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Government is not the solution to our problem, it IS the problem - Page 10

post #361 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I think that the message was, the government loan was not good for the company and likely contributed overall to their demise through multiple unintended consequences.

So the loan was a bad idea, right? Whose idea was it?
post #362 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So the loan was a bad idea, right? Whose idea was it?

Seems to me the business plan was bad, and this was compounded by a loan from an entity that took precedence over all other investors which essentially created a sink or swim situation for the company. This might not have occurred had they not taken the government loan. Does not matter whose idea it is, the situation would have played out the same either way. This may be a bit of a simplification of the situation, but I believe it answers your question.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #363 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

FloorJack, if the application and all of the research for the loan guarantee for Solyndra was administered by the Bush Administration, then how is this linked to Obama? You're making it sound like Obama was doing Solyndra a political favor, when in actuality, 99% of the deal was done under Bush.

Obama did the loan. READ SOMETHING! It was held off until the Obama white house pushed it through in a rush for their photo op.
post #364 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Obama did the loan. READ SOMETHING! It was held off until the Obama white house pushed it through in a rush for their photo op.

Please pay attention to the thread, and the Solyndra thread started by Marvfox. You're telling me to read something when apparently you can't even go through the goddamned thread. Almost as Ironic as if you were actually calling me partisan. Oh, wait.
post #365 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Please pay attention to the thread, and the Solyndra thread started by Marvfox. You're telling me to read something when apparently you can't even go through the goddamned thread. Almost as Ironic as if you were actually calling me partisan. Oh, wait.

Just stop posting. If you're not going to keep up with basic current events in politics stop posting in a politics forum.
post #366 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

If you're going to keep up with basic current events in politics stop posting in a politics forum.

I'll keep that suggestion in mind.

And trust me, I do keep up. If you had read the other thread and weren't being in blatant denial, you would have known that.
post #367 of 573
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #368 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Really? Not given a chance to fail? Plenty of people have not had health insurance for years and I don't see private charity stepping up and closing the gap.

Why would charities do that? Uncle Government has to take care of everyone.
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post #369 of 573
For the economy to get better, markets have to be allowed to reach supply and demand balance. But that will require letting certain prices (e.g. houses) fall. But politicians are reluctant to do that for political reasons. So in that sense they are part of the problem.
post #370 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton
FloorJack, if the application and all of the research for the loan guarantee for Solyndra was administered by the Bush Administration, then how is this linked to Obama? You're making it sound like Obama was doing Solyndra a political favor, when in actuality, 99% of the deal was done under Bush.


The application was made under Bush. It was not approved. The Obama admin expedited the approval for political purposes (selling the stimulus) despite knowing that the deal was garbage. All facts.
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post #371 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

The application was made under Bush. It was not approved. The Obama admin expedited the approval for political purposes (selling the stimulus) despite knowing that the deal was garbage. All facts.

Next they'll call you a racist.
post #372 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Next they'll call you a racist.

Not unless I supported Herman Cain.
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post #373 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Not unless I supported Herman Cain.

Obviously an Uncle Tom race traitor. Duh!?
post #374 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Obviously an Uncle Tom race traitor. Duh!?

Well, obviously. The irony here is amazingly entertaining. People like Garafalo state that the Tea Party is racist and that having a black candidate just masks that racism. They are using the black man to fool people (and themselves) into thinking they are not racist. How RACIST of them!

Meanwhile, Garafalo is assuming a common trait amongst a group of people who happen to be predominantly white. There's a word for that, and it's called racism.

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post #375 of 573
Thread Starter 

Government Explained:

 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #376 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Government Explained:

 

 

I only watched the beginning, but I take it you are still rejecting all government.  Nice.  

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post #377 of 573
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I only watched the beginning, but I take it you are still rejecting all government.  Nice.  

You should watch the whole thing.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #378 of 573
Thread Starter 

1000

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #379 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


You should watch the whole thing.

 

I did.  It's pretty stupid, even if somewhat amusing at times.  It assumes that the people have no say in what government does, which is completely false...at least in this country.   

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post #380 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It's pretty stupid

 

Why?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It assumes that the people have no say in what government does, which is completely false...at least in this country.   

 

I'm confused. I thought you just said you did watch it. Which is it?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #381 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Why?

 

 

 

I'm confused. I thought you just said you did watch it. Which is it?

 

I did.  It portrays voting as meaningless, which is convenient for someone of your worldview.  

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post #382 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It portrays voting as meaningless, which is convenient for someone of your worldview.  

 

So you contend that voting does make a meaningful difference? I guess, if you do, it is convenient for someone of your worldview, isn't it?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #383 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

So you contend that voting does make a meaningful difference? I guess, if you do, it is convenient for someone of your worldview, isn't it?

