or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Mercedes fuel cell car - one step closer
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Mercedes fuel cell car - one step closer

post #1 of 49
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/service/magazin/technik_002_1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/service/magazin/technik_002_1.htm</a> for details about the car.

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/05/fuel.cell.cars.ap/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/05/fuel.cell.cars.ap/index.html</a> this is about it going cross country.

The article states that the methanol fuel lasted about 300 miles. That's more than my wifes Saturn can do. Like all new technologies (transportation releated) it will start out on government and mass transit systems such as mail trucks and transit busses, and filter down to normal cars. The article says 2010 is optimistic though. Hopefully for our sake and the sake of the environment we step it up even sooner.

edit: That's 300 miles per tank full, not 300 miles total. Obviously it was refueled many times crossing the states.

[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: Outsider ]</p>
post #2 of 49
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong><a href="http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/service/magazin/technik_002_1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/service/magazin/technik_002_1.htm</a> for details about the car.

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/05/fuel.cell.cars.ap/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/05/fuel.cell.cars.ap/index.html</a> this is about it going cross country.

The article states that the methanol fuel lasted about 300 miles. That's more than my wifes Saturn can do. Like all new technologies (transportation releated) it will start out on government and mass transit systems such as mail trucks and transit busses, and filter down to normal cars. The article says 2010 is optimistic though. Hopefully for our sake and the sake of the environment we step it up even sooner.

edit: That's 300 miles per tank full, not 300 miles total. Obviously it was refueled many times crossing the states.

[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: Outsider ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I hope that this is sooner than we hope. We need transportation of this nature now. Even though the US is not that dependent on oil, we have to set the trend toward vehicles like these. It could set us ahead of everyone. Of course the oil barons (Bush...et al) will delay these inovations until they can invest their oil money into them. Also, we have to wake up the general public to these. Gonna be hard to wake up all the soccar moms and RV fools we have in this country... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
Reply
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
Reply
post #3 of 49
Thread Starter 
Well you know that fuel cells can work off of gasoline right? it just doesn't burn it like in an IC engine. It reforms it (extracts the hydrogen) from the molecules and uses that hydrogen combined with oxygen from the atmosphere to produce electricity. That byproduct is water. other by-products can be stored since they are not burned, and disposed of at a refilling station as you pump fuel. It's very adaptive. You can use gasoline, ethanol, or methanol. You can even design a cell that can use all 3.
post #4 of 49
What's the cost per mile to run it? If it's more then it will fail. No ones going to buy a car that cost them more money on "gas".
post #5 of 49
Hmm... it would be great iff every gas station in America had a liquid H2 dispenser next to the gasoline dispensers.

If the fuel tank is properly separated from the passenger space, te nthere's nothing to worry about explsions.

Of course, a new fleet of H2 trucks will have to be made. They have to be refrigerated.

I wonder - you'd probably have to kleep the fuel cell running ALL the time just to run the refrigeration unit around the H2 tank. That's not so bad - hey, if you've got a big enough tank, ou can put friggin AC OUTLETS in your car! Cool!
post #6 of 49
[quote]Originally posted by cdhostage:
<strong>Hmm... it would be great iff every gas station in America had a liquid H2 dispenser next to the gasoline dispensers.

If the fuel tank is properly separated from the passenger space, te nthere's nothing to worry about explsions.

Of course, a new fleet of H2 trucks will have to be made. They have to be refrigerated.

I wonder - you'd probably have to kleep the fuel cell running ALL the time just to run the refrigeration unit around the H2 tank. That's not so bad - hey, if you've got a big enough tank, ou can put friggin AC OUTLETS in your car! Cool!</strong><hr></blockquote>

My understanding is that the amount of H2 is not that grreat in a fuel cell. It does not tke much to make it work. That is why it is much more efficient right now to just extract it rather than store pure H2. Besides, methanol can be created quite easily. Shoot, you can use corn for fuel in these properly distilled. Lord n=know we have enough of it, and it would really help out the midwest if we did.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #7 of 49
[quote]Originally posted by scott_h_phd:
<strong>What's the cost per mile to run it? If it's more then it will fail. No ones going to buy a car that cost them more money on "gas".</strong><hr></blockquote>

you are right ,this technology has better chance to be release in EU rather than US due to the terrible prize of fuel in europe (overtaxed :the prize of the liter is the prize of a gallon of fuel in US)
post #8 of 49
Thread Starter 
Depend what fuel you use. You can get away with some very low octane grade gasoline. All you want is something with hydrogen that can be easily reformed. Even ethanol can be made from corn. The US has plenty of space for corn fields. I tried finding the size of the tank but coun't. Can't be that big, did you see the size of the car? it's a hatchback!

