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RIM unveils 7-inch 'PlayBook' tablet set to launch in early 2011 - Page 6

post #201 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Selling the sizzle instead of the steak. Apple's ads don't dwell on specifications, or even the functions of their products. If the ads work at all, it's because they make you excited about the concept they are selling. I've got nothing against it; this is just how advertising works. This is what RIM is doing with this ad. Very light on the specifics and long on eye-catching generalities. A lot like an Apple ad, is what I thought when I saw it. That BTW is not a criticism. Apple is the master of this approach.

The difference is Apple, post Jobs return, always uses the device itself in the ad used to sell the concept. They use the widget to tell a 30 sec story of the things it does and how you can feel cool using it.

RIM used Minority Report graphics completely disassociated from their product. The way cool images that have absolutely no chance of meeting expectations in the reality. The best potential differentiator in the ad, the augmented reality shot in the art gallery, could have been spectacular if it had been done with an actual device. But when you see it the second time you can tell the scene was composited. Badly. With the actual background bleeding through the too transparently composited element inside the picture frame.

The random switching between a 4:3 and 3:2 ratio in the Minority Report graphics are sure to be a bone of contention when the delivered screen doesn't look like most of the commercial. There is a section in the middle that looks most reasonable for a 3:2 display, but unless RIM is getting a custom panel, 1024x600 is shipping everywhere else as essentially 16:9. That means the geometries for content they are visually promising won't be there in reality.

They are also setting themselves up for potential buyer dissatisfaction because a 7" display is relatively small, but they always show it as really big. Yes, it's just advertising, not a literal promise, but RIM didn't put any context in there to mentally prepare buyers for e smallish screen. iPhones have tiny screens in comparison, but Apple always used real hands in the ads, so that phone in the ad on a 52" screen didn't cause any mental conflicts when you got to the store. The hand is an invariant that grounded the screen size despite being radically enlarged in the ads.

It's little stuff like this this that is incredibly important in shaping attitudes when people finally get to see the real thing. RIM is literally overselling the device, unintentionally, and setting themselves up for blogdom panning and overall disappointment when it actually ships.
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post #202 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

What do you mean by level?

What about the iPod campaign, which Apple ran for years with images such as these:



... with the product barely even visible?

You are missing that one by a mile. It is those ads that made the iPod white earbuds and cord iconic. The ads played off the high contrast making the most important element, the iPod stand out the most. It never needed to be big, actually being small but still the most visible element reinforces the ease of using it. The rest of the ad told the story of how deeply affected the person in the ad was by what was coming out of that iPod.

The iPod was always about the content, not the specs, not the device. That's why the product and marketing were so brilliant and no other player ever got close to making a reasonable competitor. They all thought it was the device, not the story about the content and what you can do with your content and those white earbuds.
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post #203 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

This is also one of the reasons Apple broke their usual rules and pre-announced the iPad, so obviously two can play. I'm not counting days, as that's just a game. I'm also not guessing what RIM's pre-annoucment means in terms of a real shipping date, as that's just a fool's errand. I simply do not understand the position that the video is a "fake" and that the product is like Microsoft's nonexistent Courier. I've challenged people who say this to show me how RIM could be so stupid as to release a video a product that will either never arrive or not look at all like the promotional ad, but I notice nobody has taken me up on it.

What other competitors were Apple trying to dissuade? Literally there were and still are none. Apple utterly defined the product space so resoundingly the only reasonable technical competitor at the time, HP, said we are going back to the drawing board, the tablet project is cancelled.

Apple made the announcement specifically to let the developers into the fold without having the 100% realized risk that an iPad developer would get the message out about the hardware before Apple did.

And I have taken you up on your last little challenge without even knowing you had issued it yet. A couple posts up from here I have that response for you, even though I just got to your quoted post as I wade through the thread.
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post #204 of 412
Another failed attempt to copy Apple-All wannabe's please stop now!
post #205 of 412
This confirms it: the also-rans are officially out of ideas.
post #206 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

What do you mean by level?

What about the iPod campaign, which Apple ran for years with images such as these:



... with the product barely even visible?

Adding to what Hiro stated, those ads came out well after the iPod was becoming iconic. Those weren’t teaser ads that had you guessing how an iPod actually works. You could go into a store, ask a friend or google it to find gobs and gobs of photos, video, reviews and tests of the product in action.

If you want me to compare it to the PlayBook, at least these iconic iPod ads actually showed the device being in used in a very mobile way. I have expected to see the PlayBook UI being shown on a melting clock.


