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Apple rumored to be testing touchscreen panels for new iMac - Page 2

post #41 of 135
10/1/10 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You're beginning to sound like an old fogey. People said the very same things about mice and drop down menus. I've learned to ignore the negative comments.

I sometimes find myself reaching for my screen to touch something, and then belatedly remember I'm using my Mac Pro rather than my iPad. Since you didn't keep your iPad because you couldn't figure out what to do with it, you're a terrible person to talk to about all of this. You first need to buy another iPad, and USE it. Then you'll understand.

Other than that, my last post gives some reasons why this will work.

I think a 'touch' anything with OSX is unlikely and I can't see an iMac with IOS and I definitely cannot see dual OS machine. I think it is more likely that a new device (as in the pictures) featuring a larger screen (15"-17" perhaps) and IOS is a possibility. This, to me, would make more sense as an incremental step in ushering IOS in as a new consumer OS. Though I don't have the technical knowledge to figure out if this is plausible I can see an alteration to the OS in order to allow multiple windows to be open side by side (two or more apps at once). This would allow current ipad and iphone apps to run in native resolution without hogging the entire screen.
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post #42 of 135
10/1/10 at 7:44am
I'm not sold on the idea as a solution for the iMac. To me it looks like the patent was designed for the iPad, not the iMac.

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #43 of 135
10/1/10 at 7:44am
I think as others have stated, the trackpad is a better option for touch applications on a desktop, but that's just my opinion. My thought is 1) why would you want to touch your screen? (desktop screens IMO are treated differently) 2) what's the added benefit of a touch screen vs a more conveniently place trackpad? which leads to 3) why would you want to put your monitor in that position every time you want to use a touch app? Wouldn't it be better that the touch app worked in a dashboard-esque environment that you would just use the trackpad for? I guess if the screen were touch sensitive Apple wouldn't have to sell a trackpad, but then again, Apple wouldn't have to sell you a trackpad.
turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
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turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
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post #44 of 135
10/1/10 at 7:45am
I stopped reading when I read that "DigiTimes" reports.

I thing DigiTimes has like a 99.9% fail rate in reporting.
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post #45 of 135
10/1/10 at 7:49am
That's the key - it runs BOTH operating systems - at once. How would it switch? Not by screen orientation - that's awkward. It would probably be completely dependent on which app you selected. The user would not know which OS they were using at any given time. They would only know that certain apps accepted keyboard and mouse (because they needed them!) and some did not. All Mac Apps would run as usual, but iPad apps (optimized for the device) would run as well.

So, you're typing into Word, but then you want to look at some photos. You select iPhoto and start moving them around with your hand on a BIG screen. It's natural and intuitive. Of course you want/need a keyboard for Word, and of course you (generally) do not for iPhoto. Of course you do not need to touch the screen in Word, but you do want to in iPhoto (resize, rotate, move images). Therefore this new iMac gives you exactly the functionality you need, when you need it.

The Finder would be adapted so that it behaved more like like IOS, to take advantage of the touchscreen. It would be running under Mac OS as usual, but you could move files around by hand and resize icons as you would using iOS. (Except you'd still be able to use the touchscreen and keyboard. And have a menu bar.) Vendors of traditional Mac applications would likewise have the option of adapting their apps so they could take advantage of touch, but it would not be mandatory. Developers could afford to wait and see if the platform catches on, but Apple would not be in a place where they were waiting/hoping that apps for their product would be developed (since they already exist).
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post #46 of 135
10/1/10 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) How did Blackintosh get off my ignore list.

I don't know but now that I am, why don't you keep me off and try listening for a change instead of thinking you are so correct in your beliefs that you don't need to hear another opinion. Unless you work for Apple Inc, you don't know jack anymore than I do pal.
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post #47 of 135
10/1/10 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I had to laugh. Sop is always so positive but he does seem to need dragging along on this one.

I disagree (obviously). As previously stated, I have no doubt that Apple will release this sort of tech in a way that is viable and useful (positive statement). But I personally cant see how this is more useful than making the trackpad have a UI output or how physically moving the display every time you want to switch transitions is a benefit to the user. Is it okay for me not to be able to see into the future for once?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #48 of 135
10/1/10 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There's a big difference between Apple and MS Here. MS is devoted to Windows, and has a lot of problems with backwards compatibility. They have no imagination. They've had since 2000 to come up with a workable touch tablet version of Windows, but they've blown it so far. Win Mobile was never successful as a stylus operated OS either.

But Apple has iOS, which unlike Win Mobile, or any other of MS's mobile OS's, is a UNIX, heavy duty OS. MS's mobile OS's are nowhere near as powerful, and they aren't the slightest bit compatible either, because they aren't based on Windows, despite their names.

An advantage Apple has here is that ARM chips, no matter what their incarnations will be in the future, will never be as powerful as Intel's desktop chips, now that Apple is using them for its iMacs. This means that iOS apps, running in emulation, will always run at, or ABOVE their iOS speeds when running on a desktop, and probably even on a laptop. These apps could evolve for a new platform.

