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Nokia smartphone chief to depart as executive shakeup continues - Page 2

post #41 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Not going to happen with Microsoft's current licensing scheme. Nokia is selling around 100 million smartphones a year and that number is increasing at 40%+ YoY. At $15 per license, using Windows Phone 7 would cost Nokia at least $1.5 billion a year.

I'd wager that $1.5 billion is significantly above what Symbian and MeeGo cost to produce.

Huh?! The total global sales of smartphones is in the range of 50 million currently.

Where do you get your estimate of 100 million? I'd wager that's wide off the mark.
post #42 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You claimed that you have owned businesses before, do you really think a corporation would sack a exec and leave them working in their position? No they wouldn't.

Let's use an example, is Papermaster serving out his term at Apple?

Companies don't always "sack" an exec. They come to agreements. If he announced he was leaving, it's doubtful they would keep him for another six months either. Agreements at this level are complex. Unless he's done something dreadful, they could very well have employment agreements with him for six months. You are too simplistic in your thinking here.
post #43 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

What's the source for that? The general consensus is that the fee is $15. It was certainly $15 for Windows Mobile 6.5.

They're saying there that MS WANTS $15 for WP7, but that's not what the average licensing price for Win Mobile was. It was much less, though the highest priced phone may have risen to that level. Perhaps they think WP7 is worth more if they're asking a flat $15.
post #44 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Huh?! The total global sales of smartphones is in the range of 50 million currently.

Where do you get your estimate of 100 million? I'd wager that's wide off the mark.

OK. I'd lose my own wager: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...hits_259m.html


Oh well....
post #45 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Huh?! The total global sales of smartphones is in the range of 50 million currently.

Where do you get your estimate of 100 million? I'd wager that's wide off the mark.

Well considering Nokia sold 24 million, and the whole market was 61.7 million for Q2 2010, I don't think his number is that far off Nokia doing 100 million for a year.
post #46 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You are too simplistic in your thinking here.

No I'm not. You guys are over thinking this situation. The new guy hasn't even started and already this site has him sacking everyone.
post #47 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

In many cases employees are asked to resign or hinted that if they don't resign they will be fired. The majority choose to resign. Given the timing and the CEO firing I would say he was asked to resign.

That was my guess.
post #48 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Huh?! The total global sales of smartphones is in the range of 50 million currently.

Where do you get your estimate of 100 million? I'd wager that's wide off the mark.

100 million is actually very low. For this year it is going to be more than double that amount.

According to gartner in 2008 139.3 million smartphones were sold.

The first quarter of this year businessweek reported that 54.5 million smartphones were sold. The numbers for the last two quarters are going to be much larger because of the holiday shopping season and plus would include sales of the latest iPhone, motorola droid and latest blackberry.

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=910112

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-update1-.html
post #49 of 85
They may still be the volume leader worldwide for 'phones' but what they are trying to sell on the high end IS JUNK! They've tried everything they know to make Symbian a player - they failed. Is what they are about to try on the N8 rational?? Who knows but is hiring a microshaft guy to be ceo is a guaranteed winner for Apple.

It will probably take Nokia at least two years to get back to 'even'....
post #50 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Prediction, all the position will be filled with people who are somehow related to Microsoft and then in the next 12 to 18 months you will see all their smart phones having Microsoft Mobile 7 on them.

Not going to happen with Microsoft's current licensing scheme. Nokia is selling around 100 million smartphones a year and that number is increasing at 40%+ YoY. At $15 per license, using Windows Phone 7 would cost Nokia at least $1.5 billion a year.

I'd wager that $1.5 billion is significantly above what Symbian and MeeGo cost to produce.

Penny wise, pound foolish. The mobile age is all about smartphone apps. Microsoft is spending tens of millions of dollars to encourage developers to develop apps for its platform. To my knowledge, no such effort is being made with Symbian and Meego, and neither platform is known for their app system, despite the amount of time each platform has had to gain such a reputation. Also, as Nokia's profits are dropping, they're developing two mobile OSes. A split personality in such a competitive climate is troubling.

I'm sure that Microsoft would be willing to offer letting Nokia assist them in WinPhone7 development. After all, Nokia has experience in mobile OS development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppDev View Post

Yes that or they will switch to Android and become the largest Android distributor. Reduce OS development costs. Avoid OS licensing costs. Android's market share would skyrocket. Google would get a nice boost in profits. Schmidt might get more arrogant lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post

@appdev
<you will see all their smart phones having Microsoft Mobile 7 on them.>

and then oracle will charge out of the woods and give google and android a kneecapping.

