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Microsoft unveils plans for first nine Windows Phone 7 handsets - Page 8

post #281 of 334
10/13/10 at 6:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I should say I approve of the decision of Microsoft to bring widgets to the lock screen. It's something that Apple should do next.

But let's be 100% honest. Bringing information to the lock screen makes the device more seductive and easier to get into. Not easier to get out of.

A widget that proclaims, hey look a new Email from your girlfriend! - another 200 posts on Twitter! - Hey, check out this photo of last-night's party on Facebook! - all of these things will have the effect of drawing us into the phone world. They will do nothing to get us out of it.

The notion that this will get us out of phoneworld one second faster is dishonest.

This argument is one I can get behind, or at least understand. Thanks for the clarification.
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post #282 of 334
10/13/10 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The notion that this will get us out of phoneworld one second faster is dishonest.

Checking next calendar appointment takes about 10 seconds less on WP7 compared to iPhone4.

The 10 seconds isn't as important as the fact the information is brought the user as opposed to going and looking for it. I've missed my fair share of meetings because I forgot to check the calendar application and only received the notification 15 minutes before it started.
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post #283 of 334
10/13/10 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I've missed my fair share of meetings because I forgot to check the calendar application and only received the notification 15 minutes before it started.

Set your calendar event to remind you more than once -and- to give you more than a 15 minute lead time?
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post #284 of 334
10/13/10 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Set your calendar event to remind you more than once -and- to give you more than a 15 minute lead time?

I only get single alerts. It might have something to do with being sync'd to Exchange?
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post #285 of 334
10/13/10 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Checking next calendar appointment takes about 10 seconds less on WP7 compared to iPhone4.

The 10 seconds isn't as important as the fact the information is brought the user as opposed to going and looking for it. I've missed my fair share of meetings because I forgot to check the calendar application and only received the notification 15 minutes before it started.

If you read my post, I approve of bringing notification messages to the lockscreen. I think Microsoft has gotten this right. And I am not alone in thinking that Apple should visit notifications as the thing to fix in iOS5.

But just for a second, visualise the WP7 lockscreen, with all those notifications, invites, photographs and quick dial tiles.


Doesn't it remind you just little bit of this?


Notifications can only serve to draw us into the phone.
I am not saying this is a bad thing.

It's a good thing.

But it's simply not honest to stick Times Square on the front of your phone and make out that this will somehow help keep the phone in the pocket.

C.

(I am a bit skeptical of your 10second figure. - To check appointments, I press calendar. It launches in under a second)
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post #286 of 334
10/13/10 at 7:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I don't think you're listening to me. I'm not arguing that commercials have to be literally truthful, or that emotionally appealing flights of fancy are illegitimate means for crafting a sales pitch. Very obviously, commercials do this all the time.

But when Red Bull tells you it can grow wings, it's a message congruent with what's being sold. When car ads imply they can make you fierce masters of your own destiny, or any ad tells you the product makes you sexy and desirable, those are messages in sync with what is being sold. Fatuous, perhaps, or quite probably a pack of lies, but the emotional resonance aligns with the nature of the thing being sold.

The MS ad does not. You act as if the fact that commercials are nonsensical in certain ways mean that they may be nonsensical in any or every way and still work, but that's not the case. To be successful, the dreams of advertising have to make at least dream sense-- I can be powerful, I can be beautiful, I can have control over my life, I am wise and discriminating, I am a rebel, etc.

"I can be less of a self-absorbed asocial buffoon by doing more of what they're showing me is the problem but, I guess, slightly differently" is not a dream that aligns with anything. It's a solid two steps of meta away from landing with the impact of "having wings" or "being hot." KFC is never going to run ads with pictures of fat people with the implicit message that the new chicken lard bucket is slimming because they redesigned the bucket. Network television is never going to introduce the fall line up by showing people with no lives, wall eyed on their couches, suggesting that perhaps these new shows will get you out and about. They don't because no matter what they might say, no one is ever going to buy the idea that some new version of what they're selling actually improves the well known side effects, and drawing attention to the well known side effects just puts people off the whole enterprise. Although apparently because many ads have fanciful techniques it precludes pointing out that a "KFC makes you skinny" ad would be wrong headed because "that's how advertising works"?

Hmmm, I see Gruber is making the same point here, no doubt because he doesn't know how advertising works. He does speculate, however, that perhaps MS is targeting first time smartphone buyers, people for whom the idea that "other people" are the jerks that they won't become might have some traction.

All of this, of course, is entirely adjacent to whether or not WP 7 is a good product or not, or it's chances of being successful, or even if MS will subsequently run less garbled ads. I'm just talking about this one ad.

