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Nokia CEO to step down as company still struggles to combat iPhone - Page 5

post #161 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Which claim did I make which is false. Please explain?

Do you I have tell you for a third time?

This is what you said, and I have correctly you just as many times as I have repeated you...

Quote:
It's the choices of consumers that now drives the market. Not the choices forced on consumers by carriers.

More precisely...
Pre iPhone, select a carrier, then select a device offered.
Post iPhone, select device, then pick carrier.

As I have explained before, prior to the iPhone a consumer could select a device, and select a network, this ability was not a new concept that Apple brought to the table.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Here's my argument - in short "facty" sentences so that you can understand it without getting all confused again.

What's what the insults, I'm not the one with the confusion issue, I think you will find that is you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

1) iPhone was released a little over three years ago by a company with zero experience of handset manufacture or design.

Yes Apple the company didn't have experience, but Apple hired a lot of people that did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

3) iPhone triggered a sea change in the way consumers behaved, triggering subscribers to switch networks in order to get the device.

Like I said, this happened prior to the iPhone, it isn't a new concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

11) They hire a manager. (not a product guy)


The fact that Nokia does more than just make handsets seems to be lost on you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Hint . if you sound out the words - you might do better at understanding their meaning.

And what are you referring to. If I have made a mistake with a word or a phrase, can you please reference them, otherwise it just appears to be some whinging on your part.
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post #162 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:55am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology...medium=twitter

C.
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post #163 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Having two competing OS technologies is two more than most cellphone companies. And one more than the others. Nokia are clearly going to have to dump one of them. They can't do this without upsetting some people.

Why? Nokia is not Apple, they are selling more than one model of phone and to more than just one set of consumers. Yes, I know you want to kill the majority of Nokia's phones, and you want them to only sell highly profitable phones to rich people. But since they sell phones to everyone, they need different solutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Here's what Jean-Louis Gassee thinks:

Now wasn't he one of the Scully men at Apple? And didn't he start that company that developed that wonderful OS, only to have it fail dramitically? Oh yes, that's him, he sounds like a great guy to take advice from...[/QUOTE]
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post #164 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

As I have explained before, prior to the iPhone a consumer could select a device, and select a network, this ability was not a new concept that Apple brought to the table.

Customers have always been *able* to do this. But largely speaking they did not actually do it.
Can you imagine a customer turning up at a Vodafone shop saying: "I would like to move my subscription please. So that I can get my hands on the B52487-B, My current network only supplies the B52487-A."

With iPhone we saw for the first time a mass migration of consumers. I am describing a dramatic change in consumer behaviour, not an innovation by Apple.

C.
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post #165 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Customers have always been *able* to do this. But largely speaking they did not actually do it.

So why make the claim that Apple introduced this, they didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Can you imagine a customer turning up at a Vodafone shop saying: "I would like to move my subscription please. So that I can get my hands on the B52487-B, My current network only supplies the B52487-A."

No, I couldn't image them doing that, as that isn't how I have changed networks in the past. And in the past if I wanted a particular phone, I just purchased that phone and put my SIM in it. And why put the stupid codes in your message? it decreases the validity of your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

With iPhone we saw for the first time a mass migration of consumers. I am describing a dramatic change in consumer behaviour, not an innovation by Apple.

No, the way you were descibing it was this was an Apple innovation, hence my concern.
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post #166 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Why? Nokia is not Apple, they are selling more than one model of phone and to more than just one set of consumers.

I think it's crystal clear why.

As Gassee says developing and maintaining an OS is difficult and expensive. Squandering effort to develop two rival products is incredibly wasteful.

At the simplest possible level, I think someone might ask. Why not just make one good one, rather than two less good ones?

C.
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post #167 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

At the simplest possible level, I think someone might ask. Why not just make one good one, rather than two less good ones?

Yes you could say that, but you also have to look at the target for the OS
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post #168 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

No, the way you were descibing it was this was an Apple innovation, hence my concern.

I would respectfully suggest you read what I actually wrote, rather than what you think I wrote.

Post 87
Post 101

C.
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post #169 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Yes you could say that, but you also have to look at the target for the OS

Why should an OS have a target? The idea is to create a single platform capable of supporting all applications. If the OS is *not* capable of delivering that functionality, then dump it.

