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iPad, Apple's 'Mac of the masses,' predicted to sell 21M in 2011 - Page 3

post #81 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum;

I've found these analyst estimates for iPad sales to be right on the mark... if you double them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism;

So you're saying that the analysts did exactly a half-assed job?

post #82 of 116
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Originally Posted by mikemikeb;

Maybe it's bad marketing that's holding BlackBerry down. Let me explain in two different ways:

1. I was listening to a radio show this morning, and the host discussed the McDonald's Happy Meal concept. Basically, McDonald's markets Happy Meals to kids, hoping they'll get their parents to take them to McDonald's. Once the kids enjoy what they get, then they get an emotional attachment to McDonald's. That generally makes kids loyal to McDonald's for life. There's a ton of market research that confirms this. Look around and you'll find it.

2. I saw a post on AI about how kids love using BBM, and this post about why that is. Basically, BBM makes messaging others definitely easier, and possibly cheaper, than with other phones.

So let's combine the two factors. I've been seeing a commercial that features BBM, but 1) they don't show exactly, feature-by-feature, what's so great with BBM, and 2) the commercial itself is marketed towards adults, on channels watched mostly by adults. Even the people in the commercials are older, and it's in a barbershop.

Forget commercials with adults in barbershops, being placed on the Lifetime and USA Network. Instead, what if Blackberry films a bunch of high schoolers, like, 100 of them, being given Blackberries for a couple of months, and have them praising the benefits of the phone (and especially BBM)? Then, air the finished commercials on networks commonly watched by teenagers, like MTV and the Disney Channel? Plant the seed of BlackBerry into the text-messaging youth, not adults focused on apps. (Besides, once there's an appreciable user base of BlackBerry 6 phones, app developers will develop plenty of apps for the OS, anyway). Once you hook the youth into BBM, then they're hooked for life.

Interesting points. I think we have a situation here whereby RIM culture is so built up on business and the style, ethics and drive of "the suits". Interestingly, the product has attracted a following on the strength of some of its features. The question is, can RIM stay relevant and update itself for both markets? I would suggest they create a sub-brand. Just like Poppy under Coach. That should be what they are focusing on, not trying to play catch-up with a tablet that may or may not have good business use until a year from now... Though I would like to see the Blackpad gain traction, there just aren't enough iPads to go around in global usage even through end of next year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landcruiser;

So I read a lot about iPads replacing laptops and all, but I don't understand one aspect of that. I think my iPad is a great device and plan to get more (for the kids), but I'm still required to have a computer to sync it with through iTunes. How else would you update the OS or firmware, or back it up, etc? Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me, the iPad will always be "add-on" device, not a replacement. Am I missing something?

I think what you're missing is the fact that a lot of people activate the iPad (this can be done in-store), then just use it for months without syncing with their computers. Music and podcasts, videos, movies can be downloaded on the iPad, apps and mail, Internet all no problem without a laptop. People with iPhones are notorious for going almost up to a year without figuring out what sync is... Regarding sync on AppleTV, for example, Steve said, "some people don't even know what that is...". It will take some time, but by middle to late next year iOS 5 will probably have iPad and iPhone untethered and non-forced OTA upgrades and some free cloud backup services. iPhone 5 probably will come with MobileMe Lite or something... Maybe.
post #83 of 116
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Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

In terms of AAPL I am not so sure because the general stock market sentiment weighs on it. But I think $300 by the end of Jan 2011 should be a given, assuming no major market drops in general. There are two quarters to report which should be sequentially the best Apple has done, ie. Calendar Q3 and Calendar Q4 2010.

At least $320 by middle of 2011 should then follow on naturally.

In any case, as long as Steve and the current team are still around (touch wood), things are shaping up very nicely for 2011.

A given -- as in, satisfaction guaranteed or your money back?
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post #84 of 116
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Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Interesting points. I think we have a situation here whereby RIM culture is so built up on business and the style, ethics and drive of "the suits". Interestingly, the product has attracted a following on the strength of some of its features. The question is, can RIM stay relevant and update itself for both markets? I would suggest they create a sub-brand. Just like Poppy under Coach. That should be what they are focusing on, not trying to play catch-up with a tablet that may or may not have good business use until a year from now... Though I would like to see the Blackpad gain traction, there just aren't enough iPads to go around in global usage even through end of next year!



