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Ping, Apple's music social network, already plagued with spammers - Page 2

post #41 of 137
Have not registered will not register for Ping. Facebook is enough craziness for me, and I use it infrequently. I think the loss of facebook cooperation deal is gonna make it difficult for apple. Keeping up with privacy, new features, spammers, hackers etc is a full time job, that would have been better done outsourced then in-house. Especially for hardware/software company like Apple.

I cringed a little when Steve announced Ping (so close to Bing too), but perhaps I'm wrong. We'll see how this pans out.
--SHEFFmachine out
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--SHEFFmachine out
Da Bears!
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post #42 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Are spammers posting to public message boards a "new hack"?

Did Apple "do all you can do pro-actively before release"?

Sorry, this went off topic, I'm not suggesting spam is any way a "hack" - the original point back there was that all security should be dealt with before the event (pro-actively) - my point was that this is not possible. Hackers, virus developers and spammers will constantly find new ways to annoy.
post #43 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

Yes they have, they've got google, bing and any other search provider you can list- it's all there in google. Providing alternatives is good for the consumer.

Google need apple as much as the inverse. Google betrayed apple and deserve a big slap.

Anyone has the right to release a new technology, or to provide alternatives to existing products and services. To sit on the board of a company obtaining useful inside information and then go into competition with them is frankly despicable. I don't see Apple entering the search market?

Ok, so you're contradicting yourself in your own post. Why isn't Google allowed to create Android if it allows them to further increase the population to which they serve their ads?

People who work together one day and then break off to start an independent company the next happen all the time in businesses small and large. As similar as Android and iOS are, it's not like Google ran away with a copy of the exact code of iOS and just reskinned it and called it a different product. They still had to do the work for themselves to make Android a successful product.

And for the record, Google's main goal is to serve us ads through their various products (search being their biggest one) and if you haven't noticed, Apple has entered into the ad market with iAds.
\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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post #44 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Now Apple announces Facebook functionality before any deal is cut, while at the same time trying to use a public statment by the CEO to vilify Facebook and make them into some sort of greedy bad guys. That sort of negotiation tactic is nasty and amateurish.

This sort of sleazy tactic is far beneath Apple.

Did you dream this or do you live in a different reality? Apple never announced Facebook functionality related to Ping. They reportedly tried to have integration with Facebook, but couldn't work out a deal. When asked about it, they said the financial terms were unacceptable. Oh well. I don't know what's "nasty or amateurish" about that.
post #45 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by smerch View Post

If this was "totally expected," then why wasn't the issue dealt with proactively?

I take it you've never launched a service like this?

Apple has created an open communication medium which is bound to receive a lot of attention so this is going to be an uphill battle for them. As an experienced web developer I do not envy them the task of tackling this issue. I will guess at one thing, though: they probably did underestimate this. But they've definitely got the resources and motivation to explore solutions.
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The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
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post #46 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

So you're suggesting that Apple released this with no protection at all in place? That seems a little far fetched.

I've got more levels of spam protection on my servers than I can list - I still get spam.

The company that produce a system that 100% eradicates all spam will be very, very rich very quickly.

The protection you're talking about doesn't exist yet, so how could it be put in place?

EDIT No doubt the usual filtering will now be added to - lists of IP addresses, server, domains, key strings etc. etc.

I'm only going on what others are saying. There doesn't seem to be any up-front indication that any form of spam protection is in place. As another post said, allowing users to mark accounts they're getting spam from would greatly help Apple in shutting them down. Maybe it is all in the background, which would mean you're right that spammers have found a way around it.

My point was that something is better than nothing. Like you said, no spam protection is 100% effective. But protection can help weed out the spam attacks that's already in place, forcing spammers to come up with new ways to get around it. In whch case, we come to your point in reacting to brand-new attacks.