I'd agree that a supercomputer needs a slightly different OS than a cellphone.
But developing two different cellphone operating systems within the same company is absurd.

I once worked for a game developer that developed two rival graphic engines. It went bust.

C.
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post #170 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I would respectfully suggest you read what I actually wrote, rather than what you think I wrote.

Post 87
Post 101

C.

It was 101 I replied to. And I stand by what I have said, what you have written, and the way you have written it described the way it has always worked, it is not a new concept that came about with Apple.

Maybe you should go back and re-read what you wrote, as I don't think you understand what you wrote.
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post #171 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Why should an OS have a target?

What is the point of writing an OS, if you have no intention of deploying it on anything?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I'd agree that a supercomputer needs a slightly different OS than a cellphone.
But developing two different cellphone operating systems within the same company is absurd.

yes you are right, but I can't see them getting rid of S40 for a while yet.

Nokia doesn't class Meego as a "cell phone" OS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I once worked for a game developer that developed two rival graphic engines. It went bust.

Maybe you aren't the best person to give advice then?
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post #172 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

It was 101 I replied to. And I stand by what I have said, what you have written, and the way you have written it described the way it has always worked, it is not a new concept that came about with Apple.

Maybe you should go back and re-read what you wrote, as I don't think you understand what you wrote.

I think the posts are clear.

Quote:
With iPhone, the consumer selected the device, and picked whichever carrier that went with it. Even if that meant moving carrier.

Quote:
It's the choices of consumers that now drives the market. Not the choices forced on consumers by carriers.

I am describing a change in consumer behaviour - triggered by the iPhone. Not some marketing innovation by Apple. Apple's sole innovation was making a better device.

C.
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post #173 of 204
9/13/10 at 4:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Nokia doesn't class Meego as a "cell phone" OS

Quite!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Maybe you aren't the best person to give advice then?

My advice to Nokia would be "Compete with rivals. Stop competing with yourself".
But don't worry.
They aren't going to listen.

C.
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post #174 of 204
9/13/10 at 4:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I think the posts are clear.

You are welcome to your thoughts, but in this case you are wrong.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I am describing a change in consumer behaviour - triggered by the iPhone. Not some marketing innovation by Apple. Apple's sole innovation was making a better device.

Again, this isn't a change in consumer behaviour if consumers were already doing this. Maybe you weren't doing it, but others were.
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post #175 of 204
9/13/10 at 4:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

They aren't going to listen.

Well I could understand why they wouldn't.
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post #176 of 204
9/13/10 at 4:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Well I could understand why they wouldn't.

Self competition certainly seems to be part-and-parcel of the Nokia corporate ethos.

C.
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post #177 of 204
9/13/10 at 4:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Again, this isn't a change

When something goes from "not very much" to "an awful lot", it is often described as a "change".

C.
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post #178 of 204
9/13/10 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Which claim did I make which is false. Please explain?


You snipped it. Here it is:

"Let's see, you made a claim regarding Nokia not making any more Symbian based N series devices. Where is your proof of this claim? I posted something that proves you claim was wrong, but your hatred means you will ignore this. Says alot about you."
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post #179 of 204
9/13/10 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

With iPhone we saw for the first time a mass migration of consumers. I am describing a dramatic change in consumer behaviour,
C.

Never once have you posted any support for this contention.
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post #180 of 204
9/13/10 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

You snipped it. Here it is:

"Let's see, you made a claim regarding Nokia not making any more Symbian based N series devices. Where is your proof of this claim? I posted something that proves you claim was wrong, but your hatred means you will ignore this. Says alot about you."

The dropping of Symbian on future N-Series devices was widely reported.

http://www.nokiaphoneblog.com/2010/0...eries-devices/

Sometime later Anssi Vanjoki said there "may be" a Symbian 4 device called N-series. Something I took to be a political statement in case of a backlash.

Today he's left the job.

What is it with all this LIES and HATE - nonsense with you guys?

C.
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post #181 of 204
9/13/10 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

When something goes from "not very much" to "an awful lot", it is often described as a "change".

C.