<a href="http://www.ssu.missouri.edu/publications/policy/1997/vandyne.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ssu.missouri.edu/publications/policy/1997/vandyne.htm</a> this is from 1997 so it's not too out of date.

<a href="http://www.fsa.usda.gov/daco/bioenergy/2002ConversionFactorsPmtFormulas.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.fsa.usda.gov/daco/bioenergy/2002ConversionFactorsPmtFormulas.pdf</a> this is other stuff we can make ethanol out of and how much it can produce.

Ethanol is about $1.50 - $1.75 per gallon. And we can ramp up production when ever we want. The sooner we can tell the MidEast to fork off the better. Screw this dependency on foreign oil. Lets be self sufficient.

[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: Outsider ]</p>
post #9 of 49
Since the conversation seems to be concerned with the USA largely so far, I thought I would chip in with this.

Many of the worlds fuel and pollution problems are largely down to Americans and their cars. To illustrate the point, I will compare my view of America, to Europe. In Europe people drive smaller, better packaged cars - small on the outside, big on the inside, with more economical engines. Our family car (which is incidentally also a Mercedes - an estate), is large and roomy, but still returns 35mpg+ most weeks. This is the same throughout most of Europe, with small city cars being very popular as well for their high mpg ratings.

In America however, my perception is that people choose to drive everywhere in large 4x4 cars, averaging about 15mpg! Why? Because of low fuel costs. If this is to change, Americans need to wake up, and move from their 4x4s into something a little more ozone friendly and economical. Why don't they do this? Because fuel is so cheap they don't need to.

I feel that it will take a petrol (gas for you guys ) price rise, before you change. Come on guys, wake up and buy an economical car! I doesn't hurt a bit!

When petrol prices do eventually rise then I think that America will begin to look more seriosuly at H2 cars etc, but until then, it looks like it will remain at 15mpg fuel guzzlers for you!

That's my feelings anyway, sorry if I am steroetyping a bit, but I am slightly right am I not? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Graeme D Warren
Reply
Graeme D Warren
Reply
post #10 of 49
Alternative fuel cars need fuel stations. Gasoline/electric hybrids are the first step. Honda and Toyota make a few models between them, and they're 'OK,' but not that special. The Civic Hybrid with automatic transmission gets 48/47 MPG or so. Some of the pure gasoline driven Civics approach 40 MPG for highway driving...

The Toyota Prius gets 52 city and 45 highway MPG...

The first car I buy out of my own pocket will probably be a gas/electric hybrid. We'll need these to help break our dependency on gasoline before we start seeing fuel-cell and other clean-air vehicles driving around in thralls.
I can change my sig again!
Reply
I can change my sig again!
Reply
post #11 of 49
Thread Starter 
I have a pretty effiecient car (30mpg). It's a VW Passat. My next car is the Hybrid Civic from honda. I've already seen many on the highway here in traffic ridden Connecticut. 50mpg is just too appealing to me. i have a 30 mile commuet to work back and forth every day. this will save me money. it they had Fuel cell cars that ran with fuel that is easy to get then people would be getting them. hell even SUV's can be made using fuel cells. You can get a pretty powerful electric motor you know. I'm afraid though, it will take some governement regulations to get people to get some ecologically sound cars. But if that's what it takes.
post #12 of 49
Right now hybrid cars etc are only economically viable if you do a high mileage. This price savings per mile aren't great, just good, so you need to do a high mileage to make up for the initial high cost.

When the cost of the technology falls as technology progresses in a few years, hybrid cars etc will become more viable for more people.

