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Extended iTunes song samples stalled due to licensing issues

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
Apple's plan to announce extended iTunes song samples on Sept. 1 met with late opposition from publishers, according to a new report.

Greg Sandoval of CNET reported Tuesday that a rollout of longer iTunes samples may have been blocked by the National Music Publishers Association. In an earlier report published just days before Apple's Sept. 1 event, Sandoval predicted Apple would bump iTunes song samples from 30 seconds to 60 seconds, but the announcement failed to materialize at the event.

According to Sandoval, Apple's agreements with just the four major record companies to provide longer song samples weren't enough. When both the NMPA's general counsel and chief executive learned of Apple's plan by reading CNET's report, they contacted the Cupertino, Calif., company with their objections.

"We believe that a license is necessary, and conversations must occur before song samples are extended," NMPA general counsel Jay Rosenthal told CNET last Wednesday.

Several publishers have felt that they're not getting their fair share from iTunes, as they believe Apple should pay performance rights for song samples. Apple had countered with the argument that a 30-second sample is promotional, but its push for longer samples has reopened the debate.

Hanna Pantle, a spokeswoman for BMI, which collects royalties for songwriters and publishers, said the organization is currently in "active negotiations" with Apple about the length of song samples.

Music industry insiders say Apple "tried to rush a deal through" without securing agreements from all the necessary parties.

As the "number one music community in the world" with over 160 million users in 23 countries, iTunes certainly has leverage with the labels and publishers. But, it may face stiffer competition this fall as Google readies its own online music store.
post #2 of 27
Music publishers are stupid.
post #3 of 27
They're probably (pointlessly) worried about people ripping it off for ringtones or something like that, I suppose.

What a sad joke of an industry. In a few more years, these guys/gals will be all gone. Finished.
post #4 of 27
Before Apple purchased and subsequently shuddered Lala.com the full length song previews were in use by me almost every day. I bought more music because of it. Even better (for all parties involved) I bought more of the music I knew I would like and keep because it was so easy to listen to the whole album first, making me less gun shy about buying even more music, if you follow.

Bring on the longer samples, music publishers. It's really a no-brainer. 30 second song preview is like a movie trailer--a tiny sampling and what you actually get could be quite different when you see (listen to) the whole thing.
post #5 of 27
It does seem the issuing of "rights" appears to boil down to who you are, not what you want the rights for. It's annoying me that iTunes users are getting punished because of this.
post #6 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by smerch View Post

Really?

Just where are they going?

Do you ever have any knowledge about the topics you're posting on?

Or do you just reflexively post anything that pops into your head?

Well, when there is a change in the technology and an impacted profession refuses to adapt, or isn't needed anymore, it disappear, as did the lamplighters when we shifted from gas to electricity for lightening.
post #7 of 27
This graphic appeared in a NYT article regarding digital music sales (sorry, it's kind of longish). In case it's not clear, it depicts relative revenues across years and formats.

Digital music sales are a tiny, tiny slice of what the music companies were making at their peak. So, yeah, you can see how they'd want to stand in the way of something that might sell more music.

I swear to god, these companies are nakedly suicidal.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by smerch View Post

Really?

Just where are they going?

Do you ever have any knowledge about the topics you're posting on?

Or do you just reflexively post anything that pops into your head?

Really. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia on the recent fate of industry:

"In the 21st century, consumers spent far less money on recorded music than they had in 1990s, in all formats. Total revenues for CDs, vinyl, cassettes and digital downloads in the world dropped 25% from $38.6 billion in 1999 to $27.5 billion in 2008..... Same revenues in the U.S. dropped from a high of $14.6 billion in 1999 to $9 billion in 2008. ...... the downward trend is expected to continue for the foreseeable future —Forrester Research predicts that by 2013, revenues in USA may reach as low as $9.2 billion. This dramatic decline in revenue has caused large-scale layoffs inside the industry, driven retailers (such as Tower Records) out of business and forced record companies, record producers, studios, recording engineers and musicians to seek new business models."

I have no idea where they're going, maybe join the ranks of the unemployed? (Did this post hit home?).
post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidm77 View Post

Music publishers are stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

What a sad joke of an industry. In a few more years, these guys/gals will be all gone. Finished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STecchino View Post

Bring on the longer samples, music publishers. It's really a no-brainer. 30 second song preview is like a movie trailer--a tiny sampling and what you actually get could be quite different when you see (listen to) the whole thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I swear to god, these companies are nakedly suicidal.

What they said.


It is hard to believe that they are anything but a bunch of blowhards trying desperately to turn back the clock. Times have changed and they can't/won't see it...
Progress is a comfortable disease
--e.e.c.
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Progress is a comfortable disease
--e.e.c.
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post #10 of 27
Once Live Nation goes under, the music will be back in the hands of the musicians, money made by touring, showing up at radio stations to play to promote, word of mouth, facebook and even ping. It was an industry that strangled itself to death.

