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Ted Koppel: We helped Al Qaeda succeed beyond Bin Laden's wildest dreams

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l%2Fcomponents

3,000 people dead in one fell swoop. Few words can accurately capture this tragedy. I can, however, think of a few words to describe what happened after. Unnecessary. Myopic. Self-destructive. Goaded by fear. Emotional. Wrong.

Ted Koppel put it quite well:

Quote:
It did not have to be this way. The Bush administration's initial response was just about right. The calibrated combination of CIA operatives, special forces and air power broke the Taliban in Afghanistan and sent bin Laden and the remnants of al-Qaeda scurrying across the border into Pakistan. The American reaction was quick, powerful and effective -- a clear warning to any organization contemplating another terrorist attack against the United States. This is the point at which President George W. Bush should have declared "mission accomplished," with the caveat that unspecified U.S. agencies and branches of the military would continue the hunt for al-Qaeda's leader. The world would have understood, and most Americans would probably have been satisfied.

The lives of 19 men and a few hundred thousand dollars goaded us into spending one trillion dollars and four thousand more American lives on two wars that leave us overextended, less safe than before, and in a severe economic crisis. We're also more divided than ever.

The terrorists won. They put in a quarter into the American slot machine and hit the jackpot. The only way we can salvage anything from this is if we, as a nation, start treating each other with respect. The rampant nationalism needs to go away. The racism against Muslims needs to end. Catering to the wealthiest Americans and foreign nationals who do business here has got to cease. Make no mistake, our country was led astray by power hungry corporate interests and ethnocentric nationalists. It's time to set aside our petty differences and join the rest of the developed world in the 21st century.

Quote:
Could bin Laden, in his wildest imaginings, have hoped to provoke greater chaos? It is past time to reflect on what our enemy sought, and still seeks, to accomplish -- and how we have accommodated him.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Ted Koppel put it quite well...

Only an English-born liberal with a long record of biased journalism would attempt to recklessly condemn this nation for our own actions on self defense and in the process advocate Al Qaeda as Koppel has done... Koppel et al. is what is wrong with this nation.
post #3 of 30
I'm sure bin laden and his pals feel like winners right about now.
post #4 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I'm sure bin laden and his pals feel like winners right about now.

Bin Laden's dead, but I'm sure his "pals" who had the same goals as him definitely do. They wanted a war. They got one. They wanted to make America look tyrannical. They got that too. They wanted a means to improve their recruitment of new soldiers for their cause. They got that beyond their wildest dreams.

Damn straight they won.

Meanwhile, the Cheney/Rumsfeld war hawks got what they wanted, too. They wanted a new Pearl Harbor. They got that. They wanted a way to reelect Bush. They got that. They wanted a way to get rich on government contracts. They got that. They wanted oil revenue and power, and they got that too.

The real losers are the American and Afghani public.
post #5 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Only an English-born liberal with a long record of biased journalism would attempt to recklessly condemn this nation for our own actions on self defense and in the process advocate Al Qaeda as Koppel has done... Koppel et al. is what is wrong with this nation.

How was it self-defence?

The people who did it were dead. Iraq was attacked when they had nothing to do with it. No further attacks occurred.

'Revenge' would be a better term I think....fair enough.....understandable even...but just call it what it is.

I think there's a hell of a lot more wrong with the US right now than Koppel.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #6 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bin Laden's dead, but I'm sure his "pals" who had the same goals as him definitely do. They wanted a war. They got one. They wanted to make America look tyrannical. They got that too. They wanted a means to improve their recruitment of new soldiers for their cause. They got that beyond their wildest dreams.

Damn straight they won.

Meanwhile, the Cheney/Rumsfeld war hawks got what they wanted, too. They wanted a new Pearl Harbor. They got that. They wanted a way to reelect Bush. They got that. They wanted a way to get rich on government contracts. They got that. They wanted oil revenue and power, and they got that too.

The real losers are the American and Afghani public.

You're not seriously suggesting that that concept of Pax Americana came out of 9/11 are you?

That would be the most ridiculous and deluded bit of reasoning I had ever read if true.

There was a reason the 9/11 attack was the SECOND attempt on the World Trade Center. There was a reason the U.S.S. Cole was attacked and it existed before 9/11 and exists today.

