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My Statement to Nations That Hate the US - Page 2

post #41 of 512
[quote]Actually, a strong military is very important for protecting a nation. This is exactly why many terrorists enter America through Canada. Canada has a weak military and law enforcement system, giving terrorists easy access to the US.<hr></blockquote>

That is false. Your border security is your problem. Canada only has jurisdiction over people entering Canada, not leaving it. Of course the Canadian government assists the US in border security. Perhaps if you want more help, you can ask your government representatives to send us some money.

Canada has a weak military because of the small population, uncontested land, military alliances and limited foreign interests, and it has no bearing on terrorists or anyone else entering or leaving the country.

[quote]1. WHAT??? The strongest economy? Check out the CIA world factbook, and you'll see that Canada's economy doesn't even begin to compare to the US. Try facts next time. <hr></blockquote>

It shows stronger growth than yours, I believe, thanks in part to tight management of government finances (we run budget surpluses, not tremendous deficits) and new developments in natural resources.

[quote]4. Military: And if it wasn't for the US, you wouldn't be here right now. Literally. Flag waiving aside. That is a fact. <hr></blockquote>

That is speculation, actually.

The US has plenty of good points; you don't need to bash other countries to find them.
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post #42 of 512
In reference to the last post.

It's that attitude that tends to bash that I find offensive.

My family has been here for 200 years ( as long as anybody's ) so I couldn't get more American.

I do take pride in my country but, I'm not blind to it's short comings.

The attitude that infers that : American's are enlightened ( we can do no wrong ) and foreigners are barbaric is just stupid. I'm sure the Roman Empire felt the same way.

Enlightenment doesn't come from who's got the most guns or the most strength.

Enlightenment only comes from learning and wisdom. Retaining facts, experience, and the ability to collate them. Some of this might come from learning from your mistakes no matter how unpleasant.

It's true we are the big kids on the block but, with that comes a lot of responsibility. We must live up to that.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #43 of 512
[quote] It shows stronger growth than yours, I believe, thanks in part to tight management of government finances (we run budget surpluses, not tremendous deficits) and new developments in natural resources. <hr></blockquote>

It's true - Canada's economy grew by 6% last month and the American economy is still trying to get back on its feet after the downturn.

[quote] 4. Military: And if it wasn't for the US, you wouldn't be here right now. Literally. Flag waiving aside. That is a fact. <hr></blockquote>

How so? Give me an example. Or maybe it is because Canada whipped your ****in ass the last couple of times you tried to invade.

[quote] You are an idiot. <hr></blockquote>

By calling me an idiot and resorting to personal attacks, you have just proved that you cannot support your own arguments - why don't you attack my ideas not me.

It is not Canada's responsibility to stop terrorists from entering your borders. In fact, everytime I visit the States, it is easier to cross the border than it is to try and alcohol when you are a minor.

Back to electoral college - the system is flawed if more people voted for Gore but Bush won the election. I'm not saying that the system in Canada is perfect. In fact, it's absolutely terrible and doesn't work for **** . Just please stop blindly defending your own when you can see it doesn't work.
post #44 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by jimmac:
<strong>In reference to the last post.

It's that attitude that tends to bash that I find offensive.

My family has been here for 200 years ( as long as anybody's ) so I couldn't get more American.

I do take pride in my country but, I'm not blind to it's short comings.

The attitude that infers that : American's are enlightened ( we can do no wrong ) and foreigners are barbaric is just stupid. I'm sure the Roman Empire felt the same way.

Enlightenment doesn't come from who's got the most guns or the most strength.

Enlightenment only comes from learning and wisdom. Retaining facts, experience, and the ability to collate them. Some of this might come from learning from your mistakes no matter how unpleasant.

It's true we are the big kids on the block but, with that comes a lot of responsibility. We must live up to that.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jinmac, your wise is deeper than the one of Yoda. The good side of the Force have enlightened you. Live long and prosper
post #45 of 512
It's true that both of those fictions contain good morals to live up to in the real world.

Just look into the works of Joseph Cambell. 1904-1987 a mythologist and historian who's basic ideas revolved around the fact that most of the moral problems in our culture today are caused by the fact that there aren't enough myths and heros to aspire towards.

He was a great man who did a series for PBS( with Bill Moyers ), wrote several books on the subject and saw Star Wars as being hopeful. A piece of modern mythlogy with values to aspire towards.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #46 of 512
And after all that the US also has:

Coca Cola
McDonalds
Anna Nicole Smith
Glorified Gang violence
Religious fundamentalism
A country run by unelected Lawyers, Media and Big Business

Bit like here in the Uk really . . .
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post #47 of 512
macvasco(xander?):
&gt;
If you want to know the reason for extremists flying planes in to your buildings. Look no further than your continued aid to Israel.&lt;

The reason for the extremists flying planes into our buildings is because they are freaks. Subhuman freaks who tried as hard as they could to make sure thousands of innocent men, women, and children(many of whom weren't American) as possible would die a horrible death. There are other ways to disagree with a country's foreign policy. I am Jewish, and I don't agree with France's anti-Israeli policies, so I'm going to go over there and exterminate a few hundred civilians. How about Germany? Maybe the Netherlands? Now, would that seem like a rational response to Europe's policies? No, didn't think so. But you go right on rationalizing Arabs killing Americans. Go right ahead. Listen here-some day the cavalry may stop coming over to save the day. Some day we may just say the hell with it and to go fight your own battles. We spend billions on defense not only to save our necks but the necks of our 'friends' as well. Israel is a better and more faithful ally than any European country other than Britain. Go ahead-stay in your nice, secure country without having to spend billions on your own defense. You KNOW we are there if trouble should occur. You KNOW we would be the first country to call upon when Europe freezes in inaction and confusion. We are the glue that holds the democracies together because even though you protest in the streets against some of our policies, even though you fear our willingness to use military might, you KNOW we are the one country the world trusts to try to do the right thing.

And one last thing, even though I would think you would know this if you read any newspapers at all-Bin Laden ordered the terrorist attack because the US has military bases in Saudi Arabia, NOT because of Israel. And why shouldn't we continue to give aid to Israel? They are an ally, they are our friend, and even though we don't agree with everything their government does-name one country where we agree 100% with what they do. Do we stop giving aid to any of them? Of course not-Israel isn't our 51st State-they will do what they feel is in their best interests, just like any other country. When you're friends with America, you've got a friend for life.............................................. ......
post #48 of 512
Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>

If you resent us, I understand why. We have the best economy and overall standard of living in the whole world. </strong>

ROTFL! Best overall standard of living? America has one of the worst standards, especially considering the fact that America is the wealthiest country. The Division between rich and poor is huge. Tell someone from Compton that the have the best standard of living. Or Detroit. Or a Mexican emigre working on a pesticide ridden farm.[/QB]

<strong> We decided to let the people run our government, not the military. </strong>

So it was the will of the people to invade Korea? Vietnam? What about Panama? Cuba? Haiti? What about backing Both Saddam Hussein (sp?) and Osama with weapons and finances? Remember that? Does the name Oliver North ring a bell? Are you familiar with the term 'hegemony'?
<strong>We decided to allow free speech.</strong> Try burning an American Flag in protest.
<strong> We decided to allow freedom of the press. </strong>

<strong>We decided to allow government transparency. </strong> See above.

