[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
I would start the thread, but I do not think that many would be interested in me starting another religious thread right now. I anyone disagress with this then I would be more than happy to oblige, or you could do this as well.
Lets just say that he makes a very strong case for his points, and that in light of recent events I am n=more inclined to believe that radical islam is not the peaceful religion that it is made out to be in the media. That is not to say that Muslims are evil people, just like Germans were not evil, but the radical Muslems that practice Islam as it is written in the Koran and the Kadish(?) or in the case of Germans that were Nazis there is an obvious disconnect there.
Thanks for the reply, and I would suggest that we leave that idea of a new thread behind, because of the amount of flame this will raise. Personally, I had a thread removed, for no obvious reasons and not even too many replies.
Regarding Mr. Mordecai and your thoughts above:
It is good that you mentioned that "radical islam" is not a peaceful religion. Let me clarify this point so we would understand where each of us stands on that.
Let me first start by saying that Islam is a monotheistic religion which believes in the GOD (if there are more than one as Mr. Mordecai has claimed) of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, ... and all the way down to Jesus and beyond. Muslims believe in one and only one undisputed writing in Arabic which no one, as many have tried, as of yet have replicated a verse out of, and that book is called the Quran (mind the spelling). Imitation of such writings are impossible, according to my Arabic muslim friends accounts, that all Arabic transcripts are verified are identical down to the vowels in the words. Radicals, Sunnis, Shi-at, and many other sects in Islam differ on the interpretation of the Quran, not the authenticity of it. So if there are peaceful (or not evil as you have called them) muslims, as opposed to not peaceful "radical muslims", that means that each has interpreted the book in their own way, be it peacefully rightful or viciously wrong. If those radicals take words out of context, place, event, situation, and atmosphere at which those words were revealed, why Islam and the Quran should be held accountable?
Regarding what the muslims call "Allah". My understanding is that "Allah" is one of 99 other names which describe GOD's traits, e.g. The most Strong, The most Great, The most Merciful, etc. None of which names is "Satan", or "Devil". You should firmly understand that "radical muslims" practice what they interpret to be true, while "not evil muslims" practice what they feel to be true.
What is the Kaddish by the way?
Mr. Mordecai's case is weak, only the audience's lack of knowledge, and their amazing readiness (which I envy to a certain extent) to absorb all that is said to them, that makes his arguments strong. He is a translator as I understand, how could he possibly translate "men el kuwait le adammam" in one of his journals to mean something related to blood? Ask any American service person who served in the Gulf about the meaning of "Damam" and they should be able to tell you what it means clearly. People like you have a good heart, maybe this is why you trust every single thing he says. Look around the web, there are tons of sites that would feed your curiosity with such information about Islam [however misleading it might be to me].
That is no necessarily true. The muslim holy texts have very strong statements about those who do not follow their religion in this world, not in the afterlife. Some point to Christianity and say, well that is a very intolerant religion that calls for the death of those that don't follow it, but it is quite different with fundamentalist Islam.
I will quote another article I have read recently that sums up what I mean.
It is only one text, muslims don't like the plural notion because they believe it is very consistent piece of text and does not contradict its self as opposed to texts written by different authors.
Quran have mentioned that the unbeliever will be punished, but Quran also mentions that there are those who will be forgiven and that forgiveness can not be challenged because it is granted by GOD.
Regarding the article:
First and foremost, always keep in mind that each side [of the middle eastern conflict] is trying to get your attention and have you on their side of the conflict. If it was not for the GB, and US, Israel would have never declared independence. Now they feel that they are threatened, so they will seek to rally all that they can to stand on their side. Some do it the right way, others [in this case: Israel Daily] do it through propaganda. Each has their audience in sight.
With the above stated and practiced, note that they try to persuade you to be on their side by the way of fear and attacking your believes using muslim believes. Never over look words in any article you read. Just like both sides of the conflict are fighting over few percents of land in a peace deal, you should be fighting over which words are right and which are wrong in place, context, meaning, implication, and future consequences. Now here is the deal, I quote the Bible then I tell you what I understand, and you tell me if my understanding is wrong and a propaganda fed though. Here it is:
"In the same day the Eternal made a covenant with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrate." [Genesis 15:18]
It is well known that the covenant is in Isaac's lineage according to the Bible. Then it would follow that the Bible has granted Isaac and his decedents the Lands Between the Nile and the Euphrate. What do you say about that and do you think that this is what Israel Daily is after?While the Arab-Israeli conflict pits Moslems against Jews, it concerns Christians as well, because ultimately, it is a conflict over revelation the revelation of the Bible and that of the Koran. By opposing the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, the Moslems effectively reject the Divine promises of the Jewish and Christian Bible, and replace them with another, diametrically opposed doctrine the Koran.
Do tell me, I beg you, have you ever read a muslim authenticated translation of the Quran from cover to cover and absorbed what it say and found that it oppose the Bible diametrically? Or have you left that to others to pursue because you trust their opinion. Obviously, it is the latter that you have practiced, since you quote those who quote the Quran rather than quoting the Quran directly, because you are a good hearted person.The Moslem Palestinians have tried to make allies of the powerful Christian Churches, to win international support for their aspirations to statehood. But history shows that the Moslems, when in power, have not been sympathetic at all to Christians. For instance, one of the most popular figures in Arab folklore is Saladin, the Moslem-Arab warrior who defeated the Crusaders in the Holy Land.