We were and are the cop of the planet. I used to tease people that when they declare "Bring the troops home!" that they needed to add, FROM GERMANY, FROM KOREA, FROM SOMALIA, etc first because we have had these massive bases and massive foreign presence since the end of WWII.

All 9/11 did was cause us to change one word. We kept engaging in the same actions we have been engaging in worldwide since the end of WWII, only now instead of saying communism, we said terrorism. Instead of the axis of evil being bad because they wanted to end America and capitalism and replace it with communism, it became they want to end American and capitalism and replace it with feudalism with the feudal lords being decided based on their claimed Islamic reverence.

New titles, same old actions.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #7 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

We were and are the cop of the planet.....

In my experience Cops aren't known for their intelligence and generally excel at fitting people up, right-wing borderline racist attitudes, sexism, conservatism and corruption.

Not to mention the old rubber truncheon routine down in the cells.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #8 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

In my experience Cops aren't known for their intelligence and generally excel at fitting people up, right-wing borderline racist attitudes, sexism, conservatism and corruption.

Not to mention the old rubber truncheon routine down in the cells.

Very well put.
They right way to defend against terror would have been to build free high speed internet in Afghanistan and Iraq and send all of our old PCs. It would also have been a lot cheaper and far more environmental.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #9 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

How was it self-defence?

The attack upon the United States on 12/07/1941 yielded 2,459 victims.

The attack upon the United States on 09/11/2001 yielded 3,000 victims.

Both attacks upon the nation led to war upon the support of Congress assembled; based upon the "self defense" of the homeland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think there's a hell of a lot more wrong with the US right now than Koppel.

Of course; I wouldn't expect anything more from either Koppel or you, to favor Al Qaeda over the United States. That is what we have come to expect; the blame the United States mentality over every other consideration.
post #10 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Both attacks upon the nation led to war upon the support of Congress assembled; based upon the "self defense" of the homeland.

There has been no official declaration of war as a result of 9/11. Instead, we are being told that we are fighting a "War on Terror". It will turn out to be just as successful as the "War on Drugs", "War on Poverty", etc.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #11 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

There has been no official declaration of war as a result of 9/11. Instead, we are being told that we are fighting a "War on Terror". It will turn out to be just as successful as the "War on Drugs", "War on Poverty", etc.

But.....but..... but Drugs attacked us....it was self defence....

Poverty leapt out and clubbed us with a baseball bat in a dark alley...we had to dismember it with that chainsaw....

None of it is our fault...we're the police...

Oh...wait...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #12 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

There has been no official declaration of war as a result of 9/11.

Wow jazzguru! Did you miss all the events following 09/11/01? On September 18, 2001, after negotiation with the president and significant debate, Congress authorized the president to =>

"use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."


Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (Pub.L. 107-40, 115 Stat. 224, enacted September 18, 2001
post #13 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Wow jazzguru! Did you miss all the events following 09/11/01? On September 18, 2001, after negotiation with the president and significant debate, Congress authorized the president to =>

"use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."


Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (Pub.L. 107-40, 115 Stat. 224, enacted September 18, 2001

That is not a formal declaration of war. That's authorizing the president to mobilize troops indefinitely at his discretion, there by circumventing Congress and negating the need to declare war at all. I believe that to be unconstitutional.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #14 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Only an English-born liberal with a long record of biased journalism would attempt to recklessly condemn this nation for our own actions on self defense and in the process advocate Al Qaeda as Koppel has done... Koppel et al. is what is wrong with this nation.

Only a blind partisan hack would read Koppel's words as a condemnation of self-defense. Only a blind partisan hack would think that Koppel supports and advocates Al Qaeda.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #15 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Only a blind partisan hack would think that Koppel supports and advocates Al Qaeda.

Koppel is certainly not supporting America so what's that tell you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

That is not a formal declaration of war...

Are there editorial or grammatical standards that a Declaration of War requires that were overlooked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

That's authorizing the president to mobilize troops indefinitely....

That's exactly and precisely what it authorized: "..."use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations..."
post #16 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Koppel is certainly not supporting America so what's that tell you?

That he has both a brain and a conscience?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #17 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Koppel is certainly not supporting America so what's that tell you?[/B]

He IS supporting America. He wants America to succeed and not fall into the OBVIOUS traps set by those who would wish us destroyed. You're just blinded by your fear, ignorance, hate, and extreme nationalism and can't see it.

