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Microsoft, Adobe execs discuss Apple, potential merger in meeting - Page 3

post #81 of 138
If anyone was talking merger in this meeting, it was Adobe. Microsoft needs Adobe in house now about as much as they need Nokia. Adobe is a large, expensive company who's product line is mature with limited growth (just like Nokia). Adobe wants Flash to be the mobile standard much like the desktop, but they were hampered by their own inability to deliver a working product for 3 years. And what would an Adobe+Microsoft alliance do for Flash? Clearly Microsoft already has Silverlight and is likely basing much of its developer platform for Windows Phone 7 around it. Bringing in Adobe would mean they have two incompatible code bases to deal with and neither would be on any of Apple's mobile products anyway. Combining forces wouldn't push further adoption of either company's products in the mobile space...there's just no synergy.

Not to mention that Microsoft's M&A strategy is a lot like Apple in that they usually buy smaller companies only occasionally that show a lot of upside value to them (in terms of multiples). Examples include Great Plains (which got Microsoft into the small business ERP space and Bungie, which launched Halo for the Xbox). Buying a behemoth like Adobe would return little upside value to shareholders in exchange for $25 billion dollars to Adobe investors. That money is best either reinvesting in home grown technologies, smaller more nimble acquisition targets or returning money to investors via the dividend.

Frankly, I wonder what Adobe & Microsoft even had to discuss at the CEO level.
post #82 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by sausage&Onion View Post

I'm still on CS4. I was hoping that they would have fixed the crash happy Illustrator... it can't be WORSE... right?

I have just upgraded to cs5 no crashes no more but screen redraw speed is slower I feel. Then again I am working on a 5gb file
post #83 of 138
yeah right. M$FT want to kill the mac. period... the only reason they keep the mac bu is that they want the market share. If the mac was not around there would be no viable alternative. And before some hipster screams linux or BSD I mean viable to mainstream creative companies and home users...
post #84 of 138
While I don't think it will happen, an interesting sidebar is that while Google has acquired 23 companies this year, and Apple five, Microsoft hasn't made a single acquisition year to date. The only major tech company not to have bought someone. Might be saving up for a big one, or saving for retirement.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart...sitions-2010-9
post #85 of 138
Bloated passe companies merge? Only thing missing from this obituary is Yahoo!
post #86 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by anakin1992 View Post

good, it is good for apple, so apple can create its own photoshop suites.

Well if their development of aperture and now the FCP suite is anything to go on I would not count on it.
post #87 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by CIM View Post

Theres no way Microsoft would spend roughly $25B on Adobe. What exactly would they gain?

Ballmer is an idiot, but I doubt hes that big of one.

Never underestimate the scope of his idiocy.

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post #88 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

If anyone was talking merger in this meeting, it was Adobe. Microsoft needs Adobe in house now about as much as they need Nokia. Adobe is a large, expensive company who's product line is mature with limited growth (just like Nokia). Adobe wants Flash to be the mobile standard much like the desktop, but they were hampered by their own inability to deliver a working product for 3 years. And what would an Adobe+Microsoft alliance do for Flash? Clearly Microsoft already has Silverlight and is likely basing much of its developer platform for Windows Phone 7 around it. Bringing in Adobe would mean they have two incompatible code bases to deal with and neither would be on any of Apple's mobile products anyway. Combining forces wouldn't push further adoption of either company's products in the mobile space...there's just no synergy.

Not to mention that Microsoft's M&A strategy is a lot like Apple in that they usually buy smaller companies only occasionally that show a lot of upside value to them (in terms of multiples). Examples include Great Plains (which got Microsoft into the small business ERP space and Bungie, which launched Halo for the Xbox). Buying a behemoth like Adobe would return little upside value to shareholders in exchange for $25 billion dollars to Adobe investors. That money is best either reinvesting in home grown technologies, smaller more nimble acquisition targets or returning money to investors via the dividend.

Frankly, I wonder what Adobe & Microsoft even had to discuss at the CEO level.

Most reasonable so far.

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post #89 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celco View Post

I have just upgraded to cs5 no crashes no more but screen redraw speed is slower I feel. Then again I am working on a 5gb file

A 5 gig Illustrator file? What the heck are you doing?

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post #90 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisRankin View Post

This is a scary thought for all us graphic designers that rely on Creative Suite to do our jobs.

You'll just have to run it under Windows. Apple was already insisting Macs are PCs, too.

It would be much bigger problem if Apple would merge with Adobe, since non-Apple machines can't (legally) run OSX.
post #91 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post

How can it be called a blockade if Adobe doesn't even have a full Flash for iOS to be released?

