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Apple sues 'HyperMac' accessory maker over MagSafe, iPod cables - Page 3

post #81 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I count 8 trolls in 57 posts, with multiple posts per troll in most cases. Maybe HyperMac called up Rent-A-Troll.

I just checked. rentatroll.com is available. Nice business opportunity for Teck. He can be the instructor for training the recruits.

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post #82 of 173
I hope its a prelude to Apple making more mag-chargers. On e for in vehicle would be nice, we know you can buy a car inverter - but thats not a very slick solution.
It would be nice if i could also buy a universal charger and get the mag tip.
post #83 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjojade View Post


2. The mag safe connector issue is different. They acquire Apple manufactured MagSafe connectors and wire them to another charging station. How can Apple control this? That seems wrong. They aren't making the connector, they are simply modifying it. A manufacturer of a product can't decide how it's being used once it's been sold. That would be like a hard drive manufacturer saying someone can't buy their external drive and extract the drive and put it in their own case. There is no warranty once you modify the device, and it's usually not cost effective, but if you want to do that, go right ahead.

I agree. If a company buys the connectors from Apple, then they have already paid the fee. Why should they not be able to cobble together anything they want out of the part they have purchased? If they are getting them from some unknown recycler, then that should not be an issue either since someone has already paid the cost of the part to Apple. Apple already bricked my iPhone charger which worked with my 2g Iphone but is now unusable with the iPhone 4. The phone gives me an error message which says that the "charging is not supported with this accessory"
Total BS from a company that claims they are so "Green" How many chargers has it bricked in order to sell more accessories?
post #84 of 173
Once again we have a situation where Apple has to protect their product and licensing program, but there wouldn't be much demand for HyperMac products if Apple didn't charge $29 for $5 cables.
post #85 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

I despise these immoral lawsuits.

It should be legal for HyperMac, without paying licensing fees, to manufacture a product that can plug into an accessory port on an Apple product.

Allowing companies to make incompatible ports, and then to charge licensing fees to sell something that fits into those ports? That is not what I'd call fair or beneficial to our society or economy.

Remember, all laws are enforced at the end of a gun, by violence. I don't consider it moral to point a gun at somebody because they made something that can plug into an accessory port.

Idea ownership ("intellectual property") has gotten way out of hand.

I am a bit surprised by not allowing products to be made to work with YOUR OWN stuff - I mean, what is the point of touting the benefits of your magsafe adapter if it is too restricted or expensive or limited in how and where you how you can buy it and use it.

Not allow OTHER manufacturers to use the port is a different story. At least in this case in my opinion - the magsafe adapter is a competitive advantage and a reason why you might look at Apple instead of the competition. Even so - that should not stop others form using the idea of a magnetically attached power cord from copying the idea behind it - but not the actual implementation of specific configuration.

Items such as a video output port - there is a reason why there are consortiums and standards bodies for that sort of thing - since just about every manufacturer has to make a product that works with someone else's product at some point. Not so for power supplies - I only NEED to make power supplies that are compatible with my own products since I include that power supply with my product.

and to some extent proprietary power supplies can be a good thing - despite how annoying it is to have a box full of adapters - if you never accidentally plug the in the wrong adapter and blow up your device that is a good thing.
post #86 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcahill009 View Post

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3848038


Maybe they didn't have it in that particular store but if you asked a sales person maybe they could have had it shipped to you or the store the next day.

I did ask. They were clueless.

I also went to Best Buy.
post #87 of 173
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Originally Posted by supremedesigner View Post

This is off post but I noticed the new header. That's nice and I like it! Are you planning to revamp the whole site as well? Pure CSS3 and HTML5! w00t!

I'm not that impressed. I am all for making the header use as little vertical space as possible. In this case it would be 90px to accommodate the banner ad.

As far as updating the whole site is concerned, they can only implement what vBulletin offers. Until we get a complete revision from jelsoft that isn't going to happen. And since jelsoft just released their new portal version it looks like they haven't had much time to devote to yet another complete overhaul including an iPhone version. Disappointing really.

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post #88 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Reread the part of my post where I said I found them via mailorder upon my return. And please lighten up on the personal remarks.

