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Apple rumored to be testing touchscreen panels for new iMac - Page 3

post #81 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post

For many, many years drafters, engineers, scribes and other sorts of people worked with raised, slanted work surfaces. Imagine that whole desktop being the display, with a mouse & keyboard tray or even a keyboard & trackpad combination that could roam around the surface.

Yes, that is very much the kind of thing I was talking about re the studio set-up. Why it is such a different environment, like the ones you describe above, is that they are very 'physical' by nature, for lack of a better word. Certainly in a movie sound studio there is a lot of 'moving about'. As far as the drafting tables go - yes sure but that's pretty niche in the grand scheme of things.

For these kind of professional environments I certainly can see the use for large touch screens as well as large screens with large (larger than the touch pad) touch input devices that are dedicate through software. Imagine a double length iPad lying on the table in front of you. But again - very niche.
Quote:
IMHO, we moved to the current desk configuration because of typewriters and later CRT monitors. I'm not saying a tilted work area is appropriate everywhere, but it could be far more widely used than it currently is.

Certainly don't dispute that. The great thing about touch screen input, whether through the monitor itself or as a peripheral, is that it is software driven. Anybody who works with Avid (or similar) editing, know that the keyboard is not the greatest controller. I can see all sorts of uses in industry, stores, warehousing as well. But for the vast majority of people I think that reaching out and touching your 27" screen across the table, or spread out across the desk would be a major pain (eventually becoming physical reaching the neck and shoulders)
post #82 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) How did Blackintosh get off my ignore list.


I ask the same then I see I forgot to log in. DOH!
post #83 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post


I ask the same then I see I forgot to log in. DOH!

Log on your mind! Listen to ME!
post #84 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

Great idea. A 27 inch glossy screen full of fingerprints is going to look terrific.

And you have thay problem with your iPad, and thus giving it away? Correct.

I am sure, you have faith that the non-Apple tablets that you praised (???) will find a solution to finger smudge?

CGC
post #85 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

The iPad is different because one tends to use it as a mobile device (move around al ot while using it). Few people sit 8 hours at a stretch in front of an iPad. And yes, I have one. From an ergonomical standpoint a laptop is not a great tool for spending all day looking at, hence all the various devices and solutions for raising the screen to eye level. I imagine the same thing would happen to a horizontally angled iMac. The other issue with laying a screen flat is the reflections from ceiling lights. Neither of these points would necessarily be a deal breaker if the imac could also be used with another input device - which I think you are implying will / would happen.


Really? Both? As a matter of fact from the moment I saw the iPad I have been a firm believer in the future of IOS and the widespread adoption of the iPad and have argued the case here since day one. I'm not sure why you are so grumpy.

You're funny. But no, I always had a mouse.

I'm grumpy because I've heard all of these arguments numerous times before, and always, those making the arguments have been proven wrong. I would think that by now, people would stop being so pessimistic about new elements, and at least think that they might succeed.

So yes, I firmly believe that this will work on regular computers as well. It's not the fact of touch, but the implementation of it that will determine whether it will succeed on a big desk bound machine. I haven't read a single argument that changes that for me.
post #86 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Wouldn't a simple, elegantly designed mechanical lock on one side solve this though? Slide the screen to desired position and press or rotate lock. Press to release.

Your suggestion plus the use of materials that are less prone to wear and tear can do the job (perhaps LiquidMetal???), if this is the direction that Apple will take the Mac.

As to the initial concern, if Apple engineers have looked at, or have familiarity with precision devices in research sciences and biomedicine, they include devices that could move in three dimensions. They even have those in operating rooms. And, they last for ages,, not just a few years.

Three-dimensional motions are also common in heavy duty industries -- in construction, moving of goods in shipyard docks, etc.

They just have to ask the correct questions: How did others do it?

If Apple can make the iMac or similar devices even lighter, the issue would be moot.

CGC
post #87 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Certainly don't dispute that. The great thing about touch screen input, whether through the monitor itself or as a peripheral, is that it is software driven. Anybody who works with Avid (or similar) editing, know that the keyboard is not the greatest controller. I can see all sorts of uses in industry, stores, warehousing as well. But for the vast majority of people I think that reaching out and touching your 27" screen across the table, or spread out across the desk would be a major pain (eventually becoming physical reaching the neck and shoulders)

We're not talking about a MS table here, just a monitor. And it doesn't have to only use touch. no reason why a keyboard can't be used as well. Apple understands this, which is why they even sell a dock with one.