As for your previous comment about specs. You should know that you can’t look at the base HW specs and tell which device is effectively faster if they are using disparate OSes. RiM saying the PlayBook has dual-core processor doesn’t mean that it will run the same basic app operations or feel faster from the user’s PoV simply because of the faster CPU and more RAM. There are plenty of reviews of the Nexus One with 1GHz CPU v. iPhone 3GS with 600MHz CPU showing the iPhone doing the same essential tasks faster. Where’s the battery time spec? Apple lists the important features for the typical consumer. I don’t think I’ve seen any other smartphone vendor list so many details about different types of battery usage.

BTW, here are the specs that were up immediately after the keynote demo, along with other pages prominently displaying price points, videos, images, and whole lot of info about why one would want to use it and how they could incorporate into their life. They don’t list RAM, but the average person still doesn’t know what RAM is. Even on these technical forums people confused NAND with RAM often.

http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/

* Note: Android did a very impressive job with the v2.2 update.
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post #207 of 412
i really hate products always saying " full multi-touch " what does that mean !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! ipad supports 11 muti-touches, i am sure, no need to ask, this blackpad only supports only 2 touches(baby )... !!!!!!
post #208 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymondinperth View Post

i really hate products always saying " full multi-touch " what does that mean !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! ipad supports 11 muti-touches, i am sure, no need to ask, this blackpad only supports only 2 touches(baby )... !!!!!!

After their Storm smartphones they damn well better be putting “full multi-touch” on all their devices.

Seriously though, Apple does list Multi-Touch as their trademark they own. it’s pretty generic, IMO, but this could be a simple way for RiM to make sure there is no legal issue.

http://www.apple.com/legal/trademark/appletmlist.html
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post #209 of 412
I had one Blackberry-that was enough
For a lifetime.
After you use Apple, everything else sucks.
post #210 of 412
So the Playbook is supposed to be able to display full 1080p?

Playbook resolution: 1024 x 600

1080p resolution: 1920 x 1080

Am I missing something?
post #211 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by manodrum View Post

So the Playbook is supposed to be able to display full 1080p?

...

Am I missing something?

yes, the PlayBook supports output via HDMI
post #212 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by manodrum View Post

So the Playbook is supposed to be able to display full 1080p?

Playbook resolution: 1024 x 600

1080p resolution: 1920 x 1080

Am I missing something?

1) Yes you are missing something. The built-in display is 1024x600, but it can playback 1080p content and output 1080p content via HDMI which can be displayed on 1080p displays. They all scale to meet their needs.

2) Note that the 1080p resolution you listed is 1.78:1 aspect ratio and the PlayBook is 1.71:1 aspect ratio so the resolution you want could never happen anyway. Also, the PlayBook is 170 ppi, which is more than iPad at 132 ppi. The iPads ppi is good and the PlayBook is better.

3) The iPhone 4s HW can actually playback 1080p but this would cause some issues with battery duration and performance so Apple limited the maximum you can playback content recorded at 720p and even take video in 720p, though the display is 960x640.
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post #213 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Oh come on. Enough with the double standards. Apple does this kind of thing all the time.

Oh really? Example please!
post #214 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

Looks solid to me. The lack of 3G isn't a big deal - I've only used it once on my iPad.

I'm more curious about the OS, hard drive capacity, the availability of apps, and performance, of course.

Looks impressive. But for many of us, 3G on the iPad is crucial. It means, wherever you are, mobile phone or not, open your iPad, Boom! Da Internetz ready to go. They didn't mention capacity. I can haz local storage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder View Post

Reading the specs and the provided info, it appears that content is not stored on the PlayBook itself, but is passed to it from a BlackBerry phone, or am I missing something?

1GB RAM is that for real? So you need this and a BlackBerry to carry your media around with you?

Why is it that these companies always make a huge mistake in their designs?

And look at the size of the bezel!

It is somewhat chunky for 7", I honestly am hoping this really succeeds, iPad is nowhere to be seen officially outside the few launch countries...!!

Yup, what is the local storage? 32GB? 64? 0? Why is this not mentioned? Did I miss it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

LOL

yeah it's kind of hard to get it wrong when they're just filming an emulator running on much higher spec'd machines. Hell, I don't even know if we're seeing the actual OS, or a computer-generated example of what it will be, you know what I mean? HTC did this plenty of times with their videos on youtube. I mean shit, if you look at the touch pro video, you'd think that thing was as snappy as it could get. WRONG!

