My Statement to Nations That Hate the US

Here's mine:

Dear nations that hate us:

FOAD

Thank you.

This is the most embarrassing kind of jingoistic idiocy.

you think everybody is against the gallant hero who stands with nobility in the foggy haze of an uncertain world, lonely and heroic, staring into the steely distance (bring up the sound track of horns and fanfare) the rising sun glints off of his worn but still shiny metal armour......(key in backdrop of OL GLORY) and a matte shot of a soarring Bald Eagle......

With this kind of self important back patting I just want to hate America even though I love America.

Thank a god (who's existence/non-existence is not subject to such a word) that America is made up of many people with many different ways of thinking . . . not just flag waving pick-up truck driving, good ol boys lookin for a fight.

[quote]Originally posted by glurx:
<strong>Here's mine:
Dear nations that hate us:
FOAD
Thank you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Indubitably (always wanted to use that word)!

I still believe that this is the greatest established democracy of the 21st century. 50 years later though...I (we) could be wrong. But hell, at least you don't get shot in the head (blown up, decapitated, raped, stoned, etc.) for speaking your ideas, thoughts and feelings.

"America: Love it or Leave It!" John Walker Linde (sp?) did...and look where that got him...
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

There is so much room for improvement. But things like that take a long time. So far, so good...well sorta... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

"Remember who has the Smallpox..."

[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:

<strong>This is the most embarrassing kind of jingoistic idiocy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And yet it didn't prevent you from gilding the lilly. I didn't hear any music when I read SDW2001's post.

I'm with Glurx ................FOAD

Americans bust their asses just like anyone else. I've been to Saudi Arabia...wouldn't trade a damn thing with'em.

"We tried out a new system of government, and as a result, we became the richest, most powerful nation in the world"

You make it sound so simple. From 1776 to 1941 the U.S. was NOT the richest country in the world. It was third or fourth behind England, France, and Germany. It's not that hard to pull ahead when Europe was being destroyed in WWII. For years after the war Europe was rebuilding itself While Americans were investing money in companies like IBM. The U.S. has been lucky to avoid the wars that plague Europe because we only have two neighbors. Mexico is too poor and Canada is too cold to want anyway. When you have 30 countries packed together like that it naturally leads to less stability because there are more motives to go to war.

"It can't get worse than it is now, right? Just think, in the process you could even win world wide approval and aid for embracing civilized democracy."

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever hear. Civilized? The U.S. is civilized? I went into a Blimpies the other day to have lunch and Jerry Springer is on TV. There are people screaming at each other. This is little better than a cock fight. Then I go into the laundromat and there's Divorce Court. People are yelling at each other and right in front of a child too. One of the things I was taught was that an adult should never argue in front of a child.

Kids can go into a supermarket and see headlines like "Whitney Houston gets beaten up by drug dealer" or more pictures of JonBenet Ramsey. What kind of lowlife gets off on stories about a child that has been murdered and why is this in the supermarket? I'm not saying that pornography shoold be outlawed but it should only be sold in out of the way places.

Americans make more money and that's about it. To claim that we are civilized is ridiculous.

[quote]Originally posted by spindler:
<strong>You make it sound so simple. From 1776 to 1941 the U.S. was NOT the richest country in the world. It was third or fourth behind England, France, and Germany. It's not that hard to pull ahead when Europe was being destroyed in WWII. For years after the war Europe was rebuilding itself While Americans were investing money in companies like IBM. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Uh..he said resulted..didn't say started out as.

I believe we also helped rebuild countries after the war.

I loved the first post in this thread..very well written.

As far as the U.S. not being civilized...please...I can see you probably haven't left your beverly hills home. Try traveling around instead of watching TV or reading the pulp "mags".

I have been to Saudi Arabia myself...and I agree..they can have it!

Of course they resent us. Most of the countries you are refering to are still in the 19th century while we are in the 21rst. Not always by their own choice.

And I might add we didn't get here by just being nice. Read your history books. Besides trying to build something good we've also been underhanded at times and just plain lucky. In the past we've supported leaders ( who keep those people in the past because it's easier to manage them ) just so we could get something we needed ( stratigic or material ).