<strong>We tried out a new system of government</strong> Democracy was invented by the greeks over a thousand years ago.

<strong>Did we have states leaving the union and forming their own tribal militias? No. </strong>

The last time that happened, and it DID happen, America's North betrayed its own constitution and engaged in civil war, forcing the South to be apart of the US, regardless of the abuses it was sustaining from the North to spark this conflict. And no, the civil war was not about slavery.

<strong>And now, after all we have been through, after we have defended nation after nation, intervened time and time again, literally saved the civilized world from evil facists, and defeated an oppressive superpower</strong>

First, what you don't seem to realize is that America IS an opressive superpower. Second, saving who? Korea/Vietnam from themselves? Intervened... to protect oil interests? Quit making like America isn't greedy and selfish, like your evil bogeymen enemies are. Saving the world from evil fascists... please.You've been reading AOL-Time-Warner-Turner publications in your hegemonic country again, aren't you?
<strong>
You decide we are decadent, fat and lazy. [QB] It's off topic, but hey, America has the highest percentage of obesity, last I checked.

[QB] You decide that we must be destroyed because we have abused our power and become an evil empire ourselves.
</strong>

'You'? Who? those darkies, those Ay-rabs in the 'axis of evil'?

<strong>You have people starving, dying in the streets.</strong>
Unlike America? Wake up, rich white boy.

<strong> You have shitty, little pathetic militaries, the largest of which we could take out with a few 1980's era fighter/bombers.</strong>
And that is the proof that America is a better country? Because they spend billions more on bombs and tanks and helicopters?

I can't believe you have the audacity to posit that America has it 'all figured out' and that your solution to the problems of the world is for everyone to be more like America. Wake up and smell the coffee. Your **** stinks, too.
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post #49 of 512
Dead Member:
&gt;That is false. Your border security is your problem. Canada only has jurisdiction over people entering Canada, not leaving it. Of course the Canadian government assists the US in border security. Perhaps if you want more help, you can ask your government representatives to send us some money.&gt;

Canada has a notoriously lax refugee problem, allowing Arabs and Muslim terrorists to enter at will. Our system obviously has holes in it also and hopefully with both countries putting out the effort the problem will be resolved. However, Canada has plenty of money and its your problem also so you can pay for it.

Dead member:
&gt;Canada has a weak military because of the small population, uncontested land, military alliances and limited foreign interests, and it has no bearing on terrorists or anyone else entering or leaving the country.&lt;

Canada has a weak military primarily because you have the US as your neighbor and anyone that attacks you would be squished like a bug by us.

Dead Member:
&gt;It shows stronger growth than yours, I believe, thanks in part to tight management of government finances (we run budget surpluses, not tremendous deficits) and new developments in natural resources.&lt;

We run tremendous deficits primarily because of the responsibility we have taken upon ourselves to police the world. Add to that the millions of immigrants entering each year who require lots of social support, then throw upon that the boneheads we elect and there you have the deficits. Our economies are pretty similar otherwise.

Dead Member:
&gt;That is speculation, actually.
The US has plenty of good points; you don't need to bash other countries to find them.&lt;

I can't remember hearing any American, at any time in my life, bashing Canada of all places! A peaceful neighbor with most of the same values of us, nice people, and Molson Golden! I mean, come on, eh................................................ ..
post #50 of 512
The reason Canada has a small military is because:

1) We are the second largetst country in the world with a fraction of the population of many countries. Our population is 31 million - much, much smaller than England, France, Germany, etc... all of which have tiny land area.

2) With a small population we can't afford to pay for a huge military to defend our vast and free borders when we pay for socialized medicine, education, welfare and countless other social programs.

3) We know that the USA is to the south and that it is our closest ally - we do not have the need for a large military.

4) We do not go running around, illegally invading other countries all the time calling it a policing action or a 'humanitarian intervention'.
post #51 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by macvasco:
<strong>People, Americans, sometimes don´t agree with what your government does. That doesn´t mean they don´t love their country.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wasn't referring to critics of the government or the American, uh, predicament. There are lot of Americans who are ashamed of being American and jump on the "I hate America" bandwagon. Maybe they don't understand the difference between hating their government and hating their nation. Maybe they're just fair weather friends. But right now they don't like the nation they live in maybe because they think most other people don't either, or maybe because they take too much of their privileged lives for granted. They think this nation is everyone' enemy. Of course, they don't bother to actually do anything except for the occasional Tim McVeigh in which case the results are less than helpful. Maybe I give these folks too much credit for saying that they "think."
post #52 of 512
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by stimuli:
<strong>Originally posted by SDW2001:
[qb]

If you resent us, I understand why. We have the best economy and overall standard of living in the whole world. </strong>

ROTFL! Best overall standard of living? America has one of the worst standards, especially considering the fact that America is the wealthiest country. The Division between rich and poor is huge. Tell someone from Compton that the have the best standard of living. Or Detroit. Or a Mexican emigre working on a pesticide ridden farm.[/QB]

<strong> We decided to let the people run our government, not the military. </strong>

So it was the will of the people to invade Korea? Vietnam? What about Panama? Cuba? Haiti? What about backing Both Saddam Hussein (sp?) and Osama with weapons and finances? Remember that? Does the name Oliver North ring a bell? Are you familiar with the term 'hegemony'?
<strong>We decided to allow free speech.</strong> Try burning an American Flag in protest.
<strong> We decided to allow freedom of the press. </strong>

<strong>We decided to allow government transparency. </strong> See above.

<strong>We tried out a new system of government</strong> Democracy was invented by the greeks over a thousand years ago.

<strong>Did we have states leaving the union and forming their own tribal militias? No. </strong>

The last time that happened, and it DID happen, America's North betrayed its own constitution and engaged in civil war, forcing the South to be apart of the US, regardless of the abuses it was sustaining from the North to spark this conflict. And no, the civil war was not about slavery.

<strong>And now, after all we have been through, after we have defended nation after nation, intervened time and time again, literally saved the civilized world from evil facists, and defeated an oppressive superpower</strong>

First, what you don't seem to realize is that America IS an opressive superpower. Second, saving who? Korea/Vietnam from themselves? Intervened... to protect oil interests? Quit making like America isn't greedy and selfish, like your evil bogeymen enemies are. Saving the world from evil fascists... please.You've been reading AOL-Time-Warner-Turner publications in your hegemonic country again, aren't you?
<strong>
You decide we are decadent, fat and lazy. [QB] It's off topic, but hey, America has the highest percentage of obesity, last I checked.

[QB] You decide that we must be destroyed because we have abused our power and become an evil empire ourselves.
</strong>

'You'? Who? those darkies, those Ay-rabs in the 'axis of evil'?