It looks impressive, this UI. Though the features, you gotta admit, mostly look iPad-like. I'm liking the sexiness of the UI. How does this translate to real-life use? I hope it does well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

What's "fake" about the video? In fact it looks a lot like something Apple might do. A public demo also doesn't tell you much except that they've got working prototypes. I don't have any idea whether this product will be any good, or whether it will ship in three or six months, or never. But I think it's silly to criticize RIM for pre-announcing the product with a gee-wiz video, when that's exactly the kind of thing Apple does, and does so well.

Apple has a good track record of showing you exactly how the device does. The videos are usually done after the demo of the real device, and the Apple videos are fairly close to actual usage.

BTW. HOW IS THIS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR SERIOUS BUSINESS IF IT IS CALLED "PLAYBOOK". Seems weird to me. Unless it's the football reference, but PlayBook sounds like Playschool, Playdough, etc. I guess iPad sounded tampon-ish at the start... they seem to have successfully shaken of that association, I suppose.
post #215 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

The difference is Apple, post Jobs return, always uses the device itself in the ad used to sell the concept. They use the widget to tell a 30 sec story of the things it does and how you can feel cool using it.

RIM used Minority Report graphics completely disassociated from their product. The way cool images that have absolutely no chance of meeting expectations in the reality. The best potential differentiator in the ad, the augmented reality shot in the art gallery, could have been spectacular if it had been done with an actual device. But when you see it the second time you can tell the scene was composited. Badly. With the actual background bleeding through the too transparently composited element inside the picture frame.

The random switching between a 4:3 and 3:2 ratio in the Minority Report graphics are sure to be a bone of contention when the delivered screen doesn't look like most of the commercial. There is a section in the middle that looks most reasonable for a 3:2 display, but unless RIM is getting a custom panel, 1024x600 is shipping everywhere else as essentially 16:9. That means the geometries for content they are visually promising won't be there in reality.

They are also setting themselves up for potential buyer dissatisfaction because a 7" display is relatively small, but they always show it as really big. Yes, it's just advertising, not a literal promise, but RIM didn't put any context in there to mentally prepare buyers for e smallish screen. iPhones have tiny screens in comparison, but Apple always used real hands in the ads, so that phone in the ad on a 52" screen didn't cause any mental conflicts when you got to the store. The hand is an invariant that grounded the screen size despite being radically enlarged in the ads.

It's little stuff like this this that is incredibly important in shaping attitudes when people finally get to see the real thing. RIM is literally overselling the device, unintentionally, and setting themselves up for blogdom panning and overall disappointment when it actually ships.

Based on your comments, I went back and reviewed the video -- with lots of pauses and replays.

The screen aspect ratio (simulated) is all over the place -- using things like manilla folders for masks. The impression is that there is a lot more information on the screen than is practical.

"Oh, you look much taller on TV!"

They showed no apps running or being interfaced -- only simulations some of which looked as if they were run on the iPad simulator. The "multitasking" demo showed a WebOs CoverFlow of cards and a single row of app icons. You see more than that on the iPhone screen at 1/4 the area.

Conclusions:

-- they haven't defined the UI
-- there is no OS
-- there is no SDK or Simulator

Apple pulled OS X experts to work on finalizing the first iOs from a running system (demoed).
It took trained experts 3 months to finalize iOS 1.

There is no way in hell that this will be ready for release before 3Q 2011!

.
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post #216 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Yes you are missing something. The built-in display is 1024x600, but it can playback 1080p content and output 1080p content via HDMI which can be displayed on 1080p displays. They all scale to meet their needs.

2) Note that the 1080p resolution you listed is 1.78:1 aspect ratio and the PlayBook is 1.71:1 aspect ratio so the resolution you want could never happen anyway. Also, the PlayBook is 170 ppi, which is more than iPad at 132 ppi. The iPads ppi is good and the PlayBook is better.

3) The iPhone 4s HW can actually playback 1080p but this would cause some issues with battery duration and performance so Apple limited the maximum you can playback content recorded at 720p and even take video in 720p, though the display is 960x640.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72 View Post

yes, the PlayBook supports output via HDMI

HDMI output is good. Will it support HDCP? Where do I get the 1080p content, though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

The difference is Apple, post Jobs return, always uses the device itself in the ad used to sell the concept. They use the widget to tell a 30 sec story of the things it does and how you can feel cool using it.

RIM used Minority Report graphics completely disassociated from their product. The way cool images that have absolutely no chance of meeting expectations in the reality

....Yes, it's just advertising, not a literal promise, but RIM didn't put any context in there to mentally prepare buyers for e smallish screen. iPhones have tiny screens in comparison, but Apple always used real hands in the ads, so that phone in the ad on a 52" screen didn't cause any mental conflicts when you got to the store. The hand is an invariant that grounded the screen size despite being radically enlarged in the ads.