This, in addition, means that Apple can integrate iOS with its mother OS, being that the main difference is the desktop, and not the underlying OS.

I can see apps running on the iMac very well, using touch. I can also see desktop apps beginning to use some of the iOS touch methodologies as well, combining them in a way that MS simply cannot do with Windows.

I can also see, in the future, the two OS's being combined in a way that will easily, and naturally allow all input methods to work in an equal way.

When that happens, software companies will follow.

I believe that's one reason we didn't see OS X at the developers conference last june. I feel sure that Apple is doing a lot of work on that, and likely decided to do so after unexpected large sales from the iPad popped up. Apple has said that those sales were much higher than they expected, and are speeding up, which is not the usual situation after the first adopters get theirs. This likely influenced them, and pushed 10.7 back. There are a lot of little birds flying around me, and sometimes their song is too pretty not to listen to.

This, along with all the patents lately, should give one pause.

I'm very much in agreement. Despite how loudly some Mac fans can whine, this year's iOS news and developments have been far more interesting and successful than a preview of 10.7 would have been.

Also, it goes without saying that the longer 10.7 takes to come out, the better it will be. 10.6 is really good, as is, and aside from dozens of house cleaning items I could list, there isn't anything major that I'm waiting for to be part of Mac OS.

iOS has become really exciting with 4.2, and the possibilities just keep getting more and more endless.

In fact, I firmly believe that developers still haven't fully taken advantage of iOS 3.0's feature/API list, let alone iOS 4.
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post #49 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey View Post

I think as others have stated, the trackpad is a better option for touch applications on a desktop, but that's just my opinion. My thought is 1) why would you want to touch your screen? (desktop screens IMO are treated differently) 2) what's the added benefit of a touch screen vs a more conveniently place trackpad? which leads to 3) why would you want to put your monitor in that position every time you want to use a touch app? Wouldn't it be better that the touch app worked in a dashboard-esque environment that you would just use the trackpad for? I guess if the screen were touch sensitive Apple wouldn't have to sell a trackpad, but then again, Apple wouldn't have to sell you a trackpad.

I'd simply say try to imagine all the apps that don't yet exist that will require a large touch screen. The lack of imagination being exhibited here is the problem. I remember the same argument against a GUI, a mouse and lately an iPad.

New uses and associated apps will quickly appear to take advantage and those apps simply are not possible without this next step. Trying to imagine current apps used on a large touch screen may indeed lead one to see it as an unnecessary if not down right uncomfortable step.

Plus I don't think anyone believes Apple would abandon the OS X as is rather this is an optional path and of course may be of no use or interest to many. That's not to say it might not be for others.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #50 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

I don't know but now that I am, why don't you keep me off and try listening for a change instead of thinking you are so correct in your beliefs that you don't need to hear another opinion. Unless you work for Apple Inc, you don't know jack anymore than I do pal.

When your best input on an article is Great, Fingerprints on the Glossy Macs now Too,

Its hardly surprising that you'd be on one or many ignore lists.

The great thing about forums is that there are plenty of people to talk to, discuss, etc. When one person appears to detract from the forum experience, its best to ignore them.

And each individual person has their own level of knowledge and expertise. Some people's comments are good as hearing them from an Apple engineer, in terms of accuracy.

And some people are actually 12 or 13 years old. Their opinions, are, well, that of 12 or 13 year olds.
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post #51 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Maybe I am an old fogey, but note that I did state what I think is a more viable concept and did not discount these patents, in fact I asked for ideas to help me understand what Apple would have in mind for the SW.

Im a terrible person to talk to because my window of usage between my iPhone and 13 MBP was too small to make an iPad a useful addition to my computing needs? That seems a little harsh, especially considering that I use a touch-based phone and have have been wanting more touch-based features on my Macs for years now.

Anyway, I have an iPad WiFi-3G en route with a delivery slated for tomorrow. I actually have need now for an eReader. Was going to get a Kindle for the low price of $139 whilst waiting for the G2 iPad but they arent readily available.

You won't regret it. The iPad screen, while lame compared to the iPhone's retina display, is certainly easy to read.
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post #52 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'm not sold on the idea as a solution for the iMac. To me it looks like the patent was designed for the iPad, not the iMac.

You may well have hit the nail on the head there. It maybe a large iPad indeed and nothing to do with iMac and OS X changes (sadly). However, with all that extra space why not use a more powerful processor and then if that is there why not have OS X too? Tantalizing thoughts ....
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #53 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I disagree (obviously). As previously stated, I have no doubt that Apple will release this sort of tech in a way that is viable and useful (positive statement). But I personally can’t see how this is more useful than making the trackpad have a UI output or how physically moving the display every time you want to switch transitions is a benefit to the user. Is it okay for me not to be able to see into the future for once?