Having different ways to interact is the best way to go. we all use things differently, and we all learn differently. some people might prefer the touch features, and others they keyboard/mouse method.

I see developers writing one program that will run across all iterations of hardware. On a full power hi rez machine, all features will become available. On an iPad, less will be there, and on an iPhone, it will be even less. but it will still be the same program. This will be a big advantage for developers. People will become used to using touch. I would love to have FCS use touch right now. There are a number of areas in which it would be very useful. But that doesn't mean that every feature would need it.

And don't forget that a stylus does work on Apple's touch devices for more flexibility.
post #88 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've found that the web on the iPad is much more fun than on my MacPro. not that using the desktop isn't better at times. But's that's much more a function of the large screen so I can have Safari open on the left, and Mail open on the right.It's not really a function of touch based vs keyboard based.

And of course, the iPad is in the first generation. We have to give it some time. There are already cases with keyboards for it, if you really need to use one heavily. Logitech has one coming out that even remaps touch functions to the keyboard, so things are getting interesting quickly.

But we really have to give this at least another two years to see where it's going. It's never fair to judge a new technology the first time it's out.

I don't disagree with what you write. In fact, for general web stuff, I much prefer the iPad to the iMac. It's only when I need to get "stuff done" that I wish I were on the iMac instead. Adding a keyboard would not change my opinion. It has more to do with speed of movement, access to multiple windows, fast scrolling, more dexterity (for me) with the magic mouse. When I get to robust OS X apps like inDesign, it's hard to even imagine them on a touchscreen. But I also agree with you that the technology is new and we need to see how it evolves. Anywyay, like I wrote, I'd buy the iPad all over again. So I am a fan for sure.
post #89 of 135
It boggles the mind how Americans can be so egocentric in their view of the world and technology.

One innovation that Apple was able to integrate successfully with the "touchscreen" innovation is the digital keyboard. This was one of the most criticized features when the first iPhone was introduced -- a criticism made infamous by the mocking smile and smirk of Ballmer -- "No keyboard?".

In fact, the digital keyboard may have revolutionized computing for the rest of the world and even in the United States.

Many Americans so focused on the alphabet and numeric system forget that more people in the world, do not use those alphanumeric characters -- China, India, Japan, Arab states, even many European countries. Science and technology, and thus also biomedicine also use many characters and scitech symbols and notations that would not be done easily with the alphanumeric characters of the English language.

The digital keyboard have made all the above possible, acceassible and easily interchangeable at the touch of a screen icon, in the iPhone, that were soon standard in all the iterations of the Apple iOS operating system.

If you couple the digital keyboard, with the growing precision of "language translators" -- you can literally have access to all and may have some understanding to all the archives of information in the world, and in any language.

If Apple can integrate all the above iOS features in their other non-iOS devices, e.g., the iMac, notebooks, desktops, etc., Apple will have done a more enduring service to the advancement of technology, business and industry; and thus to mankind -- well beyond the focus of gadget consumerism.

Considering what I do, the direction that Apple has started with the iPad is promising. The "touchsceen" navigation is ideal for many actions, the keyboard (when needed) is also just as vital. In fact, if they could also re-integrate precision pointing (possible with the mouse), that would be ideal.

And yeah, more wireless interconnectivity -- not those plug in technologies, like USB, and all those odd sizes and shapes to connect devices. Apple, if they move to more wireless interconnectivity though must rethink the use of those batteries. Spent batteries are not good for the environment. as well as the cost of replacement could be significant during the lifetime of the system.

All the above may require a closer look of the features of the Mac OSX and the iOS, so that they would work in more powerful machines, or even in future iPads and mobile devices.

CGC
post #90 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 cents View Post

I don't disagree with what you write. In fact, for general web stuff, I much prefer the iPad to the iMac. It's only when I need to get "stuff done" that I wish I were on the iMac instead. Adding a keyboard would not change my opinion. It has more to do with speed of movement, access to multiple windows, fast scrolling, more dexterity (for me) with the magic mouse. When I get to robust OS X apps like inDesign, it's hard to even imagine them on a touchscreen. But I also agree with you that the technology is new and we need to see how it evolves. Anywyay, like I wrote, I'd buy the iPad all over again. So I am a fan for sure.

But nothing you mentioned is a factor of the iPad being touch. Most of it is screen size, and speed of the processors. I find touch to be much faster at a lot of things.