In the mean-time, other clever technology will do for the rest of us. Mercedes is doing cool stuff like shutting off half of its v12 engines when not all of the power is needed - saves fuel and pollution, and no-one notices the difference! This kind of solution is ideal until we find a longer term solution and H2 and other technology is a feasible option.
Graeme D Warren
Reply
Graeme D Warren
Reply
post #13 of 49
There are many reasons why us Americans buy big cars. One is that people like the security (sometimes false) that comes with owning a bigger car. The US is more spread out, even in the cities, so we don't have to pack all our SUV's into a tight place. Americans like to actually be able to move their bodies when in a car, we don't like being packed like sardines. Here in the NW, people like to go to the mountains and like to have 4 wheel drive.
Anyway, the fuel cell and oil thing is not a Republican/Oil Co. vs. Everyone else debate. It is about practicality. We cannot instantly convert over to a brand new system. The technology costs WAY more on these alternative fuel cars. A hybrid Civic for instance costs $5000+ more than a regular Civic. That $5000 takes several years to make back in gas savings. It really isn't economical to make everyone buy these cars right now. Hydrogen fuel cell cars also have a problem. GAS STATIONS DON'T SELL HYDROGEN. You can't sell the cars until the gas stations are converted. This would take countless years. Also, the speed and performance of these cars, at least hybrids, is too poor to make sport sedans, midsize/large SUV's, etc.
I have a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell.
Reply
I have a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell.
Reply
post #14 of 49
BTW, just thought I'd point out that Gallons in EU are bigger than the US Gallon, just as the EU pint (20oz) is bigger than the US pint (a lowly 16 oz).

Also BTW, I get +90 (EU) Miles per gallon on my 1979 Vespa 100cc scooter, which tops out at 70-80 km/h (50mph?)
No, the bazaar cannot satisfy users. Neither can the cathedral. Nothing can satisfy users, because software is written to enable rather than satisfy, and because most users are mewling malcontents...
Reply
No, the bazaar cannot satisfy users. Neither can the cathedral. Nothing can satisfy users, because software is written to enable rather than satisfy, and because most users are mewling malcontents...
Reply
post #15 of 49
And here I am praying for V8s to make a comeback in the 'average' car. These four/six cylinder cars just SUCK!

V8s are coooool. And sound so much better than those rice-burning little tinny sounding laughable looking import cars with twinkle toes paint jobs.
Nov 98 - Earliest Registered User on record
Jan 02 - Earliest iPad prediction
Reply
Nov 98 - Earliest Registered User on record
Jan 02 - Earliest iPad prediction
Reply
post #16 of 49
I like these V8s...
<a href="http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/adm/MOV00094.MPG" target="_blank">http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/adm/MOV00094.MPG</a> (1.3 MB)

2.35L turbocharged V8s producing in excess of 900 HP at 17000 RPM. Too bad they'll be history next year...

The roar of a Champcar completely destroys the high pitched whine of an F1 or the low-pitched rumble of an Indy car.

Yes, that roar at the end belongs to that single car that you see entering the hairpin.

[ 06-07-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
I can change my sig again!
Reply
I can change my sig again!
Reply
post #17 of 49
Sorry to say, but I think we won't get off gasoline for a minimum of 50 years. I would say 75 is more practical.

I agree we need to. But it ain't gonna happen for awhile.

[quote]Many of the worlds fuel and pollution problems are largely down to Americans and their cars <hr></blockquote>

Pollution perhaps, but fuel problems, what does that mean?

[quote]Americans need to wake up, and move from their 4x4s into something a little more ozone friendly <hr></blockquote>

Last time I checked, Ozone is being PRODUCED by car pollution.

Though, I agree we won't reduce cosumption until we have to. Also keep in mind that as one poster said, things are WAY more spread out here. Remember our country is 3,000 miles across, not a hundred. I am moving 26 miles from work in July. And our public transit SUCKS ASS.......don't forget that.

I also agree....we like BIG stuff. Big cars, Big macs (burgers and comps), big bombs, etc. Also, big breasted women are nice too.

Oh, and BTW, 15mpg isn't bad if you are talking something like a GMC Yukon. Try 8mpg.....now that's gotta suck.