<strong>You have people starving, dying in the streets.</strong>
Unlike America? Wake up, rich white boy.

<strong> You have shitty, little pathetic militaries, the largest of which we could take out with a few 1980's era fighter/bombers.</strong>
And that is the proof that America is a better country? Because they spend billions more on bombs and tanks and helicopters?

I can't believe you have the audacity to posit that America has it 'all figured out' and that your solution to the problems of the world is for everyone to be more like America. Wake up and smell the coffee. Your **** stinks, too.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>


There are so many problems with this post I almost don't know where to start. but here goes:

1. I agree we have many poor. But, the overall standard of living, especially for the middle-middle class, is much higher. We do have poor immigrants and decaying inner cities, granted. But, the size and scope our middle class is much greater than in other nations. In particular, our upper middle class (say, those making 70-200,000 a year) is huge when compared to other nations.

2. Military: Our elected leaders made those decisions. The legislative and executive branches control the military. Many other nations have military dictatorships. You forget we do not live in a direct democracy; we live in a republic.

3. Flag burning is legal. If someone kicks your ass for it, that's not my problem. Sue them....you'd win.

4. Democracy: We were, indeed, the first MODERN democracy. Read my original post. That system had not been tried since before the birth of Chirst. I'd say that qualifies as "first modern".

5. [quote]The last time that happened, and it DID happen, America's North betrayed its own constitution and engaged in civil war, forcing the South to be apart of the US, regardless of the abuses it was sustaining from the North to spark this conflict. <hr></blockquote>

-----What? the NORTH betrayed the constitution? What an interesting version of history! My friend, it was the SOUTH who tried to secede from the Union, which the Northern, Union states prevented. THE SOUTHERN STATES were the ones who were acting improperly.

[quote]And no, the civil war was not about slavery. <hr></blockquote>

WOW! Thanks for clearing that up! You must have done really well in "American History I" last marking period!

6. I disagree that we are oppressive. We allow government criticism, disagreement, protest, freedom of the press, religion etc. We have intervened to protect national security, which oil interests are a part of.....I'll give you that.

7. Reasonable speculation: If the US did not intervene in WWII, Germany very well may have taken all of Europe, Asia and Africa. France, Poland, Norway and many others had fallen, and Britain was within a year or so of speaking German for good. More reasonable speculation: If the US did not match the Soviet Union "blow for blow" during the cold war, we might all be speaking Russian right now.

8. Ted Turner happens to be one of the most liberal individuals on the planet.

9. "You" refers to "nations that hate us"....as the topic of the thread indicates. It is speculative. I thought that much was obvious.

10. I'm a middle class person, actually. Though, I am white. We don't have nearly the starvation that the following countries do: Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Russia and North Korea.....just to name a few.

11. Military again: You are the one who missed the point here. Many of these nations crave power. There is no question they don't have it. I am saying that part of the reason is they do not have economies that can support large militaries. This is a direct result of their oppressive regimes not allowing capitalism. Isn't there an argument that trying our system is "worth a shot", so to speak?

And finally, I never said we "have it all figured out". I said that some of the nations that hate us should, perhaps, consider trying things our way, because what they are doing obviously isn't working.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
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post #53 of 512
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by macvasco:
<strong>

Gladly.

See, you think people look down on the U.S for their superiority.

However,

You´re not superior.

No one will deny that the U.S isn´t the worst country in the world to live in.

However,

The majority of the people on this world hate arrogance. You say you´re a patriot but all you do is tell everyone how superior your country is. That´s not patriotism. If you were to tell me how you love democracy, freedom of speech, New York, your flag, the Grand Canyon, the Rockies etc. Now that would be patriotic.

However,

You tell me how much better your country is than mine. You tell me how much I should be like you and lose my own national pride.

And that, my friend, is what people look down on.

So all the things that you said is not why people poke fun at your country, it´s because you said them. That´s what I meant by you making the point by missing it.

If you want to know the reason for extremists flying planes in to your buildings. Look no further than your continued aid to Israel.

Trust me, the general population of the world does not hate or envy your country. I respect the United States, even if I don´t always agree with it´s policies, I respect them. But it´s Americans like you who confuse patriotism with blatant arrogance that make for the opportunity to have cheap shots at your country.

Finally,

I´m Dutch. We have a lower percentage of teenage pregnancy, poor people and drug addicts in our country than the U.S. Do you think the U.S should be more like the Netherlands in it´s policies regarding these issues?</strong><hr></blockquote>


1. Who the hell is talking about your country? I am talking about nations that have oppresive military regimes without any personal or religious freedoms. I did say I think we are the "best" nation. I stand firm on that. There is no other place in the world I'd rather live. That's just my opinion.

2. I do love democracy, freedom of speech, New York, the grand canyon, etc. That IS WHY I love America.

3. I never said you should lose your national pride. Not once.

4. The Israel comment was absurd. No one has a right to hijack a jetliner and plunge it into a building. I don't care what the reason is.
If you had made that comment to my face, I would seriously consider punching you in the mouth.

5. [quote]Trust me, the general population of the world does not hate or envy your country. <hr></blockquote>

----Wrong. Europe might not. Islamic extremeists and those under their influence might not. But, tell me: Why do MILLIONS of Mexicans, Cubans, and other ethnic groups risk their lives trying to get here each year? Why was there mass immigration to the US in the late 1800's and early 1900's? Answer: Because those people knew there may be a better life here, or at least a chance for it. Also, tell me why Boris Yeltsin, on his first trip to the US, walked into a supermarket, saw all the glistening produce and aisles of food, and almost fell to his knees....crying out "what have they done to mother Russia"? Tell me he didn't envy the US and I'll eat my hat. And tell me there aren't a bunch of entire nations out there that truly, deeply hate America and its power and I'll eat another.

Finally,

[quote]Do you think the U.S should be more like the Netherlands in it´s policies regarding these issues?[ <hr></blockquote>

Perhaps....it depends on the policy.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
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post #54 of 512
You must have flunked US history 101 SDW...

The US Civil War was not just caused by Slavery - how about huge economic disparities between the north and the south, cultural differences and yes, Slavery, but that was really a minor issue. Why did Lincoln sigh the proclamation? Because it was hoped for that if the slaves in the South got word of it, they would rebel against their masters and help the North's cause from deep within the South - It had nothing to do with morals or ethics.

Also SDW, when was the last time you tried to peacefully protest at a G8, IMF/World Bank, WTO meeting? Isn't everyone given the basic human rights to freedom of peaceful assembly and protection from arrest without cause? Well, just try going to an anti-globalization protest. You will see that the protests are 100% peaceful before the police agitators come in and the bust heads and haul everyone off to jail. I've been to many.