It's little stuff like this this that is incredibly important in shaping attitudes when people finally get to see the real thing. RIM is literally overselling the device, unintentionally, and setting themselves up for blogdom panning and overall disappointment when it actually ships.

Well, I can't blame RIM, they had to make a big splash. The ad is well done for the layman to enjoy. I'm sure you're right on the compositing issues, most people will just look at the ad, and be like, cool, wonder when it will come out, I want to check it out...

I am hoping it doesn't disappoint. It's almost winter and no real iPad competitors, no iPad official launches outside the already-launched countries. I know it sounds like my mantra, but, please, somebody come out with more tablets so everyone doesn't have to just depend on Apple, they can only make so many iPads at one time.
post #217 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Few not Every.

More iphone carriers offering the iphone for free than Blackberry carriers offering BOGO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Ahh.... Yes CNBC! The article did shed some light on why Dual Cores... My guess it's one core for each of the co-CEOs.

Good thing they aren't planning a quad-core..... Or.....

What's that all about?

.

QNX can do 16 cores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Looks like they are going to need to work on that ecosystem. PlayBook runs QNX with webkit and BB runs ...whatever and BB browser. A completely new platform seams like it would cause problems with compatibility unless they transition their phone OS too. Wow are they screwed.

Apps for the old BB OS'es are all java apps --- that's how the Playbook can get compatibility (via java).

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

There is a certain irony that phone makers were quick to point out Apple was entering their realm and that Apple knew nothing about phones. I am not saying RIM knows nothing about computers but then again they don't have Apple's experience and know how either. The mobile devices running iOS are far more than phones and I wonder if RIM maybe in for a rough ride taking on iOS and Android based on their success with BBs.

That's why they bought QNX --- which has been in the PC business since the early 80's. As a Canadian, I was using this in high school --- it's a 80186 CPU.

http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/...asp?st=1&c=971

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Right, you're a Qualcomm shill.

Not that either. After 10 years of bashing Qualcomm --- what have you people learned? GSM side has its own patent troll (Nokia paid InterDigital more than 250 million dollars to settle GSM patent lawsuit in 2006). Qualcomm became the largest mobile technology company in the world. ATT ended up using Qualcomm BREW. LBS became the only 3G killer app --- which Qualcomm was years ahead of the GSM world. And the GSM iphone became the most locked-up phone in the world.

No need to shill at all.
post #218 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Why didn't they actually go on stage and demo it to an assembled group from the tech press? Just curious. My guess is they are a ways off and this is a PR stunt to bolster their position for investors.

Because there is no working, demonstrable-to-public prototype yet. It's PR, Marketing and Stock Boosting 101. I really do want it to gain traction, I hope the actual product is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

What do you mean by level?

What about the iPod campaign, which Apple ran for years with images such as these:



... with the product barely even visible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Huh? Whatever they happen to be advertising, they are both advertisements.

Dude, you're stretching here These are ads which, IIRC, ran after the iPod itself was introduced and demoed. It wasn't a product introduction.
post #219 of 412
BTW did you guys see Micro-HDMI as the output? Aww yeah, this is definitely out of Apple's playbook. Seriously though, if Apple did this they would be crucified by some on this forum.
post #220 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Conclusions:

-- they haven't defined the UI
-- there is no OS
-- there is no SDK or Simulator

Apple pulled OS X experts to work on finalizing the first iOs from a running system (demoed).
It took trained experts 3 months to finalize iOS 1.

There is no way in hell that this will be ready for release before 3Q 2011!

.

As the CNBC article stated, they are shipping it to partners in the next month for testing.

RIM just bought 200 software engineers on the QNX deal.
post #221 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

BTW did you guys see Micro-HDMI as the output? Aww yeah, this is definitely out of Apple's playbook. Seriously though, if Apple did this they would be crucified by some on this forum.

They probably would. Apple still gets vilified for using the same 30-pin connector for 8 years straight and across 3 different product categories accounting for hundreds of millions of devices sold.

Apple will have to update that connector one day to something smaller and leaner. Maybe they will wait for optical, but then you can have to the majority of PCs to have optical or include an optical to copper convertor. Neither seem ideal.

Note that micro-HDMI is part of the v1.4 spec which is a very good thing for HDMI so in this case there really is no reason for anyone to complain unless they dont include the cable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
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post #222 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

As the CNBC article stated, they are shipping it to partners in the next month for testing.

RIM just bought 200 software engineers on the QNX deal.