Absolutely as an old fogey, you are allowed a cloudy vision once in a while.

I am jealous you are getting another iPad, I had to return mine to a client grrrr. I still reach for the screen on my MBP, so many things are far easier with a finger directly than a track pad!
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #54 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

That hinge that allow bringing down the screen to the touchscreen position will just be a source of complaints from customers. I have never seen a non-counterbalanced hinge that with constant use doesn't loosen in time. And without a counterbalance, imagine what the weight of the base should be to prevent the monitor/CPU from tipping into the desk when in the touchscreen position. The second hinge at the back of the monitor will also loosen up in time.

Well a similar, if not identical concept worked flawlessly on the G4 iMac arm. Perhaps the balance issue could be addressed by putting the computer in the base, leaving just the lightweight screen to pivot up and down.
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
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post #55 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:42am
I remember the desk in TRON. Virtual keyboard, touch UI. We still haven't reached that vision.

IMHO, a drafting table-like display would be very interesting. For a long time we had big CRT monitors sitting on flat desks. Now that displays have gone flat, it's time to start seriously experimenting with different desk layouts/configurations. I'd like to try my monitors at 30°-60° but most stands don't bend over that far and/or won't let you lower the display to the desk surface.

As some have pointed out, some apps lend themselves to touch manipulation (Photo organizing), some don't (Word processing). The keyboard & pointing device (mouse, trackpad, trackball) works because it minimizes arm movement - it's fast & easy. But PCs have taken root in mobile environments where the fixed desk is not a given and touching the screen is a lot easier (the couch, on a plane).

I really don't like the idea of a machine that runs both Mac OS and iOS. It seems like it would create too much confusion. Is that widget touchable? Why can't I pinch-zoom this? I just foresee a horrible mishmash of UI conventions (not that Apple's been particularly consistent in the UI realm lately). If I want a Mac, I don't want to pay for the touch screen that I'll rarely, if ever, use.

OTOH, if the marginal cost between a touch and non-touch display panel is minimal, why not build machines - laptops especially - with touch built in and put a virtual iPad/iPod in there? But Apple would need to seriously rework the Mac OS UI to be fully touch-integrated - something MS never did. And that reworking would probably create mismatches between good desktop (pointer & keyboard) UI and touchable UI. For example, on a desktop UI click targets can (and should) be smaller.

It's definitely an interesting idea, but one whose time has not yet come.
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post #56 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Maybe I am an old fogey, but note that I did state what I think is a more viable concept and did not discount these patents, in fact I asked for ideas to help me understand what Apple would have in mind for the SW.

Im a terrible person to talk to because my window of usage between my iPhone and 13 MBP was too small to make an iPad a useful addition to my computing needs? That seems a little harsh, especially considering that I use a touch-based phone and have have been wanting more touch-based features on my Macs for years now.

Anyway, I have an iPad WiFi-3G en route with a delivery slated for tomorrow. I actually have need now for an eReader. Was going to get a Kindle for the low price of $139 whilst waiting for the G2 iPad but they arent readily available.

You're a terrible person to talk to about this, because the iPhone is way too small to give a realistic idea of what computing with a touch screen will be like. I really like my iPhone, but it's not nearly the same thing. I don't need an iPad, but I have one. funny the way this works. No one needed a computer in the late '70's either. We didn't get them because we needed them, though, now, we can make a case for why we do.

I NOW need my iPad, just as I need my iPhone. I wouldn't have thought that to be true before I got it.

But you just have to let yourself go. don't just buy the apps you think you NEED. Buy ones that look interesting. They're cheap enough. I'm happy you're going to finally get one. Think positively.
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post #57 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I think a 'touch' anything with OSX is unlikely and I can't see an iMac with IOS and I definitely cannot see dual OS machine. I think it is more likely that a new device (as in the pictures) featuring a larger screen (15"-17" perhaps) and IOS is a possibility. This, to me, would make more sense as an incremental step in ushering IOS in as a new consumer OS. Though I don't have the technical knowledge to figure out if this is plausible I can see an alteration to the OS in order to allow multiple windows to be open side by side (two or more apps at once). This would allow current ipad and iphone apps to run in native resolution without hogging the entire screen.

I don't agree. The only place new interface design can go is with touch. Voice is out, though it always seems cute. We will see this.

Apple will want to simplify their OS's. Combining them is the obvious way to go, and it's not as difficult as you may think. I can see a number of ways this can be done.
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post #58 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post

I remember the desk in TRON. Virtual keyboard, touch UI. We still haven't reached that vision.

IMHO, a drafting table-like display would be very interesting. For a long time we had big CRT monitors sitting on flat desks. Now that displays have gone flat, it's time to start seriously experimenting with different desk layouts/configurations. I'd like to try my monitors at 30°-60° but most stands don't bend over that far and/or won't let you lower the display to the desk surface.

