My Statement to Nations That Hate the US - Page 2

[quote]Originally posted by stimuli:
<strong>Originally posted by SDW2001:
[qb]

If you resent us, I understand why. We have the best economy and overall standard of living in the whole world. </strong>

ROTFL! Best overall standard of living? America has one of the worst standards, especially considering the fact that America is the wealthiest country. The Division between rich and poor is huge. Tell someone from Compton that the have the best standard of living. Or Detroit. Or a Mexican emigre working on a pesticide ridden farm.[/QB]

<strong> We decided to let the people run our government, not the military. </strong>

So it was the will of the people to invade Korea? Vietnam? What about Panama? Cuba? Haiti? What about backing Both Saddam Hussein (sp?) and Osama with weapons and finances? Remember that? Does the name Oliver North ring a bell? Are you familiar with the term 'hegemony'?
<strong>We decided to allow free speech.</strong> Try burning an American Flag in protest.
<strong> We decided to allow freedom of the press. </strong>

<strong>We decided to allow government transparency. </strong> See above.

<strong>We tried out a new system of government</strong> Democracy was invented by the greeks over a thousand years ago.

<strong>Did we have states leaving the union and forming their own tribal militias? No. </strong>

The last time that happened, and it DID happen, America's North betrayed its own constitution and engaged in civil war, forcing the South to be apart of the US, regardless of the abuses it was sustaining from the North to spark this conflict. And no, the civil war was not about slavery.

<strong>And now, after all we have been through, after we have defended nation after nation, intervened time and time again, literally saved the civilized world from evil facists, and defeated an oppressive superpower</strong>

First, what you don't seem to realize is that America IS an opressive superpower. Second, saving who? Korea/Vietnam from themselves? Intervened... to protect oil interests? Quit making like America isn't greedy and selfish, like your evil bogeymen enemies are. Saving the world from evil fascists... please.You've been reading AOL-Time-Warner-Turner publications in your hegemonic country again, aren't you?
<strong>
You decide we are decadent, fat and lazy. [QB] It's off topic, but hey, America has the highest percentage of obesity, last I checked.

[QB] You decide that we must be destroyed because we have abused our power and become an evil empire ourselves.
</strong>

'You'? Who? those darkies, those Ay-rabs in the 'axis of evil'?

<strong>You have people starving, dying in the streets.</strong>
Unlike America? Wake up, rich white boy.

<strong> You have shitty, little pathetic militaries, the largest of which we could take out with a few 1980's era fighter/bombers.</strong>
And that is the proof that America is a better country? Because they spend billions more on bombs and tanks and helicopters?

I can't believe you have the audacity to posit that America has it 'all figured out' and that your solution to the problems of the world is for everyone to be more like America. Wake up and smell the coffee. Your **** stinks, too.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>


There are so many problems with this post I almost don't know where to start. but here goes:

1. I agree we have many poor. But, the overall standard of living, especially for the middle-middle class, is much higher. We do have poor immigrants and decaying inner cities, granted. But, the size and scope our middle class is much greater than in other nations. In particular, our upper middle class (say, those making 70-200,000 a year) is huge when compared to other nations.

2. Military: Our elected leaders made those decisions. The legislative and executive branches control the military. Many other nations have military dictatorships. You forget we do not live in a direct democracy; we live in a republic.

3. Flag burning is legal. If someone kicks your ass for it, that's not my problem. Sue them....you'd win.

4. Democracy: We were, indeed, the first MODERN democracy. Read my original post. That system had not been tried since before the birth of Chirst. I'd say that qualifies as "first modern".

5. [quote]The last time that happened, and it DID happen, America's North betrayed its own constitution and engaged in civil war, forcing the South to be apart of the US, regardless of the abuses it was sustaining from the North to spark this conflict. <hr></blockquote>

-----What? the NORTH betrayed the constitution? What an interesting version of history! My friend, it was the SOUTH who tried to secede from the Union, which the Northern, Union states prevented. THE SOUTHERN STATES were the ones who were acting improperly.

[quote]And no, the civil war was not about slavery. <hr></blockquote>

WOW! Thanks for clearing that up! You must have done really well in "American History I" last marking period!

6. I disagree that we are oppressive. We allow government criticism, disagreement, protest, freedom of the press, religion etc. We have intervened to protect national security, which oil interests are a part of.....I'll give you that.