That's a bunch of crap -- if you can't see that, what's the point...

Just who and how many are these "partners"'? Where do I apply?

What are they 'shipping" -- the only tangible shown was a marketing video?

How long does it take to gather 200 software engineers (or 200 anybodys) for a meeting?

Are these 200 high-paid engineers just sitting around looking for something to to? Or, are they committed to ongoing projects with deadlines?

10 experts might be able to do the OS, frameworks, and APIs in 6 months after the hardware and UI are defined.

.
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– Alan Kay –
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post #223 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

What's "fake" about the video? In fact it looks a lot like something Apple might do. A public demo also doesn't tell you much except that they've got working prototypes. I don't have any idea whether this product will be any good, or whether it will ship in three or six months, or never. But I think it's silly to criticize RIM for pre-announcing the product with a gee-wiz video, when that's exactly the kind of thing Apple does, and does so well.

It is far from exactly what Apple does:

1) Apple demoed the product, and gave hands-on access on the same day. RIM didn't even show a live movie of the thing in actual use.

2) Apple gave a price.

3) Apple gave battery life.

4) Apple specified shipping in < 3 months; RIM 3 to 8 months, and considering the absence of a demo, the longer time is more likely.

5) When Apple announced the ipad, there were no other similar tablets in the wild. RIM is announcing a me-too product.

Other than that, exactly the same.

(Apple announced the iphone 6 months before it shipped, but they had to apply for operating permits ahead of time, and that would have let the cat out, and again, it had essentially no competition when it was released, and again, a live demo, price, battery life, and shipping month were given on the day of the announcement.)
post #224 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwight View Post

It is far from exactly what Apple does:

1) Apple demoed the product, and gave hands-on access on the same day. RIM didn't even show a live movie of the thing in actual use.

2) Apple gave a price.

3) Apple gave battery life.

4) Apple specified shipping in < 3 months; RIM 3 to 8 months, and considering the absence of a demo, the longer time is more likely.

5) When Apple announced the ipad, there were no other similar tablets in the wild. RIM is announcing a me-too product.

Other than that, exactly the same.

(Apple announced the iphone 6 months before it shipped, but they had to apply for operating permits ahead of time, and that would have let the cat out, and again, it had essentially no competition when it was released, and again, a live demo, price, battery life, and shipping month were given on the day of the announcement.)

You don't make many posts, but if this is any indication -- we're missing a lot!

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #225 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Just who and how many are these "partners"'? Where do I apply?

you'll have to contact RIM for the details. and if you're interested in becoming a partner, this site may prove useful http://www.rim.com/company/contact/index.shtml

Quote:
What are they 'shipping" -- the only tangible shown was a marketing video?

development kits

Quote:
How long does it take to gather 200 software engineers (or 200 anybodys) for a meeting?

teleconferencing is a common means to gather people from various geographic locations into a meeting

Quote:
Are these 200 high-paid engineers just sitting around looking for something to to? Or, are they committed to ongoing projects with deadlines?

QNX Software Systems continues as a business as always. i don't see them being idle. more information about QNX is over at http://www.qnx.com/

Quote:
10 experts might be able to do the OS, frameworks, and APIs in 6 months after the hardware and UI are defined.

where did you get these figures? are you experienced in embedded OS design and development?
post #226 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwight View Post

It is far from exactly what Apple does: ...

i agree. and, it should be interesting to see how the PlayBook fares in the marketplace next year and beyond.
post #227 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Oh come on. Enough with the double standards. Apple does this kind of thing all the time.

Well, I'm tired and maybe my brain isn't working all that well, but I can't think of a single time in any of SJs presentations where he didn't have a working device there. It may not have been a finished product for sale but afaik he always had a device there. Perhaps you know of a specific time that I have forgotten about?

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post #228 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

That's a bunch of crap -- if you can't see that, what's the point...

.

Then you have to assume that RIM is terminally stupid, and provide evidence of the fact based on their history.

They announce a product and say that they are shipping it to corporate clients in a month.

You claim 6-8 months (how you figure that is a mystery).

If they don't ship by October, early November, they will be crucified and they know that.

So you are saying that RIM is knowingly performing actions that will cause a substantial decline in their share price.
post #229 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

You don't make many posts, but if this is any indication -- we're missing a lot!

I second it.
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post #230 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72 View Post

where did you get these figures? are you experienced in embedded OS design and development?

Not an expert, but have worked on and observed enough software projects to know what's attainable.

Where am I wrong?

Is 10 people to few? To many? How about 50? 100? Or 200 as the OP implied?