Freedom of the press? Right.... and you actually believe that? The people who control the press are the exact same people who control the government... Corporate America. Flip through all of the stations on TV and you will see it is all the same right-wing tripe. There is no mainstream alternative viewpoint. There is no one to stand up for the environment or the poor. The press is simply a way of large, very rich corporations to contros peoples opinions and wallets.
post #55 of 512
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by yogisfunhouse:
<strong>You must have flunked US history 101 SDW...

The US Civil War was not just caused by Slavery - how about huge economic disparities between the north and the south, cultural differences and yes, Slavery, but that was really a minor issue. Why did Lincoln sigh the proclamation? Because it was hoped for that if the slaves in the South got word of it, they would rebel against their masters and help the North's cause from deep within the South - It had nothing to do with morals or ethics.

Also SDW, when was the last time you tried to peacefully protest at a G8, IMF/World Bank, WTO meeting? Isn't everyone given the basic human rights to freedom of peaceful assembly and protection from arrest without cause? Well, just try going to an anti-globalization protest. You will see that the protests are 100% peaceful before the police agitators come in and the bust heads and haul everyone off to jail. I've been to many.

Freedom of the press? Right.... and you actually believe that? The people who control the press are the exact same people who control the government... Corporate America. Flip through all of the stations on TV and you will see it is all the same right-wing tripe. There is no mainstream alternative viewpoint. There is no one to stand up for the environment or the poor. The press is simply a way of large, very rich corporations to contros peoples opinions and wallets.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. I did quite well in history.

WHEN DID I EVER SAY THE CIVIL WAR WAS ONLY ABOUT SLAVERY?????? NEVER!!!! And it had at least SOMETHING to do with morals and ethics.

2. I wouldn't protest it because, IMO, those organizations HELP the world. Police agitators? BWHAHAHAHA. Those organizations promote free trade and loans to very poor nations, despite you liberal, idiotic viepoint on them.

3. We DO have freedom of the press. Believe me, I DO understand that corporations control the news media. I understand that all too well. My point is that our government does have a state run press like, say, Saudi Arabia.
And although I agree corporations do have much control of our government, we still have some.

4. [quote]Flip through all of the stations on TV and you will see it is all the same right-wing tripe. There is no mainstream alternative viewpoint. There is no one to stand up for the environment or the poor. The press is simply a way of large, very rich corporations to contros peoples opinions and wallets. <hr></blockquote>

---I had to post that last part again so I could continue laughing harder. The media in this nation is well known to be a criminal LIBERAL MACHINE. Ted Turner, Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, The New York Times.....the list goes on and on. No one standing up for the environment? WTF? You probably don't even have the facts on the environment, because you, like many others, have been brainwashed by the criminal liberal media.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
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post #56 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>

---I had to post that last part again so I could continue laughing harder. The media in this nation is well known to be a criminal LIBERAL MACHINE. Ted Turner, Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, The New York Times.....the list goes on and on. No one standing up for the environment? WTF? You probably don't even have the facts on the environment, because you, like many others, have been brainwashed by the criminal liberal media.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Name Calling:
"The Criminal Liberal Media" (The Media)

As long as we're calling each other names, let's get the facts right:
"****ING ultra-right wing conservative" (SDW2001 name)
post #57 of 512
It's amazing how everything we say online turns into black vs white, in several senses of that term apparently. It's amazing how a post directed at those who hate America turned into a Canada vs. US, the issue of slavery in our Civil War,* Israel vs. Palestine once again, percentage growth of gross domestic product, yadda, yadda. I'm waiting for a comparison of anything here to Hitler and the Nazis so this thread can then fizzle out. It's certainly a belligerent post, but try to stay focused.

*The part about the North being unconstitutional was humorous by the way, and slavery was a factor in the war, but not necessarily a major one. To turn that issue on its head you'd see that abolitionists forced the issue of northern "free" states and southern ones, all of this being tied to their economies, so it's not the slave issue directly, but I don't expect any of this to be understood.
post #58 of 512
Conservatism's allure is that it keeps the rich rich and the poor poor. While they strive mightily to get babies into this world, they do **** for them once they're here. It seems that Republicans get them in, and Democrats take care of them.
post #59 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by yogisfunhouse:
<strong>
Freedom of the press? Right.... and you actually believe that? The people who control the press are the exact same people who control the government... Corporate America. Flip through all of the stations on TV and you will see it is all the same right-wing tripe. There is no mainstream alternative viewpoint. There is no one to stand up for the environment or the poor.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is the funniest thing I've read in quite a while. Have you ever watched American TV???? It is common knowledge that the major networks here are very liberal. Even my "tree hugger" friends if you will, were commenting just yesterday how they thought the media should be more moderate and not so on the left, as to let people see an unbaised news telling. Where ever you got your information from, you are sorely mistaken.
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post #60 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by sjpsu:
<strong>Conservatism's allure is that it keeps the rich rich and the poor poor. While they strive mightily to get babies into this world, they do **** for them once they're here. It seems that Republicans get them in, and Democrats take care of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bullshit. Conservatives just think that it's not their job to take care of some teens 5th kid. It's their problem. I don't want my money going to pay for somebody else's healthcare when it could be paying for mine.
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post #61 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by G4Dude:
<strong>

Bullshit. Conservatives just think that it's not their job to take care of some teens 5th kid. It's their problem. I don't want my money going to pay for somebody else's healthcare when it could be paying for mine.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Exactly. Democrats know that people wouldn't help the less-fortunate if not for their social programs such as welfare, social security, and medicare. THIS is where conservative allure lies- the ability to look out for only one's self rather than one's poor neighbor. Money- basically.
post #62 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by sjpsu:
<strong>


Exactly. Democrats know that people wouldn't help the less-fortunate if not for their social programs such as welfare, social security, and medicare. THIS is where conservative allure lies- the ability to look out for only one's self rather than one's poor neighbor. Money- basically.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, here's where our difference lies. I don't think there is anything wrong with caring about myself and telling someone else to "get a job." You feel a responsability for all people that you are not required to feel. And I respect people that think like that but I will never be one of them.
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post #63 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by G4Dude:
<strong>
Ok, here's where our difference lies. I don't think there is anything wrong with caring about myself and telling someone else to "get a job." You feel a responsability for all people that you are not required to feel. And I respect people that think like that but I will never be one of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair Enough.

post #64 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>The US is a great country to live in but it is not perfect. there is a lot of problems like the ones you mentioned but you cannot compare it to a small country like the netherlands.

US population: 278,212,552
Netherlands population: 15,983,682

The US has 17 times the population to contend with.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The U.S is also far bigger than the Netherlands which leaves it with more room for industry. It has more natural resources as well.