I don't see Nokia embracing Android for that reason. Nokia has long been afraid to put OGG support on their phones, because they don't want to risk getting a patent infringement lawsuit. No lawsuits have even been files on the OGG front. There is a tangible lawsuit with Oracle and Google.

On top of this, WP7 has tangibly better enterprise support than Android. Businesses trust Nokia and Microsoft separately, so why wouldn't they trust them together?

I hadn't thought of the idea of Microsoft wooing Nokia to WP7. They should try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I was at a mobile developer conf recently. The rumor there was that Microsoft had actually paid some manufacturers to take Windows Mobile.

It was just scurrilous gossip, but I thought it was quite good scurrilous gossip.

There's precedent in business. In the first few years of Fox News Channel's existence, Rupert Murdoch paid cable companies to carry it (needless to say, he doesn't now). Radio syndicators sometimes offer the first year of a radio show for free.
post #51 of 85
post #52 of 85
post #53 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwinski View Post

They may still be the volume leader worldwide for 'phones' but what they are trying to sell on the high end IS JUNK! They've tried everything they know to make Symbian a player - they failed.

Every year, since forever, Nolia sells more smartphones than the all the iPhones and all the Android phones combined.

Just a fact. Make of it what you will.
post #54 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

This is genuinely positive development for Nokia.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/14/nokia-hires-peter-skillman-former-palm-design-vp-as-meego-user/

C.

I don't know, the design of the Pre was pretty much a failure. Cracked screens. Light around the edges. Poor sliding mech for the keyboard. sharp edge around the keyboard, and the top keys were too close to the body of the phone. Poor battery life.

Did I miss anything? It's all I can remember.
post #55 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Every year, since forever, Nolia sells more smartphones than the all the iPhones and all the Android phones combined.

Just a fact. Make of it what you will.

It's not a fact. In fact, it's wrong.
post #56 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Every year, since forever, Nolia sells more smartphones than the all the iPhones and all the Android phones combined.

Just a fact. Make of it what you will.

What you say undisputed.

The real issue is that despite these astronomical unit sales, Nokia are barely breaking a profit. And the prospect of them going into loss seems very real.

This is at a time when their sales continue to grow.

The combination of massive sales alongside meagre profits means that something is seriously wrong. This is why Nokia' management have been so widely criticised.

C.
post #57 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's not a fact. In fact, it's wrong.

I think that depends on the definition of smartphone.

C.
post #58 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't know, the design of the Pre was pretty much a failure. Cracked screens. Light around the edges. Poor sliding mech for the keyboard. sharp edge around the keyboard, and the top keys were too close to the body of the phone. Poor battery life.

Did I miss anything? It's all I can remember.

I have seen both good and bad Palm Hardware.

But I think there was some real attention to detail in Palm's user experience (in their software). They worked hard to minimize clicks and organize things around the user. I always get the impression that Nokia menus were done by the engineers.

C.
post #59 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

What you say undisputed.

The real issue is that despite these astronomical unit sales, Nokia are barely breaking a profit. And the prospect of them going into loss seems very real.

This is at a time when their sales continue to grow.

The combination of massive sales alongside meagre profits means that something is seriously wrong. This is why Nokia' management have been so widely criticised.

C.

The only meaningful numbers are that of smartphones, and there, both iOS and Android phones together, are outselling Nokia's phones,

I think that Nokia, in its announcement, made simple arithmetic errors.

They must have added wrongly. Android phone activations are 200,000 a day. iOS activations are 230,000 a day. Out of those, estimates are that about 150,000 at least, are iPhones. So let's use that. Nokia states 260,000 a day.

So Nokia must have added those two numbers together like this:

200,000 - 150,000 = 50,000.

"Hey, we sell more smartphones a day than Android and iOS phones together! Let's announce that!"
post #60 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I have seen both good and bad Palm Hardware.

But I think there was some real attention to detail in Palm's user experience (in their software). They worked hard to minimize clicks and organize things around the user. I always get the impression that Nokia menus were done by the engineers.

C.

They were talking about the Pre, specifically.

I still have my old Palm Treo 700p. It was a solid phone, though as all pre iPhones, with a plastic screen that scratches VERY easily, and needs a protector. and I really mean NEED.

But palm has a rep of having flimsy phones, and I know a lot of people who had problems with theirs, and the early PDa's before that, as I did.
post #61 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The only meaningful numbers are that of smartphones, and there, both iOS and Android phones are outselling Nokia's phones,

I think that Nokia, in its announcement, made simple arithmetic errors.

I get the impression that Nokia like to count its email capable feature phones as smart phones when it suits them.