Would I want to run inDesign on a touch device? Well, if I could move graphic elements around that way, it could be easier. Lord knows, I've used a mouse with it since it first came out, and it's not the most precise thing to use. A keyboard would be required, and would be part of what I'm talking about anyway. Remember, I doubt Apple would make this one or the other, but a blending. Some things work better with keyboard and mouse, and some with touch. We should be able to choose.

Even a thing as the "Submit Reply" and the "Preview Post" buttons here would be easier to use touch on. We have to lift our hand from the keyboard anyway. It's actually faster to reach out with a finger than to grab the mouse, begin to move it towards the button, and then to click when we get it there.
post #91 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202 View Post

It boggles the mind how Americans can be so egocentric in their view of the world and technology.

One innovation that Apple was able to integrate successfully with the "touchscreen" innovation is the digital keyboard. This was one of the most criticized features when the first iPhone was introduced -- a criticism made infamous by the mocking smile and smirk of Ballmer -- "No keyboard?".

In fact, the digital keyboard may have revolutionized computing to the rest of the world and even in the United States.

Many Americans so focused on the alphabet and numeric system forget that more people in the world, do not use those alphanumeric characters -- China, India, Japan, Arab states, even many European countries. Science and technology, and thus also biomedicine also use many characters and scitech symbols and notations that would not be done easily with the alphanumeric characters of the English language.

The digital keyboard have made all the above possible, acceassible and easily interchangeable at the touch of a screen icon, in the iPhone, that were soon standard in all the iterations of the Apple iOS operating system.

If you couple the digital keyboard, with the growing precision of "language translators" -- you can literally have access to all and may have some understanding to all the archives of information in the world, and in any language.

If Apple can integrate all the above iOS features in their other non-iOS devices, e.g., the iMac, notebooks, desktops, etc., Apple will have done a more enduring service to the advancement of technology, business and industry; and thus to mankind -- well beyond the focus of gadget consumerism.

Considering what I do, the direction that they have started with the iPad is promising. The "touchsceen" navigation is ideal for many actions, the keyboard (when needed) is also just as vital. In fact, if they could also re-integrate precision pointing (possible with the mouse), that would be ideal.

All the above may require a closer look of the features of the Mac OSX and the iOS, so that they would work in more powerful machines, or even in future iPads and mobile devices.

CGC

I agree completely. That's why both will be used. It's awfully easy to call up a keyboard in any language of method of entry with a digital keyboard. Even the number of keys can vary, or with a touch, change to others.

I'm convinced this is the future.
post #92 of 135
I totally saw this coming!

How could they not go touchscreen after going to market with first the iPhone then iPad? The only issue I see is that there are simply going to be certain tasks that will still require a keyboard, so I don't see this as being all or nothing but both.

If anyone out there is considering a laptop, I'd hold off. It's going to likely be touchscreen as well. Picture it... On the surface it appears to be your typical Apple Lap, but whoa, the screen detaches and can be used in more mobile environments (perhaps in front of the fire at your favorite local cafe?).

But when serious typing needs to get done, you dock it back on the main body and have your traditional laptop setup.

Trust me it's coming.. People want power and mobility and this sort of design is in keeping with that need. Simplicity, Power & Freedom!

Ramin
Chicago, IL
www.monkpak.com
post #93 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But nothing you mentioned is a factor of the iPad being touch. Most of it is screen size, and speed of the processors. I find touch to be much faster at a lot of things.

Would I want to run inDesign on a touch device? Well, if I could move graphic elements around that way, it could be easier. Lord knows, I've used a mouse with it since it first came out, and it's not the most precise thing to use. A keyboard would be required, and would be part of what I'm talking about anyway. Remember, I doubt Apple would make this one or the other, but a blending. Some things work better with keyboard and mouse, and some with touch. We should be able to choose.

Even a thing as the "Submit Reply" and the "Preview Post" buttons here would be easier to use touch on. We have to lift our hand from the keyboard anyway. It's actually faster to reach out with a finger than to grab the mouse, begin to move it towards the button, and then to click when we get it there.

Well, I can't agree with you there. Touchscreen is not as fast and efficient for me...at least not as it is currently implemented.. For example, a simple thing like shift or command click to select is very powerful and fast and I find it easy to do without looking away from the screen--the same way I don't have to look away from the road to operate the clutch, brake, and gas pedals (or shifter) when I drive. Maybe it's just that I'm used to working this way. I dunno. I will concede that as technology progresses, I may change my mind and come around to your way of thinking.