It seems that spam would have happened to Ping sooner or later. Spam protection would have only delayed it.
\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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post #47 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by sommer182 View Post

<drama-queen>You have to activate it from within iTunes, it is not automatically on when you upgrate to
v10. Thank God.</drama-queen>

Fixed your post for you
post #48 of 137
What a shame. This could have been a great tool to let musicians get control of their business, and its being ruined by vandals right out of the box.
post #49 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic View Post

Actually, it makes sense that Apple is restricting their "social media" concept to iTunes. They're not trying to be another FaceBooka community for anyone and everyone. It's a "niche" community of music lovers and fans (and perhapshopefullyeventually, book and movie lovers as well). If they open it up to "any browser at any time", they run into all sorts of issues regarding security, browser compatibility, hardware compatibility, etc. If it's kept in the iTunes fold, then there's the assurance that if iTunes works on the user's computer, then Ping will work as well.

Ping is limited to iTunes - but that includes the iPhone and iPod Touch as well.
post #50 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post

Did you dream this or do you live in a different reality? Apple never announced Facebook functionality related to Ping. They reportedly tried to have integration with Facebook, but couldn't work out a deal. When asked about it, they said the financial terms were unacceptable. Oh well. I don't know what's "nasty or amateurish" about that.



Cult of Mac had this to say about how "Apple never announce Facebook functionality":

"On the one hand, we have the above screenshot, taken from Apple’s own Ping web page just this morning.

It clearly says you can connect Ping to Facebook. But. You can’t."



Here's another reporter's take:

"I'd heard you could find your Facebook friends with Ping and thought that would turn up a huge well of smart music fans to follow. But last night Facebook pulled the plug on Apple's interface between Ping and Facebook. Facebook says that Ping could cause "site instability" and "infrastructure" problems. "

Steve now vilifies Facebook publicly. That is not a nice way to do business. You and I can disagree on that, its OK.
post #51 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

This was totally expected and as the service grows, I suspect Apple will adjust accordingly.

Who Cares? I do not plan on turning on PIng!
post #52 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Ok, so you're contradicting yourself in your own post. Why isn't Google allowed to create Android if it allows them to further increase the population to which they serve their ads?

People who work together one day and then break off to start an independent company the next happen all the time in businesses small and large. As similar as Android and iOS are, it's not like Google ran away with a copy of the exact code of iOS and just reskinned it and called it a different product. They still had to do the work for themselves to make Android a successful product.

And for the record, Google's main goal is to serve us ads through their various products (search being their biggest one) and if you haven't noticed, Apple has entered into the ad market with iAds.

why can't google create android? What are you talking about? The point is that schiller did not go away and create a new company - what he did was forge partnership with a fellow IT company, sit on the board and then go away and start emulating their services. Apple did not do the same in return.

We're not talking about android and iOS, we're talking about the phone. That's Apple's flash point, and I entirely agree with them.

I fail to follow your logic.
post #53 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by smerch View Post

I don't need to be an architect to know I'd want to put a lock on the door of a bank.

"Since Ping does not feature spam or URL filtering..."

As "an experienced web developer", you think that might have helped?


Ping does feature spam and URL filtering - I just tried posting a couple of obvious doozies and saw them fail. I'm not sure if you're naive or just critical for the point of it?
post #54 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Steve now vilifies Facebook publicly. That is not a nice way to do business. You and I can disagree on that, its OK.

Nope, he doesn't - Apple have made no public statement on the matter.
post #55 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by smerch View Post

I don't need to be an architect to know I'd want to put a lock on the door of a bank.

"Since Ping does not feature spam or URL filtering..."

As "an experienced web developer", you think that might have helped?


I'm sure Apple wants URLs to be available for sharing, so I'm curious what sort of URL filtering you have in mind? They've got a few traditional options, such as requiring a degree of participation, but that's easy to circumvent. Or they can disable URL sharing for replies, but that's the nuclear option. It isn't as trivial a decision as people make it out to be.

Spam filtering? This is even more the case. Developing efficient spam filtering, aside from being a bandaid on a gaping wound rather than a cure, is even more difficult to implement. If Apple does take that avenue it is a solution they will have to develop through a game of studying a cat-and-mouse exchange. Ideally they'll aim for a solution which attacks the problem at an earlier stage.

The sarcasm is fine given I was sarcastic initially, but the point I want to stress is that it is extremely hard to appreciate the complexity of what this problem can become without an understanding of how extensive this spammer vs. exchange medium is on big platforms, be it a social network, forum, or even email.