I think what you're missing is the fact that a lot of people activate the iPad (this can be done in-store), then just use it for months without syncing with their computers. Music and podcasts, videos, movies can be downloaded on the iPad, apps and mail, Internet all no problem without a laptop. People with iPhones are notorious for going almost up to a year without figuring out what sync is... Regarding sync on AppleTV, for example, Steve said, "some people don't even know what that is...". It will take some time, but by middle to late next year iOS 5 will probably have iPad and iPhone untethered and non-forced OTA upgrades and some free cloud backup services. iPhone 5 probably will come with MobileMe Lite or something... Maybe.

Well reasoned and well said!

.
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post #85 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss;

A given -- as in, satisfaction guaranteed or your money back?

As in, "I'm not an analyst, but I play one on TV. I also offer MBA degrees..."
post #86 of 116
B
Quote:
Originally Posted by HIMIKO View Post

YOUR ESTIMATE IS FAR FAR BETTER and CORRECT than A BUNCH OF " USELESS " , " INCOMPETENT ", " DULL " ANALISTS on The LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOUR GUESS IS ALMOST " IDENTICAL " To MINE EXCEPT The NUMBER of i-Pad!

Mine is A Bit Balder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EARLIER ON THIS YEAR, I ESTIMATED i-Pad's SALES 2010 To BE " 10 MILLION " Amidst Silly Analysts' ESTIMATES TO BE from Around 1 Million to 3~4 Million at ITS BEST!


THEY (Analysts) HAVE BEEN REALLY SUCH " BLIND " , Compared With The ORDINARY PEOPLE'S INSTINKT OF SNIFFING " FUTURE "!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOW Still DARE THEY Claim ThemSelves TO BE " ANALYST "?????????


MY Guess of SALES of i-Pad 2011 IS " 5 Million A Month " AS WELL AS i-Phone EVEN Without Inaugulation of i-Pad 2!!!!!!!!!!!

B

Don't be too hard on the analysts -- they are preaching to the only choir that will follow them!

I was with you, when the analysts estimated total tablet sales for 2010 would be 10.5 million units -- I predicted that 10 million of those would be iPads! I was way low!

I think your estimates of 7 million a month are attainable -- even without an iPad 2 announcement.

What has to happen is:

-- mass purchases by households - 1 per family member and several dedicated to specific uses
-- mass acceptance by education at all levels
-- mass acceptance by enterprise/organizational groups - medical, government, supermarkets, etc.

This is the biggie:

-- mass acceptance by mom & pop small businesses - restaurants, dry cleaners, pet stores...


It's gonna' happen!

.
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post #87 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

I think we have a situation here whereby RIM culture is so built up on business and the style, ethics and drive of "the suits". Interestingly, the product has attracted a following on the strength of some of its features. The question is, can RIM stay relevant and update itself for both markets? I would suggest they create a sub-brand. Just like Poppy under Coach. That should be what they are focusing on, not trying to play catch-up with a tablet that may or may not have good business use until a year from now... Though I would like to see the Blackpad gain traction, there just aren't enough iPads to go around in global usage even through end of next year!

1. BlackBerry's enterprise features sell themselves to businesses. Of course RIM should continue to develop the enterprise side of BlackBerry. That's a major bit of RIM's identity as a company. But I think that one thing you don't quite understand is that the teens will care about none of the enterprise features in a BlackBerry. They don't care, and they don't have to, because all of those features stay deeply in the background and don't get in the way of their own user experience (which is primarily BBM and Facebook-driven).

So this whole thing of creating a kids-oriented sub-brand is unneccessary, both in marketing costs and R&D. Microsoft tried this with Kin, and it failed. I believe it's primarily because they didn't follow the "Pixar Theorem". What is that? Well, basically, Pixar movies are known as being incredibly entertaining for adults, as much as they are for even the younger kids out there. One of the Pixar execs was interviewed a while back, and asked why that was. His response: "We don't make movies for kids." He explained that they make movies for themselves, then take out anything objectionable to kids. Furthermore, he said that kids aren't as stupid as many people think.