[ 06-07-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #18 of 49
[quote] Also, big breasted women are nice too. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah, Nancy is sooooo flat.
Mr. Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!
Reply
Mr. Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!
Reply
post #19 of 49
OK ,back on topic please.

The real question is not dollars per gallon but DOLLARS PER MILE!

Granted, internal combustion engines have been tinkered with so much... a good fuel-efficient car cna go quite a distance on a gallon. nevermind those funky expensive cars that weigh so little you could lift them alone, a regular car could reach 50 mpg. That's $1.10 in my town for 50 miles.

Give an H2 car 10 years to be tinkered with. Efficiencies and eerthing can go up.


Now there's the problem with the logic of the naysayers - EVERY FUEL IS CONVERTED SUNLIGHT except nuclear fuels. And technically they came out of supernovas anyway
Oil is old dinos.
Coal is old plants.
Natgas is the heady stuff that comes out of piles of the last two.

All of these dervied their original energy from SUNGLIGHT!

Thus, these systems could work:

Electrolysis of water from an electrical source - preferably directly from solar. Or you can take from another - finish up the fossil reserves, then turn to something better. Fusion only works on a BIG scale. That's why it hasn't succeeded yet - they need bigger tests.

Solar energy converted into chemical energy in corn orr another grain. Ferment it and you get easy source of H2.

Cow farms - do oyu know mhow much methane cows burp and fart each day? How many steaks did you eat this month? And how much milk? Gotta be a lotta cows. If they're kept indoors then the methane can be collected
post #20 of 49
The champcar in the video above also runs on methanol...but it gets at best 2.4 MPG during a race.
I can change my sig again!
Reply
I can change my sig again!
Reply
post #21 of 49
Matsu sheds a pre-emptive tear for the internal combustion engine. Whither the two-wheeled glory of a properly tuned twin, triple, or, heck, even a four, motivating two wheels across the open road. Cars? Apart from AWD dirt and gravel chewing rally monsters, rather boring. Must go out and ride the hell out of EX500 starter bike, and quickly move on up to something more stirring before politics and technology dull the roadscape forever more.

Then again, the sooner we can write off the arabs forever, the better. sob... I hear this might be good for the environment too! Ahh, the price of progress.
IBL!
Reply
IBL!
Reply
post #22 of 49
[quote]Originally posted by scott_h_phd:
<strong>What's the cost per mile to run it? If it's more then it will fail. No ones going to buy a car that cost them more money on "gas".</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> If only that were true...

I live in a town where most teenagers are given an SUV on their 16th birthday to drive all 3-10 miles to their high school. Well, they also go to malls, hang out at restaurants, and drive 80Mph on freeways. :eek: A typical fill-up is well over $50, but that doesn't matter with mom's credit card.

PS: I drive a Mit. Eclipse, which doesn't have enough mass to push these a$$holes off the road. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

(Just joking)

[ 06-13-2002: Message edited by: Ebby ]</p>
horrid misuse of cool technology
SSBA.COM
Reply
horrid misuse of cool technology
SSBA.COM
Reply
post #23 of 49
You got me there. But then again I'm looking to buy a Honda so I guess I'm not one of those SUV people. I guess people don't consider gas costs and environment when they buy. For example even I wont look at the new Honda Hybrid.
post #24 of 49
Ozone is beneficial only when it is in the Stratoshere. . . . but when it is produced near the planet (in the Troposphere) it remains here and is very destructive to the environment, especially when it mixes with other gases released in combustion fuel emmisions.

nice try though . . .
(too much lobbyist's news and not enough real science i guess)
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #25 of 49
ozone ... aka smog
post #26 of 49
[quote]Originally posted by scott_h_phd:
<strong>You got me there. But then again I'm looking to buy a Honda so I guess I'm not one of those SUV people. I guess people don't consider gas costs and environment when they buy. For example even I wont look at the new Honda Hybrid.</strong><hr></blockquote>

why not. it's very nice.

personally, I like the insight too. can get a 2000 manual transmission model for arund 9500 now and get 70mpg
post #27 of 49
Some relevant statistics (rounded upwards):

The US currently devotes about 80 million acres to corn production, yielding about 10 billion bushels. About 620 million bushels are devoted to ethanol production, yielding 2 million gallons per year. (Note that the octane is above 130, which means it burns slowly, but does not reflect the energy content of the fuel.)