Furthermore, how do you reconcile this point of view that Koppel isn't supporting America with how Republicans have behaved (actions which you have supported) over the last 2 years since Obama was elected?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #18 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post


Both attacks upon the nation led to war upon the support of Congress assembled; based upon the "self defense" of the homeland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

There has been no official declaration of war as a result of 9/11. Instead, we are being told that we are fighting a "War on Terror".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Wow jazzguru! Did you miss all the events following 09/11/01? On September 18, 2001, after negotiation with the president and significant debate, Congress authorized the president to =>

"use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."


Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (Pub.L. 107-40, 115 Stat. 224, enacted September 18, 2001

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

That is not a formal declaration of war. That's authorizing the president to mobilize troops indefinitely at his discretion, there by circumventing Congress and negating the need to declare war at all. I believe that to be unconstitutional.

jg is correct. There was no formal declaration of war. Only Congress has that power. The President may through the War Power's Act take emergency measures, however the President has to consult with Congress first.

Constitution of the United States Provides:

Article. I.
Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power.....
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water.....


Article. II.
Section. 1. The executive Power shall be vested in a Presi-
dent of the United States of America......
Section. 2. The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States............


Quote:
The Constitution of the United States divides the war powers of the federal government between the Executive and Legislative branches: the President is the Commander in Chief of the armed forces (Article II, section 2), while Congress has the power to make declarations of war, and to raise and support the armed forces (Article I, section 8).

Over time, questions arose as to the extent of the President's authority to deploy U.S. armed forces into hostile situations abroad without a declaration of war or some other form of Congressional approval. Congress passed the War Powers Resolution in the aftermath of the Vietnam War to address these concerns and provide a set of procedures for both the President and Congress to follow in situations where the introduction of U.S. forces abroad could lead to their involvement in armed conflict.

2001: In the wake of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, Congress passed Public Law 107-40, authorizing President George W. Bush to "use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons." For the first time, "organizations and persons" are specified in a Congressional authorization to use force pursuant to the War Powers Resolution, rather than just nations.
2002: Congress authorized President George W. Bush to use force against Iraq, pursuant to the War Powers Resolution, in Public Law 107-243.

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/war-powers.php
The full text of:
PUBLIC LAW 10740 [115 STAT. 224]SEPT. 18, 2001 @
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...ubl040.107.pdf
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #19 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Are there editorial or grammatical standards that a Declaration of War requires that were overlooked?

That's exactly and precisely what it authorized: "..."use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations..."

Sorry that I didn't post fast enough @

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=113167

but you can supplement my post with what I got from wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declara..._United_States
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #20 of 30
Thread Starter 
If it's not from conservopedia, it's the Devil's Way.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #21 of 30
Of course, Congress could stop the rampant abuse of the President's emergency power to mobilize troops by cutting off funding for them...

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

He IS supporting America. He wants America to succeed...

That point is subject to debate. Koppel's condemnation of this nation plays into Al Qaeda's hand. Moreover Koppel's main point; i.e., that the War on Terror somehow fostered Al Qaeda is bogus, simply because Al Qaeda tried long before 09/11/01 to attack the nation and were successful in repeated attempts (first WTC attack, USS Cole attack, etc.). Koppel's lifetime of left-leaning biased journalism is testimony enough that his assertion here is simply more of the same and supportive only of anti-American propaganda.
post #23 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Koppel is certainly not supporting America so what's that tell you?

Just because Koppel's views run contrary to yours doesn't mean that he does not support the US. I do miss Koppel on Night Line.

Koppel make a valid argument:

Quote:
Bin Laden deserves to be the object of our hostility, national anguish and contempt, and he deserves to be taken seriously as a canny tactician. But much of what he has achieved we have done, and continue to do, to ourselves. Bin Laden does not deserve that we, even inadvertently, fulfill so many of his unimagined dreams.

No support for obl here, however and rightfully so, Koppel does recognize obl as a formable foe.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #24 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Of course, Congress could stop the rampant abuse of the President's emergency power to mobilize troops by cutting off funding for them...

This has been discussed, however it would have an adverse impact of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

That point is subject to debate. Koppel's condemnation of this nation plays into Al Qaeda's hand. Moreover Koppel's main point; i.e., that the War on Terror somehow fostered Al Qaeda is bogus, simply because Al Qaeda tried long before 09/11/01 to attack the nation and were successful in repeated attempts (first WTC attack, USS Cole attack, etc.). Koppel's lifetime of left-leaning biased journalism is testimony enough that his assertion here is simply more of the same and supportive only of anti-American propaganda.