What about the time period? We have 33 days until October 31 -- the last day that RIM can ship the "kits" to their "partners" and meet their (supposedly announced) deadline/

That's not a lot of time! If they are going to make it, shouldn't they at least be able to show a simulated (or even story-boarded) illustration of the UI?

At the very least they could take iOS or Android SDKs and use them as a guideline for the UI and APIs.

But, they have nothing to show today! This was their Big day!. Their big chance to make a good impression. They showed a "concept" movie-- they have nothing else!

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
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post #231 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Selling the sizzle instead of the steak. Apple's ads don't dwell on specifications, or even the functions of their products. If the ads work at all, it's because they make you excited about the concept they are selling. I've got nothing against it; this is just how advertising works. This is what RIM is doing with this ad. Very light on the specifics and long on eye-catching generalities. A lot like an Apple ad, is what I thought when I saw it. That BTW is not a criticism. Apple is the master of this approach.

Nice reply, too bad it had nothing to do with the post you were replying to. If you follow the "trail" you will see he wanted you to elaborate on your statement that Apple,with regards to using fake videos, "do it all the time". Better luck next time.

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post #232 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

Then you have to assume that RIM is terminally stupid, and provide evidence of the fact based on their history.

They announce a product and say that they are shipping it to corporate clients in a month.

You claim 6-8 months (how you figure that is a mystery).

If they don't ship by October, early November, they will be crucified and they know that.

So you are saying that RIM is knowingly performing actions that will cause a substantial decline in their share price.

No. that'swhat you are saying.

And, you must not believe them because you are hedging their date for them-- from October to "early November".

As I said in an earlier post, RIM has provided a few hard specs, and left themselves a lot of wiggle room!

We were misquoted, taken out of context, we want to take extra time to get the UX just right... shit happens. All these are available excuses.

Likely, what RIM showed today was the best they could cobble together. The fact that they couldn't show even a powered on device... tells me they don't have one worth showing!

Is that difficult to understand?

Then you should ask the logical follow on question-- If the Bride doesn't make an appearance at her wedding, what makes you think she'll make one at the honeymoon?

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #233 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

We were misquoted, taken out of context... shit happens. All these are available excuses.

.

Excuses don't mean "shit" to use your terminology. The news is out there, and any decent company has at least a few people monitoring the news that came out.

If they were "misquoted" or "taken out of context" and really have no plans to ship for 6-8 months as you assert, there would have been (or will be be by tomorrow) a statement to that effect.

You do not claim to ship a product in a month to clients when there is no hope or chance that that will happen, which is essentially what you are asserting.
post #234 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I've challenged people who say this to show me how RIM could be so stupid as to release a video a product that will either never arrive or not look at all like the promotional ad, but I notice nobody has taken me up on it.

And we challenge you to back up your claim that Apple use fake videos all the time. .... still waiting. I'll check in tomorrow and see what you come up with.

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post #235 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

Excuses don't mean "shit" to use your terminology. The news is out there, and any decent company has at least a few people monitoring the news that came out.

If they were "misquoted" or "taken out of context" and really have no plans to ship for 6-8 months as you assert, there would have been (or will be be by tomorrow) a statement to that effect.

You do not claim to ship a product in a month to clients when there is no hope or chance that that will happen, which is essentially what you are asserting.

First. I do not know that RIM claimed that they will ship a product in a month... even if they said that, what's a product. A somewhat working device? A buggy SDK and a Simulator with lots of missing documentation and APIs-- it'll be Beta, right? Who Knows?

As others have said, more eloquently, I think that RIM is trying to do whatever it takes to persuade their business customers to wait for a RIM Tablet solution.

Today, RIM placed its marker on the table -- It intends to do this as well and as soon as possible...

But what comprises "it" is not sufficiently defined as to what or when. I think that was what was intended,

Why do it now?

What else could they do?

Excuses do mean "shit" if you are telling loyal followers what they want to hear... Longhorn!

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #236 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism;1722682
My point is made better by this comparison to the Nokia N97 promo video, not unlike what we have in the PlayBook video except the N97 promo video actually focuses on the device itself, even if it all done by skilled animators. Note, the limitations of the N97 aren’t just the speed of transitions but how they are done. We’ll see when this comes out how accurate this video was to the real OS and UI on the real HW.[INDENT


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpEuMidcSU[/INDENT]

I'd like to refer back to this. Several people are saying that it's highly unlikely or beyond the pale to think that RIM would wildly misrepresent their new OS-- that they'd have to be stupid or crazy to expose themselves to that kind of grief, and that there's no evidence that they're that stupid.