As some have pointed out, some apps lend themselves to touch manipulation (Photo organizing), some don't (Word processing). The keyboard & pointing device (mouse, trackpad, trackball) works because it minimizes arm movement - it's fast & easy. But PCs have taken root in mobile environments where the fixed desk is not a given and touching the screen is a lot easier (the couch, on a plane).

I really don't like the idea of a machine that runs both Mac OS and iOS. It seems like it would create too much confusion. Is that widget touchable? Why can't I pinch-zoom this? I just foresee a horrible mishmash of UI conventions (not that Apple's been particularly consistent in the UI realm lately). If I want a Mac, I don't want to pay for the touch screen that I'll rarely, if ever, use.

OTOH, if the marginal cost between a touch and non-touch display panel is minimal, why not build machines - laptops especially - with touch built in and put a virtual iPad/iPod in there? But Apple would need to seriously rework the Mac OS UI to be fully touch-integrated - something MS never did. And that reworking would probably create mismatches between good desktop (pointer & keyboard) UI and touchable UI. For example, on a desktop UI click targets can (and should) be smaller.

It's definitely an interesting idea, but one whose time has not yet come.

You know, I question whether ... and this is a big IF ... iOS and OS X were both somehow available you'd have to remember which to use ... why would both touch and traditional controls not be possible on the updated apps? Older software would be one or the other I guess but over time they could be 'Dual' function apps and Apple would no doubt release an SDK to help with that. All good fun to speculate about. I just 'know' we are not that far away from some pretty Star Trek type stuff
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #59 of 135
10/1/10 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

I'm very much in agreement. Despite how loudly some Mac fans can whine, this year's iOS news and developments have been far more interesting and successful than a preview of 10.7 would have been.

Also, it goes without saying that the longer 10.7 takes to come out, the better it will be. 10.6 is really good, as is, and aside from dozens of house cleaning items I could list, there isn't anything major that I'm waiting for to be part of Mac OS.

iOS has become really exciting with 4.2, and the possibilities just keep getting more and more endless.

In fact, I firmly believe that developers still haven't fully taken advantage of iOS 3.0's feature/API list, let alone iOS 4.

What a few people here don't seem to understand is that the advantage to Apple of having ONE OS across the board is so enormous that it simply has to be done.

It CAN be done because it already IS one OS under the hood. That's already a major advantage that no one else has. Apple also has major advantages in virtualizing their OS's across other processors. With ARMs becoming much more powerful in the next year, they will be able to run major programs. Still, Intel's chips will be more powerful yet, allowing ARM based programs to run very well.

Apple already has so many advantages, that they would be foolish to not take advantage of them and bring them together. to have one team working on the OS rather than iOS teams and OS X teams would solve personnel problems they're having even now.

I don't understand why this isn't obvious to some people. It's like they're reliving 1984.
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post #60 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

You may well have hit the nail on the head there. It maybe a large iPad indeed and nothing to do with iMac and OS X changes (sadly). However, with all that extra space why not use a more powerful processor and then if that is there why not have OS X too? Tantalizing thoughts ....

I'm not so sure that Apple can present all of this at once. Look at how long it's taking just to get resolution independence. So it's certainly possible that the first product(s) will not be a combined device.

How long will it take for Apple to get a usable, and friendly touch interface into OS X? That's the question. If it's just a better iOS emulator for everyone, that's one thing, but wider changes could take longer. Getting the basics right the first time will go a long way towards making it successful. Get it wrong in the beginning, and it may fail.
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post #61 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

When your best input on an article is Great, Fingerprints on the Glossy Macs now Too,

Its hardly surprising that you'd be on one or many ignore lists.

The great thing about forums is that there are plenty of people to talk to, discuss, etc. When one person appears to detract from the forum experience, its best to ignore them.

And each individual person has their own level of knowledge and expertise. Some people's comments are good as hearing them from an Apple engineer, in terms of accuracy.

And some people are actually 12 or 13 years old. Their opinions, are, well, that of 12 or 13 year olds.

I see. Let me ask you something. When you're sitting in front of your nice pretty 27 inch iMac or external monitor and straining to see your content behind a 27 inch reflection of your face, do you really want to be staring at greasy smudges from your fingertips? That was the point of my original post.

Maybe this forum would be better if the members here tried responding to my posts instead of acting like a 12 or 13 year olds and attacking me.

I've got a news flash for everyone who put me on your ignore list: You don't know everything. You don't know anything except what you read from rumor sites and blogs. It's entirely possible for you to be wrong.
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post #62 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post

I remember the desk in TRON. Virtual keyboard, touch UI. We still haven't reached that vision.

IMHO, a drafting table-like display would be very interesting. For a long time we had big CRT monitors sitting on flat desks. Now that displays have gone flat, it's time to start seriously experimenting with different desk layouts/configurations. I'd like to try my monitors at 30°-60° but most stands don't bend over that far and/or won't let you lower the display to the desk surface.

