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Apple developing new iPhones with larger, smaller screens - report - Page 2

post #41 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

What evidence do you have that "Different screen resolutions, processor speeds, and memory sizes" are "starting to really hurt Android"?

All the evidence I've seen is that Android is rapidly gaining both market share and mind share among consumers. There are several hot-selling Android phones. There are several high performance Android phones, with different stuff emphasized, like a big screen or a special software suite. And there are several el-cheapo Android phones. There are even some locked-down Android phones.

All the evidence I see is that Android is tailored to meet the desires of many different types of phone buyers, and that far from starting to hurt Android, it is starting to make Android huge.

What are you talking about? I said nothing about selling devices. I talked about the struggles us developers have in testing and developing apps which run at multiple resolutions, multiple processor speeds, multiple OS versions, multiple devices etc... It does not work well if at all across all the Android devices even if they are running the same OS version.
post #42 of 106
us developers do. Far easier to develop for iOS than Android, due to the fragmentation
post #43 of 106
Maybe screen fragmentation won't be a problem for the low-end phones. Perhaps it's going to be like the 1st generation with only Apple's applications available.

It would still be a desirable product, although I admit it doesn't explain the larger screen sizes.
post #44 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

iPhone nano might happen. Will happen.

Nah.

With music players, a small, simplified device made sense. With an internet-connected, app-running phone, it makes no sense at all.

C.
post #45 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Some might see this kind of "fragmentation" as a bad thing. Fortunately for Android, the numbers don't reflect this.

who cares about android market share? Not Apple, that's for sure. Once the iPhone is on multiple carriers, the "android threat" will take care of itself. Apple would much rather have less share and greater profits - they've proven this (repeatedly) with their computers.

Does anybody really think Apple hasn't at least THOUGHT about lower-end phones? If it was worthwhile, they would have done it by now. We're approaching 4 years since the original announcement, and they haven't strayed from their single form-factor gameplan. By this time in the iPod lifecycle, they had diversified the lineup. It's just not gonna happen with the iPhone.
post #46 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

who cares about android market share? Not Apple, that's for sure. Once the iPhone is on multiple carriers, the "android threat" will take care of itself. Apple would much rather have less share and greater profits - they've proven this (repeatedly) with their computers.

Does anybody really think Apple hasn't at least THOUGHT about lower-end phones? If it was worthwhile, they would have done it by now. We're approaching 4 years since the original announcement, and they haven't strayed from their single form-factor gameplan. By this time in the iPod lifecycle, they had diversified the lineup. It's just not gonna happen with the iPhone.

Yeah, I hear ya'. I was just being nice. I didn't want to completely throw Android under the bus.
post #47 of 106
One of Steve Jobs' core retail philosophies seems to be avoiding convoluted product lines, so I don't see this happening. Has anyone ever really picked up an iPhone in the store and said "if only it were a little bigger?"

Seems like the solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
post #48 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

We're approaching 4 years since the original announcement, and they haven't strayed from their single form-factor gameplan.

Don't forget the strategy of selling last-year's model alongside the current one. But in essence you are correct.

I think the relative cost of dataplans is the real reason for this. If you are forced to fly first-class, why skimp on the hotel room?

C.
post #49 of 106
I think the smaller version iPhone will happen ... stripped down for kids and seniors ...

But they're confusing the larger version with the smaller iPad ...
post #50 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by battiato1981 View Post

I think the smaller version iPhone will happen ... stripped down for kids and seniors ...

Yeah, those seniors with their great eyes and nimble little fingers can't get enough of tiny consumer electronics.

C.
post #51 of 106
There's no reason for an iPhone nano. They aren't going to sell an iPhone for less than $100. Keep dreaming.
post #52 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

iPhone Nano? Why not. Just add phone, bluetooth and a wireless headset to the iPod Nano and you are pretty much there.


If Apple could perfect the bluetooth headset, that would work. They would have to make something that could stay in the ear all day, like a hearing aid.

