Government is not the solution to our problem, it IS the problem - Page 10

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Originally Posted by jazzguru 

Government Explained:

 

I only watched the beginning, but I take it you are still rejecting all government.  Nice.  

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Originally Posted by jazzguru 


You should watch the whole thing.

I did.  It's pretty stupid, even if somewhat amusing at times.  It assumes that the people have no say in what government does, which is completely false...at least in this country.   

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

It's pretty stupid

Why?

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

It assumes that the people have no say in what government does, which is completely false...at least in this country.   

I'm confused. I thought you just said you did watch it. Which is it?

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Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

Why?

 

 

 

I'm confused. I thought you just said you did watch it. Which is it?

I did.  It portrays voting as meaningless, which is convenient for someone of your worldview.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

It portrays voting as meaningless, which is convenient for someone of your worldview.  

So you contend that voting does make a meaningful difference? I guess, if you do, it is convenient for someone of your worldview, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

So you contend that voting does make a meaningful difference? I guess, if you do, it is convenient for someone of your worldview, isn't it?

It's not a question of what your standard of "meaningful" is.  It's a question of whether or not it makes more a difference than doing nothing.  I'm not sure how refusing to vote or participate in government in any way helps you achieve your goal of no government.  As I said, that's never going to happen.  

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

It's not a question of what your standard of "meaningful" is.

Really?

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

It's a question of whether or not it makes more a difference than doing nothing.

OK. And you contend that it does?

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

I'm not sure how refusing to vote or participate in government in any way helps you achieve your goal of no government.

I'm not sure either. Of course I'm not sure how voting and participating helps achieve that goal either.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

As I said, that's never going to happen.  

Didn't anyone ever teach you that words like "never", "always", "all" and "none" are risky words?

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Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

Really?

 

 

 

OK. And you contend that it does?

 

 

 

I'm not sure either. Of course I'm not sure how voting and participating helps achieve that goal either.

 

 

 

Didn't anyone ever teach you that words like "never", "always", "all" and "none" are risky words?

Voting does make a difference.  I've personally been involved in local government, even serving in an elected position at one point.  I made quite a difference, as did the voters who put me there.  As for "never"...I'm about as sure about the world having government of some kind as I am of anything.  Government may change...it may take different forms...but it will always exist.  Arguing otherwise is silly.  

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

Voting does make a difference.

So we're back to the question of whether the difference it makes is meaningful and positive.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

I made quite a difference, as did the voters who put me there.

I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt on this claim, for the moment. I will note, however, that you are not exactly an unbiased source on whether you made a difference and whether the difference you made was meaningful and positive.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

As for "never"...I'm about as sure about the world having government of some kind as I am of anything.  Government may change...it may take different forms...but it will always exist.  Arguing otherwise is silly.  

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.   And for talking out of your ass.  

Pardon? How exactly am I "talking out of my ass?" Are simply trying to be rude because we disagree?

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Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

Pardon? How exactly am I "talking out of my ass?" Are simply trying to be rude because we disagree?

You're giving me the "benefit of the doubt."  Then, in the same breath, you're disqualifying my statement.  I'm telling you that as an elected person, I personally pushed for policies that passed a governing body which had a direct benefit to many people.  These benefits were tangible.  I don't want to get into  any more specifics here.  The point is that I made a difference through government.  And the voters put me there.  So again, voting does make a difference.  

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

You're giving me the "benefit of the doubt."  Then, in the same breath, you're disqualifying my statement.

I was simply noting that you are an unbiased source in regard to your claim. The two statements are not inconsistent or incompatible.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

I'm telling you that as an elected person, I personally pushed for policies that passed a governing body which had a direct benefit to many people.  These benefits were tangible.  I don't want to get into  any more specifics here.  The point is that I made a difference through government.  And the voters put me there.  So again, voting does make a difference.  

So you claim. Thanks. But absent any particulars and objective ways of measuring these differences and "benefits" we really have no way of knowing that what you claim is true in anyway beyond your opinion and the opinion of people who agree with you.