Saladin also did kill thousands upon thousands of muslims in Egypt the moment he took over there. Little known fact to even most of the muslims, yet it is documented and well known among the villagers in Egypt who are there actually fleeing from Saladin's atrocities. What do you say to that? Well, do not go so far, Saddam has killed nothing but muslims. Is he to be a good Christian or would you think that he is fulfilling the will of GOD against the disbelievers?The Koran itself warns Moslems, Do not take Jews or Christians as your friends. During the Arab conquests, Jews and Christians alike were massacred, and synagogues and churches destroyed. A Moslem phrase often quoted in this region is: On Saturday we kill the Jews and on Sunday we kill the Christians!
With eloquence of Arabic ( an eloquence only matched by Hebrew, Roman, and Greek languages) taken into account and the transliteration (as opposed to translation) of Do not take Jews or Christians as your friends., I tell you, and I am full of confidence due to the number of arguments I have raised regarding this phrase with the muslims until I got the true answer, it is a false translation. That phrase quoted would better be translated as the following: "Do not consider the Jews and Christians as your guardians
". Guardians here used to denote that who would be leaned on in situations of hardship. That is to say, if you [muslims] are suffering of hardship, then you [muslims] should help each other rather than depending on the Jews and the Christians to help you out.
Quran is too eloquent to be attacked in such a way.
Regarding Jews being massacred, just like the Christians were; why do you think the Jews want their own State other than running from those Christians who massacred them for centuries in Europe?
Regarding the Christians massacres. History is full of massacres and atrocities of fellow human against another fellow human. Almost all massacres are in one way or another justified at the time with false religious believes. Later on, it turns out that religion has nothing to do with it. Which brings me to the issue of christian cults, and christian fed genocide in african Rwanda. Both of us know, believe, affirm, and confident that Christianity is in no way can be associated with such massacres.
That quote about Saturdays and Sundays I am not familiar of and it has nothing to do with Quran [if you remember Mr. Mordecai's newsletter he actually claimed it was in the Quran while here it says that it is a regional quote].
Now if Christians and Jews are to be forced to become muslims, why do you think there are Churchs and Syngoges through out the muslim's countries? (save a couple of course)
If such action were to be implemented and promoted by Muslims, then the Church of Nativity should be down to rubbles long ago, don't you agree? Have you visited Syria? Jordan? Egypt? Iraq? Kuwait? They all have churches, but not all have synagogues.This theology enables us to understand the roots of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and should warn the Christian West about what power lies behind the attempts to divide the Land of Israel. This does not mean that Moslems are evil; but Christians should be aware that they are under a deceiving, evil influence and power that of Islam. Therefore, Islam as a power must be resisted.
It looks like the Christian community have got their thoughts very well influenced by that silly "not the people, but the doctrine" idea. Well, dare the world to force 1,000,000,000 muslims convert or abandon their holy text? You just said that they are not evil! Yet, their holy text is! But they all have the same holy text! Furthermore, they all believe in that same holy text! The holy text represents the religion and not the people, so it follows that interpretation must differ, therefore.
So what do you suggest here Noah? Do you understand the implication of your repeated attack on Islam, which is represented by Quran, which is the indisputable holy text of 1,000,000,000 individuals.
Turning the other cheek does not mean allowing innocents to be slaughtered by zealots. I am not asking for someone to gie me a gun so I can go and kill "dirty Arabs" or something. However, Muslims live in this world and are under the law of this world and should be held accountable just as you and I are accountable. If you have read my other threads you will know that I do not call for me to be the instrument of God's vengence. Not once. But there is nothing wrong with wanting those guilty to pay for what they have done wrong. Nothing at all.
Turning the other cheek does not mean allowing innocents to be slaughtered by zealots, yet Jesus Christ was crucified without showing any resistance. He should be your role model in that particular act.
Asking for a gun to kill "dirty Arabs", granted you are not.
Rallying for the killing of the innocent, however, even by our human made and practiced laws will hold you as accountable. Your support for any side of the conflict, which indisputably has innocents involved on both sides, is enough to hold you accountable dear.
Not only does the hand fight evil. So does the mouth by saying words of truth, and the heart for not supporting but the truth. Please read the above christian individual's related, and practiced massacre. I find google to be an unbiased tool to search references on the topic.
I would just like to close with this sentence: What started this whole discussion between the two of us is the mere fact that you keep insisting on labeling "Islam" as a not peaceful religion and accusing what defines Islam, Quran, are vicious teachings. Have you changed your mind about those claims, or do you insist on supporting them?
None so far in the American government have admitted that this is what they firmly believe, that Quran is the source of all evil. But they will eventually, and that is when hell will break lose, so to speak. "Why hell is breaking lose?" we shall ask, it is because policy advisors, and decision makers did not have the time to verify what is mischievously being relayed to them about Quranic teachings.
PS. I have to clarify that throughout the history of Islam, many massacres took place in the name of Islam, but none of which has anything to do with Islam. e.g. Ottoman Empire practices in eastern Europe.