I think that current bluetooth headsets are a weak point in the chain.
post #53 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

What are you talking about? I said nothing about selling devices. I talked about the struggles us developers have in testing and developing apps which run at multiple resolutions, multiple processor speeds, multiple OS versions, multiple devices etc... It does not work well if at all across all the Android devices even if they are running the same OS version.

Do you have evidence that Android development is slowing because of the factors you identify?

My point was that the ecosystem is booming despite the factors you identify. I see nothing that supports the contention that these things are "really starting to hurt Android".

Got any evidence that your struggles are hurting their platform?
post #54 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

If Apple could perfect the bluetooth headset, that would work. They would have to make something that could stay in the ear all day, like a hearing aid.

I think that current bluetooth headsets are a weak point in the chain.

I hardly see anyone using bluetooth headsets anymore in the UK. They seem to have died out.
Not sure why. But my guess is

1) No one wants to look like Lt. Uhura
2) Car kits are better

C.
post #55 of 106
Guys, why do you assume that the smaller phone would be a cheaper, lower technology model?
Doesn't the progress in technology make the size of everything smaller? Could it be that a smaller "iPhone nano" will be a super high-end model?

P.S. That is rhetorical question. Just let you open your mind.
post #56 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkerkay View Post

I think it only "seems" like it's not hurting Andriod. I think, long term, it will be bad for Andriod. Even now you hear about people (users and developers) complaining about all the different versions.

A.


Without better evidence, anybody's guess is equally good. But honestly, I think that argument sounds a lot like chicken little saying that the sky is falling.
post #57 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Do you have evidence that Android development is slowing because of the factors you identify?

My point was that the ecosystem is booming despite the factors you identify. I see nothing that supports the contention that these things are "really starting to hurt Android".

Got any evidence that your struggles are hurting their platform?

I recently went to a mobile developer conference.
Like most people, developers want the best returns for a given investment in time. The consensus was that iOS returned around 5 times more than the other platforms.

C.
post #58 of 106
It makes more sense than a lot of people give it credit for.

When people were lamenting the fact that the iPod nano was rumored to be losing video playback I pointed out that a smaller iPod touch would better serve the people that actually wanted a nano for video playback. I still stand by that. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see the nano drop in price next year to make room for a smaller, cheaper iPod touch. The Touch is the new iPod line, I fully expect it to branch out to different form factors much like the iPod did and before the iPod Touch comes the iPhone.

The iPhone line is already "fragmented". New models come out annually and bring new specs and features, and this will continue to be the case in the future. Even Apples current offerings are "fragmented". They still offer an 8 GB iPhone 3GS that has a lower screen resolution, less RAM, a slower processor, a weaker camera, etc. Wouldn't it make more sense to offer a smaller phone using the current hardware at that price point? Capping the capacity alone would keep demand high for iPhones with larger screens.

That brings us to a larger screen iPhone. Usability and pocket fit arguments aside, the best selling Android phones appear to be the ones with larger screens. Why are people buying these phones? Are they buying because of the performance specs, Android, or for the screen? If they are buying because of the screen, are they simply buying it because Apple does not offer an iPhone with a screen that big? I can't help but think that there are a lot of people that fall into that category.

The one major barrier for most people is screen resolution. Let's think about it for a second. Having three different screen resolutions would still be infinitely better than the situation with Android phones. Apple could also apply some tricks to ensure compatibility across the line. The small iPhone could get the iPhone 3GS resolution, giving it slightly smaller icons and a higher pixel density than the 3GS, but lower than the retina display. The 3.5" iPhone could maintain the Retina display, as Apple says there really is no point in increasing resolution at that size. Perhaps by sometime next year, an iPhone with a ~4" screen could have a resolution double that of of the retina display. This would allow images to be easily scaled up and down across the entire lineup. There is a more compelling option though, the oft rumored resolution independence. What if it is finally coming this year? First for iOS 5, then for Mac OS 10.7? It could happen.

The macbook pro line is divided into 3 form factors, so was the iPod line (pre touch), why would we expect any different for the new portables Apple is producing (iPhone/iPod Touch)? Apple's market strategy has always been to produce one solid product, gain a foothold, and expand upon it. I suspect that there are people not buying an iPhone because of its size and I doubt Apple will leave those markets untapped.