What BlackBerry offers is Pixar in a phone. Teens get something; adults get it, too, but also have a bunch of other stuff, just for them. But that's all on the same device, with the same OS. Microsoft didn't try that with Kin.

BBM sells itself to kids, once they see it and use it. BBM works fine with the current RIM phones. Get kids into BlackBerry/BBM as kids, watch them become adults, then see them stay with BlackBerry as they grow into those enterprise features (which were always there), helping them in their newfound careers! In other words, let BlackBerry be whatever the user wants it to be. This process currently is seamless.

2. The focus on tablets is absolutely a necessity for RIM. Gosh, the dinosaur known as RIM gets it more than Microsoft does! Go read this thread again, and see if you can re-evaluate the point of tablets. Read (or re-read) my post about connection between Microsoft and IBM. This is a huge emerging market that is scratching the surface on what it can do. Google and Apple are already in the market. RIM needs to get into this market ASAP, and so does Microsoft (even though MS doesn't know it, yet). I can't blame RIM for focusing on what they are.

Quote:
It will take some time, but by middle to late next year iOS 5 will probably have iPad and iPhone untethered and non-forced OTA upgrades and some free cloud backup services. iPhone 5 probably will come with MobileMe Lite or something... Maybe.

An interesting question, that I don't have the answer to: How will Apple be able to minimize the number of OTA updates, and therefore the strain on cell carriers? Will OTA updates and MobileMe Lite require WiFi? Will they only be available after, say, 15 days of availability? Will there still be the option to do it wired, via iTunes, once the OTA dialog appears?
post #88 of 116
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Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

As in, "I'm not an analyst, but I play one on TV. I also offer MBA degrees..."

I'll take two!
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post #89 of 116
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Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Remember the line from the introduction event in 2007 when Steve said re: the iPhone touch interface? ...... "and we have patents, boy, do we have patents".

It still doesn't keep someone from building a car control system around iOS devices. Free app for you Nissan in the app store. Don't own an iOS device? There's an accessory package with one included. Why not? IOS is certainly better and more capable platform than the embedded systems currently being used in many cars.
post #90 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

With less than a full year of iPad sales behind them I think it's premature to say it's a mature market. In 3 to 5 years maybe, but that still leaves a lot of time for various competitors to get into the mix. I don't think anyone is going to catch Apple anytime soon, if ever. .... just my 2¢

I was referring mainly to phones - but since the iPad is "just" a big iPod Touch I would consider it far more mature than any of the iPad killers. That still aren't shipping.

The only company that isn't being totally reactionary is HP - and even their moves are mostly reactionary (and not shipping either).
post #91 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

and once he was exposed to the GUI that Apple was working on .... windows was developed and at that point with, or without IBM I'm sure Gates would have found a way to sell his OS. In any case the whole deal was beneficial to both IBM and MSF.

Actually, MS screwed IBM - they "partnered" with IBM on OS/2 while secretly also working on windows. Once Windows was to a good enough point they left IBM high and dry.

The fact that companies are still willing to sign up to resell things like Windows Phone 7 still boggles my mind (plays for sure being one of the latest abusing of "partners" that carries on this fine tradition).
post #92 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landcruiser View Post

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me, the iPad will always be "add-on" device, not a replacement. Am I missing something?

Always is a long time. They may not support it today, but it's not a stretch to assume that one day Apple couldn't support a stand alone cloud based iPad. They have to be planning something for that huge data center.
post #93 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by HIMIKO View Post


HOW Still DARE THEY Claim ThemSelves TO BE " ANALYST "?????????


MY Guess of SALES of i-Pad 2011 IS " 5 Million A Month " AS WELL AS i-Phone EVEN Without Inaugulation of i-Pad 2!!!!!!!!!!!

IF i-Pad 2 COMES, OVERALL SALES of i-Pad COULD REACH " 7 MILLION A Month "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope you are right!

BTW is there a problem with your exclamation and question mark keys?
post #94 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemikeb;

An interesting question, that I don't have the answer to: How will Apple be able to minimize the number of OTA updates, and therefore the strain on cell carriers? Will OTA updates and MobileMe Lite require WiFi? Will they only be available after, say, 15 days of availability? Will there still be the option to do it wired, via iTunes, once the OTA dialog appears?

