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Government is not the solution to our problem, it IS the problem - Page 11

post #401 of 573

Is it reasonable to blame government?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #402 of 573
Thread Starter 

We’re told that we use government systems — I drive on the roads, I use the post office — and so that means therefore I’ve consented to be expropriated and have the funds used for drone strikes. But here, again, this is a problem. The mere fact that I inescapably use services I have no choice but to use does not indicate consent any more than the fact that may eat a meal in prison indicates my consent to imprisonment … This is a ridiculous argument that’s advanced by people that simply want to wield power.

Tom Woods

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #403 of 573

You are free to move to Somalia or live off the grid.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #404 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You are free to move to Somalia or live off the grid.

 

It was really only a matter of time wasn't it. lol.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #405 of 573

One is not free to leave a prison.  One is free to move elsewhere or live off the grid.  Flawed analogy is flawed.  One just happens to enjoy the benefits of society and bitch about having to pay for them.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #406 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

One is not free to leave a prison.  One is free to move elsewhere or live off the grid.  Flawed analogy is flawed.  One just happens to enjoy the benefits of society and bitch about having to pay for them.

 

As usual you're mostly wrong.

 

 

First, it is true that the analogy is not perfect, with regard to the US it's not entirely off. For example, the US is unique among nations that keep its slav...errr...citizens in its tax net worldwide. Now this can be escaped by renouncing US citizenship, but this is also a difficult and lengthy and expensive process not open to most except the relatively wealthy. It's also true that there are certain tax treaties that allow certain amount of income exemptions, but do not exempt one from having to file tax returns and report to the US government. Furthermore, people with a net worth above a certain level can be taxed on exit or renunciation as well. Additionally, remaining a US citizen is closing many options to you around the world because, financially...due to the US government's rather heavy handed approach, US citizens are becoming toxic to foreign banks and financial institutions.

 
So citizens of the US are not quite as free to leave as you suggest.
 

Second, those opposed to the current way of doing things are simply enjoying the benefits and bitching about paying for them but many are trying to make changes to a new way of doing things. And there's nothing wrong with this, assuming you think you can actually change the system. I don't think you can and am working toward getting out of the US. I think it has become corrupt to the core and the people of the US are in the process of naively and ignorantly selling their souls to Fascism, Marxism and Socialism. There are other countries that, while imperfect, are at least going a better direction and reaping the fruits of greater liberty, smaller government, less taxation, etc. Those places also do not suffer under the weight of a global empire as the US does. The US, plain and simple, is becoming less free each year in many different ways...and it is suffering the economic and social consequences of this trend.

 

Finally, you present the typically simplistic thinking of people of your ilk: Take it or leave it. You have no imagination for the possibilities of more freedom or that people would trying to pursue more freedom within their current context. You repeatedly offer up Somalia as the best example of a "free" country apparently totally ignorant of the fact that it is not the best example (any more...though there was a period between totalitarian socialist government and violent warlords trying to become the next government....when Somalia actually began to stabilize, improve and even prosper relative to its previous state.)

 

I hope to get out (while I can) and eventually obtain citizenship elsewhere. I love what America is and was in terms of the idea of America and will always love that. I hate what the US and US government(s) has(have) become.

 

You want to stay here and try and build your socialist Utopia? Fine. You can follow places like California, Europe, the former Soviet Union and every other grand socialist Utopia into financial and moral bankruptcy and decline. I only hope I'll have escaped by then.

 

The problem with you people is that you don't want anyone to be free. You want everyone penned into your Utopia. As someone once said you could have an island of socialism in a sea of liberty but the reverse is not true. You want the sea of socialism and don't want any islands of liberty. The other problem is that you think you can play with the fire of authoritarianism and think you can control it. Well, eventually you'll get burned...unfortunately you'll also burn a lot of other people along the way.


Edited by MJ1970 - 9/7/12 at 4:15pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #407 of 573
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You are free to move to Somalia or live off the grid.

 

You are free to address the content of the quote rather than play the tired old "if you don't like it, then leave" card.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #408 of 573
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

One is not free to leave a prison.  One is free to move elsewhere or live off the grid.  Flawed analogy is flawed.  One just happens to enjoy the benefits of society and bitch about having to pay for them.

 

A little better, but still pathetic.

 

The point of the quote is that using services you are forced - under threat of violence - to pay for does not indicate your consent.

 

I have every right to complain that my money - taken from me under threat of violence - is being used to slaughter innocent children in drone attacks.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #409 of 573

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #410 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

A little better, but still pathetic.

 

The point of the quote is that using services you are forced - under threat of violence - to pay for does not indicate your consent.