But Nokia did precisely this, and Nokia isn't generally thought of as "stupid", in that sense (they don't seem to be very good at hanging onto market share, but I never thought of them as duplicitous or erratic, particularly). But they went ahead and made that video. I can imagine the exact argument being made here being made upon viewing the N97 piece. The same admiration for the fluidity and style of the UI, the same dismissal of the idea that Nokia would be so insane as to just make shit up, the same request that someone provide evidence of Nokia's capacity for that level of folly.

I think the thread has confusingly conflated several meanings of "vaporware." I don't doubt that RIM will be shipping something, even if it's somewhat delayed. I also think it's entirely possible that that something won't actually behave much like the video, which plays more like a broad conceptual piece than a demonstration of any product. If that proves to be the case I'm sure RIM could point out that the application of screens to various real world objects made it clear that the video was just dreaming about the future, or something. But I really don't think it's out of the question that this kind of rendered publicity can get pretty far afield from actual shipping product.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #237 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

What's "fake" about the video? In fact it looks a lot like something Apple might do. A public demo also doesn't tell you much except that they've got working prototypes. I don't have any idea whether this product will be any good, or whether it will ship in three or six months, or never. But I think it's silly to criticize RIM for pre-announcing the product with a gee-wiz video, when that's exactly the kind of thing Apple does, and does so well.

I have used Apple products for quite sometime. I never followed their press conferences, until recently.

I have yet encountered an instance when Apple announced a product without a working prototype (see caveat below)-- not just a "mock-up" of a concept product, like many tech companies do.

Was it many many years ago when Bill Gates, with all the fanfare, even a prototype to show, announced the coming Microsoft handheld tablet computer, stylus and all? It was supposed to revolutionize mobile computing. I was so ecstatic then when I became more familiar with the ways of Gates, and Microsoft. Until now, some Apple detractors use the Bill Gates demo to suggest that MS was the first to conceive such a tablet device???

It is not exactly the same analogy, but the "boy who cried wolf, or something comes to mind" -- "It's coming! It's coming! It's coming!" -- or some related parables and stories. In this case, the "alarmist" made the proclamation so many times that later on, no one believed him, when the menace really came.

Microsoft and Bill Gates, touted so many "concept" products before, sometimes even with actual "prototypes", only to be proved illusory as actual consumer products. Was in only this year when they shelved the latest iteration of the "clam shell" tablet, after the iPad was announced, and even before it was known to be a success?

What was more in character, was that when Microsoft actually comes out with a consumer product, that was sure to resonate with consumers, the latter seemed to look somewhere else? Zune, and yeah, their iPhone killers (that I cannot even recall now, that had to be abandoned, only after? They still have faith on the Zune though, and the incoming "Windows 7 Phone?" or whatever it may be called in the future.

Announcemens, like this by RIM thought is not just limited to computer/software ccompanies. Remember all those mock up products of mass media companies that were supposed to exploit the potential of the innovative promises of the iPad, or similar table devices? Until now, they remain "video demos". I have yet to see a working magazine App that truly exploits the capabilities of the tablet.

In fact, as many people in the know, even so-called journalists and analysts, may even already subconsciously imbibed:

"There are announcements. And, there are Apple product announcements." The Pew research just confirmed this.

If I have to hazard, even Apple haters, accept this. Otherwise, I feel at a lost to understand why some people spends so much time in forums, like this, to share they thoughts about products they profess to be subpar to, and extolling those from other companies, or those "concept products yet to come. "They're coming! They're coming!" (many times, they do not come at all)

What makes Apple different? Until Apple has a working prototype, in their quarterly press conferences for their financial report, Apple reps never confirm nor deny, about a purported (every analyst is so sure) prduct will be manufactured by Apple. As it turned out, many of those rumors, were untrue.

Even if it were true, Apple would not confirm or deny its existence, until they are ready to announce, that indeed a product is coming. Is it any wonder why "many" get so "excited" to a frenzy sometimes, even Apple and Steve Jobs detractors, schedule an "Announcement"?

By the time, they announce a "working prototype", they already have a good idea what the price would be -- because they already are at manufacturing stage to be able to estimate the cost to manufacture (e.g., the iPad, iPods), and/or have already negotiated with any company that will subsidize the product, AT&T, and respective telcos in other countries with the iPhone), and sorts of costs associated with the sale of a new product.

The "grand announcement" of Apple of a "new product therefore gets much attention, because it allows pundits to claim they made a correct prognostication. Apart from being truly innovative or one that may resonate with the average consumer, everyone knows that the product will indeed come.