MobileMe Lite could be cellular and wifi like MobileMe now. OTA updates would be wifi only. iTunes will still definitely be allowed for more extensive backup and such.
post #95 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Actually, MS screwed IBM - they "partnered" with IBM on OS/2 while secretly also working on windows. Once Windows was to a good enough point they left IBM high and dry.

The fact that companies are still willing to sign up to resell things like Windows Phone 7 still boggles my mind (plays for sure being one of the latest abusing of "partners" that carries on this fine tradition).

A number of years ago, the chairman of AT&T said that "Bill Gates can be your partner and be your enemy at the same time."
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post #96 of 116
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Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Actually, MS screwed IBM - they "partnered" with IBM on OS/2 while secretly also working on windows. Once Windows was to a good enough point they left IBM high and dry.

The fact that companies are still willing to sign up to resell things like Windows Phone 7 still boggles my mind (plays for sure being one of the latest abusing of "partners" that carries on this fine tradition).

it wasn't really that MS screwed ibm, ibm did it to themselves. they wanted the os tied to their hardware so that you had to use ibm for everything. but dos ran on lots of non-ibm machines. the clones. and ms needed to sell to those as well, so windows 3.0.
clones and windows 3 were a big hit and the 'ibm only' strategy failed. so ms ditched os/2 and went whole hog with Windows.
that same idea is what would have dramatically changed maybe killed off apple back before jobs returned. cheap clones with apple os. why buy apple hardware? jobs stopped that first thing.
post #97 of 116
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Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

it wasn't really that MS screwed ibm, ibm did it to themselves. they wanted the os tied to their hardware so that you had to use ibm for everything. but dos ran on lots of non-ibm machines. the clones. and ms needed to sell to those as well, so windows 3.0.
clones and windows 3 were a big hit and the 'ibm only' strategy failed. so ms ditched os/2 and went whole hog with Windows.
that same idea is what would have dramatically changed maybe killed off apple back before jobs returned. cheap clones with apple os. why buy apple hardware? jobs stopped that first thing.

IBM first tried to reclaim control of their hardware platform with Micro Channel. Good technology, poorly implemented. But it's pretty apparent that Microsoft screwed IBM with OS/2, probably with forethought. They partnered with IBM to develop the technology, saying publicly that the were totally committed to OS/2, then bugged out in a hurry when Windows 3.0 took off. Probably that was the plan all along. Some of the OS/2 technology turned up in WindowsNT. IBM had lots of faults at the time, but topping the list was trusting Bill Gates.
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post #98 of 116
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Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

IBM first tried to reclaim control of their hardware platform with Micro Channel. Good technology, poorly implemented. But it's pretty apparent that Microsoft screwed IBM with OS/2, probably with forethought. They partnered with IBM to develop the technology, saying publicly that the were totally committed to OS/2, then bugged out in a hurry when Windows 3.0 took off. Probably that was the plan all along. Some of the OS/2 technology turned up in WindowsNT. IBM had lots of faults at the time, but topping the list was trusting Bill Gates.

everyone blames bill gates. what was ms to do? develop an os that ibm clearly wanted to control and then allow ibm to dump ms or at best be the developer of an ibm only os?
ibm wanted control of the os and the hardware. ms just did what it had to do to stay relevant and make money. ibm was trying to do the same, they failed. so i don't see it as ms was 'plotting' to screw ibm.
post #99 of 116
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Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

everyone blames bill gates. what was ms to do? develop an os that ibm clearly wanted to control and then allow ibm to dump ms or at best be the developer of an ibm only os?
ibm wanted control of the os and the hardware. ms just did what it had to do to stay relevant and make money. ibm was trying to do the same, they failed. so i don't see it as ms was 'plotting' to screw ibm.