As some have pointed out, some apps lend themselves to touch manipulation (Photo organizing), some don't (Word processing). The keyboard & pointing device (mouse, trackpad, trackball) works because it minimizes arm movement - it's fast & easy. But PCs have taken root in mobile environments where the fixed desk is not a given and touching the screen is a lot easier (the couch, on a plane).

I really don't like the idea of a machine that runs both Mac OS and iOS. It seems like it would create too much confusion. Is that widget touchable? Why can't I pinch-zoom this? I just foresee a horrible mishmash of UI conventions (not that Apple's been particularly consistent in the UI realm lately). If I want a Mac, I don't want to pay for the touch screen that I'll rarely, if ever, use.

OTOH, if the marginal cost between a touch and non-touch display panel is minimal, why not build machines - laptops especially - with touch built in and put a virtual iPad/iPod in there? But Apple would need to seriously rework the Mac OS UI to be fully touch-integrated - something MS never did. And that reworking would probably create mismatches between good desktop (pointer & keyboard) UI and touchable UI. For example, on a desktop UI click targets can (and should) be smaller.

It's definitely an interesting idea, but one whose time has not yet come.

It doesn't have to be either OS X or iOS. It could be a way if having both, letting you use keyboard functions and touch functions. Use whatever you want for the task at hand.

After all, we still have keyboard shortcuts, even though we've had a mouse for decades now.

We could even have a choice depending on the program we're running. Run a touch based program, and the choices are mostly touch based. Run a keyboard based one, and that applies. It could be modal. Touch the screen and a touch based UI takes over, until you click on the keyboard.

I'm just coming up with some very off the cuff ideas. I'm sure with more thought, this can be worked out satisfactorily.

Remember that a counterpoint to your argument was that the mouse and drop down menu system was terribly inefficient. It required you to remove your hand from the keyboard, and was supposed to be very bad. A lot of people who had invested time in character based programs said that it was much better memorizing the 500 to 600 two and three letter key combo's than it was to use a mouse, and GUI's were so much slower anyway.

Some people will always have to be dragged into new worlds.
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post #63 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't agree. The only place new interface design can go is with touch. Voice is out, though it always seems cute. We will see this.

Apple will want to simplify their OS's. Combining them is the obvious way to go, and it's not as difficult as you may think. I can see a number of ways this can be done.

I think I may have given the wrong impression. I absolutely believe IOS and OSX will move towards one another, if not merge, over time. What I don't believe is that the present iMac with OSX will gain touch interface in any other way than through a trackpad. Apple, or someone else, may create a touch screen for imacs for use in certain places, such as retail (doesn't it already exist?) but a larger IOS device would be the far superior solution. I am surprised that there isn't already a stand for the iPad with a POS application.

I believe Apple will bring out a larger touch based device (on a stand) but it will run a version of IOS and not OSX.
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post #64 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

I see. Let me ask you something. When you're sitting in front of your nice pretty 27 inch iMac or external monitor and straining to see your content behind a 27 inch reflection of your face, do you really want to be staring at greasy smudges from your fingertips? That was the point of my original post.

Maybe this forum would be better if the members here tried responding to my posts instead of acting like a 12 or 13 year olds and attacking me.

I've got a news flash for everyone who put me on your ignore list: You don't know everything. You don't know anything except what you read from rumor sites and blogs. It's entirely possible for you to be wrong.

It's ok for you to disagree, just do it in a useful manner, and try to see both sides. That means the good as well as the bad. What tires people out is when a few people come on the boards and almost never have anything good to say. Even the very worst companies have something good, and Apple isn't one of those.
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post #65 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:19am
I love my iPad and iPhone but when I need to get working or really fly around the web even, I hit the iMac. Everything takes longer with a touchscreen, cut, paste and rearrange text in an email. Open up a bunch of browser tabs and do some quick research...then cut/paste to respond to a comment or email. Etc... I won't even get into using a program like inDesign (I get paid for that so time is money!) or Filemaker (development, not just populating fields with a few clicks and keystrokes). What about examining and working with web page source code? A keyboard and magic mouse rule for these tasks. I can't imagine doing them all day on a touch screen. Maybe I lack imagination but I would never even want to be saddled with only ios for these things unless ios turns into a radically different animal than it is now. And maybe it will, but that is certainly not a forgone conclusion.

All that said, I'd buy my iPad again all day every day. And the iPhone? Foggettaboutit! It's awesome. And that ATV...if my iMac was not also my main tv, I'd be all over that. So apple can sell me all kinds of stuff it seems, because it all has it's place. May OS X live long and prosper!
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post #66 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:19am
Ipads has 11 muti touch , I wonder how Many iMac touch has !
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post #67 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:24am
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Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I think I may have given the wrong impression. I absolutely believe IOS and OSX will move towards one another, if not merge, over time. What I don't believe is that the present iMac with OSX will gain touch interface in any other way than through a trackpad. Apple, or someone else, may create a touch screen for imacs for use in certain places, such as retail (doesn't it already exist?) but a larger IOS device would be the far superior solution. I am surprised that there isn't already a stand for the iPad with a POS application.

