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Apple's relaxing of App Store rules has 'muted' effect on Adobe - Page 2

post #41 of 78
9/22/10 at 12:43pm
...see how far that gets you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

According to the more technologically-intimidated, it is because you have Apple's assurance that the gas is OK. Just like the apps in the curated app store.



But to further the analogy, Apple would seek to have it declared illegal to put other gas in "their" cars, going so far as to invent national security threats, and the USPTO would declare that in America, consumers have the right to use any gas they choose.

Apple would routinely change the engine's firmware so it would cease to function if it detected gas that didn't have Apple's sooper seekrit signature ingredient, and the user community would have to once again foil Apple's crap in order to use normal gas, instead of going to Apple's exclusive venue.

Other car manufacturers would tout that their cars will run on any brand of gas, and many Apple customers will say that the other gas is too sour for their taste, and that you get what you pay for, and that Apple's gas stations have a better User Experience, thankyouverymuch.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #42 of 78
9/22/10 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

...see how far that gets you.

The analogy under discussion is this one:

"Whatever, a better analogy would be that Apple put a special gas cap on their car and you can only fill up with Apple petro at special Apple gas stations... And there is nothing different about Apple Gas... "

To keep within the bounds of the analogy under discussion, putting in a different type of fuel would be like trying to install Google Maps Navigation on an iPhone.

HTH.
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post #43 of 78
9/22/10 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

The analogy under discussion is this one:

"Whatever, a better analogy would be that Apple put a special gas cap on their car and you can only fill up with Apple petro at special Apple gas stations... And there is nothing different about Apple Gas... "

To keep within the bounds of the analogy under discussion, putting in a different type of fuel would be like trying to install Google Maps Navigation on an iPhone.

HTH.

Except, of course, "gas" is a completely ridiculous analogy for "applications on a computer operating system."

You might have a point if Apple insisted that their computers could only run on Apple branded electricity, but applications are analogous to features on a car. And guess what? I can't jam BMW parts into my Chevy, without voiding the warranty.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #44 of 78
9/22/10 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Except, of course, "gas" is a completely ridiculous analogy

Given that it is not mine, I have no pride of authorship.
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post #45 of 78
9/22/10 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Much like third-party car stereo systems? We can riff on that too.

And if your third party stereo shorted out the electrical system in your car, do you think the car manufacturer would fix it under warranty?
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post #46 of 78
9/22/10 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_Keeper_Fan_Mod View Post

Wall Street is flushing (or Flashing) Adobe shares down the toilet. I remember the day that Apple said it would allow that Flash developer tools to be used on iOS, that freakin' Adobe stock shot way up. Some people warned that it was just a bubble that would pop quickly. I guess today is the day of the bubble pop. Too bad Flash can't be abolished from smartphones, but there are too many old schoolers that are scared to let it go. Oh, well. Today's a good a day as any to short Adobe down to the low $20 range. Let the vultures swoop in.

I skimmed some article where the writer speculated that if ADBE got low enough, Google would
acquire them.
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post #47 of 78
9/22/10 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I believe you are wrong on all accounts.

I don't think you can name one computer brand that does not come with Flash.

There is no other product that can come even close in features and performance of Flash.

Regardless of whether a standards board has acknowledged it or not it is already on 99% of all computers used to surf the Internet.

HTML 5 is not an approved standard and it does not run well on the most prevalent browser in the market.

And no, we can't go on and on because that is all I have to say to you on this subject.

Please, stop pretending that Flash is a standard. It's a proprietary technology and one computer it doesn't come on is the iPhone, and the iPad, and every other mobile computer except for a miniscule percentage where it apparently runs like crap, except for a few chery-picked demo sites.. It's not a standard, or even "standard". And, please, don't even try to tout the performance of Flash; it's crap, and it always has been, and always will be. HTML5 will run not only on the most prevalent browser in the market long before Flash runs on more than a few mobile computers, but it will be a standard, something Flash will never be.

