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post #41 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

As bad as Flash is, let's face it... HTML5 thus far has proven far less capable than Flash. Adobe should really commit to cleaning up their code and make Flash leaner and more stable. The HTML workarounds are not as sophisticated or interesting as a clever Flash implementation.

Flash is yesterday's technology. HTML5 is tomorrow's. Flash is proprietary. HTML5 is an open standard. Flash drains the batteries of mobile devices. HTML5 is more battery-friendly.

Those are merely the facts. Feel free to ignore them, as other device makers have. But what's happening is that the owners of those devices are discovering that their batteries don't last as long as they like, and that Flash is (a) used mainly for ads (so you're draining your battery - to see ads) and (b) usually NOT optimized for mobile touchscreen devices (i.e., it doesn't work properly).

Run your mouth all you like about how the i-devices 'must' run Flash. Blah, blah, blah. At the end of the day, Jobs and Co. made a gutsy, 100% correct call.
post #42 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

Well, I guess Apple does not steer the internet. Steve Jobs's mandate that all developers abandon Flash has fallen on deaf ears. So to protect their iOS hardware sales, Apple is going to do "the whole banana" yet again. History repeats itself.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just partner with Adobe and make everyone happy?

1) what mandate that developers stop developing for flash? Making up you own headlines are we today?? :-(

2) Apple has gotten along with Adobe for 3-7 years and in that time Adobe has done crap to upgrade FLASH for Mac. Steve got tired of waiting around.

PS, there still is not really flash for mobile. 10.1 is a good start but most machines and most web sites cannot do it without updates and changes.

Just a thought here.
en
post #43 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchelljd View Post

With so many competitors lining up to the iPad and iPhone, the stance against flash and java is beyond silly.

I agree. It is only a matter of time before android market share matches iOS and now even blackberry can run flash (not sure about the phones but the new blackberry playbook does). Soon apple and iOS are going to be in the minority with a relatively featureless product....

Sure websites like youtube and iplayer have mobile versions that run - no flash required but let's be honest.... The flash sites are much much better. You guys in the UK check out iplayer on the ipad for a perfect example.

Apple has really run themselves into a corner with the whole anti flash thing. Soon people will realise that limited choice and featureless is not worth it just to have a shiny apple logo.
post #44 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Im not sure I get where you are coming from. The basis of the iAd development was assuming Apple is making a platform that would allow ads to be made with relative ease and put in to sites as easily as Googles ads are, not for each webmaster to build and design the ads for their site from scratch.

I could be completely wrong, but as I understand it iAds can only be developed and implemented through Apple, or through Apple's ad agency. There are no iAd development tools, just a way for application developers to integrate iAds into their apps.

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post #45 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryb View Post

Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money. Margaret Thatcher, 1976

We can't return to this kind of thinking.

And this has exactly what to do with HTML5?
post #46 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Did you notice how it kept dropping the connection and resetting back to the beginning of the presentation? At first I was not able to figure out how to overcome that until I hit option/ refresh which then sent me to the current live broadcast again. That part still needs a bit of work, but overall I thought it was a pretty bold move to make the presentation live, and it worked quite well.

Yeah, that was a bit irritating. Was that something glitchy in the implementation or load dependent or what?

IQ, though, it was quite good, and if Apple can get the kinks worked out (or add servers or whatever) I think they have a real differentiator here. It'll also be nice if their desire to showcase the tech means more live feeds from Apple events, like the good old days. I'd much rather watch the thing itself than to take my chances with possibly snarky "live-blogging" (although Ars seems to hit a pretty good mix of accurate presentation with a little personality).
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post #47 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

And this has exactly what to do with HTML5?

I think it's clear: HTML5 is Hitler.
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post #48 of 93
I hope these 'innovative' web sites are designed in such a way to work with most HTML5 capable browsers (including, Opera, Firefox and IE9) and not simply be limited to WebKit based browsers (Safari and Chrome). This is especially true when bringing in the related CSS3 and Javascript components into play,
post #49 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by knwbuddy View Post

What is the best strategy for users in the meantime? ISTM that HTML5 is rudimentary at this point, and additionally, has not yet become a standard.

I can't believe that it is best for consumers to just shut themselves off from using resources because someday, things will be different. I see that as being similar to avoiding driving until electric cars are ubiquitous. It makes no sense to me.

But I suppose that the grapes are too sour these days.

Most browsers have robust HTML5 and CSS3 support. Get a clue.
post #50 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by knwbuddy View Post

What is the best strategy for users in the meantime? ISTM that HTML5 is rudimentary at this point, and additionally, has not yet become a standard.