You make some really good points, but to be honest these are the first MS ads in a looong time that didn't outright revolt me.

At least they aren't shooting themselves in the foot.

PS Carniphage has some excellent points as well.
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post #287 of 334
10/13/10 at 7:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

But just for a second, visualise the WP7 lockscreen, with all those notifications, invites, photographs and quick dial tiles.

...

Doesn't it remind you just little bit of this:

...

Not really, the notifications aren't ads which would be real annoying. I'm sure Verizon would like to try something like that though. Are the notifications passively providing information or acting like blink tags trying to draw your attention? Granted the normal behavior is likely to have the phone vibrate when new stuff comes in but once that's past it's hopefully fairly static and not animating.

Quote:
Notifications can only serve to draw us into the phone.
I am not saying this is a bad thing.

It's a good thing.

But it's simply not honest to stick Times Square on the front of your phone and make out that this will somehow help keep the phone in the pocket.

It can in as much as a glance tells you sufficient status without needing to unlock and start to interact with apps. Glancing at your crackberry when it buzzes often isn't the killer, it's the tendency to instantly respond. Minimizing the opportunity for interaction can keep the phone, if not in your pocket, at least to a more passive distraction.

The issue is that it really isn't much more work to unlock unless you have some corporate mandated 8 character+ password with one upper case, one lower case, a number and a special symbol and a 2 minute timeout period. Then mucking around to enter your password would slow you down enough to not want to unlock as often.
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post #288 of 334
10/13/10 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Not really, the notifications aren't ads which would be real annoying.

With your phone they dont have to advertise to get you to look at the display because theyve already got you, but with ads they do try to entice you to get that brand or product in your mind. In the end they still do the same thing, which is relay specific information quickly.
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post #289 of 334
10/13/10 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Are the notifications passively providing information or acting like blink tags trying to draw your attention?

If we look at the WP7 screens presented to date, it is clear that in almost all cases these tiles serve as billboards asking us to drive in and sample the wares within. We have to go into the phone get at the information. They animate to attract attention, just like the jumbotrons in Times Square.

"20 waiting emails!" is an invitation to read them. The tile does not present the email contents. Do you see my point?

C.
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post #290 of 334
10/13/10 at 7:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

If we look at the WP7 screens presented to date, it is clear that in almost all cases these tiles serve as billboards asking us to drive in and sample the wares within. We have to go into the phone get at the information. They animate to attract attention, just like the jumbotrons in Times Square.

"20 waiting emails!" is an invitation to read them. The tile does not present the email contents. Do you see my point?

C.

You're cherry picking. There was never a promise that data would be transferred directly into your brain. If you want to read an email you still need to open the email.

The point is that overall you can achieve more in less time with WP7 than some other mobile OS's. Just because you can find examples where it doesn't save time doesn't destroy the entire message of the ad or mean that it's dishonest.
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post #291 of 334
10/13/10 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You're cherry picking. There was never a promise that data would be transferred directly into your brain. If you want to read an email you still need to open the email.

The point is that overall you can achieve more in less time with WP7 than some other mobile OS's. Just because you can find examples where it doesn't save time doesn't destroy the entire message of the ad or mean that it's dishonest.

I *like* the idea of widgets. I *approve* of ways of bringing relevant timely information to the surface of the phone.

But honestly, such innovations will give us even more reasons than ever to go into phone-land and not fewer.

Which is why I think to base the CENTRAL MESSAGE of an advertising campaign around the notion that this will keep phones in our pockets is poorly thought out at best and dishonest at worst.

C.
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post #292 of 334
10/13/10 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I *like* the idea of widgets. I *approve* of ways of bringing relevant timely information to the surface of the phone.

But honestly, such innovations will give us even more reasons than ever to go into phone-land and not fewer.

Which is why I think to base the CENTRAL MESSAGE of an advertising campaign around the notion that this will keep phones in our pockets is poorly thought out at best and dishonest at worst.

C.

I think the point is that a lot of people are already trawling through multiple applications searching for the information that WP7 will pull back from multiple 3rd party sources and present to you allowing you to achieve more in less time.

You're looking at a specific situation of someone that doesn't currently spend any time on things like managing appointments or viewing\\updating social networks. If someone has a Facebook account with friends but doesn't actually spend any time looking at Facebook, then I think said person would be more likely to be drawn into following their friends because they would see status and photo updates during their normal daily use of their phone. I do understand where you're coming from, I just don't think that is the most common situation or the one that is addressed by the ad.
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post #293 of 334
10/13/10 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I think the point is that a lot of people are already trawling through multiple applications searching for the information that WP7 will pull back from multiple 3rd party sources and present to you allowing you to achieve more in less time.