Flash had it's day, that day is gone, the rest of its history will simply record its decline, and eventual disappearance. HTML5, 6, 7, ... are the future.
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post #48 of 78
9/22/10 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

Here you are again Newtron, spewing your BS. Apple wants the consumer to have a great experience. This has nothing to do with lock-in. It has a lot to do with flash being old tech crapware that doesn't work on mobile devices. Your ignorant rants are really tiresome. Who are you shilling for? Apple has opened its app store to programs like Netflix, Kindle ebooks, Pandora, and many other "competing" products so your idiotic claim of lock-in holds no truth. You need to improve your education.

That is something I keep hearing, but after so many great-experience fart/burp/baby-shake apps and articles like http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=19681, it really makes me wonder.

Or, maybe, it makes me stop wondering...
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post #49 of 78
9/22/10 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

That is something I keep hearing, but after so many great-experience fart/burp/baby-shake apps and articles like http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=19681, it really makes me wonder.

Or, maybe, it makes me stop wondering...

Sorry, but this nonsense has been totally debunked. The entire "test" was cooked to make Flash look good and HMTL5 bad by using totally inefficient code for the HTML5 test. Some quick optimizations done by people not involved in the original "test" fixed the HTML5 code and showed that the original "test" was pure bunk.
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post #50 of 78
9/22/10 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

That is something I keep hearing, but after so many great-experience fart/burp/baby-shake apps and articles like http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=19681, it really makes me wonder.

Or, maybe, it makes me stop wondering...

From that article:

"iPhone 4's HTML5 looks pathetic versus Android, even worse against Flash 10.1"
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post #51 of 78
9/22/10 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Sorry, but this nonsense has been totally debunked. The entire "test" was cooked to make Flash look good and HMTL5 bad by using totally inefficient code for the HTML5 test. Some quick optimizations done by people not involved in the original "test" fixed the HTML5 code and showed that the original "test" was pure bunk.

Any relevant link, please?

I can accept that HTML5 code was crappy in order to make Flash look better (though I would like to see some in-depth reading on that topic first), but it still does not explain why that same crappy HTLM5 was running better on Android.
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post #52 of 78
9/22/10 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Any relevant link, please?

I can accept that HTML5 code was crappy in order to make Flash look better (though I would like to see some in-depth reading on that topic first), but it still does not explain why that same crappy HTLM5 was running better on Android.

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/09/20/not-so-fast

There you go.
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post #53 of 78
9/22/10 at 8:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

, the rest of its history will simply record its decline, and eventual disappearance. HTML5, 6, 7, ... are the future.

Regardless that you cannot address even one of my points with any substantive logic, I agree with your conclusion, however, the future is yet to be. I'm a big proponent of the the future. So bring it on. When HTML can completely displace Flash I will be the first one to acclaim its merits. Until then you are just wishing that HTML couild match Flash feature for feature, which of course we both know it can't.

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post #54 of 78
9/22/10 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

That is incorrect.
The ownership of the phone passes to the buyer. The best that the vendor may retain is some sort of unperfected purchase-money security interest, but I doubt that they even have that.

Try canceling your contract early and see how much money is left owing on your cellphone.

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post #55 of 78
9/22/10 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Given that it is not mine, I have no pride of authorship.

If I consistently posted the same kind of crap that you do, I wouldn't have any pride either.

Newbee says:  Using a Mac "inspires" you, using all others just ... tires you.  

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post #56 of 78
9/22/10 at 10:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/09/20/not-so-fast

There you go.

Only 3 problems there:

1. We do not know if Flash version can be further optimised or not
2. 45 FPS is still below Flash performance (57? 59?)
3. Flash aside, crappy HTML5 was significantly faster on Nexus, which is more important for me than Flash comparison. Wonder if this optimised version improves on Nexus as well.