Well now that the facts are known, i.e. that a solution was available to you in advance, that kind of deflates your original gripe against Apple over this. All that is left is a pissing contest over who said what and when during the course of this discussion.

Thompson
post #89 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Apparently we have discovered still something else you seem to know nothing about. FYI patents have to be vigorously defended or you will lose them ... by law.. This is not rocket science .... well, except maybe in your case.


Do tell! I want to hear all about this. This indeed IS something I know nothing about!

Yer a riot, kid. Please don't ever change.
post #90 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Remember, all laws are enforced at the end of a gun, by violence.

Maybe in Texas, but in most states and countries, it's enforced by a judicial system which does not involve a gun.

And judges aren't armed like Judge Dredd.
post #91 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard View Post

Maybe in Texas, but in most states and countries, it's enforced by a judicial system which does not involve a gun.

The gun is always implied. Without it there is no enforcement.

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post #92 of 173
If I buy a Civic and rice it up and resell it, Honda can't sue me, can they? So how can Apple sue these guys when all they're doing is buying product, modding it, and reselling it??
post #93 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

Now I'm gonna guess that THAT thing is almost certainly a patent infringement.

C

Build it for yourself, and don't resell it. No problem.

Thompson
post #94 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

If I buy a Civic and rice it up and resell it, Honda can't sue me, can they? So how can Apple sue these guys when all they're doing is buying product, modding it, and reselling it??

Yes, the reselling part is where you get into trouble.

Thompson
post #95 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The gun is always implied. Without it there is no enforcement.

Oh, come on, that's ridiculous. All business lawsuits are solved with lawyers and money. Lawsuits aren't handled with a gun. Let's be serious. Guns haven't enforced business law for years.

Nobody loses a life over a lawsuit (at least in North America). You might become bankcrupt.
post #96 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyrrad View Post

It's not rocket science, but it's patent law. You don't lose your patent rights by not enforcing them. They might lose the ability to sue or recover as much HyperMac for these particular products in the future if they don't sue or inform them of the alleged infringement, but they would be able to enforce it against anyone else, but that's the case any time you fail to sue someone that has infringed your rights. However, Apple could maintain their right to sue simply by sending letters informing them of the infringement and telling them to cease.

You're likely confusing this concept with trademark law, in which can a loss in rights can occur if not enforced properly.

I stand corrected, but let me ask you something. If Apple did nothing, would that not set a precedent that could possibly be used against them if somebody else decided to infringe in the future?
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post #97 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard View Post

Oh, come on, that's ridiculous. All business lawsuits are solved with lawyers and money. Lawsuits aren't handled with a gun. Let's be serious. Guns haven't enforced business law for years.

Nobody loses a life over a lawsuit (at least in North America). You might become bankcrupt.

I'm not a lawyer, but I was under the impression that ultimate enforcement of law is handled by the Police and they are usually packing.

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post #98 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

If I buy a Civic and rice it up and resell it, Honda can't sue me, can they? So how can Apple sue these guys when all they're doing is buying product, modding it, and reselling it??

It is called being a "patent troll". They hope to intimidate, and in that posture, it matters less whether they have a leg to stand on legally.
post #99 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

Yes, the reselling part is where you get into trouble.

Thompson

Bullshit. Why talk about these things if you know nothing about it?

You are free to buy a Civic, juice it up, and sell it. Period.
post #100 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

If Apple did nothing, would that not set a precedent that could possibly be used against them if somebody else decided to infringe in the future?

Yes. That is correct.
post #101 of 173
Wait a minute,
So are these accessories being used on devices other than those from apple?

These companies have no control over what type of connection Apple uses.

Now, if they are manufacturing phones, laptops or ipods with magsafes, doc connectors, then we are talking.
post #102 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

I despise these immoral lawsuits.

It should be legal for HyperMac, without paying licensing fees, to manufacture a product that can plug into an accessory port on an Apple product.

Allowing companies to make incompatible ports, and then to charge licensing fees to sell something that fits into those ports? That is not what I'd call fair or beneficial to our society or economy.