Peace.
post #94 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You're a terrible person to talk to about this…

I have no doubt that if Apple releases a Mac with a touch display will be designed for a specific purpose with the HW and SW to go with it (as I’ve previously stated), but I can’t see in what way a Mac with a vertical display would be as useful as one with a near-horizontal display or one that requires constant physical maneuvering to use as a touch display (as I’ve also previously stated).

I’ve asked for ways 1) a vertical display would make sense for consumers for prolonged use, and 2) how effective it would be to move a display monitor constantly to switch between modes.I don’t recall reading anything that details how this could advantage the consumer and Apple, or examples of apps or tasks that would benefit from this. I, however, did give examples how adding a touch-based UI to Macs would be useful, but because mine was with the touchpad already at ones fingertips, not the entire display you’re deeming me negative, terrible and an “old fogerty”? It sounds like you are trying to bait me.

Quote:
But you just have to let yourself go. don't just buy the apps you think you NEED. Buy ones that look interesting. They're cheap enough. I'm happy you're going to finally get one. Think positively.

I do buy apps that are interesting. Why would you think differently? My favorite app for the iPad (and one I frankly miss) from when I last owned one is a game. What I don’t do is buy HW products I don’t feel I need or don’t keep HW products I no longer need. Thus, my previous returning of the iPad.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #95 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacApfel View Post

On another forum I saw someone suggesting that in vertical mode you have OS X and in horizontal mode iOS - nice idea!

Apple seems not only to be eager to revolutionise the phone or for the first time successfully introduce a new device category - they want to revolutionise our entire digital life. I can't really see that a desktop computer can really benefit from a touch sensitive screen. I would rather prefer a keyboard that gets a large additional touch sensitive pad. There have been numerous studies on the net that I really liked. But let's see.

Have you ever used a light table, made a collage of photos, rotoscoped/masked/tracked an object in a video, used a synthesizer with multiple slide switches, used a telestrator, a piano, dulcimer, guitar...

Have you done any CAD design, drafting, paintings, drawings, flowcharts, story boards, white-board brain storming, sand drawings, landscape layout, interior design, calligraphy, written any music, done video editing where you maneuver cameras through 3D space...

There are so many possibilities...

Not everything can be done better with a touch screen (than with a mouse/kb)-- but there are plenty of things that can be done better with direct touch.

I suspect that OS X and iOS will converge at some point-- I don't believe the tilt of the display should (necessarily) be the determinate to switch OSes.

.
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post #96 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

We have. The new part is the rumour about the touchscreens, not the patent.



I’m not so sure about this tech. I don’t think Apple is like others and will introduce any expensive touchscreen display that adds more complexity without a solid reason for usability and without having an OS rewrite that takes advantage of this HW feature.

That makes me this is something more inclined for new Macs after 10.7 gets demoed to us with some new touchscreen features that are coming right from iOS. Note: I’m aware that any OS can be used with a touchscreen but having a UI that designed for fingers is different than one designed for a mouse pointer.

You're probably correct. I expect we'll se a gradual migration of iOS elements and presentation formats to OS X -- things like bigger controls, more-focused windows (less busy, less detail-distraction), better content reflow/resizing,detail pointing, better hovering/mouseovers (iOS needs work in these areas).

Someday, sooner, rather than later, you'll be able to "BackToMy Mac" from an iPad-like device, and there will be little difference in the way the desktop looks or is manipulated.

An interesting experiment or proof-of-concept would be to port the iTunes app to the iPad -- and then back to the Mac.

.
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post #97 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Wouldn't a simple, elegantly designed mechanical lock on one side solve this though? Slide the screen to desired position and press or rotate lock. Press to release.

I like the idea of a handcrank with great levers, gears and cables binding everything together!

.
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post #98 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

It's a natural evolution of Apple, iMacs and a big-ass screen. You want to reach out and touch it. Sure, it's gimmicky, but imagine them touch visual interfaces and apps Apple and others will come out with. It'll sell, if only for the novelty factor, it'll get more people to Macs. You gotta have at least one touchscreen model. But Apple will do the UI right and everyone else will be like... Damnnnn

If they could keep the price point as it is and have a 21" touchscreen model, that would be cool.

There's a fortune to be made in after-market screen wipes... now, if they could only do something for TecHemorrhoids!

.
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post #99 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Id much rather have the glass multitouch trackpad visually output as needed. Certain types of apps would be greatly benefited by this, like the calculator. As it stands now I often will just grab my iPhone because typing on the touch screen is better than using a mouse or keyboard for inputting on a desktop OS calculator.