I can't believe that it is best for consumers to just shut themselves off from using resources because someday, things will be different. I see that as being similar to avoiding driving until electric cars are ubiquitous. It makes no sense to me.

But I suppose that the grapes are too sour these days.

HTML5 itself is actually just one building block of all the new interactive sites which we are seeing—sites which used to require something like Flash to behave (clumsily) in a comparable way. JavaScript's capabilities are advanced and established (and growing; getting faster) while we've got other tools like SVG, CSS, Canvas. HTML5 itself, while not a finalized standard (that's a long way out) is perfectly usable in many regards and in many applications. One particular element of Flash which cannot even dream of competing is in the field of accessibility and adaptability.

It is a rather large subject and there's a great deal of misunderstanding and misrepresentation (for example, creating bouncing balls in Canvas as a comparison to Flash—that's just stupid). In short, though, the combination of these technologies will replace more and more of what we know Flash to do today. Right now there are some major hurdles for advanced animation. One is backward compatibility. Another is cost/development time. There's no reason why JavaScript and these technologies cannot achieve something incredible, but without a proper development environment to piece it all together as readily as Flash (the application) can create Flash videos, that's mostly something to look forward to in the future or enjoy at the hands of large firms (e.g. Apple, Microsoft) or highly skilled developers.

In terms of what can and can't be used? It depends on the project and, especially, the demographic. Is a site designed for a whole mess of users who, somehow, are still using IE6? These new open technologies aren't going to cut it. Flash will be needed for a high level of interactive capabilities. Designing something for a technologically inclined audience? You can up the game quite a bit if you wish and leave Flash in the gutter. Some things, like slightly more complicated games, just aren't practical using these technologies yet.

Apple is after Flash's blood because Adobe has not been good to the OS X platform traditionally, and Flash sucks horribly on mobile devices to this day. Yes, that includes all Android devices. It only runs smoothly for basic operation (e.g. certain advertisements) and mobile-optimized media. From there you start to run into everything ranging from annoying/jerky scrolling to end-of-line errors and crashes. Flash has a long way to go. Companies like Apple cannot push it along the way, or help to develop it into what it needs to be. I can't blame them for wanting Flash to die, and as a developer myself, I want to see it die too. Well, I want to see it die for standard website functions such as video, navigation, presentation. Actual content should almost never require something like Flash to access.

Professionals? They should be thinking forward. If these new technologies are not yet appropriate for their website or project they should be designing with them in mind. Present video using HTML5 and fall back on Flash (easier said than done for very large established companies, but they'll come around as they need to). But for some time the demographic and budget are going to dictate some of these decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CIM View Post

Most browsers have robust HTML5 and CSS3 support. Get a clue.

1) Don't be a jerk. Why be so rude?
2) Most new browsers have good support for key parts of HTML5 and CSS 3. Webkit is the best with good offerings from Mozilla Firefox and Opera as well. IE8 is workable, but is is definitely holding many things back. Microsoft seems to be working hard to turn this around and IE9 looks like it may have some good potential. But what matters most? It isn't what most modern browsers support, but rather what the browsers being used by most users support. We've still got crap like IE7 and IE6 out there, and that holds the whole internet (and especially these technologies) back.
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post #51 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I could be completely wrong, but as I understand it iAds can only be developed and implemented through Apple, or through Apple's ad agency. There are no iAd development tools, just a way for application developers to integrate iAds into their apps.

No there is now an SDK for all iOS devs. If i'm not revealing too much, there is a stipulation that the SDK, which is almost all javascript, be used only for delivery of iAds to iDevices. Not that Apple hasn't changed their User Agreement before but that part would have to be modified to bring iAds to the web proper.

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post #52 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

Flash drains the batteries of mobile devices. HTML5 is more battery-friendly.

What makes you believe that moving multi-sprite animations will be more battery-friendly in an engine that not only has to do the same work as Flash, but also to parse a lot of XML to do it?

Moving lots of image data around simply takes horsepower.

If HTML5 looks like less of a battery drain than Flash maybe it's only because most folks are doing relatively trivial things with it.
post #53 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Well that's what I mean! If you use Safari 5.x.x and Snow Leopard 10.6.4 you can get a HTML5 video tag with what looks like a Quicktime file format... it's not what I would call a flagship HTML5 video implementation

Oh, it's a flagship allright: one tiny boat while the rest of the fleet is doing something else.
post #54 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Oh, it's a flagship allright: one tiny boat while the rest of the fleet is doing something else.