Lets see some stats.
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post #182 of 204
9/13/10 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Never once have you posted any support for this contention.

Never once. Apart from post 127


C.
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post #183 of 204
9/13/10 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

You snipped it. Here it is:

"Let's see, you made a claim regarding Nokia not making any more Symbian based N series devices. Where is your proof of this claim? I posted something that proves you claim was wrong, but your hatred means you will ignore this. Says alot about you."

Nokia has made that very confusing. See what you can make of this remark, and I'll tell you what the interpretation is thought to be.

Quote:
Symbian is the chosen platform for us for smart phones, said Kai Oistamo, Nokias executive vice president for device, MeeGo is about the next wave, where wireless devices will go next.

It's believed that it means that currently, Nokia will be making Symbian smartphones, but in the future, they will move them, and any other devices they might make, to MeeGo.
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post #184 of 204
9/13/10 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Nokia has made that very confusing. See what you can make of this remark, and I'll tell you what the interpretation is thought to be.



It's believed that it means that currently, Nokia will be making Symbian smartphones, but in the future, they will move them, and any other devices they might make, to MeeGo.


I think he's talking about a post-smartphone world, anticipating huge marketing emphasis on other form factors, which will use MeeGo.

Just my guess.
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post #185 of 204
9/13/10 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

I think he's talking about a post-smartphone world, anticipating huge marketing emphasis on other form factors, which will use MeeGo.

Post smartphone!
COOL!
I wonder what that will bring?

Perhaps something cool like tablets?

Or perhaps little phone-sized tablets that make phone calls?

Double Rainbow all the way!

C.
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post #186 of 204
9/13/10 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

I think he's talking about a post-smartphone world, anticipating huge marketing emphasis on other form factors, which will use MeeGo.

Just my guess.

I'm not so sure about that. What IS a post smartphone world? People will still need a small phone/computer device to take with them at almost all times. I guess we could call it something else, but it won't be.

I believe that over time, Nokia will be abandoning Symbian. Symbian 3 has already been called "creaky" among other things not positive. There's only so much you can do to an OS that was never designed to do that.

People have to separate Symbian from Nokia. I'm sure that inside Nokia they're aware of this problem. That's why MeeGo, after Meamo. It's like Apple buying Next when Copeland failed. If a company doesn't understand when what they're relying on isn't going to work in the future, they're finished.
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post #187 of 204
9/13/10 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I believe that over time, Nokia will be abandoning Symbian. Symbian 3 has already been called "creaky" among other things not positive. There's only so much you can do to an OS that was never designed to do that.

I am certain the abandonment of Symbian has been in Nokia's plans for a few years. But there are two problems.

1) They can't do it without upsetting a lot of people.
2) The alternative isn't ready for prime-time yet.

So they are stuck in the middle, forced to work on two overlapping technologies. One old and clunky, the other modern but only half-finished.

Apple found themselves in a similar position.

I think the open-sourcing of Symbian was the first step in the jettisoning of it. Perhaps they thought other manufacturers would step-in and contribute to the upkeep of the ageing OS. But it was an uninviting prospect. Like inviting a neighbor to fix your toilet.

Perhaps a new management team, less concerned with politics, will be a bit more brutal.

C.
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post #188 of 204
9/13/10 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

What is it with all this LIES and HATE - nonsense with you guys?

You started it, we just followed your lead
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post #189 of 204
9/13/10 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

When something goes from "not very much" to "an awful lot", it is often described as a "change".

C.

yes it is. But that still doesn't change the fact that the behaviour you described in the message I referred to is still the same as it has always been. If you meant something else, you should have said it, stop whinging at your mistake, man up and accept it.
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post #190 of 204
9/13/10 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You started it, we just followed your lead

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to point out where I accused anyone of lying.
Or accused anyone of being blinded by hatred.

Or perhaps merely holding a different opinion from you is justification enough?

C.
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post #191 of 204
9/13/10 at 1:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

[/SIZE]I wonder what that will bring?

Your extreme hatred is coming out again, once again it shows how you can't be objective
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post #192 of 204
9/13/10 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

yes it is. But that still doesn't change the fact that the behaviour you described in the message I referred to is still the same as it has always been. If you meant something else, you should have said it, stop whinging at your mistake, man up and accept it.