Edit: For the record. The fragmentation argument against Android has very little to do with specs or screen resolution. The major concern is OS fragmentation, different phones running different versions of Android. Having 3 sizes of iPhones would not result in similar fragmentation, they would all run the same version of iOS.
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post #59 of 106
Pay no attention to the hand-waving of Shaw Wu. For no reason I can think of, he continues to be treated seriously here on AI, while the rest of the civilized world has seen his track record and LOL'ed.

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post #60 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

They still offer an 8 GB iPhone 3GS that has a lower screen resolution, less RAM, a slower processor, a weaker camera, etc. Wouldn't it make more sense to offer a smaller phone using the current hardware at that price point?

No.
1) Because last year's model already has last years software written for it. Supporting it has zero cost.

2) Because a smaller screen means that apps / websites and everything else is less legible. Has to be recoded.

3) Saving a hundred dollars off the retail price is a poor deal for consumers when this is dwarfed by the cost of the data plan.

4) If consumers want a smaller device with less functionality, then then can already turn to a million and one other handset - none of which make a profit.

C.
post #61 of 106
Here are too good reasons for Apple to make both larger and smaller iPhones.





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post #62 of 106
At this point I would be surprised to see iPhones with different form factors. Simply because the current models are still in short supply - and the White iPhone 4 is apparently still not ready for market.

if the history of Apple is any indication - there will not be any chance of the iPhone on another carrier or other form factors at least until the demand for the current models drops and the supply chain is full. In other words - until the profit from the existing model run is maximized and or the consumer demand for the current model passes a peak.

Regardless of how much more potential market is untapped due to lack of form factor options - or any burden it might place on developers - we will not see larger or smaller iPhones until the bean counters deem it is necessary to maintain the profit margin the board of directors expects to see.
post #63 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

we will not see larger or smaller iPhones until the bean counters deem it is necessary to maintain the profit margin the board of directors expects to see.

I agree.

There's no real indication that there is much profitability to be had in either more capable or less capable devices. Until there is, we will not see a second device.

(other than the hand-me-down last-season model)

C.
post #64 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

No.
1) Because last year's model already has last years software written for it. Supporting it has zero cost.

2) Because a smaller screen means that apps / websites and everything else is less legible. Has to be recoded.

3) Saving a hundred dollars off the retail price is a poor deal for consumers when this is dwarfed by the cost of the data plan.

4) If consumers want a smaller device with less functionality, then then can already turn to a million and one other handset - none of which make a profit.

C.

1) Apparently new software is never written. I'm not seeing much additional work in supporting a platform using the same internals as the larger phone.
2) It's your opinion that things wouldn't be legible and would require recoding. I don't think the iPhone represents the lower edge of legibility.
3) I agree it's a bad deal, but people still buy the 8 GB 3GS.
4) Less functionality?

You didn't even read my entire post.
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post #65 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFreeman View Post

Why would you want to make an iPhone nano? You want an iPhone nano, buy a Nokia phone! These so called researchers have nothing else to talk about.

Hell, by that logic Apple would have never created the iPod in the first place becase you could already get portable music players from other places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esummers View Post

They are talking about it because Apple would dominate the Market. Better UI, industrial design, visual voicemail, face book, and iTunes support would blow other feature phones out of the water.

Spot on! Nearly every phone out there, even the non-smart phones, have the ability to sync contacts and calendar events with your computer and can play music. But I'd wager that less than 10% of non-smart phones are ever synced to a computer. Either because the carrier doesn't allow it or because you need to buy extra software or because it's just too damn complicated.

This is something where Apple's expertise could really improve things. Every iPod that has had a screen, except perhaps the very first one and the newest nano have the ability to display contact and calendar information. All you need is a phone able to sync to iTunes and you could include that information on even a "dumb" phone.