Remember, all laws are enforced at the end of a gun, by violence. I don't consider it moral to point a gun at somebody because they made something that can plug into an accessory port.

Idea ownership ("intellectual property") has gotten way out of hand.

Actually, I agree it would be nice to have agreeable standards for everything, but it's not realistic. Uniqueness is what gives value to things, to follow your plan would crush the innovative spirit. Patents run out, and when they do the really great ones become standards, this system has worked pretty well for us for quite some time now.
post #103 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Bullshit. Why talk about these things if you know nothing about it?

You are free to buy a Civic, juice it up, and sell it. Period.

Newtron you simply miss the point almost always. Yes you can buy a civic paint it and resell it (as long as you are selling your property and are still calling it a civic)

What you can't do it buy a civic, take out the engine put it into a new car and say your selling a new line of cars called hypercivics. Do you get it??
post #104 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4miler View Post

Back to topic.

I was furious when I read Apple's legal action against HyperMac.

I have a long-life HyperMac battery. Said to last around 10-12 hours. If Apple does not allow other manufacturers to make these products for the Mac -- and Apple does not -- then it is just plain spitefulness.

There's going to come a day, possibly in the next iteration of Windows, then Windows -- which might not be AS good as OSX -- but it's good enough. I might hop off the train.

Apple will allow it, but HyperMac apparently didn't want to license the MagSafe connectors from Apple, so they tried an end-around and are being called on it. Apple invented, the MagSafe, they get to dictate the licensing terms, it's pretty simple really. And it's still simple when another company decides to do business with a proprietary system without getting a license. Chances are this one settles in a few months with HyperMac paying a license fee like they should have in the beginning.
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post #105 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

I despise these immoral lawsuits.

It should be legal for HyperMac, without paying licensing fees, to manufacture a product that can plug into an accessory port on an Apple product.

Allowing companies to make incompatible ports, and then to charge licensing fees to sell something that fits into those ports? That is not what I'd call fair or beneficial to our society or economy.

Remember, all laws are enforced at the end of a gun, by violence. I don't consider it moral to point a gun at somebody because they made something that can plug into an accessory port.

Idea ownership ("intellectual property") has gotten way out of hand.

As much as I hate Apple not licensing this tech or, to make matters worse, not creating a slew of accessories for MagSafe, it is there right. The free market will decide and forcing a company to make any and all tech they create to be open to all to profit from will decrease innovation if there isnt a real chance to benefit from it.

The US parent system isnt perfect, not by a long shot, but to destroy the idea that a novel idea cant be protected and profited from would be detrimental to the future of all industry. At least with Apple they are using the tech the created instead of just sitting on it.

Just as Apple can choose not to license their tech to others, we have the right to not buy their products. I believe very strongly in this freedom from all sides.


PS: Why havent other PC vendors created their own magnetic connector? This idea predates Apples use by decades as I seem to recall crock pots and other kitchen appliances using magnetic plugs as early as the 1980s. Apple cant have a patent on magnetics used for power plugs in computers (at least not anything protectable), they can only have there specific plug interface protected. The other PC vendors could even ban together to get all their power plugs using the same interface. Additionally, cellphone vendors using Android (or not) could ban to get to use the same future-forward port interface thus making the idea of switching to an Android phone (or some other OS) more palatable if they could create an ecosystem for their devices that could quickly rival Apple in terms of sheer numbers. Apple is Spain and their iPhone landed in the New World with no real opposition while forever changing the culture of the smartphone industry. Unite and fight back if you want to survive.
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post #106 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by MenLoveToys View Post

You are just a mean ASS. Chill the hell out. The guy was making a comment and you say LIE and incompetent.

You need to take your meds and a nap.

Looking at the MenLoveToys join date and other MenLoveToys posts, I suspects me a custom-cut faux-third-party duplicate account!
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post #107 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Bullshit. Why talk about these things if you know nothing about it?

You are free to buy a Civic, juice it up, and sell it. Period.

I was trying to be concise, so I left out the context that I thought was inherent to the thread. Allow me to reinstate the context...

Sure, you can purchase up a car, work it over, and then sell it as a modified "whatever".

But you can't just build your own brand of car using other company's patented components and then mass market it as something new.


