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Government is not the solution to our problem, it IS the problem - Page 7

post #241 of 560
8/20/11 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

What is selfish about freedom?

I think you need some serious reflection on that for yourself.

As an example: Are you married? If you go to your local bar and fuck another woman, isn't it your "freedom" to do so? But isn't it selfish? To restrict yourself from the right to fuck someone else, isn't that restricting your freedom?

If your wife says she will divorce you if you do that, isn't she "forcing" you to restrict you freedom?

In other words, freedom is not absolute. As it is with most things.
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post #242 of 560
8/20/11 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I think you need some serious reflection on that yourself.

Nice dodge.

Tonton why don't just be honest an admit that you're opposed to freedom and consider people who advocate for it to be simply selfless and uncaring.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #243 of 560
8/20/11 at 1:45pm
Thread Starter 
tonton, will you please answer my question?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #244 of 560
8/20/11 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

tonton, will you please answer my question?

I'm opposed to absolute freedom. I absolutely support freedom.

You don't have the freedom to kill someone.

You don't have the freedom to live in a society without paying taxes toward the development of that society. There's nowhere on Earth you can claim that freedom.

You should have the freedom to kill yourself if you can't live with those facts.
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post #245 of 560
8/20/11 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

tonton, will you please answer my question?

The above was MJ's question, I apologize.

I answered your question above.

To have the freedom to fuck another woman is selfish. That's something that's selfish about freedom. To claim the freedom to not pay any taxes in a society in which you benefit from things that require taxes is selfish. Full stop.
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post #246 of 560
8/20/11 at 1:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm opposed to absolute freedom. I absolutely support freedom.

You don't have the freedom to kill someone.

You don't have the freedom to live in a society without paying taxes toward the development of that society. There's nowhere on Earth you can claim that freedom.

You should have the freedom to kill yourself if you can't live with those facts.

"Freedom is a condition in which a person's ownership rights in his own body and his legitimate material property are not invaded, are not aggressed against." - Murray N. Rothbard

This is what freedom is to a libertarian.

So, of course I agree that you don't have the freedom to kill someone. But I disagree that taxation by a State (systemized plunder) is essential to the development of society.

And, with your suggestion that I kill myself if I disagree with your "facts", this conversation is over.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #247 of 560
8/20/11 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You don't have the freedom to kill someone.

Nice. No one is suggesting you have any such freedom or right.

The basic libertarian position is that you have the right to your life, liberty and property (and some logical derivatives from this such as the right to defend your self and your property from aggression and the right to freely trade your property however you see fit.)

You have the freedom to do what you want with your life, and property except where that freedom would infringe on those same basic rights of someone else.

You have no right to initiate force (defensive force is a right you have), aggression or coercion against someone else. This rule applies to everyone and every group including the government.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You don't have the freedom to live in a society without paying taxes toward the development of that society. There's nowhere on Earth you can claim that freedom.

Just so we're clear...this is merely your opinion not an irrefutable and indisputable fact.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #248 of 560
8/20/11 at 6:16pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Don't be obtuse, Jazzy. You are begging the question that what Ayn Rand stands for is the upper limit for freedom and anything beyond that no longer qualifies. Begging the question is a logical fallacy. You are attempting to reframe the debate by assuming your definitions of words are the generally accepted and agreed upon uses when in fact you are the extremist here.

And ironically, Ayn Rand hated religion and would look down upon your beliefs--she thought that religion was the antithesis of her ridiculous dogma.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #249 of 560
8/20/11 at 8:25pm
Thread Starter 
I suppose in today's world freedom is a bit extremist, isn't it?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #250 of 560
8/20/11 at 8:44pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
No. You are again begging the question. You are assuming your definition of freedom is the agreed upon one. And it's not. You don't believe in the social contract. That's a bit fucking extreme.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #251 of 560
8/20/11 at 8:49pm
Thread Starter 
What social contract?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #252 of 560
8/20/11 at 8:58pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
See what I mean.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #253 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:01pm
Thread Starter 
No seriously. Explain it to me.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #254 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:05pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Have you never actually studied or heard about the social contract?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #255 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:08pm
Thread Starter 
I'm asking you to explain it to me. Can you?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #256 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:09pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
And I'm asking you if you just want my explanation because you are interested in my interpretation or if you have legitimately never fucking heard of it before. Your initial response suggests the latter. Your last response suggests the former. You are being very vague and misleading.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #257 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:16pm
Thread Starter 
I want you to elaborate on the term "social contract".