Can you say that of Microsoft announcements, or all those demos that come out every year at the CES? Or, those "grand announcements" by many companies?

If there is one caveat to what I stated above, one that I could think of would be the "white iPhone 4". I am not privy to any insider of Apple, including how things are manufactured. However, if I give Apple the benefit of the doubt, and be more "generous", I would surmise that it is just Steve Jobs being picky about the most minute details, like the color of the "white iPhone". After all, except for the manufacture of the outer casing, the black iPhone was not only a working prototype, but was actually a "consumer product" -- much desired, in spite of all the "Antennagate" that seem to just have disappeared in the media.

I wonder sometimes why everyone in the massmedia, and Consumer Report, seem to have had amnesia, considering how they portrayed the problem.

Is it any wonder why Apple gets so much press coverage? Is it any wonder why many people love Apple so much, a devotion they do not seem to bestow to any tech company? Is it any wonder why many people hate Apple and Steve Jobs?

Just curious where you will categorize yourself?

Personally, I would like for other companies to come up with viable competition to any Apple product. However I feel about Android phones, for example, or whatever motivated Google to do so, I am glad that they are making Apple rethink their strategies. More power to companies that can truly comoete with any Apple products. It prods Apple to innovate even further.

I feel disgusted sometimes with the tendency of both parties to attempt to justify the choices of Apple, as if they as if those specifications are sacrosant -- "Apple can do no mistake", and for the adversary to nit pick or overblow, any "missing" specification, and then extoll products of the competition, even before it was even in their hands.

Where is the spirit to help each other find the best, for us consumers?

When I first came here, or for that matter, related forums, I thought it would be a good way to learn from the expertise and/or experience of others. And, I did post a few inquiries, in the past.

No one ever responded, "Google" to my requests, but to those who respond with "Google it!", or something similar to some posts here: "What were you trying to say?" Do you honestly believe that someone who found a site, like "AppleInsider", never heard of "Google"? Geez, "AppleInsider" must be inherently known to everyone.

Is it really just plain laziness on the part of the poster? Or, they were seeking more elaborations, from people they think may have more technical experties than themselves?

Why is it that the "outrageous" posts, from our perspective, elicit the most response? Do we really think our chosen adversary will change their mind?

What are our priorities here? Just curious: What did we think we really achieved after posting hundreds, sometimes thousands of posts, in this forum?


CGC

N.B.

The emphasis (bold) in the quote above was mine. Not that I considered the quoted post the most bizzare, but something else resonated.
post #238 of 412
.

Cisco announced their 7" tablet on June 29.

In many ways, it is similar to the PlayBook.

Except, it has an available and proven OS (Android) and a proven CPU (Atom).

Their original video showed the device, but it was not turned on or demoed.

Their latest video is a mock up of what it will look like when running -- a better, more targeted presentation than the PlayBook video.

It was announced almost 3 months before the PlayBook.

I cannot find any reliable price and availability information.

Of the PlayBook and Cius, which do you think will ship first?

Have a look:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/29/c...-capabilities/

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
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– Alan Kay –
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post #239 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

The iPhone 4 has 512 MB, it's quite possible that the iPad 2 will have a gig as well and launch in a similar timeframe.

The iPhone 4 has 16Gb or 32Gb of RAM NOT 512MB.

The PlayBook only has 1GB or on board storage.
post #240 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I'd like to refer back to this. Several people are saying that it's highly unlikely or beyond the pale to think that RIM would wildly misrepresent their new OS-- that they'd have to be stupid or crazy to expose themselves to that kind of grief, and that there's no evidence that they're that stupid.

The issue is not that RIM "misrepresented" their OS. there are people like Dick Applebaum who are claiming that RIM flat out lied - not misrepresented, but lied about the OS and their tablet, supposedly to hold their customer base.

This is from Dick
Begin Quote
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Conclusions:

-- they haven't defined the UI
-- there is no OS
-- there is no SDK or Simulator

Apple pulled OS X experts to work on finalizing the first iOs from a running system (demoed).
It took trained experts 3 months to finalize iOS 1.

There is no way in hell that this will be ready for release before 3Q 2011!
End of Quote

So it is not that there is a misrepresentation as you suggest. Dick Applebaum is claiming that RIM got up in front of the press and in effect said:

"we have this OS from QNX that is going to run our tablet that we will ship in a few months at the beginning of 2011",

However, according to Dick, in reality, there is no OS at all, and the tablet will not ship for another year.

That is what people are saying is implausible, because RIM would have to be truly stupid to do something like that.
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