According to all that it seems to me Apple has put much more effort into their PR campaign than into actual effort to give their customers best possible experience. Which, in my eyes at least, negates OP's claim that Apple does everything for end users' experience.
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post #57 of 78
9/22/10 at 10:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

From that article:

"iPhone 4's HTML5 looks pathetic versus Android, even worse against Flash 10.1"


Also from that article, that you conveniently forgot to mention, is:

"What he found was that on the iPod Touch 4G (roughly identical hardware to the iPhone 4 sans 3G modem)"


In other words, he tested an iPod Touch ( 50% less ram) against an android phone..... and then proceeded to slam the "iPhone 4's HTML5" based on his tests .... unbelievable. Is this guy your brother or something.

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post #58 of 78
9/22/10 at 10:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

According to all that it seems to me Apple has put much more effort into their PR campaign than into actual effort to give their customers best possible experience. Which, in my eyes at least, negates OP's claim that Apple does everything for end users' experience.

How old is Flash and how old is html 5? .... does a newborn baby walk like a teenager? Give me a break.

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post #59 of 78
9/22/10 at 10:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_Keeper_Fan_Mod View Post

Today's a good a day as any to short Adobe down to the low $20 range. Let the vultures swoop in.

You could be right, BOTOH, their latest earnings report wasn't all that bad ... with Apple relaxing the rules, allowing back into the fold, so to speak ... and most importantly ...(Adobe Unveils Photoshop Elements 9 & Adobe Premiere Elements 9 Bundle for Windows and Mac) .. I see more reason to buy than to sell. Plus with today's 19% drop, I see less risk on the downside ... but let's face it .... nobody really can predict this crazy stock market, at the best of times. I bought some Adobe today (mid day @ 26.36) but hey, that could easily disappear tomorrow but my intention is to give it until the new year, unless there's a dramatic move before then. We'll see. Good luck to all, whichever way you choose.
PS ... I may hate Flash but the new Photoshop Elements 9 & Adobe Premiere Elements 9 look pretty enticing to me, with the brief look I had at them, anyway.

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post #60 of 78
9/22/10 at 10:47pm
Yeah... Flash is an "open" standard, HTML is a "closed" standard. Heard this one from Adobe before... still doesn't make any sense.
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post #61 of 78
9/22/10 at 10:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

How old is Flash and how old is html 5? .... does a newborn baby walk like a teenager? Give me a break.

You realize that Mobile Flash is newer then HTML5 right? There are several cross-platform solutions for HTML like PhoneGap, so no need to rely on Mobile Flash.
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post #62 of 78
9/23/10 at 3:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

According to the more technologically-intimidated, it is because you have Apple's assurance that the gas is OK. Just like the apps in the curated app store.

But to further the analogy, Apple would seek to have it declared illegal to put other gas in "their" cars, going so far as to invent national security threats, and the USPTO would declare that in America, consumers have the right to use any gas they choose.

Apple would routinely change the engine's firmware so it would cease to function if it detected gas that didn't have Apple's sooper seekrit signature ingredient, and the user community would have to once again foil Apple's crap in order to use normal gas, instead of going to Apple's exclusive venue.

Other car manufacturers would tout that their cars will run on any brand of gas, and many Apple customers will say that the other gas is too sour for their taste, and that you get what you pay for, and that Apple's gas stations have a better User Experience, thankyouverymuch.

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post #63 of 78
9/23/10 at 5:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Regardless that you cannot address even one of my points with any substantive logic, I agree with your conclusion, however, the future is yet to be. I'm a big proponent of the the future. So bring it on. When HTML can completely displace Flash I will be the first one to acclaim its merits. Until then you are just wishing that HTML couild match Flash feature for feature, which of course we both know it can't.

Well, ignoring the fact that you have not made any actual "substantive" arguments for your vision of the future, where we are condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past, The idea that Flash must be matched feature for feature to be supplanted is ridiculous and the history of technology is largely one contrary to your requirements.
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post #64 of 78
9/23/10 at 5:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I believe you are wrong on all accounts.

I don't think you can name one computer brand that does not come with Flash.

There is no other product that can come even close in features and performance of Flash.

Regardless of whether a standards board has acknowledged it or not it is already on 99% of all computers used to surf the Internet.