Oh dear. If you can cite a prior instance where customers have migrated networks to get their hands on a phone in huge numbers - please do so.

I described a sea-change in customer behaviour (as part of a much larger argument) backed it up with evidence. And am now accused of lying and hatred. This is pretty tiresome.

C.
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post #193 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to point out where I accused anyone of lying.

Do you have an issue with reading. You have been the one lying constanting in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Or accused anyone of being blinded by hatred.

Again, this wasn't said, you are the one showing extreme hatred, if I followed everyone elses statements I would call you can extreme Apple fanboy, you can't be objective,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Or perhaps merely holding a different opinion from you is justification enough?

Nothing wrong with a different opinion, your issue is you can't handle anyone elses.
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post #194 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I am certain the abandonment of Symbian has been in Nokia's plans for a few years. But there are two problems.

1) They can't do it without upsetting a lot of people.
2) The alternative isn't ready for prime-time yet.

So they are stuck in the middle, forced to work on two overlapping technologies. One old and clunky, the other modern but only half-finished.

Apple found themselves in a similar position.

I think the open-sourcing of Symbian was the first step in the jettisoning of it. Perhaps they thought other manufacturers would step-in and contribute to the upkeep of the ageing OS. But it was an uninviting prospect. Like inviting a neighbor to fix your toilet.

Perhaps a new management team, less concerned with politics, will be a bit more brutal.

C.

They were hoping that other companies would hop onto the bandwagon. The only other company I know that has a Symbian phone is Sony/Erricson. Instead the rest hopped onto the Android hayride because it just a much better OS, though still rough.
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post #195 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You started it, we just followed your lead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to point out where I accused anyone of lying.
Or accused anyone of being blinded by hatred.

Or perhaps merely holding a different opinion from you is justification enough?

C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Your extreme hatred is coming out again, once again it shows how you can't be objective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Oh dear. If you can cite a prior instance where customers have migrated networks to get their hands on a phone in huge numbers - please do so.

I described a sea-change in customer behaviour (as part of a much larger argument) backed it up with evidence. And am now accused of lying and hatred. This is pretty tiresome.

C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Do you have an issue with reading. You have been the one lying constanting in this thread.



Again, this wasn't said, you are the one showing extreme hatred, if I followed everyone elses statements I would call you can extreme Apple fanboy, you can't be objective,




Nothing wrong with a different opinion, your issue is you can't handle anyone elses.

Look guys, I want you ALL to stop this now. It's past the silly point, and is rising to the delete point. I don't care who started it, so don't bother.
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post #196 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They were hoping that other companies would hop onto the bandwagon. The only other company I know that has a Symbian phone is Sony/Erricson. Instead the rest hopped onto the Android hayride because it just a much better OS, though still rough.

I agree.

Android makes it very difficult to give away a worse OS.

Android also makes it very difficult to *sell* a worse OS. So unless Windows Phone 7 is really amazing, I can't see it finding much traction.

C.
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post #197 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I agree.

Android makes it very difficult to give away a worse OS.

Android also makes it very difficult to *sell* a worse OS. So unless Windows Phone 7 is really amazing, I can't see it finding much traction.

C.

MS will have its supporters. Companies that made Win Mobile phones will be making WP7 phones, just not as many models. That alone might limit sales.
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post #198 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

MS will have its supporters. Companies that made Win Mobile phones will be making WP7 phones, just not as many models. That alone might limit sales.

MS originally announced seven manufacturers.

It's apparently down to 3 or 4 now. HTC, Samsung, and LG are in.
The story is that Dell will be launching models too, but not in time for launch.

C.
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post #199 of 204
9/13/10 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

MS originally announced seven manufacturers.

It's apparently down to 3 or 4 now. HTC, Samsung, and LG are in.
The story is that Dell will be launching models too, but not in time for launch.

C.

I believe it's still more than four.
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post #200 of 204
9/13/10 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They were hoping that other companies would hop onto the bandwagon. The only other company I know that has a Symbian phone is Sony/Erricson. Instead the rest hopped onto the Android hayride because it just a much better OS, though still rough.

What about the Japanese companies that make Symbian phones for their market?
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