So really, buzz words (like 'spam filtering' and 'URL filtering') don't mean much without the technical backing.
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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post #56 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

I'm only going on what others are saying. There doesn't seem to be any up-front indication that any form of spam protection is in place. As another post said, allowing users to mark accounts they're getting spam from would greatly help Apple in shutting them down. Maybe it is all in the background, which would mean you're right that spammers have found a way around it.

My point was that something is better than nothing. Like you said, no spam protection is 100% effective. But protection can help weed out the spam attacks that's already in place, forcing spammers to come up with new ways to get around it. In whch case, we come to your point in reacting to brand-new attacks.

It seems that spam would have happened to Ping sooner or later. Spam protection would have only delayed it.

And my point is you're criticising the unknown as fact. There is spam prevention in place - there is no such thing as spam proofing. Databases of offendors, IP addresses take time, and no matter what is in place it keeps coming. It happens on facebook, it happens on my POP accounts, so why should PING be immune? Odd logic.
post #57 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Ok, so you're contradicting yourself in your own post. Why isn't Google allowed to create Android if it allows them to further increase the population to which they serve their ads?

People who work together one day and then break off to start an independent company the next happen all the time in businesses small and large. As similar as Android and iOS are, it's not like Google ran away with a copy of the exact code of iOS and just reskinned it and called it a different product. They still had to do the work for themselves to make Android a successful product.

And for the record, Google's main goal is to serve us ads through their various products (search being their biggest one) and if you haven't noticed, Apple has entered into the ad market with iAds.

The ethical thing for Schmidt to do would have been to resign from Apple's board as soon as Google started thinking about developing Android.

Nobody's saying Google should not have developed Android - they just shouldn't have sat on Apple's board gathering inside information while developing a competitive product. There was a LOT of information Apple had that should not have been shared with a competitor - Apple's analysis of the mobile market, Apple's plans in future phone development and advertising, etc.

Without Apple's analysis of the market, Google may not have realized it could be so lucrative. Remember, everyone outside of Apple was saying the iPhone would fail. Google might have thought that as well, and delayed or stopped developing Android altogether if they hadn't seen Apple's internal numbers. That would have given Apple probably 2 more years of a head start.

To me, Schmidt's actions border on industrial espionage.
post #58 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

Nope, he doesn't - Apple have made no public statement on the matter.



"the website demanded "onerous terms" from the iTunes maker, Chief Executive Steve Jobs said."

Did he say it in private? Its all over the news, fer chrissakes.
post #59 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post

Developing efficient spam filtering, aside from being a bandaid on a gaping wound rather than a cure, is even more difficult to implement.

Seemingly, you think it is too difficult for Apple to implement.

If they can do cut and paste in only three years, this shouldn't be beyond their abilities.
post #60 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

"the website demanded "onerous terms" from the iTunes maker, Chief Executive Steve Jobs said."

Did he say it in private? Its all over the news, fer chrissakes.

What, exactly, do you think 'onerous' means? Let's translate it to, "They made this process more burdensome* than we were prepared to deal with at this time."

*Correction. See my reply below.
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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post #61 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Seemingly, you think it is too difficult for Apple to implement.

If they can do cut and paste in only three years, this shouldn't be beyond their abilities.

You smell like a troll.

I think it is an incredibly difficult process to implement, but if anyone can do it, it is Apple. They've got the talent, resources, and determination to achieve successes other companies cannot and if they feel Ping is worth that battle, they'll take it up.

As for copy and paste, I'll take a top-of-class solution to something so important a little bit late over a hacked-together frustrating solution kicked out the door just to add a feature on a bullet-point list. Thanks.
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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post #62 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

And my point is you're criticising the unknown as fact. There is spam prevention in place -

From the article you are commenting upon:

"Ping does not feature spam or URL filtering, ".
post #63 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

"the website demanded "onerous terms" from the iTunes maker, Chief Executive Steve Jobs said."

Did he say it in private? Its all over the news, fer chrissakes.

It went from "was reported to have said" to "steve jobs said"

There has been no public statement, it's the media being the media.
post #64 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post

What, exactly, do you think 'onerous' means? Let's translate it to, "They made this process more complicated than we were prepared to deal with at this time."