Yes... maybe We are the hybrids!

.
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post #100 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

Great idea. A 27 inch glossy screen full of fingerprints is going to look terrific.

What makes you think that all of those are fingerprints...

Think of it as a big, touch-sensitive, Xerox machine!

It could be a new category the first real, Big-Ass Tush display!
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post #101 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Maybe not. I've designed hinges that maintain their "feel". It's not that hard to do.

Kind of a Zener-spring, Eh! What do you use torsion bars?

.
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post #102 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm not so concerned about it. My iPad does get plenty of smudges, but you really can't see them while the screen is on. That surprised me.

The advantages of properly adding touch would so outweigh any small problems with smudges that it would be worth it.

As far as the hinge thing goes. I've got a design with curved rails that the computer would slide up and down on. Pull it towards you and it would slide down almost horizontally. Push it back, and it would slide upwards in a vertical position. It could be used anywhere between. counterbalancing would ensure it would move easily, and stay put. If really necessary, the curved rails could be mounted on a platform that would be swiveled up and down for further adjustment, and could be locked into place if required.

I like the sound of that!

Or, even mounted on a wall, say at a height that when deployed horizontally was stand-up (or sit-down) desk height...

Hmm.. the Escritoire of the 21st century!

.
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post #103 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I sometimes find myself reaching for my screen to touch something, and then belatedly remember I'm using my Mac Pro rather than my iPad.

Yeah! Then, embarrassed, blushing, you look around to see if anyone saw you do it!

.
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post #104 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I see virtual slide guitars and synth keyboards ... mmmmm

Can you envision a 27" BeBot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFG7-Q0WI7Q

.
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post #105 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Well I have had ATV since day one, we love it and use it almost daily and it has been a huge success for us. It is literally our entertainment hub for music at parties (saves all the equipment in the great room, just need amp and speakers). It is how we watch HD movies now (instead of going out to the movies in these hard times). Plus how we view all our pictures and home made movies.

We even take it on our annual vacation along with an AE as we use it to view pics and our own movies taken that day. Plus I take a TB drive with tons of movies on with us in case of rain or internet is lousy as is often the case. Now I added Boxee it takes on even more uses albeit it can't drive Boxee on a 62 inch HD TV sadly but it can on smaller screens.

What's not to love?

This year, at the grandkids soccer team parties (at the local pizza parlors) I plan to take my hockey puck Apple TV and an HDMI cable and stream home movies of game highlights from my iPad to the HDTV in the party room...

Something like:

Dish provides some tips for playing the critical position of Soccer Goalkeeper, and demonstrates "How it's done"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOtZ0fSfQPo

and:

Braden does some fancy footwork to get around two deep defenders.
Kyler charges the net, distracting the goalkeeper for a fraction of a second...
Ah, too late... Result: Goal Red Bulls!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzAft7b7z4I

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post #106 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I think a 'touch' anything with OSX is unlikely and I can't see an iMac with IOS and I definitely cannot see dual OS machine. I think it is more likely that a new device (as in the pictures) featuring a larger screen (15"-17" perhaps) and IOS is a possibility. This, to me, would make more sense as an incremental step in ushering IOS in as a new consumer OS. Though I don't have the technical knowledge to figure out if this is plausible I can see an alteration to the OS in order to allow multiple windows to be open side by side (two or more apps at once). This would allow current ipad and iphone apps to run in native resolution without hogging the entire screen.

This makes a lot of sense-- an interim "Touch Mac" as a separate product, to provide a path to the future.

I can see Apple doing that and see how it goes... No one else can afford to do that!

.
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post #107 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

You may well have hit the nail on the head there. It maybe a large iPad indeed and nothing to do with iMac and OS X changes (sadly). However, with all that extra space why not use a more powerful processor and then if that is there why not have OS X too? Tantalizing thoughts ....

It could be...

But Apple needs to find a way to bring multitouch to the desktop... sooner, rather than later.

.
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post #108 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It doesn't have to be either OS X or iOS. It could be a way if having both, letting you use keyboard functions and touch functions. Use whatever you want for the task at hand.

After all, we still have keyboard shortcuts, even though we've had a mouse for decades now.

We could even have a choice depending on the program we're running. Run a touch based program, and the choices are mostly touch based. Run a keyboard based one, and that applies. It could be modal. Touch the screen and a touch based UI takes over, until you click on the keyboard.