Does "the rest of the fleet" not include IE and Chrome?
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post #55 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Apple tried, Adobe wouldn't play fair.

What specific actions did Adobe take that you feel were "unfair"?

Quote:
Adobe is part of why the whole Carbon/Cocoa thing existed. They were in the top of the list for developers that didn't want to 'waste time' converting their software over to be Native Mac OSX compliant.

Are you aware that Apple's commonly used OS X app, the Finder, wasn't ported to Cocoa until this very latest OS version, Snow Leopard? How many years after OS X premiered did that take Apple?

And can you tell us when Apple's own Final Cut Pro will be converted to Cocoa?
post #56 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Does "the rest of the fleet" not include IE and Chrome?

Chome has a tiny market share, and given Microsoft's history of ship dates which do you think will happen first: IE9 will ship, or HTML5 will be finalized?

See also:
http://www.deepbluesky.com/blog/-/br...-and-html5_72/

...where you'll find the current status of IE support for HTML5:
post #57 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Oh, but Flash games, FWIW is not replaceable by HTML5 at this stage.

This one's kinda fun... But also shows the limits of web games development, in terms of resources and income.
http://www.crazymonkeygames.com/Shadez.html

What do you guys think of Flash games?

Almost everything in Flash can be replicated with HTML 5 + Canvas + Javascript. Once you have a programmable graphics context that supports vectors you can build pretty much any type of graphics content. Here's a games site with HTML 5 games on it:

http://html5games.com/2010/04/asteroids/

That site has quite a number of games. Some Flash games will look nicer as the SDK is more mature and has effects like motion blur and particle animations but it's just a matter of time until those things are added to HTML 5 if they haven't been done already by 3rd parties. There are even HTML 5 game engines:

http://ajaxian.com/archives/aves-game-engine

HTML 5 and especially Canvas have been designed with the intention of fulfilling the role that Flash has taken up. An IDE would be nice but someone can even build an HTML 5 builder in HTML 5. That's sort of what the Sproutcore software does. That's something Flash can't do - author content for itself. Flash also can't do things like the following as easily:

http://www.chromeexperiments.com/detail/browser-ball/

The reason being that the graphics context is inside an SWF instance so you can't address it nearly as easily as a DOM object like Canvas.

Also note, the above HTML 5 games use very little CPU assuming you have a recent browser. Much less CPU than a typical Flash game. Naturally hardware accelerated Flash will improve the situation but it doesn't change the long term situation. Flash has had its day and it needs to be replaced by a much more flexible open standard. Adobe has proven time and time again it can't be relied up as the sole provider of rich web media.
post #58 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryb View Post

Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money. Margaret Thatcher, 1976

We can't return to this kind of thinking.

amazingly, you did it again
post #59 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

??? Was this intended for a different blog?

No no - he just missed the first line out. It should have read... "HTML5 is nothing like Capitlists who generally don't code." Then what he said....
post #60 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

As bad as Flash is, let's face it... HTML5 thus far has proven far less capable than Flash. Adobe should really commit to cleaning up their code and make Flash leaner and more stable. The HTML workarounds are not as sophisticated or interesting as a clever Flash implementation.

But OTOH, it begs the question: is there enough "clever" Flash implementation out there to justify sitting around and waiting while Adobe, who has owned this product for a long time, to finally get it right? Frankly, by volume there is an order of magnitude more Flash crap. For example, I don't miss 99% of what my flashblocker blocks from most sites. Now I may not be mainstream, or an "average consumer" but this speaks volumes to me about content delivery via Flash. I wonder if we get too enamoured of the tool and fail to see that the tool produces a prodigious amount of utter crap, which if sifted occasionally produces a gem or three. OT: I wish there was a good way to do that with all the blogs choking up the bandwidth - a relevancy checker or something that could be tailored to individaul use.


Anyway yes HTML5 is not yet, or may never be, the compleat content toolset that Flash has provided, but at this point, I will pretty much take anything that wrests control of content generation from the lakadaisical and conflicted control of Adobe management and a single, proprietary toolset.
post #61 of 93
I dont know how may one vs Everyone else wars Apple will fight.
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post #62 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Almost everything in Flash can be replicated with HTML 5 + Canvas + Javascript. Once you have a programmable graphics context that supports vectors you can build pretty much any type of graphics content. Here's a games site with HTML 5 games on it:

http://html5games.com/2010/04/asteroids/

While running that game the CPU on my MBP spiked to 98%. Gosh, I thought only Flash did that.