It is a pejorative term. Get real. Look in a dictionary. Here's some synonyms:

oppressive
troublesome
crushing
excessive
galling
grievous
grinding
irksome
painful
post #65 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

It went from "was reported to have said" to "steve jobs said"

There has been no public statement, it's the media being the media.

I'm just going by what AI said. You might not be so trusting of them, but I haven't seen them get facts wrong very often, except for misstatements.

I believe that Steve Jobs said exactly what AI reported him as saying.
post #66 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

Apple has always had their head in their butt when it comes to security. They have gotten away with this by being a niche market. One day they are going to get bitten so badly it's gonna really hurt.

But this is what you get when you can't partner with existing services and you have such a huge ego you feel you can do everything better yourself. Right Steve?

Thanks for the random illogical bullsh*t. Do you ever have any real idea what you're talking about? It must be fun to just spout nonsense without a care in the world.

I understand though, it's so much harder to actually think about stuff.
post #67 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

From the article you are commenting upon:

"Ping does not feature spam or URL filtering, ".

That is supposition by Sophos, it is not fact. Learn to filter the FUD from actual information - I don't blame you, I blame the media.
post #68 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

I'm just going by what AI said. You might not be so trusting of them, but I haven't seen them get facts wrong very often, except for misstatements.

I believe that Steve Jobs said exactly what AI reported him as saying.

AI are quoting an article, they are not stating anything themselves...
post #69 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post

What, exactly, do you think 'onerous' means? Let's translate it to, "They made this process more complicated than we were prepared to deal with at this time."

"Onerous" means "burdensome" not "complicated."
post #70 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by old-wiz View Post

Just what we need, another opportunity for spammers.
I haven't even upgraded to iTunes 10, but I'm just hoping you can avoid even having Ping.

iTunes 10 is nice. You have to specifically choose to turn on Ping, so no worries there. My finger is on the trigger, I think I'll let Apple sort out them teething problems first. Apple has huge experience moderating the discussion forums and iTunes reviews and ratings. Give Apple a chance.

Or, I'm just an Apple apologist and clearly Apple is doomed..!!
post #71 of 137
Flies like poop
post #72 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

"Onerous" means "burdensome" not "complicated."

I understand that and I may have been overly loose with my translation. From the angle of a software platform I take those statements to relate to burdensome technical implementation (though I suppose that may not have been the case), thus complicated. In retrospect that wouldn't apply if Steve Job's disapproval had nothing to do with technical feasibility (e.g. simple unreasonable demands, such as payment).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

It is a pejorative term. Get real. Look in a dictionary. Here's some synonyms:

oppressive
troublesome
crushing
excessive
galling
grievous
grinding
irksome
painful

I disagree that 'onerous' must be taken as a pejorative term.
Perhaps Steve Jobs was actually being sincere?
Which is to say, using the term as defined.
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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post #73 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post

I take it you've never launched a service like this?

Apple has created an open communication medium which is bound to receive a lot of attention so this is going to be an uphill battle for them. As an experienced web developer I do not envy them the task of tackling this issue. I will guess at one thing, though: they probably did underestimate this. But they've definitely got the resources and motivation to explore solutions.

Apple was probably too optimistic and will implement solutions as needed. This is not blind worship, just common sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

What a shame. This could have been a great tool to let musicians get control of their business, and its being ruined by vandals right out of the box.

Don't worry, Ping is destined to be as big for music and movies as Facebook is. Apple is never perfect. But they strive for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

It is a pejorative term. Get real. Look in a dictionary. Here's some synonyms:

oppressive
troublesome
crushing
excessive
galling
grievous
grinding
irksome
painful

Onerous to me suggests overwhelmingly stifling at worst, pedantic at best. Ah, playing petite perfunctorily prejudices perhaps placating popular parsimonies...
post #74 of 137
So how are spammers able to get into Ping? With their real names, iTunes accounts, and credit card numbers? Or, are those silly constraints for the rest of us?