I believe Apple will bring out a larger touch based device (on a stand) but it will run a version of IOS and not OSX.

I don't think that will happen in the long run is because of the reasons I've stated. There are just too many advantages in combining the two, and no good reason why they can't be.

It's not likely that everything would be done at once, and possibly, it wouldn't be a good idea. Start with the most obvious, and work outwards. But Apple would have to get all the basic moves in place at once, so developers could see what the standards are.

Even on my 27" screen, it would be easier to reach up and drag a window around than to grab the mouse, move the pointer to the spot where it's enabled, and then move it. There are more than a few functions that I would already prefer to do on the screen than on the keyboard or mouse. It's actually faster. If I could move the monitor down, almost flat, there are a lot of functions I would prefer to do with my finger.

And let me say that a lot of what we're reading about a touch based OS using "old fashioned" mouse based GUI's aren't correct.

It's very true that OS X would work terribly on a 10" screen because the elements would be far too small. but with a little modification of their sizes, it would work just fine on a 21.5 or larger screen.

I find that even with the much higher rez on the 27", screen elements are almost as large as they are on my iPad now, and with some resizing on Apple's part, could be just as large. That alone would solve a lot of problems.
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post #68 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:31am
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Originally Posted by 2 cents View Post

I love my iPad and iPhone but when I need to get working or really fly around the web even, I hit the iMac. Everything takes longer with a touchscreen, cut, paste and rearrange text in an email. Open up a bunch of browser tabs and do some quick research...then cut/paste to respond to a comment or email. Etc... I won't even get into using a program like inDesign (I get paid for that so time is money!) or Filemaker (development, not just populating fields with a few clicks and keystrokes). What about examining and working with web page source code? A keyboard and magic mouse rule for these tasks. I can't imagine doing them all day on a touch screen. Maybe I lack imagination but I would never even want to be saddled with only ios for these things unless ios turns into a radically different animal than it is now. And maybe it will, but that is certainly not a forgone conclusion.

All that said, I'd buy my iPad again all day every day. And the iPhone? Foggettaboutit! It's awesome. And that ATV...if my iMac was not also my main tv, I'd be all over that. So apple can sell me all kinds of stuff it seems, because it all has it's place. May OS X live long and prosper!

I've found that the web on the iPad is much more fun than on my MacPro. not that using the desktop isn't better at times. But's that's much more a function of the large screen so I can have Safari open on the left, and Mail open on the right.It's not really a function of touch based vs keyboard based.

And of course, the iPad is in the first generation. We have to give it some time. There are already cases with keyboards for it, if you really need to use one heavily. Logitech has one coming out that even remaps touch functions to the keyboard, so things are getting interesting quickly.

But we really have to give this at least another two years to see where it's going. It's never fair to judge a new technology the first time it's out.
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post #69 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:40am
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Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Even on my 27" screen, it would be easier to reach up and drag a window around than to grab the mouse, move the pointer to the spot where it's enabled, and then move it. There are more than a few functions that I would already prefer to do on the screen than on the keyboard or mouse. It's actually faster. If I could move the monitor down, almost flat, there are a lot of functions I would prefer to do with my finger.

I don't know what you do for a living but I can't think of anything worse. The track pad is pretty good at allowing some kind of touch interface but to reach out across the desk and touch the screen all day... never. Can you imagine anybody working on a spreadsheet doing that? Or a desktop publishing app? I have worked in studios with touch interface audio mixing desks and it works great. But that's a very different environment. I can imagine fully touch keyboards and track pads, I can imagine small touch devices such as iPads and even larger. I can envision them mounted with keyboards and I can even see a 27" imac with a future iteration of IOS. But a touch screen 27" imac is ridiculous - unless it has some other kind of input device as well, of course. As far as laying the screen down - that would be an ergonomical killer, wouldn't it?
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post #70 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:43am
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


What good are patents? PC makers will copy this with an Android - Chrome lash up immediately.

Recent episode of Mad Men showed them faking a spec commercial for a new product just to induce a competing ad agency to expend a lot of money they couldn't afford to produce an actual spec commercial in order to stay in the race.

Would be cool if Apple could lead competitors down a rat hole by faking the development and impending release future product just to screw with them and waste their resources knowing their propensity for copying whatever Apple does.
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post #71 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:44am
The huge separation between the glass front and the display panel won't make for a very accurate touch screen and the sheer weight of the iMac screen + parts makes it impossible to swivel into portrait mode.

The ideal setup would be the lamp iMac:



The screen part is very lightweight and you'd pull it towards you, swivel it any way you want and everything would auto-orient. This could be a specialised iMac with the internals of the Mac Mini in the base + some extra weight and a 22" 16:10 IPS display. It can't be 16:9 as it's too thin to use in portrait.