Take the new nano (putting the contacts and calendar function back on it!) and turn it into a flip phone with the same screen and I think you have a winner. Remember, dumb phones still far outsell smart phones. And an Apple iPhone nano would be come the gateway drug to get people into the Apple camp to later upgrade to a full-fledged iPhone.
post #66 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

Good move Apple. With people around the country dropping calls due to weak AT&T coverage and the absurd external antenna design, I'm sure different size iPhones are just what the world is clamoring for.

If I may make a suggestion, why not open the phone up to multiple carriers instead of multiple sizes. I do believe there is some clamor for that. And put the antenna back on the inside please.

Yes Apple, do everything the opposite of what has made this product a phenomenal success.
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post #67 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Nah.

With music players, a small, simplified device made sense. With an internet-connected, app-running phone, it makes no sense at all.

C.

Who said it would be internet connected and app-running? Not having a screen to display playlists and make selections didn't stop Apple from creating the shuffle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero910 View Post

There's no reason for an iPhone nano. They aren't going to sell an iPhone for less than $100. Keep dreaming.

Why are people so closed minded and limited to seeing value only in their own needs? As I stated in an early post, "dumb" phones still far, far outsell smart phones. Don't you think Apple might want a slice of that pie?

And besides, as more and more people get iPads (and perhaps the rumored 7" iPad), will they all also want an full-capability iPhone? Personally, I have no interest in having to carry around something as big as an iPhone all of the time. I laugh every time my friends have to take their iPhones out of their pockets and set them on the bar when we go out because they can't sit down with them in their pockets. Even funnier when someone then spills a beer on one.

I would love to have a small phone with a better UI and better syncing (music, contacts, calendar) than is currently available in non-smart phones. And then have the option of taking a full-fledged data device (touch, iPad, etc) only when I need/want to carry it. If you have an iPhone, you have no choice but to carry it with you, even if all you need is your phone.
post #68 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

As I stated in an early post, "dumb" phones still far, far outsell smart phones. Don't you think Apple might want a slice of that pie?

It isn't a pie. It's a crumb. A crumb at the bottom of a rusty old pie dish.

C.
post #69 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

Who said it would be internet connected and app-running? Not having a screen to display playlists and make selections didn't stop Apple from creating the shuffle?



Why are people so closed minded and limited to seeing value only in their own needs? As I stated in an early post, "dumb" phones still far, far outsell smart phones. Don't you think Apple might want a slice of that pie?

And besides, as more and more people get iPads (and perhaps the rumored 7" iPad), will they all also want an full-capability iPhone? Personally, I have no interest in having to carry around something as big as an iPhone all of the time. I laugh every time my friends have to take their iPhones out of their pockets and set them on the bar when we go out because they can't sit down with them in their pockets. Even funnier when someone then spills a beer on one.

I would love to have a small phone with a better UI and better syncing (music, contacts, calendar) than is currently available in non-smart phones. And then have the option of taking a full-fledged data device (touch, iPad, etc) only when I need/want to carry it. If you have an iPhone, you have no choice but to carry it with you, even if all you need is your phone.

Your more open mind and less limited vision bring into view the Kin.
post #70 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Do you have evidence that Android development is slowing because of the factors you identify?

My point was that the ecosystem is booming despite the factors you identify. I see nothing that supports the contention that these things are "really starting to hurt Android".

Got any evidence that your struggles are hurting their platform?

Man, these clueless fandroid drones are tiring. I am a developer of both Android and iPhone applications. I have personal experience Android development is horrible due to the fragmentation.

Ever google this? Do not see what i need to. But, quickly...check these bullet points and references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android...on_development
post #71 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Without better evidence, anybody's guess is equally good. But honestly, I think that argument sounds a lot like chicken little saying that the sky is falling.

tell us from your vast development experience, since you obviously do Android development, how do you go about testing your application? What emulators are you using? Do you own all the various models on all the carriers(since they do different mods to the core Android) to test on?

I am eagerly awaiting your response because this would greatly simplify our development for android.
post #72 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

As I stated in an early post, "dumb" phones still far, far outsell smart phones. Don't you think Apple might want a slice of that pie?