Thompson
post #108 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorinlynx View Post

Okay, I don't get it.

What value does Apple find in suing accessory makers? When I choose a computer or other product, having lots of accessories available from many sources makes me more willing to choose that brand and model than one where there's hardly any accessories available.

Imagine if Apple started suing the makers of iPod/iPhone cases? They'd hurt their image even more.

If a company is selling lots of portable battery packs for Macbooks, it means people are buying and using Macbooks. This is a good thing, and Apple doesn't even sell a product in this space!

Also, Hypermac seems to be using genuine Apple-made magsafe plugs, not manufacturing their own. They're not even violating patents.

And the dock connector is an industry-standard connector; Apple did NOT invent it.

They're shooting themselves in the foot by suing. It just makes them look bad to bite the hands that feed them, albeit indirectly.

When one accessory maker decides to flaunt the licensing rules, it gives the flaunter an unfair advantage over the licensed accessory makers. Apple has to sue to enforce the licensing rules or all those license paying accessory makers will jump ship too. Leaving Apple either with a) no accessories, or b) no licensing income at all or c) no influence on how its trade marks get used in accessory marketing.

The paying accessory makers accept the licenses because it keeps the low rent fly-by-night copycats out of the legitimate retail outlets, preserving their profit margins, and they get some measure of co-branding with Apple by being on display in an Apple store or on the Apple site.

So when Apple is seen to enforce the license terms, those paying licensors see Apple maintaining value in the paid license game, which indirectly benefits their own bottom lines too.
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post #109 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

It is called being a "patent troll". They hope to intimidate, and in that posture, it matters less whether they have a leg to stand on legally.

Typically the term "patent troll" is applied to persons or companies that have no intention of using the intellectual property (IP). They just reserve ownership of an idea (usually pretty vague and/or obvious) in case someone ever makes money off of anything that smells remotely like it. Then they try to siphon off some $$$. Usually a big company goes ahead and settles for a sum that is small to them but big to the troll, in order to save money on litigation.

Let's see... Apple patented, implemented, and is selling the technology in question. Then somebody extracts the components and uses them in their own product line. You can call it however you see it, but I don't see where the particular phrase "patent troll" is appropriate. Maybe just call Apple "big meanies" and move on?



Thompson
post #110 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post

Apple is being absolutely ludicrous here.

Apple can go f*ck themselves this time around. I hope HyperMac wins this case, and kicks Apple to the curb.

Not even a remote possibility.
post #111 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The gun is always implied. Without it there is no enforcement.

No, guns are never implied or used in civil cases. Just good old fashioned accountant enforced solutions. Something often far more powerful than a gun.
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post #112 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

This really sucks. Apple needs to provide low-cost licensing for the MagSafe. Acceptable alternatives would be to have a secondary charging port or replaceable batteries.

What this means for me is that I'll need to buy a PC simply because I couldn't power my MacBook on some of the trips I go on.

Well, if they had to license it for what you would like, they would essentially be allowing those other "PC" manufacturers to create laptops with magsafe connectors. That is the stumbling block, Apple doesn't want everyone else to build laptops with it, because the feature is that good.
post #113 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Bullshit. Why talk about these things if you know nothing about it?

You are free to buy a Civic, juice it up, and sell it. Period.

Such a strong strawman you build! Just as strong as the house of straw in the Three Little Pigs!

But you cannot buy wrecked cars and tear down any undamaged Koni Macpherson struts for the special Koni valve and put that into your own Macpherson strut that you say can replace the stock struts. Then say they are great compatible struts because you salvaged the special patented part you know you are not allowed to produce.
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post #114 of 173
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Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

No, guns are never implied or used in civil cases. Just good old fashioned accountant enforced solutions. Something often far more powerful than a gun.

What is an accountant going to do, punch you in the jaw with a roll of nickels? The word "Enforce" root is "FORCE" as in cruise missile.

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post #115 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

I despise these immoral lawsuits.

It should be legal for HyperMac, without paying licensing fees, to manufacture a product that can plug into an accessory port on an Apple product.

Allowing companies to make incompatible ports, and then to charge licensing fees to sell something that fits into those ports? That is not what I'd call fair or beneficial to our society or economy.