HTML 5 is not an approved standard and it does not run well on the most prevalent browser in the market.

And no, we can't go on and on because that is all I have to say to you on this subject.

agreed on all points.

People's hatred of flash causes them to spout constantly crap that isn't true.

Wake me when html 5 is a... "standard".

Personally, it can't come soon enough, it's about time we went from html4 to 5 doncha think?

the fact that the backtracking by apple the other week hasn't made a significant push on adobe's sales is hardly surprising. Apple's policy atm is a bit of a moving target, so I don't know that too many people will spend money only to have apple change it's mind, again.
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post #65 of 78
9/23/10 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Only 3 problems there:

1. We do not know if Flash version can be further optimised or not
2. 45 FPS is still below Flash performance (57? 59?)
3. Flash aside, crappy HTML5 was significantly faster on Nexus, which is more important for me than Flash comparison. Wonder if this optimised version improves on Nexus as well.

According to all that it seems to me Apple has put much more effort into their PR campaign than into actual effort to give their customers best possible experience. Which, in my eyes at least, negates OP's claim that Apple does everything for end users' experience.

1. This "test" was put together by Flash proponents. It's ridiculous to think they didn't totally optimize it.

2. Flash runs at 60 FPS on mobile? I doubt that very much. The HTML5 version also runs at 60 FPS (and higher) on a Core 2 Duo.

Right, because real world Flash performance (not the few cherry-picked sites) is so wonderful. No Flash definitely improves the web user experience, as well as the overall experience on mobile, and, arguably, on the desktop as well, or Flash blockers wouldn't be so popular.
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post #66 of 78
9/23/10 at 6:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

agreed on all points.

People's hatred of flash causes them to spout constantly crap that isn't true.

Wake me when html 5 is a... "standard".

Personally, it can't come soon enough, it's about time we went from html4 to 5 doncha think?

the fact that the backtracking by apple the other week hasn't made a significant push on adobe's sales is hardly surprising. Apple's policy atm is a bit of a moving target, so I don't know that too many people will spend money only to have apple change it's mind, again.

I thought you'd be along, what took you so long? They aren't paying you for nothing, you know. HTML5 and particularly the canvas element would be much further along the standard track if it weren't for Adobe's efforts to sabotage and derail the effort. There will be no Flash player on iOS, and it's just spreading FUD (i.e., being dishonest) to state that Apple's position on this is a moving target.
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post #67 of 78
9/23/10 at 6:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I thought you'd be along, what took you so long? They aren't paying you for nothing, you know. HTML5 and particularly the canvas element would be much further along the standard track if it weren't for Adobe's efforts to sabotage and derail the effort. There will be no Flash player on iOS, and it's just spreading FUD (i.e., being dishonest) to state that Apple's position on this is a moving target.

I see you are as usual yapping off really contributing. "I HATE FLASH!!!! YOU"RE AND ADOBE SHILL!!! BLAAAAHHHH!!! A BLOG SAID SO!!!" really is quite the contribution, indeed.

I trust you have personally run tests on html5, and flash etc. on mobile phones yourself.

Yeah I know adobe is really sabotaging, we've been getting updates to our apps to make more use of html5. Total sabotage I know.

It's only the lemmings that think it's a html5 vs flash issue. If you talk to devs who have a brain, most will tell you, both are good technologies that are improving constantly. BOTH of them. Steve Jobs actually did flash devs a really, really huge favor. Ironically.

Sprry pal I love both technologies and understand the place for each. But that requires some sanity.

Keep on hatin!
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post #68 of 78
9/23/10 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I see you are as usual yapping off really contributing. "I HATE FLASH!!!! YOU"RE AND ADOBE SHILL!!! BLAAAAHHHH!!! A BLOG SAID SO!!!" really is quite the contribution, indeed.