7. Reasonable speculation: If the US did not intervene in WWII, Germany very well may have taken all of Europe, Asia and Africa. France, Poland, Norway and many others had fallen, and Britain was within a year or so of speaking German for good. More reasonable speculation: If the US did not match the Soviet Union "blow for blow" during the cold war, we might all be speaking Russian right now.

8. Ted Turner happens to be one of the most liberal individuals on the planet.

9. "You" refers to "nations that hate us"....as the topic of the thread indicates. It is speculative. I thought that much was obvious.

10. I'm a middle class person, actually. Though, I am white. We don't have nearly the starvation that the following countries do: Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Russia and North Korea.....just to name a few.

11. Military again: You are the one who missed the point here. Many of these nations crave power. There is no question they don't have it. I am saying that part of the reason is they do not have economies that can support large militaries. This is a direct result of their oppressive regimes not allowing capitalism. Isn't there an argument that trying our system is "worth a shot", so to speak?

And finally, I never said we "have it all figured out". I said that some of the nations that hate us should, perhaps, consider trying things our way, because what they are doing obviously isn't working.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by macvasco:
<strong>

Gladly.

See, you think people look down on the U.S for their superiority.

However,

You´re not superior.

No one will deny that the U.S isn´t the worst country in the world to live in.

However,

The majority of the people on this world hate arrogance. You say you´re a patriot but all you do is tell everyone how superior your country is. That´s not patriotism. If you were to tell me how you love democracy, freedom of speech, New York, your flag, the Grand Canyon, the Rockies etc. Now that would be patriotic.

However,

You tell me how much better your country is than mine. You tell me how much I should be like you and lose my own national pride.

And that, my friend, is what people look down on.

So all the things that you said is not why people poke fun at your country, it´s because you said them. That´s what I meant by you making the point by missing it.

If you want to know the reason for extremists flying planes in to your buildings. Look no further than your continued aid to Israel.

Trust me, the general population of the world does not hate or envy your country. I respect the United States, even if I don´t always agree with it´s policies, I respect them. But it´s Americans like you who confuse patriotism with blatant arrogance that make for the opportunity to have cheap shots at your country.

Finally,

I´m Dutch. We have a lower percentage of teenage pregnancy, poor people and drug addicts in our country than the U.S. Do you think the U.S should be more like the Netherlands in it´s policies regarding these issues?</strong><hr></blockquote>


1. Who the hell is talking about your country? I am talking about nations that have oppresive military regimes without any personal or religious freedoms. I did say I think we are the "best" nation. I stand firm on that. There is no other place in the world I'd rather live. That's just my opinion.

2. I do love democracy, freedom of speech, New York, the grand canyon, etc. That IS WHY I love America.

3. I never said you should lose your national pride. Not once.

4. The Israel comment was absurd. No one has a right to hijack a jetliner and plunge it into a building. I don't care what the reason is.
If you had made that comment to my face, I would seriously consider punching you in the mouth.

5. [quote]Trust me, the general population of the world does not hate or envy your country. <hr></blockquote>

----Wrong. Europe might not. Islamic extremeists and those under their influence might not. But, tell me: Why do MILLIONS of Mexicans, Cubans, and other ethnic groups risk their lives trying to get here each year? Why was there mass immigration to the US in the late 1800's and early 1900's? Answer: Because those people knew there may be a better life here, or at least a chance for it. Also, tell me why Boris Yeltsin, on his first trip to the US, walked into a supermarket, saw all the glistening produce and aisles of food, and almost fell to his knees....crying out "what have they done to mother Russia"? Tell me he didn't envy the US and I'll eat my hat. And tell me there aren't a bunch of entire nations out there that truly, deeply hate America and its power and I'll eat another.

Finally,

[quote]Do you think the U.S should be more like the Netherlands in it´s policies regarding these issues?[ <hr></blockquote>

Perhaps....it depends on the policy.

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by yogisfunhouse:
<strong>You must have flunked US history 101 SDW...

The US Civil War was not just caused by Slavery - how about huge economic disparities between the north and the south, cultural differences and yes, Slavery, but that was really a minor issue. Why did Lincoln sigh the proclamation? Because it was hoped for that if the slaves in the South got word of it, they would rebel against their masters and help the North's cause from deep within the South - It had nothing to do with morals or ethics.

Also SDW, when was the last time you tried to peacefully protest at a G8, IMF/World Bank, WTO meeting? Isn't everyone given the basic human rights to freedom of peaceful assembly and protection from arrest without cause? Well, just try going to an anti-globalization protest. You will see that the protests are 100% peaceful before the police agitators come in and the bust heads and haul everyone off to jail. I've been to many.