Unless there is a declaration of war and a suspension of habeas corpus laws, Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speech--Koppel is free to express his "left-leaning biased journalism". You may not like it, but then again we have to bear with those who have views of the far right.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #26 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Just because Koppel's views run contrary to yours doesn't mean that he does not support the US.

Explain how Koppel's views are at all American? Essentially what Koppel is advancing is that all the sacrifice by the American veterans in Iraq and Afghanistan has been wasted. I refuse to accept that view. Moreover, while I support Koppel's right to express his view (I never challenged that) I reserve the right to properly define Koppel's view as anti-American.
post #27 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Explain how Koppel's views are at all American? Essentially what Koppel is advancing is that all the sacrifice by the American veterans in Iraq and Afghanistan has been wasted.

This is not an un-American or anti-American view at all. Minimally it is an opinion. More likely it is a factual observation.

Let me give you a different example. Let's say that I say something like "All of Obama's efforts to stimulate and revive the economy have been wasted. And further more, his actions are making things worse." This does not make me un-American or anti-American (well, perhaps in some people's opinion it does.) It is my observation and opinion about the President's actions and policies. I may be right, I may be wrong. But the statement is not un-American or anti-American. Arguably it could be considered very pro-American in the sense that I am very concerned about America and Americans and very concerned about the actions one leader is taking that I think are actually harming American and Americans.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

I refuse to accept that view.

OK. So you disagree with his opinion and assessment. This does not make him un-American or anti-American.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

I reserve the right to properly define Koppel's view as anti-American.

You reserve the right to express your opinion of his opinion, but you cross the line if you claim a factual nature of your opinion.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #28 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

OK. So you disagree with his opinion and assessment. This does not make him un-American or anti-American.

If Koppel merely disagrees with the war or disagrees with the policy behind the war I would not have made the assertion I advanced. However, Koppel went way beyond that in his statement. Indeed, Ted Koppel advances the wild accusation that our servicemen and servicewomen are "playing into bin Laden's hands," and the sacrifice made by these servicemen and servicewomen "wasted." That is what I responded to and I maintain that that type of assessment is anti-American and way beyond the pale.
post #29 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Indeed, Ted Koppel advances the wild accusation that our servicemen and servicewomen are "playing into bin Laden's hands," and the sacrifice made by these servicemen and servicewomen "wasted."

First, I would argue that he's right insofar as US government policy goes. The servicemen are following orders. If they have played into bin Laden's hands" it's a result of US government military policy, strategy and tactics. Second, this claim of the effort being wasted is a reasonable claim. It is an open question whether or not their efforts have achieved the goals they set out to (hint they probably haven't since the "goals" were never really specified clearly.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

That is what I responded to and I maintain that that type of assessment is anti-American and way beyond the pale.

I disagree with you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #30 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

OK. So you disagree with his opinion and assessment. This does not make him un-American or anti-American.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

If Koppel merely disagrees with the war or disagrees with the policy behind the war I would not have made the assertion I advanced. However, Koppel went way beyond that in his statement. Indeed, Ted Koppel advances the wild accusation that our servicemen and servicewomen are playing into bin Laden's hands, and the sacrifice made by these servicemen and servicewomen wasted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

First, I would argue that he's right insofar as US government policy goes. The servicemen are following orders. If they have played into bin Laden's hands" it's a result of US government military policy, strategy and tactics. Second, this claim of the effort being wasted is a reasonable claim. It is an open question whether or not their efforts have achieved the goals they set out to (hint they probably haven't since the "goals" were never really specified clearly.)

I'm with mj here. Koppel's comments are not unAmerican, and you have the right to label Koppel as such---but you are wrong. You also incorrectly state that Koppel advances the wild accusation that "our servicemen and servicewomen are playing into bin Laden's hands, and the sacrifice made by these servicemen and servicewomen wasted." Koppel makes no such assertion:

Quote:
The goal of any organized terrorist attack is to goad a vastly more powerful enemy into an excessive response. And over the past nine years, the United States has blundered into the 9/11 snare with one overreaction after another. Bin Laden deserves to be the object of our hostility, national anguish and contempt, and he deserves to be taken seriously as a canny tactician. But much of what he has achieved we have done, and continue to do, to ourselves.Bin Laden does not deserve that we, even inadvertently, fulfill so many of his unimagined dreams.

