, not grasping at definitions. And as Dr Millmoss pointed out, there's not a desk editor worth his salt who wouldn't at least caution against the promiscuous use of alleged where rumored or supposed would do.

Nope. Still wrong. Using words like tonality and nuance, and appeals to authority is pretty. But still wrong.

Look, here is a search on

allegedly dating.

Dating not being a criminal offence. Pages and pages of people think other people can allegedly date some one without any sense of wrongdoing being implied. ( True enough there are some cheats in there, but that is the secondary meaning of allegedly).

Allegedly is fine, implies no wrong-doing.
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post #128 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Nope. Still wrong. Using words like tonality and nuance, and appeals to authority is pretty. But still wrong.

Look, here is a search on

allegedly dating.

Dating not being a criminal offence. Pages and pages of people think other people can allegedly date some one without any sense of wrongdoing being implied. ( True enough there are some cheats in there, but that is the secondary meaning of allegedly).

Allegedly is fine, implies no wrong-doing.

I guess if you can't discern the differences among "allegedly dating", "supposedly dating" and "rumored to be dating" we don't have anything to talk about.

The roughly synonymous are exactly equivalent, nuance and tone have no place in any discussion of usage, and language is a blunt instrument that requires little consideration for one's choice of words, since there's nothing to convey but the broad outlines of meaning. Carry on.
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post #129 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I guess if you can't discern the differences among "allegedly dating", "supposedly dating" and "rumored to be dating" we don't have anything to talk about.

For what it's worth, I discern differences between the three words (or phrases) "allegedly", "supposedly", and "rumored to be", and those differences are a matter of strength of conviction (by the source) as opposed to whether the supposed event is one of wrongdoing.

For me, "allegedly" involves an assertion, "supposedly" involves someone just supposing something, or otherwise speculating, and "rumored to be" might as well just be spreading gossip. I have seen AI use these three different words in the past, and I think they generally get them right.

I think that it's fine that you have joined the discussion in defense of the good Dr Millmoss. At the risk of braying like a graceless donkey, I'd like to point out that some of the relentless pursuit of this issue was brought on by Dr Millmoss' arrogant request that I consult a dictionary followed by his disdain towards the results of my having done so. Disregard for my opinion (as well as that of others) dripped from every single post of his since the moment I engaged. I do regret, however, that one additional post about whether he would respond. It was, in fact, uncalled for. And I apologize for that.

Thompson
post #130 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

As I say, good usage is a matter of tonality and nuance, not grasping at definitions. And as Dr Millmoss pointed out, there's not a desk editor worth his salt who wouldn't at least caution against the promiscuous use of alleged where rumored or supposed would do.

I agree with this statement, and the determination of which word is most appropriate is not wrapped up in the specifics of the assertion, i.e. whether there is implied wrongdoing or not. The words differ by the nature of the claim. For instance, if there is a specific source that is asserting something to be true, but the proof has not been made available yet, then the word "alleged" is more appropriate than the word "supposed" and far more appropriate than "rumored". It really is that simple, and I think editors get that.

By the way, your argument is different from the original one from Dr Millmoss. He originally hung his hat on the fact that an element of "wrongdoing" was required in order to use the word "allege", and he challenged us to consult a dictionary. He didn't like the results we found, and your argument is that one shouldn't use one of these words when the others would do. Your argument is valid, and I think that I addressed the appropriate discriminators above. If we were to go back and check, perhaps we would find that AI doesn't pick the right word very often. But it wouldn't be for the reason Dr Millmoss first offered.

Thompson
post #131 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I guess if you can't discern the differences among "allegedly dating", "supposedly dating" and "rumored to be dating" we don't have anything to talk about.

The roughly synonymous are exactly equivalent, nuance and tone have no place in any discussion of usage, and language is a blunt instrument that requires little consideration for one's choice of words, since there's nothing to convey but the broad outlines of meaning. Carry on.


Does allegedly imply wrong doing or not.

Answer: it doesn't.

Why do we know this.

1) The primary dictionary definition says nothing about wrongdoing.
2) The term is used all the time in common English usage, and in headlines, about acts that are legal, and moral. Like dating.

language is indeed a not a blunt instrument that requires little consideration for one's choice of words so lets learn the proper use of allegedly. It implies no wrongdoing.
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