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Verizon, Apple quarreled over iPhone retail options, digital content - Page 6

post #201 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by LewysBlackmore View Post

...so ATT doesn't pay upfront for iPhones? Some ATT retail store managers are going to be pretty surprised when THAT gets out! And since when does business plan equate to ego?

Everyone else.. (and you know who you are *cough*cough*Blackintosh*

STOP! anthropomorphizing corporate entities. It isn't ego, it is a calculated look at the business plan, what stands to be gained and what stands to be lost in the transaction. Sheesh. Business 101 stuff. If what Apple is bringing to the table isn't net plus enough to interest Verizon (or vice versa) it doesn't happen. It is simple math and future planning. Why burden this with stupid words like "ego", or Apple hates Verizon, or whatever else has been offered along those lines? Especially article headlines that read like this one! Do not assume that because you've seen Wall Street that you understand the complex operations of large corporations.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even trolls. But not everyone is entitled to be heard, or acknowledged as being right. I submit that the old adage about "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people." It's all about intent. Trolls come to disrupt and for the particularly pernicious, to draw attention, like a small child acting up in public, to themselves.

Corporations compete, they sue, countersue, and disagree during negotiations. Occasionally individual egos get caught up in the mix, especially with highly motivated and colorful CEOs, but the vast majority of the issues are in the numbers. Stepping off my soapbox. Sorry for the rant - but not enough to delete it.

DUDE YOU LOST ME ? what trolls ?

ANYWAY
WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS COME 2012


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post #202 of 222
Certainly a lot of bs being played out here.

For clarification, perhaps a read on Wired Magazine: ISSUE 16.02 article, The Untold Story: How the iPhone Blew Up the Wireless Industry, would help get some of the facts straight.

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/wireles...6-02/ff_iphone
post #203 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by CIM View Post

Verizon needs Apple more than Apple needs them. Apple cant even meet demand for iPhone 4, but were supposed to believe theyre going to cave to Verizons crapware? Keep dreaming. Apple can stay on AT&T and choose other carriers and keep raking in more money than ever.

VZW has done quite well without Apple so why do they need them now? I'm not saying that Apple needs VZW but they do need another carrier. Simply because since ATT offered all those early upgrades and locked them into a 2 yr contract how many of you are going to buy the iPhone that comes out next year?Most wont and with the new data plans people on other carriers will be reluctant to switch. Right now Apple can't keep up with demand, but will that hold true a year from now?
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #204 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Every single cell phone manufacturers make both CDMA and GSM phones.

Except they all don't.

Quote:
WCDMA is a CDMA technology, so you might as well bone up to the fact that Qualcomm won --- Qualcomm is the size of Nokia and Ericsson COMBINED.

WCDMA is only used as the Air interface in UMTS. The rest of the network isnt compatible with CDMA.

Isn't saying therefore CDMA won a bit like saying Betamax won because VHS uses magnetic tape?

Quote:
VZW has done quite well without Apple so why do they need them now? I'm not saying that Apple needs VZW but they do need another carrier. Simply because since ATT offered all those early upgrades and locked them into a 2 yr contract how many of you are going to buy the iPhone that comes out next year?Most wont and with the new data plans people on other carriers will be reluctant to switch. Right now Apple can't keep up with demand, but will that hold true a year from now?

Which makes the argument for T-Mobile quite nicely. As its a GSM/UMTS network, albeit on a nonstandard frequency, there's less work to do.
post #205 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHawk View Post

Except they all don't.

WCDMA is only used as the Air interface in UMTS. The rest of the network isnt compatible with CDMA.

Isn't saying therefore CDMA won a bit like saying Betamax won because VHS uses magnetic tape?

You are wasting your time. samab acts as though he is some sort of trade rep for the CDMA industry. Having a discussion with him on CDMA is like talking to a lobbyist; it's in his best interest to not see the other side of the discussion.

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

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post #206 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcahill009 View Post

If Verizon was allowed to make one Vcast app that would be preinstalled on the iphone but have the ability to be deleted I would not mind it.
That, to me, seems like a fair compromise.

No, preinstall == Pandora's Box!

.
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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #207 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHawk View Post

Isn't saying therefore CDMA won a bit like saying Betamax won because VHS uses magnetic tape?