Anyway, I said percentagewise. Percentages have nothing to do with the size of the population.
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
post #65 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>macvasco(xander?):
&gt;
If you want to know the reason for extremists flying planes in to your buildings. Look no further than your continued aid to Israel.&lt;

The reason for the extremists flying planes into our buildings is because they are freaks. Subhuman freaks who tried as hard as they could to make sure thousands of innocent men, women, and children(many of whom weren't American) as possible would die a horrible death. There are other ways to disagree with a country's foreign policy. I am Jewish, and I don't agree with France's anti-Israeli policies, so I'm going to go over there and exterminate a few hundred civilians. How about Germany? Maybe the Netherlands? Now, would that seem like a rational response to Europe's policies? No, didn't think so. But you go right on rationalizing Arabs killing Americans. Go right ahead. Listen here-some day the cavalry may stop coming over to save the day. Some day we may just say the hell with it and to go fight your own battles. We spend billions on defense not only to save our necks but the necks of our 'friends' as well. Israel is a better and more faithful ally than any European country other than Britain. Go ahead-stay in your nice, secure country without having to spend billions on your own defense. You KNOW we are there if trouble should occur. You KNOW we would be the first country to call upon when Europe freezes in inaction and confusion. We are the glue that holds the democracies together because even though you protest in the streets against some of our policies, even though you fear our willingness to use military might, you KNOW we are the one country the world trusts to try to do the right thing.

And one last thing, even though I would think you would know this if you read any newspapers at all-Bin Laden ordered the terrorist attack because the US has military bases in Saudi Arabia, NOT because of Israel. And why shouldn't we continue to give aid to Israel? They are an ally, they are our friend, and even though we don't agree with everything their government does-name one country where we agree 100% with what they do. Do we stop giving aid to any of them? Of course not-Israel isn't our 51st State-they will do what they feel is in their best interests, just like any other country. When you're friends with America, you've got a friend for life.............................................. ......</strong><hr></blockquote>

So, basically, what you´re implying is that these people one day woke up, decided to fly a plane in to a building and made up a reason for doing so?

I never said anything about America being right or wrong for financially and militarily supporting Israel. I said that the reason why you´re a target for Muslim extremists is your continued aid to Israel. On top of your continued military presence in other areas of the Middle East.

I´m sorry but I find it quite naive that you think that a country can do these things and get away with it. Intervention always brings the risk of becoming a target. So don´t moan when someone shoots at the target.

I also never said Muslim extremists are right to fly planes in to buildings nor am I making up excuses. I gave you the reason. Which has nothing to do with your own economy or the way you run your country.

You´re not a target for what you do in your country, you´re a target for what you do in the country of others. Right or wrong.

PS. Before you start telling people how hopeless they would be without the U.S I would consider the fact that without European expansionism there would be no U.S

On top of that, yes a lot of European countries can save on their military because the U.S spends a lot on it. Don´t forget though that during the cold war we were acting as a buffer for the U.S. Do you really think WWIII would have been fought in your country? Central Europe, that´s where. I never saw Europeans going around boasting about that to the U.S.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: macvasco ]</p>
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
post #66 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
1. Who the hell is talking about your country? I am talking about nations that have oppresive military regimes without any personal or religious freedoms. I did say I think we are the "best" nation. I stand firm on that. There is no other place in the world I'd rather live. That's just my opinion.

2. I do love democracy, freedom of speech, New York, the grand canyon, etc. That IS WHY I love America.

3. I never said you should lose your national pride. Not once.

4. The Israel comment was absurd. No one has a right to hijack a jetliner and plunge it into a building. I don't care what the reason is.
If you had made that comment to my face, I would seriously consider punching you in the mouth.

5.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trust me, the general population of the world does not hate or envy your country.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----Wrong. Europe might not. Islamic extremeists and those under their influence might not. But, tell me: Why do MILLIONS of Mexicans, Cubans, and other ethnic groups risk their lives trying to get here each year? Why was there mass immigration to the US in the late 1800's and early 1900's? Answer: Because those people knew there may be a better life here, or at least a chance for it. Also, tell me why Boris Yeltsin, on his first trip to the US, walked into a supermarket, saw all the glistening produce and aisles of food, and almost fell to his knees....crying out "what have they done to mother Russia"? Tell me he didn't envy the US and I'll eat my hat. And tell me there aren't a bunch of entire nations out there that truly, deeply hate America and its power and I'll eat another.

Finally,


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think the U.S should be more like the Netherlands in it´s policies regarding these issues?[
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps....it depends on the policy.


Perhaps....it depends on the policy.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

ad1. Exactly. When you say you are the best nation it does involve my country as well.

ad2. Well done, now that´s patriotic.

ad3. You said that maybe other countries should try it your way. That reeks, nay stinks, of arrogance. Maybe you should not make comments like that.

ad4. Like I said just now, I never said I agree with the reason. It is the reason. That´s a fact.

You´re punching in the face comment just shows that your anger keeps you from having a discussion on a high level. You should be able to defend your convictions without having to resort to violence. Just like the Arabs and the Israelis should. (I admit that sounds a bit belittling but I´ll stand by it)

ad5. There is mass imigration to the Netherlands, Germany and other countries as well. So how are you the best? How are you better than these other countries that have exactly the same?

By the way, I really don´t find someone else´s misfortune something you should pride yourself for not having.

I will tell you once again that there are no nations or entire countries that hate the U.S. There may be governments/regimes that do and there are individuals that do. But not for it´s might and money. For the way it uses that might against these countries and for the way it doesn´t share that wealth with everyone.

Would you like fries with that hat?
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish
the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not
been sufficient to win freedom, then our children
will win it by a better deed.
Pádraig Pearse

...
Reply
post #67 of 512
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by macvasco:
<strong>

ad1. Exactly. When you say you are the best nation it does involve my country as well.

ad2. Well done, now that´s patriotic.

ad3. You said that maybe other countries should try it your way. That reeks, nay stinks, of arrogance. Maybe you should not make comments like that.

ad4. Like I said just now, I never said I agree with the reason. It is the reason. That´s a fact.

You´re punching in the face comment just shows that your anger keeps you from having a discussion on a high level. You should be able to defend your convictions without having to resort to violence. Just like the Arabs and the Israelis should. (I admit that sounds a bit belittling but I´ll stand by it)

ad5. There is mass imigration to the Netherlands, Germany and other countries as well. So how are you the best? How are you better than these other countries that have exactly the same?

By the way, I really don´t find someone else´s misfortune something you should pride yourself for not having.

I will tell you once again that there are no nations or entire countries that hate the U.S. There may be governments/regimes that do and there are individuals that do. But not for it´s might and money. For the way it uses that might against these countries and for the way it doesn´t share that wealth with everyone.

Would you like fries with that hat?</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. Sorry you take offense to my "best" nation comment. That is just the way I feel.

2. OK....

3. What's wrong with suggesting that other countries try it our way? It has to be better than what some of them are doing now. Don't you think? I didn't say "try it Great Britain's way", because we truly were the first modern democracy. It wasn't our idea, but we are the first modern implementation of it. That's why I said "our way". Believe it or not, the Dutch, French, British, etc were not the first modern democracies.