I'd certainly like to see how they arrived at those numbers.

C.
post #62 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They were talking about the Pre, specifically.

I still have my old Palm Treo 700p. It was a solid phone, though as all pre iPhones, with a plastic screen that scratches VERY easily, and needs a protector. and I really mean NEED.

But palm has a rep of having flimsy phones, and I know a lot of people who had problems with theirs, and the early PDa's before that, as I did.

I never owned a Pre. I liked the smooth soap-bar shape. But it was compromised by the meat-slicer keyboard. I can see it being scratched very easily.

Did I read this right, they are putting him in charge of MeeGo user interface?

C.
post #63 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I get the impression that Nokia like to count its email capable feature phones as smart phones when it suits them.

I'd certainly like to see how they arrived at those numbers.

C.

Even if the numbers about their own phones are correct, 260,000 doesn't beat 350,000. And the numbers are going in opposite directions. Nokia down, and Android and iOS up.

They also said that the new N8 would sell 50,000,000 during its lifetime, which raised a few eyebrows.
post #64 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I never owned a Pre. I liked the smooth soap-bar shape. But it was compromised by the meat-slicer keyboard. I can see it being scratched very easily.

Did I read this right, they are putting him in charge of MeeGo user interface?

C.

It's kind of weird:

Quote:
Peter is looking after the user experience design of MeeGo and services

This guy, according to his work career, did hardware. Now he's going to be in charge, of what exactly? Not what he knows. When a company uses ambiguous terms like "experience" It usually means that he doesn't have a real post. It's like "visionary". What does that mean exactly? They could have said that he would be in charge of the GUI design. But they didn't. But what do they mean by services? The failed app store? Software? Selling the thing? I have no idea, and I get the feeling that they don't either. At least, not yet.

Sometimes companies will hire guys like this when they are in trouble, hoping that they can snag them before someone else does, without having a solid plan in mind for him. I've seen it before. If they don't firm up something quickly that he can really do, he'll just leave in a year or so. We've seen that too. Meanwhile, he's got a job, about which he's happy.
post #65 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They must have added wrongly. Android phone activations are 200,000 a day. iOS activations are 230,000 a day. Out of those, estimates are that about 150,000 at least, are iPhones. So let's use that. Nokia states 260,000 a day.

If this is an error. It's a monumental error.

And I looked at the numbers. Nokia's total handset sale is about a million units per day. But the smartphone must be less. Savander quoted 260,000.

That is certainly nothing like the Android and Apple units combined.

I think you are right!

C.
post #66 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They also said that the new N8 would sell 50,000,000 during its lifetime, which raised a few eyebrows.

They never said that, they said they were going to sell 50 million Symbian^3 devices
post #67 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I get the impression that Nokia like to count its email capable feature phones as smart phones when it suits them.

I'd certainly like to see how they arrived at those numbers.

C.

This is the problem people have with you, you make a wild claim, and then say you don't know. Why don't you question Apples numbers claim in the same way? What does Apple class as an "activiation"?
post #68 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

They never said that, they said they were going to sell 50 million Symbian^3 devices

I read that somewhere. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it as I didn't think it would come up. One of Nokia's top people said that at the Nokia conference. If anyone misstated things then, he did.

But, while that's a very wild number for N8 sales, it's a very poor one for Symbian 3 sales, if that's what it means instead. Apple will sell more than 50 million phones in 2011. Possibly a lot more. That means that Nokia expects to be selling a lot of cheap models, and that's been their problem the past few years.
post #69 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

This is the problem people have with you, you make a wild claim, and then say you don't know. Why don't you question Apples numbers claim in the same way? What does Apple class as an "activiation"?

Apple classes an activation as when a bought phone is enabled on the carriers network. That's considered to be the most reliable number, as many companies just mean phones shipped to distributers when they say "sold".
post #70 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I read that somewhere. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it as I didn't think it would come up. One of Nokia's top people said that at the Nokia conference. If anyone misstated things then, he did.

This is what they said...

http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/...bian3-devices/

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But, while that's a very wild number for N8 sales, it's a very poor one for Symbian 3 sales, if that's what it means instead. Apple will sell more than 50 million phones in 2011. Possibly a lot more. That means that Nokia expects to be selling a lot of cheap models, and that's been their problem the past few years.

That is only for S^3 sales, I imagine they will change to S^4 at some point, and they will no longer be classed as S^3 sales.
post #71 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Apple classes an activation as when a bought phone is enabled on the carriers network. That's considered to be the most reliable number, as many companies just mean phones shipped to distributers when they say "sold".