Freedom of the press? Right.... and you actually believe that? The people who control the press are the exact same people who control the government... Corporate America. Flip through all of the stations on TV and you will see it is all the same right-wing tripe. There is no mainstream alternative viewpoint. There is no one to stand up for the environment or the poor. The press is simply a way of large, very rich corporations to contros peoples opinions and wallets.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. I did quite well in history.

WHEN DID I EVER SAY THE CIVIL WAR WAS ONLY ABOUT SLAVERY?????? NEVER!!!! And it had at least SOMETHING to do with morals and ethics.

2. I wouldn't protest it because, IMO, those organizations HELP the world. Police agitators? BWHAHAHAHA. Those organizations promote free trade and loans to very poor nations, despite you liberal, idiotic viepoint on them.

3. We DO have freedom of the press. Believe me, I DO understand that corporations control the news media. I understand that all too well. My point is that our government does have a state run press like, say, Saudi Arabia.
And although I agree corporations do have much control of our government, we still have some.

4. [quote]Flip through all of the stations on TV and you will see it is all the same right-wing tripe. There is no mainstream alternative viewpoint. There is no one to stand up for the environment or the poor. The press is simply a way of large, very rich corporations to contros peoples opinions and wallets. <hr></blockquote>

---I had to post that last part again so I could continue laughing harder. The media in this nation is well known to be a criminal LIBERAL MACHINE. Ted Turner, Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, The New York Times.....the list goes on and on. No one standing up for the environment? WTF? You probably don't even have the facts on the environment, because you, like many others, have been brainwashed by the criminal liberal media.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by macvasco:
<strong>

ad1. Exactly. When you say you are the best nation it does involve my country as well.

ad2. Well done, now that´s patriotic.

ad3. You said that maybe other countries should try it your way. That reeks, nay stinks, of arrogance. Maybe you should not make comments like that.

ad4. Like I said just now, I never said I agree with the reason. It is the reason. That´s a fact.

You´re punching in the face comment just shows that your anger keeps you from having a discussion on a high level. You should be able to defend your convictions without having to resort to violence. Just like the Arabs and the Israelis should. (I admit that sounds a bit belittling but I´ll stand by it)

ad5. There is mass imigration to the Netherlands, Germany and other countries as well. So how are you the best? How are you better than these other countries that have exactly the same?

By the way, I really don´t find someone else´s misfortune something you should pride yourself for not having.

I will tell you once again that there are no nations or entire countries that hate the U.S. There may be governments/regimes that do and there are individuals that do. But not for it´s might and money. For the way it uses that might against these countries and for the way it doesn´t share that wealth with everyone.

Would you like fries with that hat?</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. Sorry you take offense to my "best" nation comment. That is just the way I feel.

2. OK....

3. What's wrong with suggesting that other countries try it our way? It has to be better than what some of them are doing now. Don't you think? I didn't say "try it Great Britain's way", because we truly were the first modern democracy. It wasn't our idea, but we are the first modern implementation of it. That's why I said "our way". Believe it or not, the Dutch, French, British, etc were not the first modern democracies.

4. Fair enough.

5. Unlike some, my anger makes me more committed to winning an argument. I don't apologize for feeling that strongly. Anyone who says things like "you can't expect to get away with it" just shows the huge anti-semitic undercurrent present in the world. How dare we support a democracy surrounded by nations that truly DO hate it? (I assume even you agree that Israel is surrounded by nations that hate it). Can't get away with it? What is there to get away with? And I have a right to be pissed off about 3,000 Americans being murdered in cold blood.

6. We disagree about the hatred and/or envy of the US. Perhaps less envy than hatred......what do you base your assertion on? You are honestly telling me some governments don't envy and/or hate the US for their power and might? Give me a break.

7. Share the wealth? . This is truly the most unreasonable, ultra-liberal thing you have said. We are the single largest provider of foreign aid in the world.

And don't get me started on "share the wealth". The reasons I am conservative are pretty simple: I believe in limited government, local control, lower taxes, that religion DOES have some place in public places, that lowering taxes on corporations, to an extent, DOES help the overall economy, that lower taxes eventually create more revenue and growth, that some types of abortion are murder, and that there is a clear difference in most cases between right and wrong. I also don't subscribe to affirmative action, more social programs and so forth.