4. Fair enough.

5. Unlike some, my anger makes me more committed to winning an argument. I don't apologize for feeling that strongly. Anyone who says things like "you can't expect to get away with it" just shows the huge anti-semitic undercurrent present in the world. How dare we support a democracy surrounded by nations that truly DO hate it? (I assume even you agree that Israel is surrounded by nations that hate it). Can't get away with it? What is there to get away with? And I have a right to be pissed off about 3,000 Americans being murdered in cold blood.

6. We disagree about the hatred and/or envy of the US. Perhaps less envy than hatred......what do you base your assertion on? You are honestly telling me some governments don't envy and/or hate the US for their power and might? Give me a break.

7. Share the wealth? . This is truly the most unreasonable, ultra-liberal thing you have said. We are the single largest provider of foreign aid in the world.

And don't get me started on "share the wealth". The reasons I am conservative are pretty simple: I believe in limited government, local control, lower taxes, that religion DOES have some place in public places, that lowering taxes on corporations, to an extent, DOES help the overall economy, that lower taxes eventually create more revenue and growth, that some types of abortion are murder, and that there is a clear difference in most cases between right and wrong. I also don't subscribe to affirmative action, more social programs and so forth.

It is my belief that liberalism doesn't work; especially extreme liberalism (though obviously extreme conservatism, i.e. facisim, doesn't either). Every great "share the wealth" program in history has failed. The Great Society was a distaster. The only successful liberal programs came out of the Great Depression, and that was a very different time.

And please folks, don't paint conservatism as a "me" concept. I supoort it because I truly believe it works better. I give to charity, support a child through Christian Children's Fund, and try to help others. But, I don't believe I should pay 50-60% of my income to a government agency, which is what I do now by the time I'm done. And I truly believe that too many social programs create sloth, and that "rewarding failure and punishing success" creates more failure.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
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post #68 of 512
Thread Starter 
Economic facts from CIA world fact book:

"The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $36,200."

"GDPtpurchasing power parity - $9.963 trillion (2000 est.) "

GDP - real growth ratet5% (2000 est.)

GDP - per capitatpurchasing power parity - $36,200 (2000 est.)

Canada:

" Real rates of growth have averaged nearly 3.0% since 1993"

GDPtpurchasing power parity - $774.7 billion (2000 est.)

GDP - real growth ratet4.3% (2000 est.)

GDP - per capitatpurchasing power parity - $24,800 (2000 est.)


Though Canada is certainly smaller population-wise and does have a highly advanced economy. This kind of ends the debate on this point, no?
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post #69 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by digix:
<strong>The goverment of the United States of America, like any other offical goverments in the world, are merely just puppets controlled by the same puppeter.

This puppeter, created, divided, and ended a goverment as he wish.

Puppets are played to fight against other puppets, and in the same time some puppets are played to make peace with other puppets.

People who aren't in the know, thought that the puppets are acting on their own.

Imagine a puppet beat you up regulary, at some point, you will harbor an animosity toward the puppet. But unknown to you, the puppet is merely just controlled by the puppeter. Even if you destroyed the puppet, the puppeter will just use another puppet to fool you, and even worse, you too can be played by the puppeter like a puppet.

Folks... Our true enemy is currently hiding and using puppets so that we will fight against each other.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is my third day resisting to comment on this puppetry.
If we were to puppeting puppet this puppetry, then the whole puppetry will be so puppeted!
That is not to mention that puppetation these days is so puppetaited that you can not puppeting puppetically puppet a puppet from a puppet! I can not inpuppet such dispuppeted depuppetation based on the fact that there is no puppetess. Now how can you puppet a puppet by a puppeter without a puppeting puppetess?

post #70 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>We are the single largest provider of foreign aid in the world. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Woopedidooo.

US: $6.9 billion out of $9.963 trillion (GDP) = 0,07%. Population 278,058,881

Denmark: $1.63 billion out of $136.2 billion (GDP) = 1,2% (last year it was actually 1,9%). Population 5,352,815

Norway: $1.4 billion out of $124.1 billion (GDP) = 1,1%. Population 4,503,440

Nederlands: $3.5 billion out of $388.4 billion (GDP) = 0,9%. Population 15,981,472

Sweden: $1.7 billion out of $197 billion (GDP) = 0,8%. Population 8,875,053

Before we add the 2% to the Denmarks numbers for "East-Help" (for enviromental purposes in former eastern europe) and before we substract US help to Israel this is what we get

Denmark-Norway-Sweden-Nederlands:

$8.23 billion in foreign aid out of a GDP of $845.7 billion equals 0.97% of a population of 34.712.780

US

$6.9 billion in foreign aid out of a GDP of $9.963 trillion equals = 0,07%. of a population of 278,058,881

In other words: You (US) are eight times more people making almost 12 times as much but are giving 16% less than we are.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #71 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Woopedidooo.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> you're great.
post #72 of 512
[quote]This kind of ends the debate on this point, no?<hr></blockquote>

About stronger growth? For 2000. yogisfunhouse is obviously dead wrong about the overall strength of the economies and I doubt that Canada surpasses the US in growth through history, either. Canada has always had a more conservative economy than the US.
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post #73 of 512
SDW..

of course you want to remain in America... you are American. Just be assured that most people from other countries feel the way you do... meaning that they too want you to remain in America

and [quote] What's wrong with suggesting that other countries try it our way? <hr></blockquote>
what's wrong is not necessarily that democracy wouldn't be good where it doesn't exist, what's wrong is the simplistic attitude that is an idealistically ignorant excuse for pushing our way of life onto others and saying that we are right. One person's diet might make another person sick.

Its especially exhibited by the attitude of "best" . . . what the hell does that mean . . the "best"? Its as if we are fans of some high school football game rooting for the school colors.

And the real appeal of conservatism is that it is, in most aspects, simplistic. It renders all the worlds complexities to simple slogans such as "free trade" (as if the American (world bank, IMF) crow-bar actions to the world's markets were ever "free" of coercion <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> ) Conservatism, as a self-identity, is grasped onto because it pretends that all the details don't exist... they all dissapear under the blinding light of "common sense". A common sense that is really just a scant and cursory missreading of real historical complexities... if any historical understanding exists at all(SDW)) Conservatism believes in the "literal reading is all that is needed" approach... which simplifies by denying the complexity of multiple perspectives in a very complex world.
or to quote you SDW
[quote] The reasons I am conservative are pretty simple <hr></blockquote>..shouldn't it read simplistic.

and the worst simplification on the part of self-described conservatives is the way they characterize liberals . .. .
(don't get me wrong, self-described liberals also sinplify as a matter of course . .. .)

also of note for its stupidity, is the whole idea that a huge corporate industry, which thrives on the advertizing money from the other richest of corporations would not be for its own interests.. interests: which are to maximize their profits ; in other words, the media is by no means "liberal" unless by that you mean that they are mainstream . . . .
which is silly to equate mainstream with anything left . . ..
in the eighties, the right moved the parameters of the debate so far to the right that what is now called liberal by the frothy mouthed masses was once considered squarely conservative . . . this has closed down perceptual options for many people now the options are completely defined by the pundits, meaning: the cadre of conservative celebrity hosts, Limbaugh et al . . . who are just the tip of the corporate media, and who pretend to be up against some none existent "liberal media"

Anyway, the media is what it is . . . a corporate phenomena whose content is conditioned by the need to make money . . . meaningthat its content (other than advertizing) tries to appeal to the largest proportion of viewers... the lowest common denominator (which is why Limbaugh was so popular) meaning it too simplifies in order to sell.