Quote:
That site has quite a number of games. Some Flash games will look nicer as the SDK is more mature and has effects like motion blur and particle animations but it's just a matter of time until those things are added to HTML 5 if they haven't been done already by 3rd parties. There are even HTML 5 game engines:

http://ajaxian.com/archives/aves-game-engine

Ironically, the video on that page uses Flash.
post #63 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjw View Post

I agree. It is only a matter of time before android market share matches iOS and now even blackberry can run flash (not sure about the phones but the new blackberry playbook does). Soon apple and iOS are going to be in the minority with a relatively featureless product....

Sure websites like youtube and iplayer have mobile versions that run - no flash required but let's be honest.... The flash sites are much much better. You guys in the UK check out iplayer on the ipad for a perfect example.

Apple has really run themselves into a corner with the whole anti flash thing. Soon people will realise that limited choice and featureless is not worth it just to have a shiny apple logo.

Marketshare - since it is the only metric that android fans can bring to the table - a logical selection to throw up here. But not relevant in light of all the other statistics for the platforms. And the clock is ticking on Android anyway. Google doesn't have the support infrastructure to maintain Android for an extended length of time and Microsoft is poised to wrestle Google best two out of three falls for the marketshare Redmond surrendered to Google in handhelds. Just wait. As soon as they are ready to spring ChromeOS to the public via tablets and netbooks Android will be put out to semi-retirement.

Don't know where you've been but Apple has ALWAYS been a minority marketshare in computers - just the most profitable part of the market. iPods were an anomaly, pretty much because none of the other PMP makers had the foresight to build a coherent ecosystem to support their devices. Ironically, with the amount of market growth Apple is showing across pretty much all of it's consumer products (you do follow the news and stuff - right?) the rest of your commentary is pretty much meaningless nonsense. How soon is "soon" going to be anyway? Never mind, you don't have the remotest idea regarding the subject matter do you.
post #64 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by knwbuddy View Post

I disagree. Apple can and does change their strategy when they believe the change is a path to increased profits. They are making a big gamble here, but they can and will cut their losses if it is the wisest choice at the time.

They are huge, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to be nimble. But I wouldn't say that they are anywhere near a corner yet. They can change course any time it becomes a wise thing to do.

So far, iPad sales are booming, despite the lack of certain things. Plenty of people fail to realize what you identify. And Apple makes huge profits currently. Whether enough people will eventually realize - nobody knows. But betting against Apple has been foolish for several years now.

My whole point is based on the fact that the market is about to be flooded with competition touting flash on mobile devices - people will notice then...
post #65 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by knwbuddy View Post

I disagree. Apple can and does change their strategy when they believe the change is a path to increased profits. They are making a big gamble here, but they can and will cut their losses if it is the wisest choice at the time.

They are huge, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to be nimble. But I wouldn't say that they are anywhere near a corner yet. They can change course any time it becomes a wise thing to do.

So far, iPad sales are booming, despite the lack of certain things. Plenty of people fail to realize what you identify. And Apple makes huge profits currently. Whether enough people will eventually realize - nobody knows. But betting against Apple has been foolish for several years now.

Let's make sure we are comparing things correctly here - Microsoft is HUGE. Massive staff, tall hierarchical management structure, wide network of paid consultants working directly in corporate systems support across the globe. They dwarf Apple in all ways except market capitalization. And while Apple slowly closing the gap on Msoft in profits and networth, they are still run very leanly with less than half the staff. We should not confuse market capitalisation, networth or profitability with actual physical size or operational density. My own Fortune 10 company is over twice the size of Apple.

But for example:

Microsoft (from most recent corporate reporting)
Revenue ~ $62.484 billion
Operating income ~ $24.098 billion
Profit ~ $18.760 billion
Total assets ~ $86.113 billion
Total equity ~ $46.175 billion
Employees ~ 89,000(not counting contractors)
Subsidiaries: in excess of 100 subsidiaries, with operating stakes in over 100 more

Apple (from most recent corporate reporting)
Revenue ~ $42.91 billion
Operating income ~ $11.74 billion
Profit ~ $8.24 billion
Total assets ~ $47.50 billion
Total equity ~ $31.64 billion
Employees ~ 34,300(not including contractors)
Subsidiaries: 2

It seems they are nimble enough to out maneuver the rest of the industry by introducing and selling the iPad - forcing everyone else to cough up knock-offs and wannabees. But yes, they are much bigger and less nimble than you.
post #66 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Chome has a tiny market share, and given Microsoft's history of ship dates which do you think will happen first: IE9 will ship, or HTML5 will be finalized?