I love this country but, I also prefer to look at the truth.

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>

[quote]The U.S. has been lucky to avoid the wars that plague Europe because we only have two neighbors. Mexico is too poor and Canada is too cold to want anyway.<hr></blockquote>

The US did attempt to take Canada from the British twice. Once to prevent attacks from the North after the revolution, and again in 1812. There were also more peaceful bits of expansionism. Somebody (can't remember his name) wanted to bring British Columbia into the United States, but the US government at the time thought it would be best to concentrate on the development of existing parts of the US.

Canada does have plenty of resources that might be fought for somewhere else, but it's much easier for us to sell them to you.

I take back my first image (above) and see rather this:

(close up shot...color tone of light golden browns and warm reds) A glassy eyed youth, full of goodness, clean, well cared for, who naturally knows the differences between good and evil . . .(could be played by Micky Rooney as a young man).....gestures meaningfully with his fist and utters: "geez you guys... you just don't get it do you . . .things here are so swell . . . and we did it all by being so goldarnit swell . . .can't you see" (pull back shot... camera recedes down leaf strewn country road to show earnest youth at a CrossRoads with a field beyond him, a flag in the distance and, of course, a setting sun.... roll music...credits Reading: Director: an asundry semi-invisible history of plotocrats, privateers, wealth mercantalists and manifest-destinerians, Gaphers, Grips and workers: the people of the USofA, Catering:banana republics, et al. )

Granted much of what you say is good but your ignorance of the real history of US growth and expansion is astounding.... our history is chock full of very obviouse abuses . . . and not always the distant history (Chile, El Salvador, Guatamala etc) much of US greatness comes from our use of military force for the purposes of ensuring that we get what we want... including the native's resources . . . (such as with T Roosavelt and the Marines in South America..and more) this is a not to distant cousin from what the British did that is usually called Imperialism . . . we are not so innocent.

And as for this so covetted thing "government transparency"? what was the whole guns for hostages? . . . who didn't remember what? how deep did it go? who's arguing for disallowing investigations? . . . this "transparency" is a truly good ideal . . .sometimes I wonder how true it is that we have it . ... and how much those who say they want it really do want it?


and who are you talking about by the way SDW2001? by the end of your innitial post you seem to be pointing to one particular country . . . where people are starving in the streets.....where is that?

Heres my response to them and to the Americans here who are so reluctant or embarrassed to admit that the US rocks:

Blow me, Bonzo.

OK, it ain't poetry, but it'll do...........................

The goverment of the United States of America, like any other offical goverments in the world, are merely just puppets controlled by the same puppeter.

This puppeter, created, divided, and ended a goverment as he wish.

Puppets are played to fight against other puppets, and in the same time some puppets are played to make peace with other puppets.

People who aren't in the know, thought that the puppets are acting on their own.

Imagine a puppet beat you up regulary, at some point, you will harbor an animosity toward the puppet. But unknown to you, the puppet is merely just controlled by the puppeter. Even if you destroyed the puppet, the puppeter will just use another puppet to fool you, and even worse, you too can be played by the puppeter like a puppet.

Folks... Our true enemy is currently hiding and using puppets so that we will fight against each other.

hehe..should be Bozo

[quote]Originally posted by digix:
<strong>The goverment of the United States of America, like any other offical goverments in the world, are merely just puppets controlled by the same puppeter.

This puppeter, created, divided, and ended a goverment as he wish.
(blah blah blah useless banter inserted here)
Folks... Our true enemy is currently hiding and using puppets so that we will fight against each other.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh geee..is it the Cigarette Smoking man?!

No wait...


I bet it's Fred Rogers aka Mr. Rogers!!
:eek:

Now this last post that I just quoted is one heck of a made up story...I got a good laugh out of that one! LOL Thanks!

**** you, you ****ing isolationist. Wave your ****ing cowboy hat for President Bush for me.

[after reading digix's post]

Is that you, naim?

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>

/Robert DeNiro voice:
Are you talking to me? Are you ****ing talking to me??