Think of the above iMac but with a weighted aluminium dome base and a bigger display. It can have a smaller footprint than the Mini as some items can be stacked.

The price of that should match the current entry iMac. It would be slower but more energy efficient and still enough performance for most people.
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post #72 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:46am
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Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

I don't know but now that I am, why don't you keep me off and try listening for a change instead of thinking you are so correct in your beliefs that you don't need to hear another opinion. Unless you work for Apple Inc, you don't know jack anymore than I do pal.

There is a huge difference between considered opinions and knee-jerk negativism. Your record in supplying plenty of the latter and your snarky tone precedes you, pal.
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post #73 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:53am
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Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

I've got a news flash for everyone who put me on your ignore list: You don't know everything. You don't know anything except what you read from rumor sites and blogs. It's entirely possible for you to be wrong.

I've got a news flash for you. It's not worthy counter opinions people are rejecting, it's only yours. Ponder the possibilities of why.
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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post #74 of 135
10/1/10 at 9:54am
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Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I don't know what you do for a living but I can't think of anything worse. The track pad is pretty good at allowing some kind of touch interface but to reach out across the desk and touch the screen all day... never. Can you imagine anybody working on a spreadsheet doing that? Or a desktop publishing app? I have worked in studios with touch interface audio mixing desks and it works great. But that's a very different environment. I can imagine fully touch keyboards and track pads, I can imagine small touch devices such as iPads and even larger. I can envision them mounted with keyboards and I can even see a 27" imac with a future iteration of IOS. But a touch screen 27" imac is ridiculous - unless it has some other kind of input device as well, of course. As far as laying the screen down - that would be an ergonomical killer, wouldn't it?

You're looking at all the worst things to think about. I'm not saying that this would be good all the time. In my line of work, i used the CS suite, CAD and bunches of other programs.

I used Wacom tablets for much of this, and gee, that IS a tablet! I have the 12" Cintiq, and guess what, that's used instead of a screen for a lot of work. Since I'm retired, I didn't want to buy, and pay for the full sized model, but, guess what? If Apple realizes this with their touch OS, then Wacom is going to be selling a LOT less tablets.

laying the screen down would be bad? Where do you get that idea? It's nonsense. do you have an iPad? If so, do you type on it? Would you want to do so on a vertical screen, or one that's at a slight angle to the horizontal?

Your statement is shortsighted. It's a lack of foresight. You probably, assuming you're old enough, hated the idea of a mouse as well.
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post #75 of 135
10/1/10 at 10:02am
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Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's not likely that everything would be done at once, and possibly, it wouldn't be a good idea. Start with the most obvious, and work outwards. But Apple would have to get all the basic moves in place at once, so developers could see what the standards are.

This is an area where Apple has shown they have patience. When the iPod came out, people whined that it was way under-featured. Yet now it dominates the digital music scene and has grown into iOS and has changed the cell phone industry.

Quote:
Even on my 27" screen, it would be easier to reach up and drag a window around than to grab the mouse, move the pointer to the spot where it's enabled, and then move it. There are more than a few functions that I would already prefer to do on the screen than on the keyboard or mouse. It's actually faster. If I could move the monitor down, almost flat, there are a lot of functions I would prefer to do with my finger.

Exactly. "Average" or "common" desktop screen-sizes have gone from 15" CRTs to 19" LCDs to 27" LCDs, and even multiple 20+" displays. With that increase in size comes a change in the effective ways to manipulate the UI. And laptops are already in your lap so the effort to touch the screen is small.

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I find that even with the much higher rez on the 27", screen elements are almost as large as they are on my iPad now, and with some resizing on Apple's part, could be just as large. That alone would solve a lot of problems.

Oh, resolution independence, when will you arrive? When can we stop defining UI elements in terms of pixels and start using inches, or millimeters, or angstroms?

- Jasen.
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post #76 of 135
10/1/10 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You're looking at all the worst things to think about. I'm not saying that this would be good all the time. In my line of work, i used the CS suite, CAD and bunches of other programs.

I used Wacom tablets for much of this, and gee, that IS a tablet! I have the 12" Cintiq, and guess what, that's used instead of a screen for a lot of work. Since I'm retired, I didn't want to buy, and pay for the full sized model, but, guess what? If Apple realizes this with their touch OS, then Wacom is going to be selling a LOT less tablets.

laying the screen down would be bad? Where do you get that idea? It's nonsense. do you have an iPad? If so, do you type on it? Would you want to do so on a vertical screen, or one that's at a slight angle to the horizontal?

The iPad is different because one tends to use it as a mobile device (move around al ot while using it). Few people sit 8 hours at a stretch in front of an iPad. And yes, I have one. From an ergonomical standpoint a laptop is not a great tool for spending all day looking at, hence all the various devices and solutions for raising the screen to eye level. I imagine the same thing would happen to a horizontally angled iMac. The other issue with laying a screen flat is the reflections from ceiling lights. Neither of these points would necessarily be a deal breaker if the imac could also be used with another input device - which I think you are implying will / would happen.