Why would Adobe invest money in creating Flash for iOS when SJ already said, more than once, that he will not let Flash on iDevices..?
post #92 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

The implication of course is that, after acquiring Adobe, Microsoft would then kill off the Mac versions of all the Adobe product lines. This logic is faulty in that Mac products are a significant source of revenue for Adobe, as is Office for Microsoft. It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Add to that the obvious anti-competitive ramifications and it would all but impossible for Ballmer to do this expressly to damage Apple.

Therefore the original poster's logic is ludicrous, as you imply.

Short term... maybe. Long term, well, without OSX CS down the pipeline, designers will have no choice but to get Windows version. And Windows to run it on their Macs (or a Windows PC).

At the end of the day, number of sold CS copies would be the same (more or less), MS would sell a handful more Windows OS and Office copies, Microsoft partners would sell more high-end workstations, while MS/Adobe would also save some money on developing for only 1 platform.
post #93 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by computadude View Post

merger of 2 sinking ships = EPIC FAIL

Not as epic as your post, mate...
post #94 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Folks -- Microsoft buying Adobe does not automatically mean that Photoshop etc will no longer be on the Mac. Note that Microsoft is actually *improving* Office for the Mac with the upcoming release, bringing it to feature-parity with Windows for Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and almost feature parity with Outlook. If MS were out to screw the Mac, why would they be doing that?

Microsoft would not be buying Adobe to hurt the Mac. They would be buying Adobe to compete with the iPhone. Although how they think that would help them compete with the iPhone, I really have no idea. What would Microsoft do with Silverlight? I think this really would be a bizarre strategy for MS to pursue. MS has the resources to compete with the iPhone without wasting a ton of money on Adobe. Sad if Balmer doesn't know that.

Well, Microsoft doesn't have any graphics/design oriented software... well, any decent at least (Microsoft Publisher and such don't count). Considering that, graphics/design is market they have space to grow into... thus I can see them interested in having (or purchasing into) Microsoft Creative Suite.

Just a theory.
post #95 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

"beginning with the introduction of the first iPhone, and its exclusion of Flash, in 2007"


There wasn't Flash for ARM in 2007, only Flash Lite, which was a small subset of an older Flash engine.

Adobe only recently made the full Flash available and it runs like crap except on the most powerful handsets.

Last compare I have seen showed Flash (and HTML5) running better on latest Androids than HTML5 on iPhone 4. Even after people cried "conspiracy!" and came up with highly optimised HTML5 tests for iPhone, it was still slower than same tests on Androids.

Have I missed anything important..?
post #96 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by am8449 View Post

If, for the sake of argument, MS bought Adobe and axed the Creative Suite on the Mac, couldn't you just dual boot into Windows (from an Intel Mac) and use Creative Suite that way?

I've heard CS is better on Windows anyway, no? What would be the difference?

I also made that point.

Pros would have to buy CS for Windows - no other choice there. MS would sell number of CS copies for Windows comparable to hypothetical Windows + OSX numbers, while reducing development costs (1 instead of 2 platforms) and making more Mac users purchase Windows and Office (since there is no iWork for Windows).

I have no idea if that would be worth fat price Adobe is commanding, but there might be a potential there.
post #97 of 138
Adobe will go eventually. To MSFT, AAPL, GOOG or even ORCL.

I still think APPL should acquire ADBE.

There are many strategic reasons, but after all ADBE is in very profitable business selling plastic.

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post #98 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

A 5 gig Illustrator file? What the heck are you doing?

Thats exactly what I am thinking.....

Maybe He is doing a HUGE billboard project for a movie or something.. At least if he has a 64-bit capable Mac, at least he will have all the RAM at his disposal !!
post #99 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Many have joked Apple should have bought Adobe long ago ... now I wonder if this may have been a good idea.

Yeah, this Microshaft/Adobe in bed together is the worse thing that could happen to us all.

In fact, a nightmare!

Hurry up Apple, and BUY BLOODY ADOBE !!!
post #100 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktronix View Post

So is Microsoft merging under Adobe?

I truely truely hope this is not going down.

Please no, please NO!
post #101 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury99 View Post

Adobe will go eventually. To MSFT, AAPL, GOOG or even ORCL.

I still think APPL should acquire ADBE.

There are many strategic reasons, but after all ADBE is in very profitable business selling plastic.

Adobe is actually less profitable now than they were three years ago. Meanwhile Apple grows profits at a rate of 30-50% per year.

Apple is in the very profitable business. Compared to Apple, Adobe is a boat anchor.
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post #102 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by computadude View Post

merger of 2 sinking ships = EPIC FAIL

Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

I think the pair would suit each other. Heart warming in a way. It's like two school retards finally hitting it off in later life, then getting married (then dropping stone dead during the honeymoon).