I hope radio returns to support it. I liked it better when I was a punk. small halls, small labels, bands fighting it out for out attention at college radio stations. Great for us, crappy for them.
post #11 of 27
30 seconds, 1 minute, it's still much less than the whole song. It shouldn't affect the recording companies. But for me, and I don't claim I am representative of the typical music consumer, a 30 second snippet is not enough for me to determine if I want to purchase the song. 30 seconds is enough for me to verify that it is the song I want, but I'm buying it because I heard it somewhere else. 1 minute might or might not help with music discovery but it certainly won't hurt the labels. But they are too stoopid to figure that out.

I have never purchased a song based on hearing 30 seconds of it on iTunes, or any other online seller.
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Digital music sales are a tiny, tiny slice of what the music companies were making at their peak.

Call me cynical, but that massive share of CD sales has got to be because they issued almost all music only on complete CDs at the time, with very few CD singles. If you wanted even one lone track, you had to buy the whole CD, which artificially inflated the market. Essentially, they often had $16 songs. Part of the reason for the small digital market is because people can buy songs individually now at sane prices. Another part is undeniably the piracy angle.

In my case, a third reason is that today's music just does nothing for me and I basically own all the songs I like. I have several thousand songs from three centuries, from classical through the 1980s, but the acts nowadays don't seem to have much creativity or talent. Lady Gaga is a warmed-over Madonna who gets attention by acting even more outrageous on and off stage. Hip hop all sounds the same. Rap all sounds like crap.
post #13 of 27
*

Dear Music Industry:

I used to buy hundreds of dollars worth of actual CDs and song downloads every year - _after_ I listened to them at my local Virgin Records store (I bought CDs there about half the time, downloads from iTunes). I'd spend an average of 3 hours a month just browsing music at stores - and this led me to buying. Rarely did I buy a song on the basis of a 30 second clip on iTunes, because it just wasn't enough to gauge if I would want to listen to it more than once.

Now Virgin and Tower have closed, and the only way I get to hear new music is on Pandora (which actually very rarely plays new music) and from a few podcasts, which are not "monetized" in any way. I'm losing touch with new music and getting less and less interested in popular music as a result. Being able to listen to a longer clip, if not the whole song, on line before I buy is maybe the _only_ possible way I would start buying more music. I'm not alone.

Best regards,

A Former Good Customer
post #14 of 27
I walked into a now defunct music store and asked for 50 cent. I got kicked out for panhandling.
post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by smerch View Post

Really?

Just where are they going?

Do you ever have any knowledge about the topics you're posting on?

Or do you just reflexively post anything that pops into your head?

Why would you be so aggressive. It was just a little comment. Would you talk to someone like that face to face.
post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Call me cynical, but that massive share of CD sales has got to be because they issued almost all music only on complete CDs at the time, with very few CD singles. If you wanted even one lone track, you had to buy the whole CD, which artificially inflated the market. Essentially, they often had $16 songs. Part of the reason for the small digital market is because people can buy songs individually now at sane prices. Another part is undeniably the piracy angle.

Are you sure about your statement regarding CD singles, as I have an absolute tonne of them that I have purchased over the years.

And to be truthful, there is a very large digital market for music, CDs are digital and have been available for ages, did you mean digital download market?
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Call me cynical, but that massive share of CD sales has got to be because they issued almost all music only on complete CDs at the time, with very few CD singles. If you wanted even one lone track, you had to buy the whole CD, which artificially inflated the market. Essentially, they often had $16 songs. Part of the reason for the small digital market is because people can buy songs individually now at sane prices. Another part is undeniably the piracy angle.

In my case, a third reason is that today's music just does nothing for me and I basically own all the songs I like. I have several thousand songs from three centuries, from classical through the 1980s, but the acts nowadays don't seem to have much creativity or talent. Lady Gaga is a warmed-over Madonna who gets attention by acting even more outrageous on and off stage. Hip hop all sounds the same. Rap all sounds like crap.

Ah that's known as getting old. My dad and his dad used to say the same thing to me in my youth. Now I find myself repeating it to my kids.
A reputation is not built upon the restful domain of one's comfort zone; it is made out of stalwart exposition of your core beliefs, for all challenges to disprove them as irrelevant hubris.- Berp...
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A reputation is not built upon the restful domain of one's comfort zone; it is made out of stalwart exposition of your core beliefs, for all challenges to disprove them as irrelevant hubris.- Berp...
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post #18 of 27
The publishers just want another pound of flesh. Apple and others would be better bypassing the publishers and signing / allowing artists to publish straight through iTunes directly.
post #19 of 27
Seriously, running a store takes at least a rudimentary customer service ability. Has Google ever demonstrated that ability? When you look at their foray into selling the Nexus One, what is the biggest complaint everybody had? Poor customer service. If anybody is/was going to be an 'iTunes' killer, it was Amazon. So far, not so much. Android on a handset does not a positive experience make, no matter how much cheaper the suits at EMI et al sell their bits and bytes. Until Google does it, can we stop with the silly 'iTunes' killer stuff, please? I'm worried about Lady Gaga's future.
post #20 of 27
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
What a sad joke of an industry. In a few more years, these guys/gals will be all gone. Finished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smerch View Post

Really?

Just where are they going?

Do you ever have any knowledge about the topics you're posting on?