It is my belief that liberalism doesn't work; especially extreme liberalism (though obviously extreme conservatism, i.e. facisim, doesn't either). Every great "share the wealth" program in history has failed. The Great Society was a distaster. The only successful liberal programs came out of the Great Depression, and that was a very different time.

And please folks, don't paint conservatism as a "me" concept. I supoort it because I truly believe it works better. I give to charity, support a child through Christian Children's Fund, and try to help others. But, I don't believe I should pay 50-60% of my income to a government agency, which is what I do now by the time I'm done. And I truly believe that too many social programs create sloth, and that "rewarding failure and punishing success" creates more failure.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>

Economic facts from CIA world fact book:

"The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $36,200."

"GDPtpurchasing power parity - $9.963 trillion (2000 est.) "

GDP - real growth ratet5% (2000 est.)

GDP - per capitatpurchasing power parity - $36,200 (2000 est.)

Canada:

" Real rates of growth have averaged nearly 3.0% since 1993"

GDPtpurchasing power parity - $774.7 billion (2000 est.)

GDP - real growth ratet4.3% (2000 est.)

GDP - per capitatpurchasing power parity - $24,800 (2000 est.)


Though Canada is certainly smaller population-wise and does have a highly advanced economy. This kind of ends the debate on this point, no?

[quote]Originally posted by yogisfunhouse:
<strong>Whenever I am in the states, I make it a point to watch the TV there. I watched several different newsreports and I thought they were of centre-right to right leaning. In Canada, we have the CBC, which is the national public network, that is enough to the left for a mainstream station. All of the others, however, are horrible. They have been bought or merged with the tabloids or right-wing eliteist newspapers. Eg. Global/National Post, CTV/Bell GlobeMedia (Globe and Mail), CITY TV draws direct comparisons witht the Toronto Sun as well.

When I talked about economic strength, I was clearly referring to 2001-2002.


I also think that in Canada, the general view on right v.s left is far different than in the USA. The left is much further to the left and the right is closer to centrist American policies.

On the IMF/World Bank/G8/WTO/NAFTA/FTAA...

Give me some solid examples of how they have helped the economy, protected the rights of the under priveliged, not infringed upon government's law making power, and the list goes on.

NAFTA panels have ruled that a a ban on a particularly harmful pesticide in Canada is not allowable under Chapter 7 of NAFTA and so a decision made by the federal government in the interest of protecting its own citizens was ruled down by a tribunal that is only concerned about business' right to profitabilty! The IMF/World Bank always does more damage than good. Look at the current situation is Jamaica for a good example of how the IMFs policies and horrible economics have destroyed what was once a strong economy. The IMF was also responsible for the South-East Asian recession of 1998. 3rd world debt is also the responsibility of the IMF/World Bank as its interest rates are too exorbitant for any nation to consider. Mozambique cannot afford to pay for education because the money that would go towards public schooling is now being used to pay off huge debt to already rich creditor nations.

And SDW - Don't laugh at the concept of police agitators until you actually attend a protest. I'm serious - even if you don't believe in why you are there, just go so you have some experience in the field. Watch the video shot about the G8 meetings in Genoa - The secret military police was beating the hell out of journalists! And not your "criminal liberal" ones either - I'm talking about ones for stations like CNN, etc. There was a night time raid to carry off protstors who were sleeping in a building where once they were in jail they were:

1) pissed on
2) theatened with rape
3) spat on
4) beaten relentlessly
5) tortured
6) denied basic human rights

These are just ordinary citizens who are expressing their democratic right to protest. This sort of thing has happened in Canada and the United States, so don't go spurting off about how just and free your society is just yet.</strong><hr></blockquote>


You are hopeless. That entire post is hopeless.

And Pflam: You are less hopeless, but much more boring. Sometimes things ARE simple.
Oh, and I never said that everyone should want to live here. Never.

[quote]Originally posted by stimuli:
<strong>

This is steering off topic, but the right to secede was guaranteed in the constitution. The South had the right to Succeed.
The North acted illegally. Check your history books.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Article One, Section Ten of the US constitution reads:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation;...."

Clearly the South violated this clause by forming the confederacy.

Later, the section reads:

"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay"

Again, the South clearly violated this part of the clause by entering into a compact with other states.

In any case, I assume we agree the war was generally over the states right to secede. The war did, in fact, settle this point, by force.

Oh, could you show me where the constitution guarantees the right to secede?

And its S-E-C-E-D-E....not, S-U-C-C-E-D-E.

Class dismissed.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>