I accept that technically this UI design is a smart move by MS.
I accept that this is a strong point of differentiation over other handsets. So much so that it could be the central point of the ad-campaign.

But instead the campaign focusses on the negative "douchiness" of being engaged in a handset.
I think this is a dangerous direction because it's hostile to the very people who MS should be trying to attract.

I'd be happy to see an ad that builds upon "get to your stuff faster". I think that is a strong and compelling message.

But this ad is mis-directed because the advertisers have confused "get in faster" with "get out faster". We all know that isn't the case at all. The number one reason to put down a phone is not being able to find anything interesting in there. The most compelling reason to stay in a phone is to have a screenful of tiley-widgets all clamoring for your interaction like some attention-starved tamagochi.

C.
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post #294 of 334
10/13/10 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_Keeper_Fan_Mod

So these 'tiles' are different from an icon how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I'm not sure if that was rhetorical!!

In any case... each tile is basically a widget. They can display whatever information the application wants them to as opposed to a simple count or indicator that new content is available. Examples could be the weather, a stock tracker, the location of your next appointment, a warning from some kind of monitoring application etc etc etc

Somewhere, in one of the WP7 videos, they showed the lock or "startup" screen -- the one you get before you unlock or hit the start button (which displays the hub/tiles).

This lock screen displayed, next appointment, weather, stocks, missed calls & messages, etc.

That's what I would like on the iPhone (or any phone) -- a customizable lock screen, without JailBreaking. This is even more desirable on an iPad.

That way, with a quick glance, you can determine if anything needs your attention... or the phone goes back in your pocket.


The WP7 hub/Active tiles are another thing. After investigation, the Active Tiles appear to work like this:

1) notifications are received by push and/or polling
2) if the device is asleep, the notification tokens are saved.
3) the next time the Start key is pressed, the notifications are sent to a server
4) the content for the tokens are downloaded
5) the start screen Active Tiles and badges are updated.
6) the start screen appears to continuously cycle through some Active Tiles, un-displaying - then redisplaying the badges-- especially the mini pictures of people notifications

If the device has been asleep for a while, the notifications can stack up and there will be a noticeable delay as the active tiles are updated.

This seems a pretty good way to do this, with the exception of 6) above-- constantly retrieving pictures and refreshing the display seems like busy work and, likely, uses a bit of battery.

.
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post #295 of 334
10/13/10 at 2:30pm
I won't know for sure until I get to play with a few of these next month, but my initial reaction is that Microsoft has a superior UI on it's hands.

Their new commercials are dead on. Everyone has their faces stuck in their phones because it takes too long to get at the info you need.

For example...

On my iPhone 4, if I want to see my next appointment, I have to perform the following steps...

(1) Wake up my phone
(2) Unlock my phone
(3) Find my calendar
(4) Open my calendar

On WP7, all you have to do is wake up your phone and your next appt is on your lock screen.

And if I want to take a picture, I have to

(1) Wake up my phone
(2) Unlock my phone
(3) Find my camera app
(4) Open my camera app

But all WP7 phones have a dedicated camera button that bypasses security and gets you right where you need to be.

In many scenarios (like the ones above), WP7 provided 1-click solutions, which I think would be attractive to most people.

On paper, it would seems that the tiles/hubs metaphor is superior to the apps one, especially since the tiles deliver live updates, connecting me to my information faster.

I also liked the Windows Media Center and ATT u-verse integration. $10/mo gets me cable tv on my phone, which is much cheaper than Apple's iTunes a-la carte offerings.

I hate to say it, but for these reasons I think I may be selling my IP4 come November. Apple is way too restrictive with the content I can put on my device.
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post #296 of 334
10/13/10 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135 View Post

...Their new commercials are dead on. Everyone has their faces stuck in their phones because it takes too long to get at the info you need....

I don't think the interfaces have anything to do with it. People have interesting devices in their hand that satisfy a need to be engaged in many ways. They're looking for MORE to do with the device.

Seriously - I expect every wp7 user to be exactly as engrossed in their phone as they would be with iOS or Android. If you believe what you see in the ad you're Madison Avenue's dreamiest dream.
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post #297 of 334
10/13/10 at 3:23pm
How is U-Verse? It's not available in Pennsylvania yet.