 

I have every right to complain that my money - taken from me under threat of violence - is being used to slaughter innocent children in drone attacks.

 

Your repeated use of the "at gunpoint" or "under threat of violence" meme indicates any amount of government funded through any amount of taxes is unacceptable to you.  Go live off the grid.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #411 of 573
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Your repeated use of the "at gunpoint" or "under threat of violence" meme indicates any amount of government funded through any amount of taxes is unacceptable to you.  Go live off the grid.

 

No. The "at gunpoint" and "under threat of violence" is unacceptable to me.

 

I believe in the non-aggression principle. I believe all contracts should be voluntary. That includes between the people and the government.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #412 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I believe in the non-aggression principle. I believe all contracts should be voluntary.

 

So does BR. It's just that he thinks some people volunteer by force better. That's all.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #413 of 573

We are, by nature, dependent creatures.  Nobody spontaneously appeared out of thin air, nobody was born with the ability to take care of themselves.    The reality of our nature suggests some kind of original inter-dependence.  If we were completely independent, we would all live in forests picking berries from birth, because our mothers, out of desire to be independent, would abandon us immediately after birth; our fathers wouldn't be anywhere in sight.  But we don't, because we naturally interact with others, and that is why we have the society and technological advancements we have today.  Yep.  WE built it, together.  We are members of a society and there are certain requirements for membership.  

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #414 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

We are, by nature, dependent creatures.  Nobody spontaneously appeared out of thin air, nobody was born with the ability to take care of themselves.    The reality of our nature suggests some kind of original inter-dependence.  If we were completely independent, we would all live in forests picking berries from birth, because our mothers, out of desire to be independent, would abandon us immediately after birth; our fathers wouldn't be anywhere in sight.  But we don't, because we naturally interact with others, and that is why we have the society and technological advancements we have today.  Yep.  WE built it, together.  We are members of a society and there are certain requirements for membership.  

 

And your implication is that this inter-dependence, that society cannot exist, survive or flourish without the use of force (i.e., the state).

 

I call bullshit.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #415 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

No. The "at gunpoint" and "under threat of violence" is unacceptable to me.

 

I believe in the non-aggression principle. I believe all contracts should be voluntary. That includes between the people and the government.

So if you want to not pay taxes at all, despite having the means, there's nothing there to enforce you paying your fair share while receiving the benefits.  Yeah, you live in a fucking fantasy world.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #416 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So if you want to not pay taxes at all, despite having the means, there's nothing there to enforce you paying your fair share while receiving the benefits.  Yeah, you live in a fucking fantasy world.

 

It's you that's lives in a fantasy world. But we'll set that aside for a moment to address the point that you seem to be missing (or just ignoring): Some of us are arguing for, and trying to convince and seeking a peaceful change to a much more voluntary approach to interaction in society. That's all. It's something we believe is possible despite people, like you, who either can't imagine things happening in a voluntary manner or simply favor coercion to achieve your goals.


Edited by MJ1970 - 9/9/12 at 8:34am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #417 of 573

Ahhh, those "free" Americans. Just leave the country if you don't like it. Uh huh.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #418 of 573
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So if you want to not pay taxes at all, despite having the means, there's nothing there to enforce you paying your fair share while receiving the benefits.  Yeah, you live in a fucking fantasy world.

 

Forcing people to pay "their fair share" for benefits they never wanted or never use is wrong. Although nobody has been able to explain to me how killing innocent children in drone attacks is a "benefit".

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #419 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ahhh, those "free" Americans. Just leave the country if you don't like it. Uh huh.

 

 

 

Quote:
Schumer’s brainchild would slap a 30 percent tax on the capital gains of anyone renouncing U.S. citizenship and bar him from ever setting foot in the country again.

 

So the same folks who fought to protect burning the U.S. flag in protest will now ban people from the country if they burn their passport?

Liberalism really is a mental disease, isn't it?

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #420 of 573

Maybe all it will take is this revelation for the left to finally wake up and get on the "End the Fed" bandwagon.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #421 of 573
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Maybe all it will take is this revelation for the left to finally wake up and get on the "End the Fed" bandwagon.

 

It's a CNN link...some of them might actually read and believe it.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #422 of 573

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #423 of 573
Thread Starter 

The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan (It Was Not To End the War Or Save Lives)

 

Japanese and American leaders admitted Japan would have surrendered, regardless. So why did the U.S. government do it? Click the link above and learn.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #424 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan (It Was Not To End the War Or Save Lives)

 

Japanese and American leaders admitted Japan would have surrendered, regardless. So why did the U.S. government do it? Click the link above and learn.