I see drift, but I sure as hell don't see sinkin'. Look outside your consumer electronics, cool OS blinders.....

MS: Yeah, plenty of chinks in the armor, especially in areas where the public sees, but all flesh wounds to the core business. No real competition to Office anywhere on the horizon. No chance of PC OS falling below 80% in the next decade and Win 7 is actually, while not my choice, much improved (all it had to be) and a hit. Solid solid server share in the Enterprise - all huge money. Outlook. Exchange. Hate 'em, but not going anywhere.

As for their peripheral businesses, Sync (in Fords) is at least a modest hit. Bing on Verizon (ironically on all their Androids). Do you know what each 1% share of search engine queries is worth? Hint - billions. Haven't heard much distress out of the X-Box camp and many gamers are choosing it as their set-top box.

Not nearly as dead in the phone market as people think based on the Win 7 mobile buzz. And the RSP market (really smart phones) is hardly mature. Not too late for a huge company with enterprise backing to muscle in - and while many say it's down to a replay of Win v. Mac with iOS v Android, with net standards and the cellcos themselves in the mix, the market may not compress to one huge and one boutique player this time. There could be three viable major players (APPL, GOOG and MS) with staying power plus other niches, e.g., HP/Palm, Intel/Nokia, etc. around for a long time.

IE 9 is supposed to stanch the browser share loss based on, again, good pre-reviews. New version of Mac Office just coming out. And while the Live stable's buzzless, there's big cloud infrastructure being assembled nonetheless.

Revenues up. Profits up. R&D actually showing signs of gelling. Where's the sink?

Adobe is not in as strong a position as MS - the Flash wars do aim closer to its core - and has a much smaller market cap than either MS or Apple, but also has a number of iconic products that have led to sales increases for 9 out of 10 years (through 2009), and most of which are not under serious assault. I could go on about Adobe, but the point is clear:

Apple's in great, but not unassailable shape. MS often looks clumsy and dances like a drunken elephant, but has lots of deep pockets, entrenched market positions, talented staff and is hardly an epic fail. And lots of you are likely cueing up to buy either Photoshop or the new Mac Photoshop Elements.

Still, all that being said, it's still hard to really grok what probable and important synergies a merger would have for either MS or A. Remember the story talked about joint ventures as another possibility. And given the extended and painful federal (and EEC?) scrutiny a merger would cause, and in the wake of the MS/Yahoo stand-off which ended with such a strategic partnership, my two cents is that this route would be more likely.

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post #103 of 138
And Ballmer reportedly referred to Adobe's CEO as "Haji" and "Aqbar" on more than one occasion during the meeting.
post #104 of 138
I sure hope Steve has a Photoshop replacement waiting in the wings because killing off the Mac version of all there software would be Ballmer's first directive.
post #105 of 138
Quote:
...to discuss a number of topics, including a ..... even a merger

I think i'm going to be sick!!!!

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post #106 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotTylerDurden View Post

I've been a Apple user since 1989 and I love my Mac but I need the creative suite to get my work done. If they merged, I would have to look into buying a PC as sad as that makes me. Damn, I hope this doesn't happen.

I guess an alternative would be to go buy the fastest mac I could afford and the latest version of the Creative Suite and see if I could wait out this tragedy until something changed. That should at least get me two years before I would have to make another hardware decision. It's like battening the hatches before the storm.

It wouldn't make sense for MS to kill CS for Mac... they are putting a lot of resources into Office for Mac... I think if MS is after Adobe, it is to try come up with a compelling App store alternative... something based on Flash technology so they can get lots of crappy apps built fast. MS is neglecting the fundamentals of development (hardware, os, software) because they've screwed the pooch on all 3 levels and need to buy their way back into the game.

This is all about the mobile space...
post #107 of 138
I wonder. If Apple did buy Adobe would they drop Flash altogether?
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post #108 of 138
Adobe don't need to merge with anyone to solve the Flash on iPhone issue, there is a purely technical solution, namely making their products generate HTML5/JS/CSS code.
post #109 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The meetings were said to last over an hour, and the subject of Apple was one of the main talking points.

If this meeting lasted just over an hour - that means they basically got to say hello, exchange business cards and sit down, have a short formal introduction of who is present, and have a basic exchange of standpoints, a couple of replies and then have Steve Ballmer launch the contents of his intestines at Apple for about 20 minutes straight - and that's it. An hour is a very short time.

I think such a merge would become the formal death of Adobe. Employees quitting and starting new, small companies - creating competing (better) products from scratch.