Why on earth would Apple want to dilute its margins making and selling a yesterday's tech product into a profitless market that's already saturated?

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post #73 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Larger iPhone, you say??? Hahaha!!!

Not necessarily larger phone. If the iPhone had a widescreen like in the mockup here:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=112805

you get a much better movie experience, better web browsing, no fragmentation as you crop apps, more room for typing in portrait mode. No downsides to it at all really and the phone is exactly the same size.

I don't get the iPhone Nano thing. I haven't heard any people complain that the iPhone is too big. If it was cheaper, that would be a big improvement but I doubt making it smaller would have much of an impact on price.
post #74 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisyphus View Post

I don't know about most people but anything larger then the iphone is just to damn big. My brother has a droid phone, I don't recall which one, but the thing is monstrous to hold and just silly to try and put it into a pocket.

But that droid can't be as wide and thick as my wallet and somehow I manage to carry that around in my pocket every day.

My problems with the current iPod/iPhone/iPad lineup are:
1. The 3.5" screen is too small for my middle aged eyes. 326dpi isn't much of an improvement if text is physically too small to read.
2. I love the inexpensive no-contract data plans for the iPad, but the device is way too big to carry around everywhere.
3. The iPod touch doesn't have 3G as an option like the iPad does.
4. iPhone contracts are too expensive.

So size really is the big issue here. I'd like to see the iPod touch scaled up to a 6" screen and 3G data added. Simply scaling down the iPad would not work because a 4:3 ratio device would be too wide.
post #75 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I recently went to a mobile developer conference.
Like most people, developers want the best returns for a given investment in time. The consensus was that iOS returned around 5 times more than the other platforms.

C.

I'll add your anecdote to the pile of conflicting facts spattering the media, like this:

"Andy Rubin, Google's Vice President of engineering -- Android development head honcho and the man behind both Android and Danger -- was quoted in the press release announcing the T-Mobile G2 that the Android Market now has over 80,000 applications -- up 10,000 from the last we heard on July 15."

http://www.androidcentral.com/google...android-market


Let's see, an 800% increase in 60 days? If we annualize that...

You get the point. The facts don't support the contention "Different screen resolutions, processor speeds, and memory sizes" are "starting to really hurt Android"?

Android is pretty much the opposite of really hurting.
post #76 of 106
I would love a 4" iPhone even if the pixel density was less. I think a lot of people over 35 like me with less than perfect eye sight would thank apple for a larger screen especially since I you can only reflow text when double tapping and not pinch zooming.
post #77 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

I have personal experience Android development is horrible due to the fragmentation.

Your horrors are likely real. But they are beside the point.

The point was "Different screen resolutions, processor speeds, and memory sizes" are "starting to really hurt Android".


I see no evidence of any such hurt, caused by the reasons cited, or otherwise.
post #78 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Android is pretty much the opposite of really hurting.

Android is not a company - or an entity.

C.
post #79 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

Ugh, here we go again. Not gonna happen, folks.

I would expect Apple has had a slew of different device sizes since long before the iPhone and iPad. I have to think that their settling on 3.5 3:2 for the iPhone and 9.7 4:3 for the iPad wasnt just board room pow wow, but actual mockups with base setups to see which would be the best overall option. I have to think they would still consider to do that.

As for this coming out as a real product, not unless they have a new UI and SDK for the App Store to go along with it, just like all iDevices running iOS.
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post #80 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

I'll add your anecdote to the pile of conflicting facts spattering the media, like this:

"Andy Rubin, Google's Vice President of engineering -- Android development head honcho and the man behind both Android and Danger -- was quoted in the press release announcing the T-Mobile G2 that the Android Market now has over 80,000 applications -- up 10,000 from the last we heard on July 15."

http://www.androidcentral.com/google...android-market


Let's see, an 800% increase in 60 days? If we annualize that...

You get the point. The facts don't support the contention "Different screen resolutions, processor speeds, and memory sizes" are "starting to really hurt Android"?

Android is pretty much the opposite of really hurting.

800%. Lol. That would be 14% and 60k a year. No great shakes. Evidence of a slowing down.
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