But the real message of the medium of television isn't the content of any of the shows on TV but is rather two things:
1. advertizing itself: meaning... not just the content of adds but the constant exposure of individuals to the implied imparative of "BUY THIS NOW" after all the ratio of time for ads versus televisions shows is almost one -one.
and
2. (as the Canadian McLuhan stated) the message is the media itself. meaning that the impact of TV is not so much its content but how it changes audience's perceptions of space and time and the world of objects. This takes place because TV errases space and conditions our perceptions of time

(consider the rise of technology and how it is not only changing the west, which has gone through industrialism and post industrialism and had its cataclismic reactions to these changes (WW1 and WW2)but is simultaneously changing the mid-east, which is at the same time as feeling electronic technological change but also going through its versions of industrial and post-industrial change . . . . no wonder its in such turmoil . . . we had WWars to deal with the shock... what will they do?)

Anyway, I hate to bring this discussion into the continual Right-vs-left debate which is so trite, and predescribed for us ... but I had to point out some perpetual simplisms

.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #74 of 512
And they wonder if aliens are out there why don't they show themselves and come and visit.

One thing in the history of the world has always lead to another. Saying one country is responsible for how things have turned out is just monumentally STUPID.

Humans really need to get with the program if they are going to survive. We aren't just americans, canadians, british, or french. We are more importantly from this world. You know, the only place we can live on for now.

When you go back to this " we're better than you " crap you harken back to a time when men stood on the battle field and beat their sheilds with their swords to intimidate the other tribe.

What's wrong with this incredibly primative way of thinking is that we aren't there in those times any more. That kind of thinking can ( now ) only lead to our own self destruction. We are human beings first.

I can see if there are aliens out there capable of coming here they would also be capable of observing us. We can't even live together like adults on our own little planet. Why would they want to have anything to do with us?

For those dunderheads who might want to make fun of this because I used aliens as an example......it's just a way to present an objective viewpoint.

You can sit back and say the worlds ills are because of this group or that. What you have presented here in microcosm is a very accurate picture of what's really wrong. It's us. We really need to do something about that.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #75 of 512
[quote]-----What? the NORTH betrayed the constitution? What an interesting version of history! My friend, it was the SOUTH who tried to secede from the Union, which the Northern, Union states prevented. THE SOUTHERN STATES were the ones who were acting improperly. <hr></blockquote>

This is steering off topic, but the right to secede was guaranteed in the constitution. The South had the right to Succeed.
The North acted illegally. Check your history books.
No, the bazaar cannot satisfy users. Neither can the cathedral. Nothing can satisfy users, because software is written to enable rather than satisfy, and because most users are mewling malcontents...
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No, the bazaar cannot satisfy users. Neither can the cathedral. Nothing can satisfy users, because software is written to enable rather than satisfy, and because most users are mewling malcontents...
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post #76 of 512
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>SDW..

of course you want to remain in America... you are American. Just be assured that most people from other countries feel the way you do... meaning that they too want you to remain in America

and ..shouldn't it read simplistic.

and the worst simplification on the part of self-described conservatives is the way they characterize liberals . .. .
(don't get me wrong, self-described liberals also sinplify as a matter of course . .. .)

also of note for its stupidity, is the whole idea that a huge corporate industry, which thrives on the advertizing money from the other richest of corporations would not be for its own interests.. interests: which are to maximize their profits ; in other words, the media is by no means "liberal" unless by that you mean that they are mainstream . . . .
which is silly to equate mainstream with anything left . . ..
in the eighties, the right moved the parameters of the debate so far to the right that what is now called liberal by the frothy mouthed masses was once considered squarely conservative . . . this has closed down perceptual options for many people now the options are completely defined by the pundits, meaning: the cadre of conservative celebrity hosts, Limbaugh et al . . . who are just the tip of the corporate media, and who pretend to be up against some none existent "liberal media"

Anyway, the media is what it is . . . a corporate phenomena whose content is conditioned by the need to make money . . . meaningthat its content (other than advertizing) tries to appeal to the largest proportion of viewers... the lowest common denominator (which is why Limbaugh was so popular) meaning it too simplifies in order to sell.

But the real message of the medium of television isn't the content of any of the shows on TV but is rather two things:
1. advertizing itself: meaning... not just the content of adds but the constant exposure of individuals to the implied imparative of "BUY THIS NOW" after all the ratio of time for ads versus televisions shows is almost one -one.
and
2. (as the Canadian McLuhan stated) the message is the media itself. meaning that the impact of TV is not so much its content but how it changes audience's perceptions of space and time and the world of objects. This takes place because TV errases space and conditions our perceptions of time

(consider the rise of technology and how it is not only changing the west, which has gone through industrialism and post industrialism and had its cataclismic reactions to these changes (WW1 and WW2)but is simultaneously changing the mid-east, which is at the same time as feeling electronic technological change but also going through its versions of industrial and post-industrial change . . . . no wonder its in such turmoil . . . we had WWars to deal with the shock... what will they do?)

Anyway, I hate to bring this discussion into the continual Right-vs-left debate which is so trite, and predescribed for us ... but I had to point out some perpetual simplisms

.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

But there are a lot of things that shake down to the really simple, whether you choose to admit that or not. One of the reasons that MY world-view is filled with simple choices is that principles are involved. One choice violates my principles and the other does not -- simple. It's much easier to declare that decisions are too complex and then never make them; no judgement and therefore no responsibility.

I'd argue that many topics come down to simple, binary choices if they're analyzed correctly. Would you want to drive across a bridge built by someone who didn't understand the fundamental (read: simple) nature of mechanics? (Simple: it stands OR it falls) Would you want a doctor who didn't understand the fundamentals of his discipline? (Simple: you live OR you die). At any point in time, these individuals have to exercise judgement and that depends upon simple choices. Let's hope those choices are made using and understanding of principles.

It's amazing, maybe, but the smartest folks I've ever met, throughout my life, thought in terms of principles as well. Most of them are very successful because of it.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: finboy ]</p>
Never had ONE lesson.
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Never had ONE lesson.
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post #77 of 512
macvasco:
&gt;So, basically, what you´re implying is that these people one day woke up, decided to fly a plane in to a building and made up a reason for doing so?
I never said anything about America being right or wrong for financially and militarily supporting Israel. I said that the reason why you´re a target for Muslim extremists is your continued aid to Israel. On top of your continued military presence in other areas of the Middle East.&lt;

There is no valid reason to be a 'target'. We can support any country we please and if there is a disagreement about it, then go to the UN. Muslim extremists are subhuman freaks who need to be extinguished from the face of this Earth.