C'mon Apple. This is stupid.
post #75 of 137
Ping just might be the most useless product that Apple has ever introduced. I tried it out. I will agree that a social network needs "critical mass" before success really comes in. But I see absolutely no purpose to this waste of hard drive space.
post #76 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

That is supposition by Sophos, it is not fact. Learn to filter the FUD from actual information - I don't blame you, I blame the media.

Everything by SOPHOS is in quotes.

The fact I repeated was not a quote.
post #77 of 137
For those who might have missed the ramblings of our two resident misanthropes, I am providing all their postings in this thread so far in one place, for your convenient viewing and troll-feeding.

For those of you ticked off, you know now how some of us feel...... \

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

Apple has always had their head in their butt when it comes to security. They have gotten away with this by being a niche market. One day they are going to get bitten so badly it's gonna really hurt.

But this is what you get when you can't partner with existing services and you have such a huge ego you feel you can do everything better yourself. Right Steve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

This sort of thing seems to be getting more and more common with Apple. They seem to announce their stuff long before any partners have signed up. Newspapers and magazines are another example. We heard all about how every magazine would be available and how Apple was going to change the whole industry, but the reality is VERY different.

Now Apple announces Facebook functionality before any deal is cut, while at the same time trying to use a public statment by the CEO to vilify Facebook and make them into some sort of greedy bad guys. That sort of negotiation tactic is nasty and amateurish.

This sort of sleazy tactic is far beneath Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

But computer software IS dealt with proactively to protect users against hackers. Security is baked-in, from the ground up.

Or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Losing Google as a partner is likely to hurt them badly in the end. Apple needs search. They got nothing now. They can't do it by themselves, given that they have been trying for years and have yet to implement anything reasonable even in the App Store.

Crawling to Microsoft for Bing is pathetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

So you are saying that the lack of browser accessibility is a feature?

Wow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Seemingly, they approached Facebook with an unacceptable offer. Steve already said that Apple was unwilling to pay enough to inspire Facebook to do the deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Recent events suggest otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Are spammers posting to public message boards a "new hack"?

Did Apple "do all you can do pro-actively before release"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Cult of Mac had this to say about how "Apple never announce Facebook functionality":

"On the one hand, we have the above screenshot, taken from Apples own Ping web page just this morning.

It clearly says you can connect Ping to Facebook. But. You cant."



Here's another reporter's take:

"I'd heard you could find your Facebook friends with Ping and thought that would turn up a huge well of smart music fans to follow. But last night Facebook pulled the plug on Apple's interface between Ping and Facebook. Facebook says that Ping could cause "site instability" and "infrastructure" problems. "

Steve now vilifies Facebook publicly. That is not a nice way to do business. You and I can disagree on that, its OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

"the website demanded "onerous terms" from the iTunes maker, Chief Executive Steve Jobs said."

Did he say it in private? Its all over the news, fer chrissakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Seemingly, you think it is too difficult for Apple to implement.

If they can do cut and paste in only three years, this shouldn't be beyond their abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

From the article you are commenting upon:

"Ping does not feature spam or URL filtering, ".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

It is a pejorative term. Get real. Look in a dictionary. Here's some synonyms:

oppressive
troublesome
crushing
excessive
galling
grievous
grinding
irksome
painful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

I'm just going by what AI said. You might not be so trusting of them, but I haven't seen them get facts wrong very often, except for misstatements.

I believe that Steve Jobs said exactly what AI reported him as saying.
post #78 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Apple has huge experience moderating the discussion forums and iTunes reviews and ratings.

If inexperience is not the reason, then what excuse do they have?
post #79 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

But you're making it hard for yourself. Your prices are too stiff.

You just had to slide that in, didn't you?
post #80 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post

I understand that and I may have been overly loose with my translation. From the angle of a software platform I take those statements to relate to burdensome technical implementation (though I suppose that may not have been the case), thus complicated. In retrospect that wouldn't apply if Steve Job's disapproval had nothing to do with technical feasibility (e.g. simple unreasonable demands, such as payment).


I disagree that 'onerous' must be taken as a pejorative term.
Perhaps Steve Jobs was actually being sincere?
Which is to say, using the term as defined.


Nowhere is it defined as "complicated". Sorry.

This one has run its course. Let's just use a dictionary and agree with what the words mean.
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