**** you you mother****er!

/end Robert DeNiro voice



[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: Josey Wales ]</p>

If you want an example of our fine history you don't even have to look beyond the confines of our boarders.

Are you aware that we've broken every treaty we made with the American Indian?

American history is chock full of proven examples we'd like to forget. And reason enough for others to look at us in a less than pristine light.

Remembering them is more useful so we might heve less tendency to repeat our mistakes.

We may be the " Big Deal " on this planet but, like I said we didn't get there by just being nice or always doing the right thing. A lot of things just fell into place at the right time.

Assuming that some other country could just try the same thing and get the same result would depend on a lot of other factors also ( like our support ).

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Josey Wales:
<strong>hehe..should be Bozo </strong><hr></blockquote>

no, it actually is supposed to be bonzo. Forgot what its from, though.....................................

1) Actually, Canada has the highest standard of living and currently has the strongest economy in North America. Our life expectancy is second only to Japan - It is now in the 80s while the American average is still approximately 77-78 or so.

2) Is a massacre considered intervention? I don't think I need to bring up Vietnam.

3) How can you claim that the system works if the man who won the elections is not your current president? You can't, because it does not work. It all depends on who can give better head to corporate America.

4) !!!NEWSFLASH!!!!

AMERICA HAS PEOPLE DYING AND STARVING IN THE STREETS! It also has a horrible, for profit healthcare system that helps no one and no social security net.

5) Having a larger and better military does not make your country better, it simply means that your government decides that it is wiser to spend more money on things to kill people than cure and educate them.

Good grief.

I would have to say that we actually didn't get to where we are just because of things "falling into place"... I do believe that there are certain qualities in the American tapestry of history and peoples that make it unique... as well, of course, as its political freedoms and its constitution. It is unique and will continue to be for a long time. Other countries could learn from us about many things, such as racial tolerance and freedoms of speech and rights etc. I think that we got here because of these things but also because of a history that was very brutal and involved many things that could be seen as unjust, if you believe in justice rather than might is right. But not all things in this history are unjust and I am still proud to be American. . .I think it is a more profound respect for a civilization when one sees the reality of all of that civilization's sides, not some rosy as$ kitch hallmark card sloganeering patriotism.

Don't get me wrong when I make fun of the idealistically-impaired. I just recognize that jingoism is debilitating for productive intelligent thought.

And yes Bounoroti . . . doesn't digix sound familiar . . .I'll wager Naim is back . . . .

who are the "puppetmasters"? digix? Are you afraid to name them? or are you just playing some empty meaningless game?
(rather than believing empty meaningless conspiracies)

[quote]Originally posted by yogisfunhouse:
<strong>1) Canadians live longer than Americans and we make more money too!

2) Your country massaacred poor helpless Vietnamese!! You bastards!

3) President Bush stole your elections! you Should have Al Goe as your president, we liked him better anyhow...

4) !!!NEWSFLASH!!!!

AMERICA IS A THIRD WORLD TOILET WITH PEOPLE DYING EVERYWHERE. Oh and your health care is too expensive, that is why we drive down there when our system fails us and we need the best health care that money can buy. Oh and social security is going bankrupt, as if you did not know.

5) Make love, not war!! Wouldn't it be nice if a school had all the funding it needed and the military needed to have a bake sale to buy a bomber?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, well we are still the best nation in the world whether you like it or not. It does not mean we are perfect, but your jealousy of us will not change anything. You know you want to be the 51st state. At least your taxes would be lower then. :eek:

(Sorry for the thrashing of your post, it just rubbed me all the wrong ways at once. I will likely never do it again. )

[quote]Originally posted by yogisfunhouse:
<strong>1) Actually, Canada has the highest standard of living and currently has the strongest economy in North America. Our life expectancy is second only to Japan - It is now in the 80s while the American average is still approximately 77-78 or so.

2) Is a massacre considered intervention? I don't think I need to bring up Vietnam.

3) How can you claim that the system works if the man who won the elections is not your current president? You can't, because it does not work. It all depends on who can give better head to corporate America.