Windows Phone 7 will have full U-Verse support, including DVR and streaming options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

-- ATT U-Verse (Internet and Cable TV)
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post #298 of 334
10/13/10 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

If you read my post, I approve of bringing notification messages to the lockscreen. I think Microsoft has gotten this right. And I am not alone in thinking that Apple should visit notifications as the thing to fix in iOS5.

But just for a second, visualise the WP7 lockscreen, with all those notifications, invites, photographs and quick dial tiles.


It is my understanding that what you show above is not the lock screen-- rather the start screen: after the screen has been unlocked, and/or the start button pressed.

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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– Alan Kay –
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post #299 of 334
10/13/10 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135 View Post

I won't know for sure until I get to play with a few of these next month, but my initial reaction is that Microsoft has a superior UI on it's hands.

Their new commercials are dead on. Everyone has their faces stuck in their phones because it takes too long to get at the info you need.

For example...

On my iPhone 4, if I want to see my next appointment, I have to perform the following steps...

(1) Wake up my phone
(2) Unlock my phone
(3) Find my calendar
(4) Open my calendar

On WP7, all you have to do is wake up your phone and your next appt is on your lock screen.

And if I want to take a picture, I have to

(1) Wake up my phone
(2) Unlock my phone
(3) Find my camera app
(4) Open my camera app

But all WP7 phones have a dedicated camera button that bypasses security and gets you right where you need to be.

In many scenarios (like the ones above), WP7 provided 1-click solutions, which I think would be attractive to most people.

On paper, it would seems that the tiles/hubs metaphor is superior to the apps one, especially since the tiles deliver live updates, connecting me to my information faster.

I also liked the Windows Media Center and ATT u-verse integration. $10/mo gets me cable tv on my phone, which is much cheaper than Apple's iTunes a-la carte offerings.

I hate to say it, but for these reasons I think I may be selling my IP4 come November. Apple is way too restrictive with the content I can put on my device.

No offense but this sounds it came out of some moron marketing blurb for ms. Apple is way too restrictive in content? Yeah sure ms won't restrict you to the 20 apps they already have available.
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post #300 of 334
10/13/10 at 4:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

This lock screen displayed, next appointment, weather, stocks, missed calls & messages, etc.

That's what I would like on the iPhone (or any phone) -- a customizable lock screen, without JailBreaking. This is even more desirable on an iPad.

That way, with a quick glance, you can determine if anything needs your attention... or the phone goes back in your pocket.

Less stop and stare. More glance and go?


I'm in two minds about this. Some days I think that Apple will definitely start copying WP7 features into iOS then other days I think that since a lot of features would look like they are hacked-on there is no way Apple would attempt it.

Maybe features that can be copied in isolation will be added (like Game Center, the lock screen info would work as would a built in basic iWork app) and features that would require a complete iOS overhaul (information hubs, live tiles, 3rd party service integration etc) will be left out.
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post #301 of 334
10/13/10 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

The ads don't need to make sense.

Look at the entire "I'm a Mac" ad campaign, none of them made a great amount of sense. The idea was that if you are overweight, old, ugly, dull and/or stupid you own a PC, and if you are sexy, young, cool, creative and/or smart you own a Mac. A lot of people still believe this, such was the strength of the campaign.

Most advertising is like this. Flip through the first 20 pages of a womans magazine and I bet you won't come across any tech specs or descriptions of why product X is better than product Y just a whole lot of "look at all of the beautiful famous people using our product".

But even from that stand point it's not any good in being the ad in said magazine or tv set that you are going to stick to. Btw, you are wrong on the initial argument, even if an ad is an off beat or showing some pure nonsensical fiction, it still has to make sense to the product it refers to. A battery add can have flying freeking bunnies running on batteries but the point it's making, ie are batteries will last longer, is a valid one, ms's point their phone will save them from phonemania on the merits of the product itself is false for very logical reasons (and not by virtue of it even good or bad), the reason being that another smart phone CANT stop you from phone addiction. And people do look for the purpose of the add, and gauge if it could be true or not. If for example my underlying message is some preposterous claim for my product, my batteries will run forever on your devices, people will discard the add no matter how good.


It's just a stupid idea, stupid in it's inception, and very averagely done in visuals. I said before that the Seinfeld Gates one with the shoes and the bang bus ones with laptohunters are masterpieces compared to this one. It's only stupidest to their by far arch stupider campaign of the "i am a pc ads". Taking a competitor that has no more than 5-6 worlwide sales, and BASING their add on a concept by this tiny competitor, the "i am a mac", thus legitimizing apple's superiority, in that no only do you trail them and copy their moto, but you aknoledge them as a force to be reckoned with while they only have 6% of the pie.
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post #302 of 334
10/13/10 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135 View Post

I won't know for sure until I get to play with a few of these next month, but my initial reaction is that Microsoft has a superior UI on it's hands.