Well, your comment would work IF only that Betamax invented the magnetic tape.
post #208 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

You are wasting your time. samab acts as though he is some sort of trade rep for the CDMA industry. Having a discussion with him on CDMA is like talking to a lobbyist; it's in his best interest to not see the other side of the discussion.

I don't really see any reason for Qualcomm/CDMA hatred.

You don't like Qualcomm BREW and Verizon GIN --- well, AT&T managed to deploy BREW a decade later.

You don't like the lack of SIM card --- well, just take a look at Europe's iphone launch, people are stuck with simlocked iphone with a 2 year contract that they can't get unlocking codes even after the contract is over and there is no cost-efficient way to get out of contract because they don't believe in ETF's (let alone pro-rated ETF's).

You don't like roaming fees --- well, you should blame Vodafone or T-Mobile who operates in 20-30 countries, yet gouges their own subscribers if they ever use their cell phone on a sister network within the same corporate empire.

You don't like paying the Qualcomm patent tax --- well, GSM has their own patent troll (InterDigital). Even Nokia had to pay $250 million patent licensing fee to InterDigital on GSM patents.

http://www.infoworld.com/d/networkin...nt-dispute-108

It has been 3 years since the iphone was original launched internationally --- and it has been conclusively proven that the grass is not greener on the other side. Before the iphone, all you people talk about is Europe is so nice because of GSM this and GSM that. Well, guess what? That has all been conclusively proven to be wrong.
post #209 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

I don't really see any reason for Qualcomm/CDMA hatred.

You don't like Qualcomm BREW and Verizon GIN --- well, AT&T managed to deploy BREW a decade later.

You don't like the lack of SIM card --- well, just take a look at Europe's iphone launch, people are stuck with simlocked iphone with a 2 year contract that they can't get unlocking codes even after the contract is over and there is no cost-efficient way to get out of contract because they don't believe in ETF's (let alone pro-rated ETF's).

Not to sure about which European country that you're refering to...

Here in the UK we believe in ETF's and unlock codes (the major networks voluntary provide them). Your ETF is the remainder of your contract. Thats right - no penalty fee here, just what you would have paid anyway..

In France, SIM locks must be removed no later than 6 months before the end of the contract for free.

In Italy, SIM locks must be removef 18 months after purchase. After 9 months, they must be removed if asked and fee paid.

SIM locks are banned in Finland on GSM phones, and at the end of the contract, or 2 years (whichever is first) on 3G phones.

Denmark requires operators to remove SIM locks 6 months after purchase if requested for free, and for a fee before the 6 months ends.

All of which are better than the US's law on SIm Locks... I believe its a blank piece of paper?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock
post #210 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHawk View Post

Not to sure about which European country that you're refering to...

Here in the UK we believe in ETF's and unlock codes (the major networks voluntary provide them). Your ETF is the remainder of your contract. Thats right - no penalty fee here, just what you would have paid anyway..

In France, SIM locks must be removed no later than 6 months before the end of the contract for free.

In Italy, SIM locks must be removef 18 months after purchase. After 9 months, they must be removed if asked and fee paid.

SIM locks are banned in Finland on GSM phones, and at the end of the contract, or 2 years (whichever is first) on 3G phones.

Denmark requires operators to remove SIM locks 6 months after purchase if requested for free, and for a fee before the 6 months ends.

All of which are better than the US's law on SIm Locks... I believe its a blank piece of paper?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock

Perhaps you should read your link. There is not US law re SIM lock.

As a matter of fact, most of your facts are in error.
post #211 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Perhaps you should read your link. There is not US law re SIM lock.

Which is prescicely my point - The US law on removing sim locks is a blank piece of paper. There is no law in the US compelling removal of them. Whereas most of those selected EU countries do have laws requiring their removal - Its amazing what happens when you have good strong competition law.
Quote:
As a matter of fact, most of your facts are in error.

Please, feel free to correct me... And the Wikipedia page. Its full of citations for those claims - that should get you started on your competing reseach.
post #212 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHawk View Post

Not to sure about which European country that you're refering to...

Here in the UK we believe in ETF's and unlock codes (the major networks voluntary provide them). Your ETF is the remainder of your contract. Thats right - no penalty fee here, just what you would have paid anyway..

In France, SIM locks must be removed no later than 6 months before the end of the contract for free.

In Italy, SIM locks must be removef 18 months after purchase. After 9 months, they must be removed if asked and fee paid.

SIM locks are banned in Finland on GSM phones, and at the end of the contract, or 2 years (whichever is first) on 3G phones.