4) !!!NEWSFLASH!!!!

AMERICA HAS PEOPLE DYING AND STARVING IN THE STREETS! It also has a horrible, for profit healthcare system that helps no one and no social security net.

5) Having a larger and better military does not make your country better, it simply means that your government decides that it is wiser to spend more money on things to kill people than cure and educate them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually the man that won the election IS President. See, we have this thing called the ELECTORAL COLLEGE. The one with the most electoral votes wins. Bush won the electorate.

Actually, a strong military is very important for protecting a nation. This is exactly why many terrorists enter America through Canada. Canada has a weak military and law enforcement system, giving terrorists easy access to the US.

The American health care system is indeed screwed up. It's the fault of the damn HMO's and insurance companies. Our life expectancy is lower than yours cause the US is full of idiots that make bad decisions. Just watch Jerry Springer. If you got rid of the idiots, our average would be right up there with yours. &lt;---weak argument. As for those "dying in the streets," GET A JOB!!! My tax money shouldn't go for feeding some damn drunk!

[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

Yeah, well we are still the best nation in the world whether you like it or not. </strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>We all know there nations on earth, entire populations that hate the US. We can speculate that this is due to American dominance in economics, military, and culture to a certain extent. (I assume we can mostly agree on those reasons). We also know that some claim to hate us due to differences in religion. Having said that:

Dear nations that hate us:

If you resent us, I understand why. We have the best economy and overall standard of living in the whole world. You may say it's because we are imperalists. I think you are wrong. I think it is because we were the first modern democracy. We took a risk 225 years ago and, for the most part, it worked. We decided to let the people run our government, not the military. We decided to allow free speech. We decided to allow freedom of the press. We decided to allow government transparency. We tried out a new system of government, and as a result, we became the richest, most powerful nation in the world. Sure, we **** up too. We have corruption and crime just like you do, but we're working on it. Take our presedential election two years ago for example. Over 50 million people DID NOT get who they wanted for president. In fact, that happens almost every four years. We had controversy and debate. But did we have tanks rolling down the street? No. Did we have states leaving the union and forming their own tribal militias? No. You want to know why? Because with all its flaws, OUR SYSTEM OBVIOUSLY WORKS.

And now, after all we have been through, after we have defended nation after nation, intervened time and time again, literally saved the civilized world from evil facists, and defeated an oppressive superpower, you decide to hate us because we have what we have. You decide we are decadent, fat and lazy. You decide that we must be destroyed because we have abused our power and become an evil empire ourselves. You resent that we have troops on your soil and you have vowed to kill them, eventually. Never mind we saved your collective asses 11 years ago, from another mad man. Never mind that at all.

So I say this: If you hate that we have money, and power and might, and hate even more that you don't, why don't you try things our way for a while? Why not try modeling a constitution after ours? Why not hold free elections? I mean, ****, even YOU have to admit that what you are doing isn't working, right? You have people starving, dying in the streets. You have shitty, little pathetic militaries, the largest of which we could take out with a few 1980's era fighter/bombers.

Isn't it time to try something new? Isn't it worth a shot? It can't get worse than it is now, right? Just think, in the process you could even win world wide approval and aid for embracing civilized democracy. The way things are now you won't have any of those things. You'll just keep killing each other.

Why not try it out guys? How about laying off the US and trying what we did? You know what? We'll even help you set the whole thing up!!! All you have to do is come out say that you won't murder anymore civilian women and children, and that you want to to "try something new".

So, whadya think? Wanna try things OUR way...maybe just for few years to see what happens? No? Well....that's what I thought.


.

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

My statement to you.

Mate,

By totally missing the point you have made it wonderfully.

[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>

Oh, OK. I forgot how dumb I am. Thank you very much. Please enlighten us further with your superb academic snobbery.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Gladly.

See, you think people look down on the U.S for their superiority.

However,

You´re not superior.

No one will deny that the U.S isn´t the worst country in the world to live in.