This is the fourth time I've asked you. I don't know how I can be any clearer.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #258 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:18pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
And before I elaborate, I'd like to know if you are unfamiliar with the term or not. I don't know how I can be any fucking clearer.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #259 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:21pm
Thread Starter 
Irrelevant. Answer my question, or don't.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #260 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:25pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
I believe it is relevant. You are clearly being just as stubborn as I am right now. Except, what you are requesting of me may take quite a lot of typing while what I am asking of you is very little. A simple "yes" or "no" would suffice. Of course, if the answer is "yes," your first response to me makes very little sense. If the answer is "no," I don't understand why you couldn't have just said that so we could get on with things.

I'll admit I'm being stubborn on this point because I believe you are being disingenuous with your apparent lack of knowledge about the social contract when you said, "What social contract?" This isn't the first time that I have seen this behavior from you, either. It's a pattern that arises when the subject shifts to a topic that you are uncomfortable with.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #261 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:37pm
Thread Starter 
Yes, we're both being stubborn. I'll cave.

Yes, I am familiar with the "social contract" theory of the state. John Locke. Declaration of Independence. I get it.

Now, will you please elaborate?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #262 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:38pm
Just read the Wiki page, Jazz. BR, don't humor him. He's being deliberately obtuse.
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post #263 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:46pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
You choose to live in a society that offers many public services that are utterly vital to and inseparable from commerce. Those services cost money. Collectively we, as a society, pay for those services through taxation. By living and using those services, you implicitly agree to be governed and to pay for them.

That's the quick and dirty of it.

Too late. He caved, I'll cave. I'll be true to my word.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #264 of 560
8/20/11 at 9:59pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

He's being deliberately obtuse.

This is especially true based on his first response.

"What social contract?"

Yeah, combined with his admission of his more than passing familiarity with the concept, it does show a pretty high level of deliberately feigned stupidity.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #265 of 560
8/20/11 at 10:17pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks, BR. Now I understand where you're coming from.

The concept of a social contract, as so eloquently stated in the Declaration of Independence, doesn't sound so bad, does it?

We all have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and property. We also have the right to associate, to pool resources, to come together for protection, to form agencies (governments) to act in the common interest.

This is the rationale you are using to justify the existence of the modern state, am I correct?

Here's the thing. The United States did not come about by such a social contract. In truth, there is really no evidence that any state ever has.

All States have come about by force, conquest, coercion, and total disregard for those who didn't want to be a part of them.

Rhode Island was threatened with invasion and blockades because it didn't want to ratify the Constitution, for crying out loud.

And the modern state is certainly not rooted in any social contract of any kind. I must pay taxes because I was born here. If I don't, I am threatened with violence and caged.

Sure, if I don't like it I can move. But this doesn't change the fact that I was never given the opportunity to decide whether or not I wanted to participate in the "social contract" to begin with. That is the opposite of freedom, and certainly in complete opposition to the ideals espoused in the Declaration of Independence.

There is another way of "opting out". Or at least there was one up until the Civil War. We saw what happened when the southern states tried to "opt out" by seceding from the Union.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #266 of 560
8/20/11 at 10:57pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
But you can. Go off the grid. Plenty do. But that's beside the point. You use the fruits of the communal resources so you can expect to pay for them. It's like going to a restaurant, eating, and then refusing to pay the bill, becoming enraged that the restaurant is somehow "stealing" your money.

Go ahead. Use no communal resources. Live off the grid. But even then, you still benefit from society. You benefit from the EPA doing its best (when not hamstrung) to ensure the water you drink and the air you breathe are clean. You benefit from herd immunity to many communicable diseases thanks to required immunizations. The list goes on.

You implicitly agree to the social contract by living in this country and using its services. You have the opportunity to decide. You just don't like the alternatives.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #267 of 560
8/21/11 at 7:04am
Thread Starter 
I "benefit" from "society" because I am forced to, not because I voluntarily entered into an agreement or contract.

It's like a restaurant sending armed thugs to my house regularly, kidnapping me and taking me to the restaurant, forcing me to eat the food whether I like it or not, and then forcing me to pay for it.

I never got to choose for myself whether or not I wanted the "benefits" the restaurant was offering.

Surely nobody would stand for such a thing if a restaurant did it. But add the "legitimacy" of the State, and suddenly that makes it okay. The State does what it does for the "good of society", right?

Yes, if you don't like the way the State is running things you can try to elect a bureaucrat who promises "hope" and "change". Meanwhile, you are still subject to the State's sytemized plunder.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #268 of 560
8/21/11 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Yes, if you don't like the way the State is running things you can try to elect a bureaucrat who promises "hope" and "change". Meanwhile, you are still subject to the State's sytemized plunder.