See also:
http://www.deepbluesky.com/blog/-/br...-and-html5_72/

...where you'll find the current status of IE support for HTML5:

So what you meant to say is that Apple is in the vanguard of where the fleet is headed, albeit slowly.
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post #67 of 93
Everyone is aware that HTML5 lacks modern tools. And Apple needs iOS devices to offer the best web experiences.

I would bet a gazillion dollars that Apple's interest in 'creating new, innovative websites' is Cupertino's code for building and road-testing a new Mac-based HTML5 web-development tool.
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post #68 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by knwbuddy View Post

I disagree. Apple can and does change their strategy when they believe the change is a path to increased profits. They are making a big gamble here, but they can and will cut their losses if it is the wisest choice at the time.

They are huge, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to be nimble. But I wouldn't say that they are anywhere near a corner yet. They can change course any time it becomes a wise thing to do.

So far, iPad sales are booming, despite the lack of certain things. Plenty of people fail to realize what you identify. And Apple makes huge profits currently. Whether enough people will eventually realize - nobody knows. But betting against Apple has been foolish for several years now.

The reason Apple remains nimble is because of 1 person, Steve Jobs. When he barks, the whole Apple universe shudders.

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post #69 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

Flash is yesterday's technology. HTML5 is tomorrow's.

What is today's technology then?
post #70 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

What is today's technology then?

Both of them.
post #71 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Everyone is aware that HTML5 lacks modern tools. And Apple needs iOS devices to offer the best web experiences.

I would bet a gazillion dollars that Apple's interest in 'creating new, innovative websites' is Cupertino's code for building and road-testing a new Mac-based HTML5 web-development tool.

Adobe has HTML5 tools out.
post #72 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Everyone is aware that HTML5 lacks modern tools. And Apple needs iOS devices to offer the best web experiences.

I would bet a gazillion dollars that Apple's interest in 'creating new, innovative websites' is Cupertino's code for building and road-testing a new Mac-based HTML5 web-development tool.

Content authoring is not Apple's forté. Apple has a poor track record of developing top tier content authoring tools. That is more an Adobe gig. Apple has purchased a few pro tools but developed few other than Motion that I can think of. iWeb is strictly consumer level.

For those who do have experience in JS/CSS programming surely realize what a major can of worms it would be to try to dumb down JS/CSS into a drag and drop GUI. Next to impossible in my opinion. Certainly one of the major things holding up widespread adoption of the technologies.

Apple may be taking the approach of creating a lot of HTML 5 type content just to inspire coders to raise their game a notch because the level of expertise required for high end JS is huge. Pretty steep learning curve.

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post #73 of 93
If you want to test your browser support, visit: http://html5test.com/
post #74 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post



1) Don't be a jerk. Why be so rude?

He's probably being justifiably rude because he knows he's dealing with the new Newtron, Knwbuddy.

But thanks for all the good detail in your replies. This has been an unusually informative thread, with only minor obstructions from the SODs (sowers of discord).
post #75 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Oh, but Flash games, FWIW is not replaceable by HTML5 at this stage.

This one's kinda fun... But also shows the limits of web games development, in terms of resources and income.
http://www.crazymonkeygames.com/Shadez.html

What do you guys think of Flash games?

I think I can't be bothered clicking "Click to Flash" on that site.

What do you think of iOS games?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymlCWbxTgds
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post #76 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

I think I can't be bothered clicking "Click to Flash" on that site.

What do you think of iOS games?

Now I don't play flash games, but they have the advantage that they will work on my computer, where ios games won't
post #77 of 93
Let's hope they stop misleading people into thinking Safari is the only browser that support html5, like they do at http://www.apple.com/html5/
post #78 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There will always be a need for fallback. That is what QuickTime, Flash and even Silverlight will be used for in the future of web based video. This is the nature of progress.

I almost totally agree...

The video tag should be the no.1 priority with h.264 and then WebM. If the user doesn't have a browser capable of the video tag Apple could fall back to QuickTime, or alternatively they could just display something along the lines of "You need a HTML5 compatible browser to view this movie. Upgrade your browser using one of the links below..."

I imagine people still running IE6\\7\\8 or older versions of Safari, Chrome, Firefox and Opera would eventually get the point if most websites started doing the same thing.
post #79 of 93
Development tools are needed not web sites.

How about e-learning development tools!? The iPad is the perfect mobile device for e-learning, and yet, most e-learning 'stuff' is coded in Flash. Bummer.

So, someone please develop some easy to use excellent e-learning tools.
post #80 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

I think this is a head fake for what they are really up to... iAds for the general web. Google be warned!

You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.

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