 

It's not a question of what your standard of "meaningful" is.  It's a question of whether or not it makes more a difference than doing nothing.  I'm not sure how refusing to vote or participate in government in any way helps you achieve your goal of no government.  As I said, that's never going to happen.  

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post #384 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It's not a question of what your standard of "meaningful" is.

 

Really?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It's a question of whether or not it makes more a difference than doing nothing.

 

OK. And you contend that it does?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm not sure how refusing to vote or participate in government in any way helps you achieve your goal of no government.

 

I'm not sure either. Of course I'm not sure how voting and participating helps achieve that goal either.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

As I said, that's never going to happen.  

 

Didn't anyone ever teach you that words like "never", "always", "all" and "none" are risky words?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #385 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Really?

 

 

 

OK. And you contend that it does?

 

 

 

I'm not sure either. Of course I'm not sure how voting and participating helps achieve that goal either.

 

 

 

Didn't anyone ever teach you that words like "never", "always", "all" and "none" are risky words?

 

Voting does make a difference.  I've personally been involved in local government, even serving in an elected position at one point.  I made quite a difference, as did the voters who put me there.  As for "never"...I'm about as sure about the world having government of some kind as I am of anything.  Government may change...it may take different forms...but it will always exist.  Arguing otherwise is silly.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #386 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Voting does make a difference.

 

So we're back to the question of whether the difference it makes is meaningful and positive.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I made quite a difference, as did the voters who put me there.

 

I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt on this claim, for the moment. I will note, however, that you are not exactly an unbiased source on whether you made a difference and whether the difference you made was meaningful and positive.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

As for "never"...I'm about as sure about the world having government of some kind as I am of anything.  Government may change...it may take different forms...but it will always exist.  Arguing otherwise is silly.  

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #387 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.   And for talking out of your ass.  

 

Pardon? How exactly am I "talking out of my ass?" Are simply trying to be rude because we disagree?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #388 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Pardon? How exactly am I "talking out of my ass?" Are simply trying to be rude because we disagree?

 

You're giving me the "benefit of the doubt."  Then, in the same breath, you're disqualifying my statement.  I'm telling you that as an elected person, I personally pushed for policies that passed a governing body which had a direct benefit to many people.  These benefits were tangible.  I don't want to get into  any more specifics here.  The point is that I made a difference through government.  And the voters put me there.  So again, voting does make a difference.  

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post #389 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You're giving me the "benefit of the doubt."  Then, in the same breath, you're disqualifying my statement.

 

I was simply noting that you are an unbiased source in regard to your claim. The two statements are not inconsistent or incompatible.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm telling you that as an elected person, I personally pushed for policies that passed a governing body which had a direct benefit to many people.  These benefits were tangible.  I don't want to get into  any more specifics here.  The point is that I made a difference through government.  And the voters put me there.  So again, voting does make a difference.  

 

So you claim. Thanks. But absent any particulars and objective ways of measuring these differences and "benefits" we really have no way of knowing that what you claim is true in anyway beyond your opinion and the opinion of people who agree with you.

 

Much of the question of "making a difference" and having it be "meaningful" and even positive or beneficial is highly subjective. Additionally people have a tendency to focus only on the benefits or positive consequences of the actions or policies they support and dismiss or ignore the negative consequences. (Henry Hazlitt wrote a whole book centered around this issue. You might be interested in reading it.) That's all I'm saying.


Edited by MJ1970 - 8/14/12 at 9:44am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #390 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I was simply noting that you are an unbiased source in regard to your claim. The two statements are not inconsistent or incompatible.

 

 

 

 

So you claim. Thanks. But absent any particulars and objective ways of measuring these differences and "benefits" we really have no way of knowing that what you claim is true in anyway beyond your opinion and the opinion of people who agree with you.

 

Much of the question of "making a difference" and having it be "meaningful" and even positive or beneficial is highly subjective. Additionally people have a tendency to focus only on the benefits or positive consequences of the actions or policies they support and dismiss or ignore the negative consequences. (Henry Hazlitt wrote a whole book centered around this issue. You might be interested in reading it.) That's all I'm saying.

 

So I CLAIM?  You don't seem to understand...I'm not not speaking vaguely here.  I'm talking about direct, tangible and measurable benefits.  If you want specifics I'll PM them to you.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #391 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

So I CLAIM?

 

Yes.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You don't seem to understand...I'm not not speaking vaguely here.

 

Yes you are.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm talking about direct, tangible and measurable benefits.  If you want specifics I'll PM them to you.  

 

Yes, but you haven't told us what they are so we have no real way to judge the claims you're making.