Remember, all laws are enforced at the end of a gun, by violence. I don't consider it moral to point a gun at somebody because they made something that can plug into an accessory port.

Idea ownership ("intellectual property") has gotten way out of hand.

Your morality must be pretty fuzzy. If I make a port system, anyone can use it to piggy back on the products that I market. Why can't they just clone my product that uses that port? What's the difference? I invented both of them. Port systems are just not important as a part of the way I want to make money from my invention. Really, Apple is not bound to license any of their inventions, they only do so because they believe it will increase their profits for the items that they are marketing. Most of what they do is amoral, profit motivated, not immoral. Unless you think that profit is bad, most people don't think it is.
post #116 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

If they ban these products, they are just harming the consumer by removing the ability to take a Mac laptop or iOS device on a long journey like a camping trip.

If you are camping hopefully using a laptop is way low on the priority list. As for iOS devices, solutions are plentiful since is uses the industry defacto standard iPod dock connector for which there are a plethora of devices. I can recharge my iPad with a $25 eneloop battery pack and a standard iPod cable.

I'll put in with you for laptops, esp. the new ones with non-removable batteries. However Apple does offer airline/car adaptors and you can alway use an inverter.

Quote:
That will drive people to buy non-Apple devices that they can take with them.

Doubtful. I know of no friends or families who have car specific adapters -even third party/cheaper ones for standard PC's. They just use an inverter. And the number who have a second battery, let alone some sort of external charger is even more minuscule. Like it or not, these are extreme edge cases - which is probably why Apple feels little pressure to license MagSafe like they have the ipod dock
post #117 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

What is an accountant going to do, punch you in the jaw with a roll of nickels? The word "Enforce" root is "FORCE" as in cruise missile.

Worse, file a court approved form with a bank, provide a copy of the judgement, and seize your assets or garnish your wages. All without you even having to be present if you lose your case.

And by the time it gets to this the judge would be pretty pissed off because the loser has failed to pay the judgement willingly.

It is you that is injecting the words enforce and force here. I didn't, and can't be held liable for your lack of knowledge for how the civil system actually works. So take your high-hobby horse language parsing elsewhere, it broke.
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post #118 of 173
I wonder if a troll that is being paid by a company to make negative posts (a form of guerilla marketing) on websites dedicated to a rival has to tell the truth when asked that as a direct question. Kind of like undercover law enforcement having to admit they're cops if challenged. I've heard several respected regulars here speculate about how our current trolls may be being paid, but I've never heard anyone ask them directly, and I've heard the trolls deny every accusation leveled against them except that. Maybe someone should ask them directly and see if they sidestep in their answer.
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post #119 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I'm not quite sure how Apple loses profits from these products, they don't sell external batteries.

If they ban these products, they are just harming the consumer by removing the ability to take a Mac laptop or iOS device on a long journey like a camping trip. That will drive people to buy non-Apple devices that they can take with them.

Who says the products are banned? Why is everyone, including the moderator taking the unfounded word of a known BS artist like Newtron as gospel? He's factually incorrect on every point.

Further proof: http://www.quickertek.com/products/apple_juicz.php

QuickerTek is a well known accessory maker, they sell the solar charger you are errantly believing does not exist because Newtron want's you and others to think so. It is expensive as hell because 27 watts of on-the-go solar is expensive by definition, not because there is some problem with MagSafe connectors. That was the first non-forum link on the search [macbook pro solar], and third link overall. Hardly obscure.

So can we just let this whole damn fake problem die? The stores the OP cited that he went to (later in the thread) carry the stuff that would have done the trick, he just "missed" them and didn't want to ask a salesperson -- his problem, not Apples. Then the later MagSafe rant was pulled out as a red herring too. Quickertek proves that MagSafe licensing isn't an issue in providing mobile power for a MacBook/MacBookPro, the whole issue is just plain made up trolling-bait.
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post #120 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

Looking at the MenLoveToys join date and other MenLoveToys posts, I suspects me a custom-cut faux-third-party duplicate account!

Their called sock puppets and we are practically choking on the lint

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)
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