Yep. That's the way it works. And that's the best we can possibly do. And it's a system that although flawed, has proved better than any alternative out there.
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post #269 of 560
8/21/11 at 7:56am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yep. That's the way it works. And that's the best we can possibly do. And it's a system that although flawed, has proved better than any alternative out there.

And he does have the choice to go off the grid or choose to go to another country that better reflects his ideals. He has alternatives--he just don't fucking like them.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #270 of 560
8/21/11 at 8:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I "benefit" from "society" because I am forced to, not because I voluntarily entered into an agreement or contract.

It's like a restaurant sending armed thugs to my house regularly, kidnapping me and taking me to the restaurant, forcing me to eat the food whether I like it or not, and then forcing me to pay for it.

I never got to choose for myself whether or not I wanted the "benefits" the restaurant was offering.

Surely nobody would stand for such a thing if a restaurant did it. But add the "legitimacy" of the State, and suddenly that makes it okay. The State does what it does for the "good of society", right?

Yes, if you don't like the way the State is running things you can try to elect a bureaucrat who promises "hope" and "change". Meanwhile, you are still subject to the State's sytemized plunder.

No. Nonsense.

It's far more like you're living in an apartment block and you have to pay for the upkeep of the roof, to prevent damp getting into the walls, and you're whining that you shouldn't have to pay the bill.

And you benefit from the lights in the communal hall, but you consider the electricity bill 'plunder'.

Get a grip. There's a reason why the highest-taxed nations are the best educated, healthiest and happiest.
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post #271 of 560
8/21/11 at 8:19am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No. Nonsense.

It's far more like you're living in an apartment block and you have to pay for the upkeep of the roof, to prevent damp getting into the walls, and you're whining that you shouldn't have to pay the bill.

And you benefit from the lights in the communal hall, but you consider the electricity bill 'plunder'.

Get a grip. There's a reason why the highest-taxed nations are the best educated, healthiest and happiest.

RAmen.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #272 of 560
8/21/11 at 8:27am
Thread Starter 
I would agree with you, Mumbo. If I was given the opportunity to choose whether or not I wanted to live in the apartment block in the first place.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #273 of 560
8/21/11 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I would agree with you, Mumbo. If I was given the opportunity to choose whether or not I wanted to live in the apartment block in the first place.

Hello.
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post #274 of 560
8/21/11 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I would agree with you, Mumbo. If I was given the opportunity to choose whether or not I wanted to live in the apartment block in the first place.

?

I can't think of any country in the world where things don't have to be payed for somehow.

But to murder the analogy, I suppose you could have been born homeless.

I suppose you could have been born in a squat, where no one can afford to pay the bills, or where no one can get it together to organise the repairs.

Or where everyone tries to dodge the shared bills, or no one takes responsibility for fixing the communal lights and the carpets on the stairs are really frayed and dangerous.

You were born in one of the most well-appointed apartment blocks in the history of the planet. You're whining that you shouldn't have to pay for the upkeep.
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post #275 of 560
8/21/11 at 8:54am
Thread Starter 
I'm challenging the notion that only the State can provide certain products or services that we all must use and be forced to pay for under threat of violence.

And I'm challenging the use of the term "social contract" as justification for legalized plunder.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #276 of 560
8/21/11 at 9:47am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
We can't have an intelligent discussion as long as you continue to use the loaded terminology. Stop the hyperbole.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #277 of 560
8/21/11 at 1:02pm
Thread Starter 
We can't have an intelligent discussion as long as you continue to employ ad hominems instead of focusing on the issues.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #278 of 560
8/21/11 at 4:23pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Do you assert my last post was an ad hom?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #279 of 560
8/21/11 at 5:43pm
Thread Starter 
It was more of a general statement.

But you were focusing on me instead of the issues (again).

You could have focused on the term(s) I used and explained why you considered it/them to be "hyperbole" and/or "loaded terminology".

Instead you focused on me (again) and offered nothing really constructive.

You tend to do that when you disagree with me and it tends to drive me away from the conversation.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #280 of 560
8/21/11 at 6:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It was more of a general statement.

But you were focusing on me instead of the issues (again).

You could have focused on the term(s) I used and explained why you considered it/them to be "hyperbole" and/or "loaded terminology".

Instead you focused on me (again) and offered nothing really constructive.

You tend to do that when you disagree with me and it tends to drive me away from the conversation.

Jazzy, it's been explained to you so many times how taxes are not 'theft' or 'plunder' and how the fact that you can be arrested for breaking the law (which you have part of a collective say in) is not 'threat of violence' but you have no interest in stooping the hyperbole. You can't honestly expect us to keep trying to explain the internal combustion engine to a horse and not call him out on his neighs and kicks.
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