 

I'm not trying to offend you. I'm speaking factually. You have made a claim about the things you did and their effects and the nature of these effects. But other than simply taking you at your word, we have no real way to know that these things were truly beneficial overall (vs. just beneficial to some select, specified group/individual at the greater expense of some other ill-defined group/individual.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #392 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Yes you are.

 

 

 

Yes, but you haven't told us what they are so we have no real way to judge the claims you're making.

 

I'm not trying to offend you. I'm speaking factually. You have made a claim about the things you did and their effects and the nature of these effects. But other than simply taking you at your word, we have no real way to know that these things were truly beneficial overall (vs. just beneficial to some select, specified group/individual at the greater expense of some other ill-defined group/individual.)

 

I'm not going to get into specifics publicly for anonymity's sake.  However, it seems that even if I did, you'd attempt to rationalize why those benefits were not actually benefits, or why those benefits helped some and hurt others...all in support of your worldview that all government is bad and that voting thereby doesn't matter.  I could say I'd proposed and enacted a budget that eliminated a $1,000,000 deficit without affecting services or raising taxes, and you'd still try to find a way to tell me that doesn't matter, was not good, etc.  To be clear, I'm not offended.  I just don't think you're being intellectually honest here.  

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post #393 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm not going to get into specifics publicly for anonymity's sake.

 

That's fine and I totally understand.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

However, it seems that even if I did, you'd attempt to rationalize why those benefits were not actually benefits, or why those benefits helped some and hurt others...

 

Well isn't reasonable to analyze actions to understand what the true and total costs and benefits are? I mean this is part of my point: You say that differences were made and they were beneficial. Perhaps they were. But we don't really know until we've had the chance to do a full analysis of them and consider all the costs to everyone. My point is that most of the time, most people don't ever do that. They focus on and play up the benefits while often ignoring, dismissing or downplaying the costs. I mean isn't this the crux of many of Obama's policy failings? There are surely benefits to someone, some group, in some time frame...but the net outcome may be negative for most people over time.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

...all in support of your worldview that all government is bad and that voting thereby doesn't matter.

 

Not entirely. It would in support of showing what I just said above.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I could say I'd proposed and enacted a budget that eliminated a $1,000,000 deficit without affecting services or raising taxes, and you'd still try to find a way to tell me that doesn't matter, was not good, etc.

 

Now that might be a good outcome. There's no way to tell until understanding the whole actual picture of course. It's easy to deal with hypotheticals. But if you did such a thing, that would be a good outcome (from my perspective).

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I just don't think you're being intellectually honest here.  

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion.


Edited by MJ1970 - 8/15/12 at 6:58am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #394 of 573

Wow: Governments mull radical solution to underwater mortgages: seize them:

 

Quote:
With millions of homeowners still "under water," some local governments are considering a novel solution: condemning their mortgages through the power of eminent domain.
 
“Federal programs have not been very successful at all, and the private programs have been of limited help,” said Gregory Devereaux, administrator for San Bernardino County, explaining the government's decision to consider eminent domain, a plan the mortgage industry considers the equivalent of the nuclear option. The hard-hit county's board of supervisors is expected to meet Thursday to consider proposals to help homeowners, including the possible use of eminent domain.
 
There are several ways a local government could use eminent domain to write down mortgages, but the basic idea is fairly simple. Much like the condemnation of a piece of land for public use, the town or county would seek court approval to pay a “fair market” value to a lender or investor holding a homeowner’s underwater mortgage. That amount would be substantially less than the unpaid balance. Once the seizure is approved, the local government would then offer to sell the smaller mortgage back to the homeowner, who would refinance the outstanding balance with a new loan.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #395 of 573
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #396 of 573
Thread Starter 

 

 

Police outnumber convention protesters by 4-1 in Tampa

 

Nearly 1000 police officers needed to handle 250 protesters? Really?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #397 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

 

Police outnumber convention protesters by 4-1 in Tampa

 

Nearly 1000 police officers needed to handle 250 protesters? Really?

 

 

You buried the critical information there.

 

 

 

Quote:
Roughly 250 protesters took part in Monday’s “March on the RNC,” a figure dramatically lower than the 5,000 people organizers said would take part in the rally.
post #398 of 573
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

 

 

You buried the critical information there.

 

 

 

 

But that wasn't the only factor:

 

 

Quote:
After the FBI and Department of Homeland Security issued a joint bulletin warning Tampa’s convention could be targeted by anarchists, police in tan uniforms were positioned all along the protest route.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #399 of 573

i would guess that coming down from an estimate of 5000 to 250 is the major contributing factor. Plus you don't want video of riots in the street when The One is in office.

post #400 of 573
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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