I'm not sure I understand your point. It's not a matter of blame. Assume both companies were "plotting" to control their markets. I do. It's only natural. The point I am making here is that more than one company found out to their chagrin that Bill & Co. would pledge partnership and then work feverishly behind the scenes to undermine them. Sometimes they partnered for no other reason than to use their partnership access to snuff a potential competitor. It took awhile but Microsoft developed a reputation as an untrustworthy partner. When companies didn't need them as much, they looked elsewhere for partnerships. I think Microsoft is still trying to live down their reputation as an unreliable partner, which goes back to incidents like their handling of IBM and OS/2.
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post #100 of 116
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Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I'm not sure I understand your point. It's not a matter of blame. Assume both companies were "plotting" to control their markets. I do. It's only natural. The point I am making here is that more than one company found out to their chagrin that Bill & Co. would pledge partnership and then work feverishly behind the scenes to undermine them. Sometimes they partnered for no other reason than to use their partnership access to snuff a potential competitor. It took awhile but Microsoft developed a reputation as an untrustworthy partner. When companies didn't need them as much, they looked elsewhere for partnerships. I think Microsoft is still trying to live down their reputation as an unreliable partner, which goes back to incidents like their handling of IBM and OS/2.

maybe. i really don't know what all went on behind the scenes.
all i know is that if it weren't for the clones and windows i wouldn't have had a computer for myself for a much longer period of time. i love the mac. thought it was the coolest thing ever but i couldn't afford one. clones were cheaper and you could add all sorts of things, upgrade components from many different companies. i really didn't dislike ms until IE and killing netscape.
post #101 of 116
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Originally Posted by Newtron View Post

He has also stated many times that the iPad is magical.

We also know nothing is magical (at least from Apple) for you

If Apple were purely profit motivated then gee.... they would be like everyone else kicking out mediocre products with minimal end user focus.

Since they aren't like every other manufacturer, there probably is more than a kernel of truth to the statement.
post #102 of 116
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Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

maybe. i really don't know what all went on behind the scenes.
all i know is that if it weren't for the clones and windows i wouldn't have had a computer for myself for a much longer period of time. i love the mac. thought it was the coolest thing ever but i couldn't afford one. clones were cheaper and you could add all sorts of things, upgrade components from many different companies. i really didn't dislike ms until IE and killing netscape.

I think you would have disliked Microsoft far sooner if you'd known what they were doing to create and preserve their market dominance. I also can't agree with the proposition that Microsoft had anything to do with cloning and were in any way responsible for the commodity pricing of hardware. This was the fault of IBM. What was created, essentially by accident, was a market with lots of participants but one where a single company made the lion's share of the profit. Had the market been more diverse (i.e., healthier), prices to consumers overall would have been lower, not higher. As it happened, PC clone hardware prices might have been driven down, but at the same time, PC buyers were paying monopoly rents to Microsoft.

As for precisely what happened behind the scenes with IBM, we'll probably never know (just as we'll never hear the complete story about how IBM chose Microsoft to produce DOS), but we witnessed Microsoft shafting partners often enough over the years to get the general drift.
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post #103 of 116
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Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I think you would have disliked Microsoft far sooner if you'd known what they were doing to create and preserve their market dominance. I also can't agree with the proposition that Microsoft had anything to do with cloning and were in any way responsible for the commodity pricing of hardware. This was the fault of IBM. What was created, essentially by accident, was a market with lots of participants but one where a single company made the lion's share of the profit. Had the market been more diverse (i.e., healthier), prices to consumers overall would have been lower, not higher. As it happened, PC clone hardware prices might have been driven down, but at the same time, PC buyers were paying monopoly rents to Microsoft.

As for precisely what happened behind the scenes with IBM, we'll probably never know (just as we'll never hear the complete story about how IBM chose Microsoft to produce DOS), but we witnessed Microsoft shafting partners often enough over the years to get the general drift.


i didn't say ms did the cloning. i said the clones ran dos. ibm choosing to use off the shelf parts that allowed people to recreate and sell a machine clone (well, they reverse engineered the ibm BIOS).
allowed the clones to happen.
totally disagree with your 'diverse' statements. lets see what happens in the smartphone market in a few years and see if you are right. think someone will come out of that with the bigger piece of the pie?
post #104 of 116
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Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

i didn't say ms did the cloning. i said the clones ran dos. ibm choosing to use off the shelf parts that allowed people to recreate and sell a machine clone (well, they reverse engineered the ibm BIOS).
allowed the clones to happen.
totally disagree with your 'diverse' statements. lets see what happens in the smartphone market in a few years and see if you are right. think someone will come out of that with the bigger piece of the pie?