Or do you just reflexively post anything that pops into your head?


It wouldn't surprise me at all if they became extinct, what with their unprogressive attitudes - always 2 or 3 steps behind the requirements of their market and users, all of whom they seem to regard as thieves and opportunists.

Remember that Apple almost single-handedly had to drag the Record Labels and Movie Industry "kicking and screaming" into embracing digital downloads, and in return they started to favour Amazon and other online shops with DRM-free downloads and longer samples, all in an effort to play the "Kingmaker" role and artificially game the market to their advantage.

One of these bonehead moves will be a step too far, you'll see...
post #21 of 27
Video killed the Radio star (i think thats how it went)

Radio > LP > Tape > CD > MP3 (and other that i've missed in the chain)


main thing is Bit Torrent has got in there first between the change over from CD > MP3 and has hurt the process quite a lot, and i feel it will never have a strong hold as it should of had if the industry had some Apple policies and adopt change!
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtESilburner View Post

Seriously, running a store takes at least a rudimentary customer service ability. Has Google ever demonstrated that ability? When you look at their foray into selling the Nexus One, what is the biggest complaint everybody had? Poor customer service. If anybody is/was going to be an 'iTunes' killer, it was Amazon. So far, not so much. Android on a handset does not a positive experience make, no matter how much cheaper the suits at EMI et al sell their bits and bytes. Until Google does it, can we stop with the silly 'iTunes' killer stuff, please? I'm worried about Lady Gaga's future.

I can't say that I know of very many people that are calling for a new music store, other then the occasional anything is better then Apple types. Yes I know that is purely antidotal.

I don't think Apple "fears" a Googly music store, rather I think that the the various parties in the music industry "hope" that a viable competitor emerges. Then they can negotiate with Apple from a stronger position. If a large portion of digital music downloads continues to be linked to the iTunes store then the record execs are prevented from abusing us the customers. Obviously, this situation is deplorable to record executives and hence the reason they will make favorable deals with anyone and everyone but Apple.

You make a great point abut Amazon. I wonder why their music store hasn't taken off? In the past the record labels have given Amazon special treatment and yet...meh. So far, I have not been tempted to buy from Amazon over iTunes.

Perhaps technology pundits make a big deal out of things like the rumored Google store because posting stories like these drive page views? I know I can't seem to resist reading stories about the next great itunes,ipod,etc challenger. It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Zune, anyone?

In regards to Lady Gaga, my wife and I are still debating wether or not she has a poker.
Either way I think she will be just fine.
Crying? No, I am not crying. I am sweating through my eyes.
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post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by luinil View Post

Well, when there is a change in the technology and an impacted profession refuses to adapt, or isn't needed anymore, it disappear, as did the lamplighters when we shifted from gas to electricity for lightening.

If they thought they would make more money, they'd do it. But they make more money with the status quo. When that equation changes, they will change distribution methods.

The lamplighter analogy doesn't work at all. When light distribution switched to electricity, the economics to do so were already in place. The lamplighters were just re-tasked.
post #24 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post

Originally Posted by anantksundaram
What a sad joke of an industry. In a few more years, these guys/gals will be all gone. Finished.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if they became extinct, what with their unprogressive attitudes - always 2 or 3 steps behind the requirements of their market and users, all of whom they seem to regard as thieves and opportunists.

Remember that Apple almost single-handedly had to drag the Record Labels and Movie Industry "kicking and screaming" into embracing digital downloads, and in return they started to favour Amazon and other online shops with DRM-free downloads and longer samples, all in an effort to play the "Kingmaker" role and artificially game the market to their advantage.

One of these bonehead moves will be a step too far, you'll see...

If they all go there will only be independent music and movies. Or do you think Apple would bankroll everything?

The impact would be far greater than contents of your iPod and the price you pay (which would increase). Do you understand the importance of these industries (Hollywood?) in the USA, both economically and in terms of projection of influence around the world? Did they need a bail-out in the recent economic troubles?

If you like you can opt-out of society, only buy independently produced and distributed music and movies. Oh but you'll have to leave your ipod behind. And your money. Enjoy your life where everything is free.

You need to think this through.
post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Music industry insiders say Apple "tried to rush a deal through" without securing agreements from all the necessary parties.


What a friggin surprise...

Does Apple shit all over everybody it is negotiations with? Or just ignore parties in interest figuring that some little company's lawsuit will be a cheaper way for Apple to license what they need?

That is pretty evil in my book.
post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by hapalibashi View Post

If they thought they would make more money, they'd do it. But they make more money with the status quo. When that equation changes, they will change distribution methods.

I guess you missed the news about plummeting sales, profits, and employment that has followed every one of their attempts to maintain 'status quo.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by hapalibashi View Post

You need to think this through.

Actually, perhaps you do.
post #27 of 27
I felt the same for the tech bloggers community it seems that everything goog does is a threat to Apple. I wonder where did they get the message from maybe from where the sun doesn't shine.

The other thing which I like to see the sales figure for android phones - I heard about activations and activations also means hand me down of me too iPhones (android) - say I give away an android and it was activated by another party so it is counted as an activation.
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