Do they actually mean that, it's not that I don't believe you, it's just that Apple is not very open when it comes to actually giving usable numbers. Could you provide an Apple link showing that is what they mean?
post #72 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

This is what they said...

http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/...bian3-devices/

That wasn't a quote. What I read was a quote.

Quote:
That is only for S^3 sales, I imagine they will change to S^4 at some point, and they will no longer be classed as S^3 sales.

Well, 3 is their new OS version. If it only does 50,000,000 considering Nokia's smartphone sales, it means it is only on a portion of them after a whole year. Thats one reason Nokia is so screwed up. It should be on ALL of them. 4 will have the same problem. Both OS's are behind the times, and obsolete anyway. Too little, too late. The N8 isn't impressing anyone so far from what they've seen of it and its specs.
post #73 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Do they actually mean that, it's not that I don't believe you, it's just that Apple is not very open when it comes to actually giving usable numbers. Could you provide an Apple link showing that is what they mean?

That's exactly what activations mean. It's very clear. Apple doesn't lie about their numbers. They don't have to, they're very good. It's also illegal to do that.

But companies also say "sold" and "shipped".

Sold can mean sold to the consumer. But it can also mean sold to the distributer, or the carrier. Palm was doing that. Their "customer" was Sprint. When they said they sold a certain number of phones, they were actually talking about Sprint, not an end user, not activations. It turned out that activations was how they were caught with their pants down, because there were far fewer of them than phones "sold".

"Shipped" is another way of skirting around the issue. It means little other than they're in the channel. It says nothing about how many were sold, or activated.

It's too late for me to start looking up links, but that is what it means. You can look it up in Google.
post #74 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That wasn't a quote. What I read was a quote.

I provided you a page from Nokia, quoting the (at the time) CEO of Nokia making a statement showing were wrong, but you won't accept it, you would rather believe the quote you can't produce.

What is wrong with you people on this site?

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well, 3 is their new OS version. If it only does 50,000,000 considering Nokia's smartphone sales, it means it is only on a portion of them after a whole year. Thats one reason Nokia is so screwed up. It should be on ALL of them. 4 will have the same problem. Both OS's are behind the times, and obsolete anyway. Too little, too late. The N8 isn't impressing anyone so far from what they've seen of it and its specs.

I think this statement has made me lose what little respect I had left of you. You refuse to read any of the Nokia releases that explain everything you are moaning about, you just like to comment without knowing the facts. The N8 has made a lot of good impressions, just because you don't want to read them, doesn't mean they don't exist. The price alone is very impressive
post #75 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's exactly what activations mean. It's very clear. Apple doesn't lie about their numbers. They don't have to, they're very good. It's also illegal to do that.

It is time you took those Apple glasses off, have you actually looked at Apple sales numbers? They don't provide usuable numbers, they don't split by region, they don't split by model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's too late for me to start looking up links, but that is what it means. You can look it up in Google.

translated to, I can't prove it so go away. If you are going to make statements, back them up.
post #76 of 85
post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

On GDGT.

http://gdgt.com/discuss/nokias-fear-...-sure-you-abc/

C.

Are we meant to jump up and down when we hear the name "Peter Rojas"? And aren't we meant to hate anyone that had anything to do with Gizmodo?

A lot of what he says sounds very valid from an American point of view, but he seems to forgot, or doesn't understand some of the divisions of Nokia when making his claims. One is the R&D figure, he includes the whole Nokia figure (which includes NSN, and Navteq), personally, I can't see how the R&D NSN does is going to effect the areas he doesn't like about the phones?
post #78 of 85
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I read somewhere that Apple also has business activities other than cellphones. Can't find a link to that.

Seriously, this is worth a read.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07...nifesto_risku/

C.
post #79 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I read somewhere that Apple also has business activities other than cellphones. Can't find a link to that.

I didn't think you would be bright enough to see the units of Apple have a more direct relation when it comes to R&D, compared to NSN, Navteq, and Nokia Handsets.
post #80 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I provided you a page from Nokia, quoting the (at the time) CEO of Nokia making a statement showing were wrong, but you won't accept it, you would rather believe the quote you can't produce.

What is wrong with you people on this site?



I think this statement has made me lose what little respect I had left of you. You refuse to read any of the Nokia releases that explain everything you are moaning about, you just like to comment without knowing the facts. The N8 has made a lot of good impressions, just because you don't want to read them, doesn't mean they don't exist. The price alone is very impressive

Well, considering that I've never had more than a shred of respect for your trolling, I think that's fair. You just don't want to admit that Nokia is going to be the next Motorola, and you keep trying to make all the bad things look good.
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