I'm just coming up with some very off the cuff ideas. I'm sure with more thought, this can be worked out satisfactorily.

Remember that a counterpoint to your argument was that the mouse and drop down menu system was terribly inefficient. It required you to remove your hand from the keyboard, and was supposed to be very bad. A lot of people who had invested time in character based programs said that it was much better memorizing the 500 to 600 two and three letter key combo's than it was to use a mouse, and GUI's were so much slower anyway.

Some people will always have to be dragged into new worlds.

There's a demo of running OLPC/OTPC eToys squeak on the iPad.

http://croquetweak.blogspot.com/2010...s-on-ipad.html

He has a modal solution to handle hover/mouseovers and does right-clicks by adding a command key to the status bar-- not elegant, but not rocket science either.

Yeah, yeah... it's gonna' happen!

.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #109 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I don't know what you do for a living but I can't think of anything worse. The track pad is pretty good at allowing some kind of touch interface but to reach out across the desk and touch the screen all day... never. Can you imagine anybody working on a spreadsheet doing that? Or a desktop publishing app? I have worked in studios with touch interface audio mixing desks and it works great. But that's a very different environment. I can imagine fully touch keyboards and track pads, I can imagine small touch devices such as iPads and even larger. I can envision them mounted with keyboards and I can even see a 27" imac with a future iteration of IOS. But a touch screen 27" imac is ridiculous - unless it has some other kind of input device as well, of course. As far as laying the screen down - that would be an ergonomical killer, wouldn't it?

Yes, but... you are making assumptions based on what you know and are comfortable with...

For example, many people assume we have to have a "proper" keyboard (because we're used to one).

How can we find the home row on a virtual kb without those little nipples on the keys?

How can we hover over the home row, without pressing a key?

How can we gain speed if we don't have the sensation of pressing a key?

Just consider these points as a possibility:
-- you don't have to hover over the home row- just place your hands/palms on the screen
-- you don't need nipples to find the home row - the home row is wherever you place your hands
-- the virtual kb resizes itself to fit your hands
-- you don't type by pressing down and lifting up- rather by lifting up, touching, then letting the finger, naturally, come to rest on the home row

I would be willing to bet that someone with no typing training (to unlearn) could quickly outperform the best trained typist-- and none of that carpel-tunnel crap!

,
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #110 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Yes, but... you are making assumptions based on what you know and are comfortable with...

For example, many people assume we have to have a "proper" keyboard (because we're used to one).

How can we find the home row on a virtual kb without those little nipples on the keys?

How can we hover over the home row, without pressing a key?

How can we gain speed if we don't have the sensation of pressing a key?

Just consider these points as a possibility:
-- you don't have to hover over the home row- just place your hands/palms on the screen
-- you don't need nipples to find the home row - the home row is wherever you place your hands
-- the virtual kb resizes itself to fit your hands
-- you don't type by pressing down and lifting up- rather by lifting up, touching, then letting the finger, naturally, come to rest on the home row

I would be willing to bet that someone with no typing training (to unlearn) could quickly outperform the best trained typist-- and none of that carpel-tunnel crap!

,

The future will bring virtual keyboards and I'm not counting out any software ideas. I can see how you could 'hover' by a key not being activated before you let go, for sure. I can also see a keyboard that would somehow slide itself as a semi-translucent image covering the bottom part of you monitor. As soon as you touch the keyboard the controls would be visible on the big screen, a little like the keyboard appears on an iPad. But the beauty of virtual keyboards is that they can adapt to each app.
People may prefer physical keyboards for typing - I am not sure if it is a matter of getting used to or if physical keyboards really are better, but I am sure that the keyboard and mouse combo will prove itself inadequate in many professional contexts over time.
post #111 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Yes, but... you are making assumptions based on what you know and are comfortable with...

For example, many people assume we have to have a "proper" keyboard (because we're used to one).

How can we find the home row on a virtual kb without those little nipples on the keys?

How can we hover over the home row, without pressing a key?

How can we gain speed if we don't have the sensation of pressing a key?

Just consider these points as a possibility:
-- you don't have to hover over the home row- just place your hands/palms on the screen
-- you don't need nipples to find the home row - the home row is wherever you place your hands
-- the virtual kb resizes itself to fit your hands
-- you don't type by pressing down and lifting up- rather by lifting up, touching, then letting the finger, naturally, come to rest on the home row

I would be willing to bet that someone with no typing training (to unlearn) could quickly outperform the best trained typist-- and none of that carpel-tunnel crap!