Denmark requires operators to remove SIM locks 6 months after purchase if requested for free, and for a fee before the 6 months ends.

All of which are better than the US's law on SIm Locks... I believe its a blank piece of paper?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock

UK --- paying off the remaining part of the contract is not called early termination fee, it is called paying off your contract.

France --- consumers are screwed by the presence of only 3 national carriers that were found guilty of price fixing 5 years ago. Geeks like you have no sense of reality. French court banning iphone exclusivity and all 3 carriers selling unlocked iphones (or simlocked iphones with precisely defined unlocking procedures) --- those fix the symptoms, not the actual disease. The disease is the lack of competition with only 3 national carriers.

Laws governing when and how unlocking codes are given --- don't work at all because the carriers priced the unlocking codes into their pricing structure. You forced carriers to sell a locked iphone --- they will just sell it at an insane price like 1000 euro in Germany (at that time the conversion is like 1500 US dollar).

Denmark and Italy gave their consumers 300MB and 600MB iphone plans with their original iphone plans --- and expensive as hell too. What good is so and so European carriers allow you to tether your iphone --- if you only have 100-250 MB allowance per month. People would go over that amount in half a day.

Nobody ever talks about how superior the European system is --- after the iphone was launched in 2007. If their 3G networks are so much better than the ancient US system --- then they should have given everybody unlimited iphone plans.
post #213 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHawk View Post

Which is prescicely my point - The US law on removing sim locks is a blank piece of paper. There is no law in the US compelling removal of them. Whereas most of those selected EU countries do have laws requiring their removal - Its amazing what happens when you have good strong competition law.

Please, feel free to correct me... And the Wikipedia page. Its full of citations for those claims - that should get you started on your competing reseach.

You have paraphrased most of Wikipedia's citations you posted to the point that they don't mean the same thing.

Just how the hell does a non-existant law is anything? Even a blank piece of paper.

If you were to take a test and gave the answers you wrote, you would fail, Even it was an open-book exam.
post #214 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Just how the hell does a non-existant law is anything? Even a blank piece of paper.

Laws in several european countries compel the removal of SIM locks. The US has no such law, this is my point.

I'm going to ignore everythibg else you said, because its clearly a poor attempt to troll.
post #215 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

UK --- paying off the remaining part of the contract is not called early termination fee, it is called paying off your contract.

I work for a UK telco. We call it an Early Termination fee. And that is all you pay, the rest of your contract. If you want to call the "Early Termination fee" a penalty, then you're right, we don't believe in those.
Quote:
France --- consumers are screwed by the presence of only 3 national carriers that were found guilty of price fixing 5 years ago. Geeks like you have no sense of reality. French court banning iphone exclusivity and all 3 carriers selling unlocked iphones (or simlocked iphones with precisely defined unlocking procedures) --- those fix the symptoms, not the actual disease. The disease is the lack of competition with only 3 national carriers.

The number of pysical networks isn't really that different to the rest of the world. Between 3 and 5 air carriers seems about normal, along with a swag of MVNO's.

I suppose the "Solution" to this problem is an American system, where you cant move carriers because the networks are incompatible with each other? Want to change Networks in the UK? If you bought the phone at a non-network owned Phoneshop, just buy a new sim card from your chosen network (or ask your network to unlock the phone, they almost all do and if you were in a contract theres generally no fee) with an unlocked phone, you don't even need to take a long contract, just a 30 day rolling package (or pay as you go). Want to change from Verizon to AT&T? Unless you're an electronics genius, you'll need a new phone.

Quote:
Laws governing when and how unlocking codes are given --- don't work at all because the carriers priced the unlocking codes into their pricing structure. You forced carriers to sell a locked iphone --- they will just sell it at an insane price like 1000 euro in Germany (at that time the conversion is like 1500 US dollar).

Except they all don't. Several of those countries compel it to be free. Denmark's law compels it to be a set price, set it law. My objection is to your complete generalising there. "Europe" doesn't have a position on the matter, but certain European countries do.
Quote:
Denmark and Italy gave their consumers 300MB and 600MB iphone plans with their original iphone plans --- and expensive as hell too. What good is so and so European carriers allow you to tether your iphone --- if you only have 100-250 MB allowance per month. People would go over that amount in half a day.