[T]he insidious thing about terrorism is that there is no such thing as absolute security. Each incident provokes the contemplation of something worse to come. The Bush administration convinced itself that the minds that conspired to turn passenger jets into ballistic missiles might discover the means to arm such "missiles" with chemical, biological or nuclear payloads. This became the existential nightmare that led, in short order, to a progression of unsubstantiated assumptions: that Saddam Hussein had developed weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons; that there was a connection between the Iraqi leader and al-Qaeda.

Bin Laden had nothing to do with fostering these misconceptions. None of this had any real connection to 9/11. There was no group known as "al-Qaeda in Iraq" at that time. But the political climate of the moment overcame whatever flaccid opposition there was to invading Iraq, and the United States marched into a second theater of war, one that would prove far more intractable and painful and draining than its supporters had envisioned.

As for the 100,000 U.S. troops in or headed for Afghanistan, many of them will be there for years to come, too -- not because of America's commitment to a functioning democracy there; even less because of what would happen to Afghan girls and women if the Taliban were to regain control. The reason is nuclear weapons. Pakistan has an arsenal of 60 to 100 nuclear warheads. Were any of those to fall into the hands of al-Qaeda's fundamentalist allies in Pakistan, there is no telling what the consequences might be.

Again, this dilemma is partly of our own making. America's war on terrorism is widely perceived throughout Pakistan as a war on Islam. A muscular Islamic fundamentalism is gaining ground there and threatening the stability of the government, upon which we depend to guarantee the security of those nuclear weapons. Since a robust U.S. military presence in Pakistan is untenable for the government in Islamabad, however, tens of thousands of U.S. troops are likely to remain parked next door in Afghanistan for some time.


Ted Koppel
Quote:
Our society finds truth too strong a medicine to digest undiluted. In its purest form, truth is not a polite tap on the shoulder. It is a howling reproach.

SOME REVIEWS OF KOPPEL'S WASHINGTON POST OP-ED

Why Ted Koppel's Op-Ed on 9/11 Matters

SEP 10 2010, 11:05 AM ET
Chris Good The Atlantic

Quote:
Koppel's, however, is unique in one regard: it has been difficult for Americans to analyze 9/11 dispassionately--the very reason, one could say, that America's response to the attacks were so marred as Koppel describes it--and Koppel is known as a dispassionate voice, respected as a deliverer of unbiased, straight news during his career......

Koppel's voice lends dispassionate weight to the discussion of 9/11 because he is, for the most part, disconnected from the emotions of 9/11. It's taboo in many circles to attempt to analyze 9/11 dispassionately. Saying things like Koppel said are considered, by some, to be blasphemous. The fact that he said them probably won't change the debate over 9/11, but if it does, it will move the center of gravity of this debate a millimeter away from the emotion of anger and the prime goal in pursuing al Qaeda--stated by Presidents Bush and Obama alike--of revenge.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...matters/62778/

Plain Talk: Koppels right -- bin Ladens a happy man

Dave Zweifel, Capital Times editor emeritus | Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 4:55 am

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Koppel sees the vitriolic debate over a mosque near the World Trade Center site and the obscure minister in Florida threatening to burn copies of the Quran as lowering Americas image in the world and playing into the hands of bin Laden extremists.

The goal of any organized terrorist attack is to goad a vastly more powerful enemy into an excessive response. And over the past nine years, the United States has blundered into the 9/11 snare with one over-reaction after another, he said, pointing to the invasion of Iraq as the first major mistake.

Through the initial spending of a few hundred thousand dollars, training and then sacrificing 19 of his foot soldiers, bin Laden has watched his relatively tiny and all but anonymous organization of a few hundred zealots turn into the most recognized international franchise since McDonalds. Could any enemy of the United States have achieved more with less? he asks.

Hes precisely to the point. Instead of coming together as we did following 9/11 and using our energy to make our nation stronger and safer, weve devolved into a divisive and often paranoid society that sees neighbors as enemies and fellow citizens as suspects.

We question historically held values like freedom of religion, were not so sure about freedom of the press, we refuse to listen to opposing views, we shout down those with whom we disagree. As Koppel said, were in chaos.


If this is what America has become, bin Laden must be ecstatic.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opin...22d8fc96f.html

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Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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