IBM had no intention of creating a generic hardware platform. As you know, they intended to protect it from duplication with the copyrighted ROM-BIOS. Even so, the clones could have run any number of operating systems. In fact they did, but Microsoft used a variety of anticompetitive tactics to run the alternatives out of the market. And this was good for consumers, how exactly?

Diversity is the result of competition, which is always a good thing. It's how efficient markets for goods work. Someone may come out with the biggest slice of the pie in any competitive market, but not the sort of 95% dominance of the PC that Microsoft was gifted virtually from the very start. Everyone seems to be looking for a repeat of the Microsoft phenomenon, as though total dominance of any market by one player is good or inevitable. Fortunately, in fact, it is rare. It would be difficult to name another one like it.
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post #105 of 116
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Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

IBM had no intention of creating a generic hardware platform. As you know, they intended to protect it from duplication with the copyrighted ROM-BIOS. Even so, the clones could have run any number of operating systems. In fact they did, but Microsoft used a variety of anticompetitive tactics to run the alternatives out of the market. And this was good for consumers, how exactly?

Diversity is the result of competition, which is always a good thing. It's how efficient markets for goods work. Someone may come out with the biggest slice of the pie in any competitive market, but not the sort of 95% dominance of the PC that Microsoft was gifted virtually from the very start. Everyone seems to be looking for a repeat of the Microsoft phenomenon, as though total dominance of any market by one player is good or inevitable. Fortunately, in fact, it is rare. It would be difficult to name another one like it.

first you need to prove ms used anticompetitive tactics to run the others out of business. i looked at the history of the amiga and find no mention of that type of thing. what about the others?
post #106 of 116
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Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

first you need to prove ms used anticompetitive tactics to run the others out of business.

Missed that whole convicted monopolist and operating under a consent decree thing, eh?
post #107 of 116
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Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Missed that whole convicted monopolist and operating under a consent decree thing, eh?

yes, put a link or some valid data on here so i can see it. i didn't know that went on during the early years with amiga os and the other oses of the period. thanks,

i looked around. i found the famous trial info from 2000. if that is what you mean then you aren't paying attention to what i am talking about.
post #108 of 116
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Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

first you need to prove ms used anticompetitive tactics to run the others out of business. i looked at the history of the amiga and find no mention of that type of thing. what about the others?

See U.S. v Microsoft, for starters, which was the direct result of an earlier Consent Decree. Not sure what else to do, short of explaining the entire thing.

Where does Amiga come into this?
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post #109 of 116
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Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

See U.S. v Microsoft, for starters, which was the direct result of an earlier Consent Decree. Not sure what else to do, short of explaining the entire thing.

Where does Amiga come into this?

where does amiga come into this? where does apple come into this or any other of the early competitors? <sarcasm>..... never mind you are skewing the time tables to match your chatter.

i am not talking about netscape and windows i thought we were talking about competition in the early days where you claimed ms was using illegal means to squash them.
post #110 of 116
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Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

where does amiga come into this? where does apple come into this or any other of the early competitors? <sarcasm>..... never mind you are skewing the time tables to match your chatter.

i am not talking about netscape and windows i thought we were talking about competition in the early days where you claimed ms was using illegal means to squash them.

Sarcasm is not conducive to discussion.

I did not mention Apple or Amiga in this context, because they are not immediately relevant. No timelines are being skewed. What I am relating is Microsoft's use of anticompetitive means to lock up the PC platform. One technique in particular which they used to great effect was the so-called CPU tax. Beginning in the mid-1980s at least, a Microsoft OEM had to pay them a license fee for every CPU they sold, whether or not it was loaded with a Microsoft OS. This tactic put all other OSs at an immediate competitive disadvantage. In a Consent Decree, Microsoft agreed to stop doing that bad thing. Then they found other ways to keep the OEMs in line. Which led to an investigation at the FTC, which led to U.S. v Microsoft. The Findings of Fact included a litany of their antitrust law violations -- check this document out sometime, you might find it illuminating.