The annual gasoline sales in the US (all grades combined) is about 130 billion gallons.

The energy required to produce 1 cubic meter of hydrogen from the distillation of water is about 4.5 kW-h, yeilding less than 4 kW-h when burned in a fuel cell. 4.5 kW-h is the amount produced by 45 average size photovoltaic panels on a good day (in an area with a good amount of sunlight). (How much is your daily electrical usage?) These photovoltaic panels would cover approximately 400 cubic feet.
post #28 of 49
The big problem with CNG or Hydrogen as alternative fuels is safety. And one of the biggest safety issues would be refueling. You have to be able to dispense these fuels into the car safely. Say goodbye to self serve stations. You would need well-trained attendants to fuel your car. I'm okay with this but I just don't know. There are a lot of drunks and stupid people in the world. Would it be possible to keep them out of the fueling loop?
shooby doo, shooby doo
Reply
shooby doo, shooby doo
Reply
post #29 of 49
Thread Starter 
But that's the whole purpose of using a fuel that is liquid and extracting the H with a reformer. Any shmoe can do it.
post #30 of 49
[quote]Originally posted by scott_h_phd:
<strong>You got me there. But then again I'm looking to buy a Honda so I guess I'm not one of those SUV people. I guess people don't consider gas costs and environment when they buy. For example even I wont look at the new Honda Hybrid.</strong><hr></blockquote>I bought my Civic in 1996, and even though it was a "regular" car, it met some low-emission standard that they had previously thought only electrics or hybrids would be able to meet.
post #31 of 49
[quote]Originally posted by spaceman_spiff:
<strong>The big problem with CNG or Hydrogen as alternative fuels is safety. And one of the biggest safety issues would be refueling. You have to be able to dispense these fuels into the car safely. Say goodbye to self serve stations. You would need well-trained attendants to fuel your car. I'm okay with this but I just don't know. There are a lot of drunks and stupid people in the world. Would it be possible to keep them out of the fueling loop?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Naw I don't buy it. They can idiot proof almost anything these days. One standard connector that does not turn on unless a good seal is detected. It can be done.
post #32 of 49
BTW I bought my Honda. Should be ready next week sometime. While shopping I found about about this site.

<a href="http://www.fueleconomy.gov" target="_blank">http://www.fueleconomy.gov</a>

Kinda cool.

My car is 31/38. Am I a good global citizen? The one I'm replacing was just about the same.
post #33 of 49
Thread Starter 
31/38 is awesome for an IC.

Just watch out for those upper class suburban moms racing in the SUV's to go to their environmental rallies, aka hypocrite parades! Actions speak louder than words.
post #34 of 49
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>31/38 is awesome for an IC.

Just watch out for those upper class suburban moms racing in the SUV's to go to their environmental rallies, aka hypocrite parades! Actions speak louder than words.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good point about the hypocrites. I really don't care what car people drive but I can't stand those all-talk Liberals who preach environmentalism and drive an Excursion. Same goes for the "tree-huggers" that drive a VW Bus.
I have a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell.
Reply
I have a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell.
Reply
post #35 of 49
[quote] all-talk Liberals who preach environmentalism and drive an Excursion <hr></blockquote>You say this like its common . . . and I know that it is not. and the article quotes is just plain harping on something stupid... these people got a large group togather and rented a van . . not an SUV . . . let it rest its stupid.

and as for tree huggers who drive VWs. I know from having lived in Oregon that alot of the poeple that you reffer to, in your high school reactionary attitude towards them, are actually quite conservative in many of the things that they believe... when it comes to individual rights . . . not all the long haired VW drivers are the cliched "liberals" that you picture in your tiny head G4dude . . . in an other thread you mentioned "when I go to college" .. well when you do, I hope you study something that will challenge the little borders that you've drawn so defensably around yourself and not just business . . .because apparently, as is apparent in cases when you say "f*ck off and die" to artman" you need to grow up.,