If anything, the purpose of this meeting alone - and its leaks - appears to me just to send shivers down the industry - and a way for Microsoft to demonstrate that they are still the boss.
post #110 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

A 5 gig Illustrator file? What the heck are you doing?


Actually I am mocking up a magazine and website into "boards" for a client.. I use illustrator as its faster for me to edit than indesign and I can layout multiple size art boards. Lots and lots of eps and images....
post #111 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post

How can it be called a blockade if Adobe doesn't even have a full Flash for iOS to be released?

yes they do.

Anyway, this is likely the biggest blunder adobe could possibly pull. There's no way they'd be stupid enough to hitch up with the titanic. Adobe's strategy, which seems to be working, is to partner with everyone else.
What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
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What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
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post #112 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post

Jesus Christ. This is why Apple should have bought Adobe years ago.

Agree!
post #113 of 138
I don't care (for the most part) who gets them, I just want my Freehand back

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post #114 of 138
Well Apple should buyout Adobe. I can't see Microsoft getting approval as it not only has the Expression Suite, silverlight/WMV, .Net, and IIS that overlap with CS, Flash, Adobe AIR, and ColdFusion. I'm pretty sure there are more areas of overlap that would create a bigger monopoly. Not to mention Microsoft would start the document war again by twisting Adobe document formats and breaking compatibility.

As far as alternatives to some of Adobes products these come to mind:

ACD Canvas 11 (Photoshop/Illustrator)
Autodesk SketchBook Pro (Photoshop)
Inkscape (Illustrator)
Scribus (Indesign)
Panic Coda (Dreamweaver)
Pixelmator (Photoshop)
Eclipse (Flex/Flashbuilder)
Titanium Appcelerator (AIR)
Nuke, Shake, ehh Motion (After Effects)
Final Cut Pro (Premiere)
Soundtrack Pro (Soundbooth/Audition)
DVD Studio Pro (Encore)
EditShare LightWorks (Premiere)
post #115 of 138
[QUOTE=z3r0;1729203]Well Apple should buyout Adobe. I can't see Microsoft getting approval as it not only has the Expression Suite, silverlight/WMV, .Net, and IIS that overlap with CS, Flash, Adobe AIR, and ColdFusion. I'm pretty sure there are more areas of overlap that would create a bigger monopoly. Not to mention Microsoft would start the document war again by twisting Adobe document formats and breaking compatibility.

As far as alternatives to some of Adobes products these come to mind:

- Freehand (instead of Illustrator) - if the government would have made them sell it off, (when purchasing MacroMedia) seeing it really was the only competition out there.

I'm NOT big on the government getting involved, but this is one time I wish they had.
post #116 of 138
New company name = Microdobe.

In the short term such a merger would have no impact on Apple computing or mobile platforms.

I really can't see of any advantage for either of them to merge, how would such a merger help them compete with Apple?

Microsoft is trying to break into the mobile market with WinMo 7 to which Adobe can't add that much value while Adobe is a tools company which Microsoft already has lots of and hasn't demonstrated tons of desire to compete in.

Just thinking out loud.
post #117 of 138
So basically Microsoft is admitting they are incapable of challenging Apple's innovative forward momentum and their continued success in their products. It boils down to them trying to merge with other companies that are equally inept at innovation or vision to achieve what exactly?

Maybe Ballmer should just liquidate its assets and give it back to their shareholders
post #118 of 138
I'm personally eager awaiting monday 11 October 2010 to see how much air this new windows phone 7 will suck out of Apple and Google's Android market success. Its going to be bittersweet to see if this goes the way of the kin
post #119 of 138
Well I always did find Freehand kind of awkward as well as Fireworks. I think I would go with Inkscape over Freehand if I couldn't use Illustrator.

Freeverse LineForm might be another option though its pretty basic: http://www.freeverse.com/mac/product/?id=6020

[QUOTE=ncee;1729220]
Quote:
Originally Posted by z3r0 View Post

Well Apple should buyout Adobe. I can't see Microsoft getting approval as it not only has the Expression Suite, silverlight/WMV, .Net, and IIS that overlap with CS, Flash, Adobe AIR, and ColdFusion. I'm pretty sure there are more areas of overlap that would create a bigger monopoly. Not to mention Microsoft would start the document war again by twisting Adobe document formats and breaking compatibility.

As far as alternatives to some of Adobes products these come to mind:

- Freehand (instead of Illustrator) - if the government would have made them sell it off, (when purchasing MacroMedia) seeing it really was the only competition out there.

I'm NOT big on the government getting involved, but this is one time I wish they had.
post #120 of 138
Everybody who thinks that Apple should buy Adobe ought to take a look at their earnings over the last three years. That should sober you up.
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