,

"Dick gets it"

I've had the following bookmark in my BM-bar for ages now... before the iPad, when there was only speculation as to what "it" would be.

The following design is only a concept, and a bit before it's time, however... some of the the tech needed is in dev NOW and we'll see within 3 years time I believe, such as foldable OLED screens, etc.

Take a look.... MacBook Touch Beta 20
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #112 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Im aware that any OS can be used with a touchscreen but having a UI that designed for fingers is different than one designed for a mouse pointer.

I wish you hadn't said that. I have happily been using nothing but a track pad to operate my Powerbook Ti and now my Macbook unibody and now all of a sudden you point out to me that the OS was not designed for fingers, so what I have been doing for nigh on a decade is all wrong. \
post #113 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

"Dick gets it"

I've had the following bookmark in my BM-bar for ages now... before the iPad, when there was only speculation as to what "it" would be.

The following design is only a concept, and a bit before it's time, however... some of the the tech needed is in dev NOW and we'll see within 3 years time I believe, such as foldable OLED screens, etc.

Take a look.... MacBook Touch Beta 20

I've been to that site before-- it is beautiful... actually breathtaking in its simple freshness.

Just added it to my BM bar.

.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #114 of 135
.

Something's messing here!

Or, there is something here-- and we are missing it!


I was browsing through the forums, as I often do, early in the morning (in bed with an iPad, and an iMac, available on my nightstand).

A thought came into my mind that I'd better check the schedule for today's soccer games (3 grandkids)

Sure, I have all the schedules and practices entered into my calendar (merged with my daughter's calendar, published on MobileMe. shared among 7 Macs, 5 iPhones and 2 iPads).

Originally, it took several hours to copy the schedule info from the league web site, but once that is done, it is very handy!

I have alarms set for every practice and game-- so alerts get pushed to all our computers and iDevices.

I was using the iPad (with 4.2 beta multitasking) so I double tapped the home button. and brought up the calendar app.

The calendar listed the games and showed that there was some overlap -- I wouldn't be able to be at all the games for their full duration.

When I created the iCal entries I entered the opposing team, location, etc,

Now, I wanted to determine which games to attend based on the potential quality/importance of the contest.

So I:

1) noted the name of the opponent for the first game
2) double-tap, then tap switched back to the browser
3) tap to display the bookmarks
4) scroll tap to select the bookmark for the league home page
5) tapped the "girls" division link which brought up the girls division page
6) tapped the standings link for the appropriate age group which brought up the standings page for my granddaughter's team and their opponent
7) noting that the teams were fairly close in the standings, I decided to look at the schedule to see how' they had each performed against common opponents
8) tapping the back button brought me back to the girls division page
9) tap the link for schedule in the appropriate age group which brought the complete schedule for that age group within the girls division
10) I could scroll through the schedule (including box scores for games already played) gauge the importance of this game based on standings (as I recall from the standings - 2 pages back), and determine that this is a pretty important game -- one I would like to attend.

Whew! That was pretty tedious, wasn't it?

So, let's look at the other games.

You guessed it-- I need to go through the same Texas Two-step for each game.

It's a little easier on a Mac, because I can keep some pages open... but not really that much easier.

So, after 30 steps (3 teams) and say 5-10 minutes, I can decide which games I want to attend and determine my schedule.

That's just for the Saturday games...

I repeat the process to some degree for practices on Mon.Tue,Wed,Thu (Friday and Sunday are usually free). And my Daughter does the same thing.


Why?


Why can't I go to the calendar, select a game and see the current standings, schedule and box scores automatically-- with no extra effort futzing around back-and-forth with the browser.

We can embed music and videos from other sites into browser pages --.why can't we transclude the live, updated, standings and schedule right there in the calendar? *

* there may be calendar programs that can do this-- but that's not really the point.


Why am I doing it this way?


For me, the answer is:

That's the way I am used to doing it (and it is so much improved over how we did it before the web and computers).

But is it, really that much better-- I am still shuffling pages (albeit electronic ones) to get the information I need.

Sure, the information is at my fingertips-- but it takes a lot of time and finger taps/swipes (or keystrokes and mouse movement/clicks) to get what should already be there.

The Mac, iPad, web, Calendar app, Browser app are my minions -- I just haven't trained them very well to do my bidding


In this thread, we have been discussing whether a touch interface or a mouse/kb interface is better-- I'll call it battle of the Touch vs the Platonic UI.

Which is best for my task?

Is it Touch?

Is it Platonic?