Quote:
Your statement is shortsighted. It's a lack of foresight.

Really? Both? As a matter of fact from the moment I saw the iPad I have been a firm believer in the future of IOS and the widespread adoption of the iPad and have argued the case here since day one. I'm not sure why you are so grumpy.
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You probably, assuming you're old enough, hated the idea of a mouse as well.

You're funny. But no, I always had a mouse.
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post #77 of 135
10/1/10 at 10:22am
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I see virtual slide guitars and synth keyboards ... mmmmm

We should not forget Ballmer already has one, ok it is a converted pool table, weighs two tons and requires several cameras and costs a zillion dollars but ... they were first! Ballmer has one in his back room for parties i hear. You can make water ripple and move virtual pieces of paper and a few pictures around.

Good for you. That's one in a million who would.
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post #78 of 135
10/1/10 at 10:23am
Large format touch screens have become well established on TV in the last couple of years. They have become common for weather maps, election coverage, etc. Although it makes me smile at how much trouble they can be. Their on-camera users often have to touch more than once to activate, and sometimes they behave unpredictably, and the user abandons his/her intention and moves on.

Despite (or perhaps because of) this we may be seeing the advent of a new class of computer/display. Touch input may be the best solution for the very extremes of devices: the very large and the small. Touch input is superior for small portable devices where the keyboard, mouse, touchpad paradigm just adds size and weight. This has been amply demonstrated in the success of the iPhone and iPod Touch, all the way up to tablet size as in the iPad. It has also been a success in whiteboard-scale devices such as the demo screen used on camera or in a conference.

Where the keyboard/mouse/touchpad continue to be superior is on desktop scale devices. Where the hand at the end of a relaxed arm can enter tons of input easily and effortlessly--and device size and weight are not an issue. Laptops are a hybrid between desktop and portability.

Bottom line: I cannot see how a touchscreen desktop will ever replace the fully matured standard we have now. For draftsmen and designers, a tabletop screen, yes. For general use standard screen size, no.

The battleground will be in the laptop/tablet arena where portability versus ease of use leaves no clear winner at present. Either touch screen pads and laptop/netbooks will continue to coexist and overlap with pads in usage, or some development in input technology will make button pushing or screen swiping/tapping either better or irrelevant.

Just my inexpert opinion.
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post #79 of 135
10/1/10 at 10:24am
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Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I don't know what you do for a living but I can't think of anything worse. The track pad is pretty good at allowing some kind of touch interface but to reach out across the desk and touch the screen all day... never. Can you imagine anybody working on a spreadsheet doing that? Or a desktop publishing app?

For many, many years drafters, engineers, scribes and other sorts of people worked with raised, slanted work surfaces. Imagine that whole desktop being the display, with a mouse & keyboard tray or even a keyboard & trackpad combination that could roam around the surface.
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I have worked in studios with touch interface audio mixing desks and it works great. But that's a very different environment.

Is it? You have multiple control elements spread across an area. Think of the "inspector" windows that have become popular. What if you could touch a palette to make a tool active while leaving the cursor in the workspace? With my multiple monitor setup, I often find it annoying to move the pointer ALL THE WAY OVER THERE to click a UI element and then move ALLLL the way back to where I was working. Learning keyboard shortcuts eliminates this, but being able to reach out and tap the screen would help, too.
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I can imagine fully touch keyboards and track pads, I can imagine small touch devices such as iPads and even larger. I can envision them mounted with keyboards and I can even see a 27" imac with a future iteration of IOS. But a touch screen 27" imac is ridiculous - unless it has some other kind of input device as well, of course. As far as laying the screen down - that would be an ergonomical killer, wouldn't it?

See drafting table comment above. IMHO, we moved to the current desk configuration because of typewriters and later CRT monitors. I'm not saying a tilted work area is appropriate everywhere, but it could be far more widely used than it currently is.

- Jasen.
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post #80 of 135
10/1/10 at 10:39am
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Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Bottom line: I cannot see how a touchscreen desktop will ever replace the fully matured standard we have now. For draftsmen and designers, a tabletop screen, yes. For general use standard screen size, no.

I think manufacturing costs will dictate this. If the marginal cost of putting a touch sensitive layer, coating, whatever is low enough, manufacturers will only make touch sensitive displays. I think we're seeing this with the 3D nonsense. Refresh rates have gotten so high that modern displays can show pictures faster than the human eye can sense. Solution? Render a separate image for each eye!

All the touch screen phones (and coming tablets) are lowering the cost of adding touch to displays. Soon it will be practical to put touch on "full size" displays. When that happens, it won't matter whether you want or need it, it'll be a feature check item that everyone will have.

- Jasen.
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