According to ABI research, the average North American phone user uses a mere 159MB in 2010. 97% if O2UK customers use less than 500Mb (And offer up to 1Gb) These are hardly "Small Allowances".
Quote:
Nobody ever talks about how superior the European system is --- after the iphone was launched in 2007. If their 3G networks are so much better than the ancient US system --- then they should have given everybody unlimited iphone plans.

This is why EU networks don't offer unlimited:

Because noone can possibly continue to increase the network at a rate where they possibly can offer it. Data usage has exploded! We see data usage Double every year!

No network can honestly promise unlimited data and extend the network to meet that demand. Anyone who tells you they can, is a liar.
post #216 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHawk View Post

I work for a UK telco. We call it an Early Termination fee. And that is all you pay, the rest of your contract. If you want to call the "Early Termination fee" a penalty, then you're right, we don't believe in those.

The number of pysical networks isn't really that different to the rest of the world. Between 3 and 5 air carriers seems about normal, along with a swag of MVNO's.

I suppose the "Solution" to this problem is an American system, where you cant move carriers because the networks are incompatible with each other? Want to change Networks in the UK? If you bought the phone at a non-network owned Phoneshop, just buy a new sim card from your chosen network (or ask your network to unlock the phone, they almost all do and if you were in a contract theres generally no fee) with an unlocked phone, you don't even need to take a long contract, just a 30 day rolling package (or pay as you go). Want to change from Verizon to AT&T? Unless you're an electronics genius, you'll need a new phone.


Except they all don't. Several of those countries compel it to be free. Denmark's law compels it to be a set price, set it law. My objection is to your complete generalising there. "Europe" doesn't have a position on the matter, but certain European countries do.

According to ABI research, the average North American phone user uses a mere 159MB in 2010. 97% if O2UK customers use less than 500Mb (And offer up to 1Gb) These are hardly "Small Allowances".


This is why EU networks don't offer unlimited:

Because noone can possibly continue to increase the network at a rate where they possibly can offer it. Data usage has exploded! We see data usage Double every year!

No network can honestly promise unlimited data and extend the network to meet that demand. Anyone who tells you they can, is a liar.

It's called ETF by the PR writers, doesn't actually mean it's ETF.

There is A LOT of difference between 3 to 5 carriers. ANYONE can see it with the iphone plans. The iphone's international launch provides transparency to consumers everywhere.

The American solution is much better for the average consumer. You sign a 2 year contract, they give you a free or $50 cell phone. You break the contract, you paid maybe $120 for ETF. Then you sign another contract with another carrier --- and they will give you another free or $50 cell phone. This is silicon valley stuff where CPU goes up in speed every 18 months. It means that that zero dollar new phone is actually better than your 2 year old phone that you supposedly just got your unlocking codes for to switch to a new carrier. I really don't care whether my old phone is GSM and my new carrier is CDMA --- because my brand new zero dollar CDMA phone will have a CPU that is twice the speed as the old phone.

Denmark doesn't have a set price --- somebody just wrote it in the wikipedia WITHOUT any sort of citation.

The average data figure --- means that they includes hundreds of millions of feature phones and tens of millions of smartphones.

AT&T managed to give out unlimited iphone data plans for a couple of years --- yet still maintain FASTER 3G iphone speed than many many many European countries according to the wired.com survey. And AT&T has been widely criticized for their weak 3G network. Imagine HOW BAD the European networks are --- if they only give their subscribers 100 MB - 250 MB a month AND still have slower speed than AT&T's 3G iphone speed.
post #217 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

It's called ETF by the PR writers, doesn't actually mean it's ETF.

The American solution is much better for the average consumer. You sign a 2 year contract, they give you a free or $50 cell phone. You break the contract, you paid maybe $120 for ETF. Then you sign another contract with another carrier --- and they will give you another free or $50 cell phone. This is silicon valley stuff where CPU goes up in speed every 18 months. It means that that zero dollar new phone is actually better than your 2 year old phone that you supposedly just got your unlocking codes for to switch to a new carrier. I really don't care whether my old phone is GSM and my new carrier is CDMA --- because my brand new zero dollar CDMA phone will have a CPU that is twice the speed as the old phone.

The average consumer doesn't need a new phone each year. They just need a phone that texts and calls. The Average consumer probably cant even tell you what a CPU is, much less what the speed is in their phone. If they want a new phone, they can still get one.
Quote:
Denmark doesn't have a set price --- somebody just wrote it in the wikipedia WITHOUT any sort of citation.