&gt;I´m sorry but I find it quite naive that you think that a country can do these things and get away with it. Intervention always brings the risk of becoming a target. So don´t moan when someone shoots at the target.&lt;

Do what things? Support an ally? What if we supported the Netherlands if you were targeted by a hostile country-would it be then not OK for terrorists to attack us? They are not shooting at a target-they are purposely attacking innocent civilians-not the military.

&gt;I also never said Muslim extremists are right to fly planes in to buildings nor am I making up excuses. I gave you the reason. Which has nothing to do with your own economy or the way you run your country.
You´re not a target for what you do in your country, you´re a target for what you do in the country of others. Right or wrong.&lt;

What you are doing is rationalizing terrorism, which makes you no better than they are. You have no moral base with which to guide your life. How sad that you can't see this.

&gt;PS. Before you start telling people how hopeless they would be without the U.S I would consider the fact that without European expansionism there would be no U.S&lt;

Without Britain there would be no US-I don't consider Britain to be a part of Europe, and many British feel the same way.

&gt;On top of that, yes a lot of European countries can save on their military because the U.S spends a lot on it. Don´t forget though that during the cold war we were acting as a buffer for the U.S. Do you really think WWIII would have been fought in your country? Central Europe, that´s where. I never saw Europeans going around boasting about that to the U.S.&lt;

Just existing doesn't make you much of a buffer. Continue to sit on your collective asses while the US and Britain do the dirty work...............................
post #78 of 512
Whenever I am in the states, I make it a point to watch the TV there. I watched several different newsreports and I thought they were of centre-right to right leaning. In Canada, we have the CBC, which is the national public network, that is enough to the left for a mainstream station. All of the others, however, are horrible. They have been bought or merged with the tabloids or right-wing eliteist newspapers. Eg. Global/National Post, CTV/Bell GlobeMedia (Globe and Mail), CITY TV draws direct comparisons witht the Toronto Sun as well.

When I talked about economic strength, I was clearly referring to 2001-2002.


I also think that in Canada, the general view on right v.s left is far different than in the USA. The left is much further to the left and the right is closer to centrist American policies.

On the IMF/World Bank/G8/WTO/NAFTA/FTAA...

Give me some solid examples of how they have helped the economy, protected the rights of the under priveliged, not infringed upon government's law making power, and the list goes on.

NAFTA panels have ruled that a a ban on a particularly harmful pesticide in Canada is not allowable under Chapter 7 of NAFTA and so a decision made by the federal government in the interest of protecting its own citizens was ruled down by a tribunal that is only concerned about business' right to profitabilty! The IMF/World Bank always does more damage than good. Look at the current situation is Jamaica for a good example of how the IMFs policies and horrible economics have destroyed what was once a strong economy. The IMF was also responsible for the South-East Asian recession of 1998. 3rd world debt is also the responsibility of the IMF/World Bank as its interest rates are too exorbitant for any nation to consider. Mozambique cannot afford to pay for education because the money that would go towards public schooling is now being used to pay off huge debt to already rich creditor nations.

And SDW - Don't laugh at the concept of police agitators until you actually attend a protest. I'm serious - even if you don't believe in why you are there, just go so you have some experience in the field. Watch the video shot about the G8 meetings in Genoa - The secret military police was beating the hell out of journalists! And not your "criminal liberal" ones either - I'm talking about ones for stations like CNN, etc. There was a night time raid to carry off protstors who were sleeping in a building where once they were in jail they were:

1) pissed on
2) theatened with rape
3) spat on
4) beaten relentlessly
5) tortured
6) denied basic human rights

These are just ordinary citizens who are expressing their democratic right to protest. This sort of thing has happened in Canada and the United States, so don't go spurting off about how just and free your society is just yet.
post #79 of 512
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by yogisfunhouse:
<strong>Whenever I am in the states, I make it a point to watch the TV there. I watched several different newsreports and I thought they were of centre-right to right leaning. In Canada, we have the CBC, which is the national public network, that is enough to the left for a mainstream station. All of the others, however, are horrible. They have been bought or merged with the tabloids or right-wing eliteist newspapers. Eg. Global/National Post, CTV/Bell GlobeMedia (Globe and Mail), CITY TV draws direct comparisons witht the Toronto Sun as well.

When I talked about economic strength, I was clearly referring to 2001-2002.


I also think that in Canada, the general view on right v.s left is far different than in the USA. The left is much further to the left and the right is closer to centrist American policies.

On the IMF/World Bank/G8/WTO/NAFTA/FTAA...

Give me some solid examples of how they have helped the economy, protected the rights of the under priveliged, not infringed upon government's law making power, and the list goes on.

NAFTA panels have ruled that a a ban on a particularly harmful pesticide in Canada is not allowable under Chapter 7 of NAFTA and so a decision made by the federal government in the interest of protecting its own citizens was ruled down by a tribunal that is only concerned about business' right to profitabilty! The IMF/World Bank always does more damage than good. Look at the current situation is Jamaica for a good example of how the IMFs policies and horrible economics have destroyed what was once a strong economy. The IMF was also responsible for the South-East Asian recession of 1998. 3rd world debt is also the responsibility of the IMF/World Bank as its interest rates are too exorbitant for any nation to consider. Mozambique cannot afford to pay for education because the money that would go towards public schooling is now being used to pay off huge debt to already rich creditor nations.

And SDW - Don't laugh at the concept of police agitators until you actually attend a protest. I'm serious - even if you don't believe in why you are there, just go so you have some experience in the field. Watch the video shot about the G8 meetings in Genoa - The secret military police was beating the hell out of journalists! And not your "criminal liberal" ones either - I'm talking about ones for stations like CNN, etc. There was a night time raid to carry off protstors who were sleeping in a building where once they were in jail they were:

1) pissed on
2) theatened with rape
3) spat on
4) beaten relentlessly
5) tortured
6) denied basic human rights

These are just ordinary citizens who are expressing their democratic right to protest. This sort of thing has happened in Canada and the United States, so don't go spurting off about how just and free your society is just yet.</strong><hr></blockquote>


You are hopeless. That entire post is hopeless.

And Pflam: You are less hopeless, but much more boring. Sometimes things ARE simple.
Oh, and I never said that everyone should want to live here. Never.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #80 of 512
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by stimuli:
<strong>

This is steering off topic, but the right to secede was guaranteed in the constitution. The South had the right to Succeed.
The North acted illegally. Check your history books.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Article One, Section Ten of the US constitution reads:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation;...."

Clearly the South violated this clause by forming the confederacy.

Later, the section reads:

"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay"

Again, the South clearly violated this part of the clause by entering into a compact with other states.

In any case, I assume we agree the war was generally over the states right to secede. The war did, in fact, settle this point, by force.

Oh, could you show me where the constitution guarantees the right to secede?

And its S-E-C-E-D-E....not, S-U-C-C-E-D-E.

Class dismissed.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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