However,

The majority of the people on this world hate arrogance. You say you´re a patriot but all you do is tell everyone how superior your country is. That´s not patriotism. If you were to tell me how you love democracy, freedom of speech, New York, your flag, the Grand Canyon, the Rockies etc. Now that would be patriotic.

However,

You tell me how much better your country is than mine. You tell me how much I should be like you and lose my own national pride.

And that, my friend, is what people look down on.

So all the things that you said is not why people poke fun at your country, it´s because you said them. That´s what I meant by you making the point by missing it.

If you want to know the reason for extremists flying planes in to your buildings. Look no further than your continued aid to Israel.

Trust me, the general population of the world does not hate or envy your country. I respect the United States, even if I don´t always agree with it´s policies, I respect them. But it´s Americans like you who confuse patriotism with blatant arrogance that make for the opportunity to have cheap shots at your country.

Finally,

I´m Dutch. We have a lower percentage of teenage pregnancy, poor people and drug addicts in our country than the U.S. Do you think the U.S should be more like the Netherlands in it´s policies regarding these issues?

It is trendy to be an American against America these days. Why try to make a difference when you can just bitch about it?

[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>It is trendy to be an American against America these days. Why try to make a difference when you can just bitch about it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think that´s a cheap comment.

People, Americans, sometimes don´t agree with what your government does. That doesn´t mean they don´t love their country. It actually means they love it enough to care when they see something they don´t agree with.

You can´t expect everyone´s nose to be in the same direction in a democracy. That´s the beauty of it. Everybody gets to disagree with each other so don´t get mad when someone says something you don´t like.

In stead of making the statement you just made why don´t you tell us what you find people shouldn´t complain about, why they shouldn´t and why it is the best way?

No Americans are against America. They would just like to see some changes.

I agree with you though that it´s a bit easy to say what is wrong without giving a proper alternative.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: macvasco ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
Patriotism is not being taught in our liberal schools, and is now considered to be "taboo" by many. The difference between you and I is that I LIKE being called a flag waiver. I think it is a good thing. I think being patriotic is a GOOD thing. I appreciate the nation I live in. I appreciate my freedoms and a nation that gives me the ability to speak and generally act as I want. I realize that not all places on earth are like this. We have problems, and I know that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

VERY well said. I experienced this kind of "liberal brainwashing" if you will, first hand. I couldn't stand my own teachers telling me that my country was completely wrong for going into Afghanistan!!! Damn hippies.

[quote]Originally posted by G4Dude:
<strong>

VERY well said. I experienced this kind of "liberal brainwashing" if you will, first hand. I couldn't stand my own teachers telling me that my country was completely wrong for going into Afghanistan!!! Damn hippies.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Patriotism is not something you teach.

Are you proud of your country because of what you like about it or are you proud of your country because of what someone tells you to be proud of?

Teaching Patriotism...Hitler Jugend anyone?

The US is a great country to live in but it is not perfect. there is a lot of problems like the ones you mentioned but you cannot compare it to a small country like the netherlands.

US population: 278,212,552
Netherlands population: 15,983,682

The US has 17 times the population to contend with.

BuonRotto,

Actually I think it's trendy to be a lets pat ourselves on the back ( without looking at things ) american these days. Especially among young people.

People from the post Regan years don't ask enough questions about their government. Hell a lot of young kids think the Civil War happened in the 1920's so how would they ever get a clear perspective? A lot of back patting and not enough fact finding.

All they hear is " well if it's american it must be good. "

I'm not here to cut down America but, to think we are angels or something is just a lot of hogwash.

pfflam,

Also I didn't say we got here just because things fell into place. I said " A lot of things just fell into place. Like a country with vast natural resources as an example.

I don't hate the U.S. but, I would like to encourage it's future history to be better.

Don't kid youselves our past holds many dark passages. I'd just like people to remember them in the hopes that they don't repeat them. To blindly pat yourself on the back and ignore them almost guarantees their return.

Learn from your mistakes.

Ps. G4Dude,

The electoral college is a joke and they have been talking about revising it ( or doing away with it all together ) for years now. That's both the republicans and the democrats. The last election was a prime example of why. A lot of american's votes didn't account for anything.