So, if you want to talk about Apple in this context, they do figure in at least as an example of Microsoft's power and how they wielded it. During the late '80s - early '90s timeframe, Apple was developing a version of MacOS for the PC platform. You might have heard of this, it was called Project Star Trek. In the depositions in the government's case against Microsoft, Apple execs testified that Project Star Trek was abandoned in part due to Apple's inability to work with any of the OEMs, which had been brought to heal by Microsoft in a variety of ways, including the one described above.
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post #111 of 116
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Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Sarcasm is not conducive to discussion.

I did not mention Apple or Amiga in this context, because they are not immediately relevant. No timelines are being skewed. What I am relating is Microsoft's use of anticompetitive means to lock up the PC platform. One technique in particular which they used to great effect was the so-called CPU tax. Beginning in the mid-1980s at least, a Microsoft OEM had to pay them a license fee for every CPU they sold, whether or not it was loaded with a Microsoft OS. This tactic put all other OSs at an immediate competitive disadvantage. In a Consent Decree, Microsoft agreed to stop doing that bad thing. Then they found other ways to keep the OEMs in line. Which led to an investigation at the FTC, which led to U.S. v Microsoft. The Findings of Fact included a litany of their antitrust law violations -- check this document out sometime, you might find it illuminating.

So, if you want to talk about Apple in this context, they do figure in at least as an example of Microsoft's power and how they wielded it. During the late '80s - early '90s timeframe, Apple was developing a version of MacOS for the PC platform. You might have heard of this, it was called Project Star Trek. In the depositions in the government's case against Microsoft, Apple execs testified that Project Star Trek was abandoned in part due to Apple's inability to work with any of the OEMs, which had been brought to heal by Microsoft in a variety of ways, including the one described above.


so if ms was being so naughty and keeping poor companies down (like apple...wait, you could buy an apple without an oem and without dealing with ms couldn't you?) then after they lost and were ordered to stop why didn't they lose ground? why did companies like the one i work at rid themselves of macs and go all windows? pressure from ms? pressure from oem?
not trying to say windows is great or ms is wonderful just i don't buy the whole 'ms is top dog because they break the law and are unethical and evil etc.'
post #112 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

so if ms was being so naughty and keeping poor companies down (like apple...wait, you could buy an apple without an oem and without dealing with ms couldn't you?) then after they lost and were ordered to stop why didn't they lose ground? why did companies like the one i work at rid themselves of macs and go all windows? pressure from ms? pressure from oem?
not trying to say windows is great or ms is wonderful just i don't buy the whole 'ms is top dog because they break the law and are unethical and evil etc.'

I am simply describing what happened, because you asked. Maybe you only asked because you didn't think I had an answer. I don't know. You seem to accept that what Microsoft did to Netscape was wrong, and somehow changed your opinion about the company. What I am telling you is, all of these anticompetitive shenanigans were going on long before Netscape, and it happened to a lot of other companies. Those of us who knew what they were doing changed our opinions about Microsoft long ago.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #113 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I am simply describing what happened, because you asked. Maybe you only asked because you didn't think I had an answer. I don't know. You seem to accept that what Microsoft did to Netscape was wrong, and somehow changed your opinion about the company. What I am telling you is, all of these anticompetitive shenanigans were going on long before Netscape, and it happened to a lot of other companies. Those of us who knew what they were doing changed our opinions about Microsoft long ago.

i wasn't aware of the 1994 decree and the oem 'license'. i am not saying that ms hasn't done some dodgy things (and they aren't the only one apparently).
it was a tiring day and i was tired. sorry for not seeing your point.
post #114 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

i wasn't aware of the 1994 decree and the oem 'license'. i am not saying that ms hasn't done some dodgy things (and they aren't the only one apparently).
it was a tiring day and i was tired. sorry for not seeing your point.

Not a problem. We all have days like that.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #115 of 116
It's October 4, 2010. If I was an analyst I would really be wondering where the heck all those iPad international launches are at. What happened to them? Seriously.
post #116 of 116
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Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

But RIM doesn't have the software chops like ... They need security for their tablet,customization etc.

one of the chief reasons RIM is so successful with their Blackberry, in the corporate world, is their encryption / security layer.
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