... or is it neither?


Maybe there are more important changes afoot than just the UI.


Well, I have an early soccer game to attend, so I'm gonna hit the shower...

.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #115 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I don't know what you do for a living but I can't think of anything worse. The track pad is pretty good at allowing some kind of touch interface but to reach out across the desk and touch the screen all day... never. Can you imagine anybody working on a spreadsheet doing that? Or a desktop publishing app? I have worked in studios with touch interface audio mixing desks and it works great. But that's a very different environment. I can imagine fully touch keyboards and track pads, I can imagine small touch devices such as iPads and even larger. I can envision them mounted with keyboards and I can even see a 27" imac with a future iteration of IOS. But a touch screen 27" imac is ridiculous - unless it has some other kind of input device as well, of course. As far as laying the screen down - that would be an ergonomical killer, wouldn't it?

What I get from your points is that Touch is great for somethings and not so much for others..

I agree!

But, I do think that within the next 5 years, every Apple display will be touch enabled! They need touch displays for many things and economies of scale should make it less expensive to go "all touch".

That's not to say that the keyboard and mouse (or touch pad or even graphic tablets) are going away.

What it does mean is that any Computer/Display or iDevice you buy from Apple, will be usable with touch! Other UI devices will be sold as accessories-- commonly used accessories.

You can buy a Mouse or a KB for $70, so it;s not a big ticket decision -- most would just buy them.

The other part of this 5-year evolution is to change the OS and the apps to be "Touchable". The OS can do a lot to help, but the apps need to be rethought,

Like you, if I am doing WP or SS, I wiil probably use the mouse/kb over Touch.

But, it sure would be productive if I could tilt down the display to manipulate photos, or draw/paint something.


I gotta' hit the shower... but Ia' want to say that this is one of the best discussions-- well reasoned, thought-provoking, and very little FUD and name-calling...

BTW, Sol isn't anti-touch... He's just going through the process of thinking it through-- attempting to justify each inncremental step. I think he understands what's coming and is fully on board with it... I'd call him a New Fogey!

... and that ain't a bad thing to be!

.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #116 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

I wish you hadn't said that. I have happily been using nothing but a track pad to operate my Powerbook Ti and now my Macbook unibody and now all of a sudden you point out to me that the OS was not designed for fingers, so what I have been doing for nigh on a decade is all wrong. \

I dont know if your post is a joke or not.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #117 of 135
Personally I do not like touch screen because you see smudges and fingerprints on the screen which I hate.The new i macs are good the way they are now. Leave it alone.The mouse is a good design and a easy feature to use with the new i macs.
post #118 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Id much rather have the glass multitouch trackpad visually output as needed. Certain types of apps would be greatly benefited by this, like the calculator. As it stands now I often will just grab my iPhone because typing on the touch screen is better than using a mouse or keyboard for inputting on a desktop OS calculator.

I move my hand over the numeric keypad portion of my keyboard. It's better than having to grab a second device just to use a calculator.

I agree that having a large display capable trackpad would be an interesting addition.
post #119 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

I move my hand over the numeric keypad portion of my keyboard. It's better than having to grab a second device just to use a calculator.

I agree that having a large display capable trackpad would be an interesting addition.

Ive been using notebooks for over a decade now so I havent had a numeric keyboard except for the one using the function toggle key built into the main keyboard area, which I never used because it was so janky. I assume that type of numeric keyboard was never popular as Apple removed that from their keyboards a few years back. Do modern non-Mac notebooks have the inlaid number pad in the main keyboard still?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #120 of 135
I learned to play piano at a young age. I learned to type early in high school. Years later I learned how to keypunch and a few years after that, to run various typesetting machines. Long hours at keyboards and workstations taught me a lot about proper ergonomics for typing/playing/keyboarding.

It seems to me that a touch screen iMac would put your hands and forearms in a very fatiguing position. If you look at the one diagram that shows the imaginary iMac sliding from a near-vertical position to an almost horizontal position, either the touch surface will be rather high up on your desk, or the angle will be steep enough that one will have to punch fingers into a virtual keyboard rather than using the fingertips. Both of these will put more stress on the fingers, hands, wrists, elbows and shoulders.

I think the large touch screen is a great idea but for this point and a couple of others. If I have a large screen, I don't necessarily want a virtual keyboard intruding into it, even if the keyboard appears and disappears. I want the screen's real estate reserved for the visuals. And, as another commenter said, there is definitely the greasy fingerprint factor to contend with.
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