Atheists and Agnostics know most about religion..

What does this study tell us?


Apparently more than half of Protestants could not identify Martin Luther as the person who inspired the Protestant Reformation...ok....but about four in 10 Jews did not know that Maimonides, one of the greatest rabbis and intellectuals in history, was Jewish.

But there's more:


Forty-five percent of Roman Catholics who participated in the study didn't know that, according to church teaching, the bread and wine used in Holy Communion is not just a symbol, but becomes the body and blood of Christ.

Link

I think rather that most of us who allowed ourselves to think critically rejected organized religion and saw the myths and folklore for what they are.

Getting from there to atheism requires something else which is not quite critical thinking.

Not at all. You see this is a classical example of the drop-off point I was talking about.

Thinking critically I can research the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and God and I see key differences between the three.

I can for example research the origin of Santa Claus and I find he was originally based on the historical figure of Basil of Caesarea. I can further discover that he did not exist before the Christian era and assimilated elements of German folklore.

I then realize that no trace of him has ever been found at the North Pole and that no-one has claimed to have encountered him.

Form that I draw my own conclusions: that he is a human construct based on a historical figure.

Similarly with the Tooth Fairy I can critically assume that although fairies may exist or have existed (something I do in fact believe in a certain form) in this case I see it is a Celtic legend that seems unique to western cultures and which again, is perpetuated by parents as a tradition in relation to their children.

Again, there is no evidence of someone actually BELIEVING it occurs other than the children who are the 'victims' of their parents 'knowing 'hoax'.

God is a very different matter though religion may not be. For sure many priests are 'the parents' hoaxing the 'children' who haplessly believe a myth...for sure.

But my point is that this does not in itself lead to a conclusion that God does not exist in the same way.

It may put organized religion in the same basket as Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy but it can't put God there. Not if one wants to think critically.

But I would say that personally - and I can only speak for myself - I regard myself as being at C without going through B in your second example which I accept.

I fully accept that you are there too and have arrived by a different means.

To me God is just a word for the numinous.

I fully accept that far more atheists experience it than religious people...in fact, when I talk to atheist friends about such experiences they all seem to have had them but would not call them God. Fair enough...the interesting thing is that when I mention it to religious people they very rarely know what I'm talking about.

How about 'mystical' ?

Edit: by the way what you said and quoted agrees 100% with what I said and posted yet it sounds like you are countering it....but logically you can't be.

Maybe you just find it hard when we're in agreement

I do use numinous most of the time. Just not so much here because probably only you and me and Tonton would understand it (hahah).

But I don't see God in the way you do or the way Fundies do so there is no difference for me. I can use inter-changeably.

Also it is linked because I am convinced that the original founders of religions (such as Jesus, Buddha, Moses or Muhammad) had an experience and that was an experience of the numinous.

That is to say I disagree with the idea that they 'made it all up'. That would make Jesus (say) a liar whereas it is obvious from his sayings he was a great thinker and an enlightened person.

So I am deferring to them - the Church and organized religions are the liars - when they say 'God' they do not have an experience of God, the Numinous or anything else 9 times out of 10.

But why does that mean the founder - Jesus - did not? And he used the word 'God' so that is good enough for me.

Why discard something because a moron misunderstands and corrupts it? That's their problem...otherwise you might as well get all your info on Islam from Camp David. It's the same thing.

True -but it depends on how you want to drag the 'God Squad' kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

THEY are still living in the time you describe. They don't know anything about science or the modern world in the main...let alone being able to assimilate the concept of the Numinous.

If you want to connect with them you have to say 'God' to show them their 'God' is the Numinous. If you don't they'll think you are talking about Satan or something.

Of course there is no reason to try to bring them up to speed if you don't want - may not even be possible....but personally I think the way forward is to engage them and 'convert' them by reason rather than opposition. Remember, a lot of these people deal in fear and hate and so if they feel 'opposed' it could easily turn to violence. Often does.

Edit: I want to say something else too - I do think the Numinous has some of the characteristics often ascribed to 'God' in as much as it makes one a better person.

If you were new to these boards and read all of our posts but without knowing the religious or atheist positions of everyone - if you had to make a list of 'Christians' and 'Anti-Christians' based purely on how people are behaving here and their expressed views you would - without a shadow of doubt - have mainly atheists under the 'Christian' heading and some of the notorious 'Christian' posters under the 'anti-Christian' one....purely based on their behaviour, degree of tolerance, compassion or lack of, hate-speech etc.

This tells me that Atheists have often achieved the level of humanism (for want of a better word) that Jesus and others were trying to promote.

So religion is something else. It has nothing to do with God. It has nothing to do with spirituality. It has nothing to do with Jesus, Buddha or Muhammad. And it has nothing to do with the Numinous.

Did you know the Jonathan Edwards one on the last question?????

sound of tumbleweed whistling down the desolate ruined film-set streets.....

All of it? I find that difficult to believe....