[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #36 of 49
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>You say this like its common . . . and I know that it is not. and the article quotes is just plain harping on something stupid... these people got a large group togather and rented a van . . not an SUV . . . let it rest its stupid.

and as for tree huggers who drive VWs. I know from having lived in Oregon that alot of the poeple that you reffer to, in your high school reactionary attitude towards them, are actually quite conservative in many of the things that they believe... when it comes to individual rights . . . not all the long haired VW drivers are the cliched "liberals" that you picture in your tiny head G4dude . . . in an other thread you mentioned "when I go to college" .. well when you do, I hope you study something that will challenge the little borders that you've drawn so defensably around yourself and not just business . . .because apparently, as is apparent in cases when you say "f*ck off and die" to artman" you need to grow up.,

[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok. First of all, I never told artman to die. That would just be plain wrong. And for your info, I go to a VERY liberal school and have seen FIRST HAND the cars these people drive. Land Cruiser, Excursion, Suburban, Escalade, etc. So don't tell me what I know and what I don't know. I also happen to have a family friend that is a huge tree-hugger and he DOES drive a VW Bus. You CAN'T tell me he's the only one.

Oh and by the way, head size has nothing to do with intelligence. That has been proved. And just for the record though, my hat size is 7 5/8.
I have a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell.
Reply
I have a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell.
Reply
post #37 of 49
Buying more fuel efficient cars can't be that good for the environment when we do it every 3-4 years.

If a person buys/leases a new car every 4 years they will own a dozen or more cars in their lifetime. What's the total environmental cost of producing these vehicles and scrapping/recycling the older ones?

We might be better off (environmentally speaking) if everyone bought 2-3 cars in their lifetime and kept them each in good working order for 10-15 years each.

Environmentalism is being turned into just another consumerist marketing ploy.
IBL!
Reply
IBL!
Reply
post #38 of 49
I really don't think so. First of all, my own family hands down old cars to other people. Second, I don't imagine it takes that much electricity or diesel to compact and scrap a car. Just think about it...a sip of gas produces the same amount of energy in the form of a massive car crash.

So, recap.

1) Old cars often stay in circulation, meaning the choice of a new car is between a fuel sipper or an ultra-economical-sipper.

2) It definitely doesn't take much juice to scrap old cars.

P.S. Some of these old cars include an old Mercedes-Benz 300SD and 300TD. Massive diesel machines that get about 20 MPG...diesel is a bigger pollutant than gasoline though. And older cars have much worse emissions.
I can change my sig again!
Reply
I can change my sig again!
Reply
post #39 of 49
Not just scrapping the old car, but building the new ones too. Sorry, maybe I forgot to mention that.

Yes, older cars move down through the channel of cars, but the environment would still be better off if we bought less vehicles (in total) throughout our lives.

The used car buyer still buys too many cars in his/her motoring life. The new car buyers/leasers are still flooding the market with cheap used cars and the environmental costs of mass production are staggering. If new car buyers bought less cars (total) and kept them in good working order, used car buyers would also have less cheap cars to choose from, they would buy a few more new cars (and keep them longer), but still, for the most part, buy used cars (just less often, and later).

REDUCE, RE-USE, RECYCLE.

We're Okay at the last two, but we're not very good at all at the first.

HOWEVER, this would have MAJOR economic ramifications for which we are totally unprepared. I think we will come to this naturally (but never completely, just mildly) as cars get better and better and just last longer. Quality may end up reducing our vehicle spending simply because there's no need to buy a new car every 3-7 years. Consumerists will ALWAYS want a new toy, though.
IBL!
Reply
IBL!
Reply
post #40 of 49
The driving force of technology is demand. If people only bought 2 or 3 cars per lifetime then we'd have a lot of diesel puffers out there. We'd be lagging behind in technology, while still pushing cars down the assembly line. I still think the sum of all energy required to put a new fuel efficient car into somebody's driveway is less than that used up by an old clunker... (not even taking emissions and stuff.) I don't think I'd want my uncle to keep driving his old F-350 pick-up...it runs on leaded gasoline...which needs lead additive...
I can change my sig again!
Reply
I can change my sig again!
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Mercedes fuel cell car - one step closer