Well, when you are, over a considerable period of time, a single issue poster, the conclusion is obvious. You are a shill. mstone, for example, who is clearly pro Flash, is just as obviously not a shill.
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post #69 of 78
9/23/10 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, when you are, over a considerable period of time, a single issue poster, the conclusion is obvious. You are a shill. mstone, for example, who is clearly pro Flash, is just as obviously not a shill.

well that's really intelligent.

No I have posted on other topics here as well. So why don't you, quick like a bunny, go through all my posts to try and formulate your next stellar contribution.

It really helps to add to the topic.
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post #70 of 78
9/23/10 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

well that's really intelligent.

No I have posted on other topics here as well. So why don't you, quick like a bunny, go through all my posts to try and formulate your next stellar contribution.

It really helps to add to the topic.

You're a shill.
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post #71 of 78
9/23/10 at 9:46am
well, if that's all you got... LOL

That says it all.
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post #72 of 78
9/23/10 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

1. This "test" was put together by Flash proponents. It's ridiculous to think they didn't totally optimize it.

2. Flash runs at 60 FPS on mobile? I doubt that very much. The HTML5 version also runs at 60 FPS (and higher) on a Core 2 Duo.

Right, because real world Flash performance (not the few cherry-picked sites) is so wonderful. No Flash definitely improves the web user experience, as well as the overall experience on mobile, and, arguably, on the desktop as well, or Flash blockers wouldn't be so popular.

It is equally ridiculous to use sentence such "It's ridiculous to think..." as an argument. It is never ridiculous to think. And one's thinking is hardly a hard argument.

If you bothered to read comments below that article, I believe some people did manage to get close to 60fps on their Androids. All cheaters and conspirators? Maybe, but they got me inclined to test for myself when I get opportunity.

Flash is doing fine on PC. I'm sorry Macs are left behind a bit, but you can't just apply your dissatisfaction with Flash to the rest of the world. Number of Flash blockers is irrelevant. Likewise, number of fart apps does not necessarily mean that everyone is farting on their phones. Do you have any solid numbers as of how many people are actively blocking Flash on their computers?

You are still avoiding part about crappy HTML5 still running much faster on Nexus than on iPhone 4. In my eyes, it looks as if Apple didn't do such a good job with optimising HTML5 - their format of choice - on iOS. Which, pushed further, seems to me Apple does not really care that much about users' experience as long as they are perceived as one who does care. How does it look to you?
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post #73 of 78
9/23/10 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

Zero is left on your cellphone. Money is left on your contract, however.

That much is crystal clear.

What's clear is you don't see the relationship between the contract and how much AT&T had to pay Apple for your phone ... I know .... it's a somewhat difficult thing to fathom, but try.

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post #74 of 78
9/24/10 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, when you are, over a considerable period of time, a single issue poster, the conclusion is obvious. You are a shill. mstone, for example, who is clearly pro Flash, is just as obviously not a shill.

Sure I'm pro Flash but I am also pro HTML 5. I have been involved with every cutting edge animation technology since HyperCard, which is roughly comparable to today's HTML animation capabilities.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #75 of 78
9/24/10 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Sure I'm pro Flash but I am also pro HTML 5. I have been involved with every cutting edge animation technology since HyperCard, which is roughly comparable to today's HTML animation capabilities.

this is a concept it doesn't get. It thinks that if you use flash, and know the truth about it, then well that's all you do.

Intelligence at it's finest.
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post #76 of 78
9/24/10 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Sure I'm pro Flash but I am also pro HTML 5. I have been involved with every cutting edge animation technology since HyperCard, which is roughly comparable to today's HTML animation capabilities.

I was contrasting you, pro Flash and not a shill, with Groovetube, a Flash shill.
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post #77 of 78
9/24/10 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

It is equally ridiculous to use sentence such "It's ridiculous to think..." as an argument. It is never ridiculous to think. And one's thinking is hardly a hard argument. ...

Would you prefer 'ludicrous'?
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post #78 of 78
9/24/10 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I was contrasting you, pro Flash and not a shill, with Groovetube, a Flash shill.

ahhh the last defence is to call you a shill or a troll.

Hello pot....
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