 

You make it sound as if this is some shocking revelation.  This was a dark time in American history.  As the article pointed out, it may very well have achieved the goal of cowing the Russians, but at what price.  America has it's share of things to not be proud of sprinkled throughout our history, but point me to a country that doesn't have issues in it's past that it regrets.  Greater atrocities have been committed, but this one is pretty high on the list.

post #425 of 573
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by svnipp View Post

 

You make it sound as if this is some shocking revelation.  This was a dark time in American history.  As the article pointed out, it may very well have achieved the goal of cowing the Russians, but at what price.  America has it's share of things to not be proud of sprinkled throughout our history, but point me to a country that doesn't have issues in it's past that it regrets.  Greater atrocities have been committed, but this one is pretty high on the list.

 

It is a shocking revelation to some who believe the war couldn't have been ended any other way.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #426 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan (It Was Not To End the War Or Save Lives)

 

Japanese and American leaders admitted Japan would have surrendered, regardless. So why did the U.S. government do it? Click the link above and learn.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svnipp View Post

 

You make it sound as if this is some shocking revelation.  This was a dark time in American history.  As the article pointed out, it may very well have achieved the goal of cowing the Russians, but at what price.  America has it's share of things to not be proud of sprinkled throughout our history, but point me to a country that doesn't have issues in it's past that it regrets.  Greater atrocities have been committed, but this one is pretty high on the list.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

It is a shocking revelation to some who believe the war couldn't have been ended any other way.

 

 

Of course it could have ended another way.  Japan would have eventually surrendered, but we'd have needed to lost another 250,000 men (or more) if we invaded.    

 

 

Quote:
Casualty predictions varied widely but were extremely high for both sides: depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians resisted the invasion, estimates ran into the millions for Allied casualties[1] and several times that number for total Japanese casualties.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #427 of 573

The "War on Drugs"...just like prohibition except...well...just like prohibition.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #428 of 573

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #429 of 573
You secessionists should listen to Mitt ~ Free Market Works Best With The Right Regulation. Not too little, not too much.
post #430 of 573
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

You secessionists should listen to Mitt ~ Free Market Works Best With The Right Regulation. Not too little, not too much.

 

You should study Austrian economics. A truly free market is self-regulating.

 

Here is a great place to start.


Edited by jazzguru - 10/19/12 at 9:54am

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #431 of 573

Government is the the solution to our problem...it is the problem.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #432 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Government is the the solution to our problem...it is the problem.

My wife's friend bought a Leaf. She had to sign a bunch of acknowledgments wrt the all electric nature of the car and what the situation would be if she ran out of power. I'm sure there are some car buyers that roll into the dealer and say, "I want that cute little one" not realizing what they are pointing at.

post #433 of 573

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #434 of 573

That website's name is ironic.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #435 of 573

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #436 of 573
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #437 of 573
Thread Starter 

U.S. Postal Service on a ‘Tightrope’ Lost $15.9 Billion

 

Quote:
The U.S. Postal Service said its net loss last year widened to $15.9 billion, more than the $15 billion it had projected, as mail volume continued to drop, falling 5 percent.
 
Without action by Congress, the service will run out of cash on Oct. 15, 2013, after it makes a required workers compensation payment to the U.S. Labor Department and before revenue typically jumps with holiday-season mailing, Chief Financial Officer Joe Corbett said today.
 
The service, whose fiscal year ends Sept. 30, lost $5.1 billion a year earlier. It announced the 2012 net loss at a meeting at its Washington headquarters.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #438 of 573
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #439 of 573
Thread Starter 

FHA projected to exhaust reserves, could need bailout

 

Quote:
The Federal Housing Administration, which has played a crucial role in stabilizing the housing market, said it ended September with $16.3 billion in projected losses -- a possible prelude to a taxpayer bailout.
 
The precarious financial situation could force the FHA, which has been self-funded through mortgage insurance premiums since it was created during the Great Depression, to tap the U.S. Treasury to stay afloat.
 
The agency said a determination on whether it needs a bailout won't come until next year.
 
The FHA is required to maintain enough cash reserves to cover losses on the mortgages it insures. But in its annual actuarial report to Congress, the agency said a slower-than-anticipated housing market recovery has led its reserves to fall $16.3 billion below anticipated losses.
 
The FHA's cash reserves aren't supposed to drop below 2% of projected losses. They ended the 2012 fiscal year at -1.44%, down from the seriously low level of 0.24% at the end of 2011.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #440 of 573
Quote:

LOL. Instead of just "green jobs" maybe everyone in the US should start learning Mandarin. Seriously though*, I do like the USA and it's just sad. 200 years and that's about it (at least in terms of being "number 1").

*Actually the Mandarin thing is a good point.
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