Source?
Quote:
AT&T managed to give out unlimited iphone data plans for a couple of years --- yet still maintain FASTER 3G iphone speed than many many many European countries according to the wired.com survey. And AT&T has been widely criticized for their weak 3G network. Imagine HOW BAD the European networks are --- if they only give their subscribers 100 MB - 250 MB a month AND still have slower speed than AT&T's 3G iphone speed.

And O2UK only gave it up a few months ago. Thats right, a European carrier mantained Unlimited Data longer than AT&T.

AT&T's currently listed baseline data package is a mere 200Mb. O2Uk, T-Mobile Uk, Three UK? 500Mb. Guess they're having more problems than us.
post #218 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenHawk View Post

The average consumer doesn't need a new phone each year. They just need a phone that texts and calls. The Average consumer probably cant even tell you what a CPU is, much less what the speed is in their phone. If they want a new phone, they can still get one.

Source?

And O2UK only gave it up a few months ago. Thats right, a European carrier mantained Unlimited Data longer than AT&T.

AT&T's currently listed baseline data package is a mere 200Mb. O2Uk, T-Mobile Uk, Three UK? 500Mb. Guess they're having more problems than us.

The average American talks 3-4x more voice minutes than Brits and the average American SMS more than Brits now. Not only are Brits stuck with an old phone, they are not using the phone itself --- it's a "fashion accessory".

It's listed in wikipedia as citation needed. You should provide source to tell me that whoever amateur wrote it know what they are talking about.

O2 UK also throttles the iphone speed from the beginning for PAYG iphones. Now you guys are down to 4 national carriers (from 5), prices are going to up.
post #219 of 222
Seriously, samab, do you just read from from the CDMA-industry talking points and regurgitate them here? Is that all you have to add to the discussion? Is that your job, CDMA-industry astroturfing on forums on the intarwebz?

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

Reply

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

Reply
post #220 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Seriously, samab, do you just read from from the CDMA-industry talking points and regurgitate them here? Is that all you have to add to the discussion? Is that your job, CDMA-industry astroturfing on forums on the intarwebz?

No, seriously --- what's with all the CDMA hatred?

Where have you guys been for the last 3 years?

BEFORE the iphone was launched --- people like you BLAMED Qualcomm/CDMA for everything that "seemed" to be wrong with the state of American wireless industry.

Guess what? The grass was definitively proven to be not greener on the other side. Somehow I get attacked for posting the obvious lessons from the last 3 years.
post #221 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

No, seriously --- what's with all the CDMA hatred?

Where have you guys been for the last 3 years?

BEFORE the iphone was launched --- people like you BLAMED Qualcomm/CDMA for everything that "seemed" to be wrong with the state of American wireless industry.

Guess what? The grass was definitively proven to be not greener on the other side. Somehow I get attacked for posting the obvious lessons from the last 3 years.

Neither technology is perfect. You seem to be the only person that can't seem to realize that. Which leads me to believe that your job is closely aligned with the CDMA industry. Who else wouldn't realize the shortcomings of CDMA in the real world (slower speeds, lack of simultaneous voice+data as implemented by Verizon & Sprint, etc.)

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

Reply

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

Reply
post #222 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post

So the iPhone was wildly successful before it was released? Isn't that the time frame when the original negotiations took place?

There's that word again. Idiotic. We were using that word a lot yesterday. Why is letting Verizon make some money on the iPhone idiotic? Apple let ATT make a bag of cash by making them exclusive partners. Was that fair business??

Has it occurred to you that no carrier is everywhere? Has it occurred to you that there must be somebody on the planet that would like an iPhone with it's beautiful scratch prone glass body and innovative exterior antenna that drops calls when held naturally in your left hand. Hypothetically this person would not buy an iPhone until it is available on other carriers.

So Apple would sell more phones and make more profit for itself and it's shareholders and everybody would be happy. Everyone except the members of this forum.

Idiotic. Yeah, your right. It would be idiotic to allow V Cast on an iPhone. It would really ruin everything. Idiotic. Yes indeed.

I'm sure that this is very important to you. I'm not sure why you are so animated but in your enthusiasm you seem to have forgotten how to use the words you, your and you're. As you don't appear to have mastered these basics, I am disinclined to pay much attention to your opinion and I'm pretty sure that ignoring people like you isn't causing Apple's business progress too much hinderance.
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