Much of the question of "making a difference" and having it be "meaningful" and even positive or beneficial is highly subjective. Additionally people have a tendency to focus only on the benefits or positive consequences of the actions or policies they support and dismiss or ignore the negative consequences. (Henry Hazlitt wrote a whole book centered around this issue. You might be interested in reading it.) That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

I was simply noting that you are an unbiased source in regard to your claim. The two statements are not inconsistent or incompatible.

 

 

 

 

So you claim. Thanks. But absent any particulars and objective ways of measuring these differences and "benefits" we really have no way of knowing that what you claim is true in anyway beyond your opinion and the opinion of people who agree with you.

 

Much of the question of "making a difference" and having it be "meaningful" and even positive or beneficial is highly subjective. Additionally people have a tendency to focus only on the benefits or positive consequences of the actions or policies they support and dismiss or ignore the negative consequences. (Henry Hazlitt wrote a whole book centered around this issue. You might be interested in reading it.) That's all I'm saying.

So I CLAIM?  You don't seem to understand...I'm not not speaking vaguely here.  I'm talking about direct, tangible and measurable benefits.  If you want specifics I'll PM them to you.  

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

So I CLAIM?

Yes.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

You don't seem to understand...I'm not not speaking vaguely here.

Yes you are.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

I'm talking about direct, tangible and measurable benefits.  If you want specifics I'll PM them to you.  

Yes, but you haven't told us what they are so we have no real way to judge the claims you're making.

I'm not trying to offend you. I'm speaking factually. You have made a claim about the things you did and their effects and the nature of these effects. But other than simply taking you at your word, we have no real way to know that these things were truly beneficial overall (vs. just beneficial to some select, specified group/individual at the greater expense of some other ill-defined group/individual.)

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Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Yes you are.

 

 

 

Yes, but you haven't told us what they are so we have no real way to judge the claims you're making.

 

I'm not trying to offend you. I'm speaking factually. You have made a claim about the things you did and their effects and the nature of these effects. But other than simply taking you at your word, we have no real way to know that these things were truly beneficial overall (vs. just beneficial to some select, specified group/individual at the greater expense of some other ill-defined group/individual.)

I'm not going to get into specifics publicly for anonymity's sake.  However, it seems that even if I did, you'd attempt to rationalize why those benefits were not actually benefits, or why those benefits helped some and hurt others...all in support of your worldview that all government is bad and that voting thereby doesn't matter.  I could say I'd proposed and enacted a budget that eliminated a $1,000,000 deficit without affecting services or raising taxes, and you'd still try to find a way to tell me that doesn't matter, was not good, etc.  To be clear, I'm not offended.  I just don't think you're being intellectually honest here.  

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

I'm not going to get into specifics publicly for anonymity's sake.

That's fine and I totally understand.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

However, it seems that even if I did, you'd attempt to rationalize why those benefits were not actually benefits, or why those benefits helped some and hurt others...

Well isn't reasonable to analyze actions to understand what the true and total costs and benefits are? I mean this is part of my point: You say that differences were made and they were beneficial. Perhaps they were. But we don't really know until we've had the chance to do a full analysis of them and consider all the costs to everyone. My point is that most of the time, most people don't ever do that. They focus on and play up the benefits while often ignoring, dismissing or downplaying the costs. I mean isn't this the crux of many of Obama's policy failings? There are surely benefits to someone, some group, in some time frame...but the net outcome may be negative for most people over time.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

...all in support of your worldview that all government is bad and that voting thereby doesn't matter.

Not entirely. It would in support of showing what I just said above.

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

I could say I'd proposed and enacted a budget that eliminated a $1,000,000 deficit without affecting services or raising taxes, and you'd still try to find a way to tell me that doesn't matter, was not good, etc.

Now that might be a good outcome. There's no way to tell until understanding the whole actual picture of course. It's easy to deal with hypotheticals. But if you did such a thing, that would be a good outcome (from my perspective).

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

I just don't think you're being intellectually honest here.  

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Wow: Governments mull radical solution to underwater mortgages: seize them:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru 

 

 

Police outnumber convention protesters by 4-1 in Tampa

 

Nearly 1000 police officers needed to handle 250 protesters? Really?

You buried the critical information there.

i would guess that coming down from an estimate of 5000 to 250 is the major contributing factor. Plus you don't want video of riots in the street when The One is in office.