Their new commercials are dead on. Everyone has their faces stuck in their phones because it takes too long to get at the info you need.

For example...

On my iPhone 4, if I want to see my next appointment, I have to perform the following steps...

(1) Wake up my phone
(2) Unlock my phone
(3) Find my calendar
(4) Open my calendar

On WP7, all you have to do is wake up your phone and your next appt is on your lock screen.

And if I want to take a picture, I have to

(1) Wake up my phone
(2) Unlock my phone
(3) Find my camera app
(4) Open my camera app

But all WP7 phones have a dedicated camera button that bypasses security and gets you right where you need to be.

In many scenarios (like the ones above), WP7 provided 1-click solutions, which I think would be attractive to most people.

On paper, it would seems that the tiles/hubs metaphor is superior to the apps one, especially since the tiles deliver live updates, connecting me to my information faster.

I also liked the Windows Media Center and ATT u-verse integration. $10/mo gets me cable tv on my phone, which is much cheaper than Apple's iTunes a-la carte offerings.

I hate to say it, but for these reasons I think I may be selling my IP4 come November. Apple is way too restrictive with the content I can put on my device.

I think you are confusing (or combining) the WP7 lock screen with the home screen. Here are an Apple Lockscreen and a WP7 Lockscreen side by side.



There is a bit more information on the WP7 Lock Screen, but not much.

Go to the video at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gngr3...layer_embedded

At about 1:25 you will see the comparison of home screens (after you've unlocked the phones or pressed the WP7 Start buttton).

If there has been a lot of activity, since you last hit the start button, there will be a noticeable delay while the WP7 badges/tiles are updated. I think that this is acceptable, and preferable to constantly updating while the phone is asleep.


Then you bring up the current information by scrolling and tapping the desired tile-- which may drill-down to 1 or more apps to display the actual detailed info.

If you have a lot of tiles, you need to do a bit of scrolling to get to the tile you want. Then, you tap a tile for more detail. When you exit the app/tile you are returned to the top of the tile list instead of where you were.


Based on this video I did a comparison of how you you navigate for apps/info on the iPhone 4 and WP7
platforms. The WP7 implementation is not quite as elegant as it appears at first glance.


See the comparison here:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=176


Finally, ATT U-Verse is available for the iPhone.

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #303 of 334
10/13/10 at 4:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

That's why I don't drive. I can't possibly choose which car to buy!

I wish somebody made just one model. That would be the manufacturer for me.

C'mon. Don't be absurd.

That is an idiotic comment, there really isn't that much a need for 9 models with the same basic os, well there's a damn big need for small cars vs. estates vs. cargo ones vs. luxury ones etc. You differentiate for a purpose, not to segregate and balkanize your own market! And I am being absurd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Sounds like you don't really understand advertising. That's cool, don't stress on it.

Sorry but you are a jackass, people write a few paragraphs of arguments against what you said, your response is basically you are idiots and you don't know s... Why bother posting in the first place man? Post in a blog you don't want people to reply.
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post #304 of 334
10/13/10 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think you are confusing (or combining) the WP7 lock screen with the home screen(...)

See the comparison here:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=176

.

Lol, I for a moment there I though ms did bring something to the table for a change, even a minor tweak, turns out the lock screen showa an almost exact replica of the apple model (which btw could use this addition, as we've said.). So basically whatever little ground in these interfaces is left for the time being, it's sure isn't ms who is going to cover it.
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post #305 of 334
10/13/10 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Less stop and stare. More glance and go?


I'm in two minds about this. Some days I think that Apple will definitely start copying WP7 features into iOS then other days I think that since a lot of features would look like they are hacked-on there is no way Apple would attempt it.

Maybe features that can be copied in isolation will be added (like Game Center, the lock screen info would work as would a built in basic iWork app) and features that would require a complete iOS overhaul (information hubs, live tiles, 3rd party service integration etc) will be left out.

Exactly!

I want to grab my phone, awaken it, and see if anything needs my attention-- or back in my pocket it goes.

I don't really care who they copy, but Apple needs a customizable, activity-triggered lock screen!

I like the Live Tiles concept-- but it needs work (see my other post in this thread:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=176

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #306 of 334
10/13/10 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

It is my understanding that what you show above is not the lock screen-- rather the start screen: after the screen has been unlocked, and/or the start button pressed.

.

Dick, I think apple will bring that functionality very soon and i think that's why certain iphone apple apps are conspicuously missing from the ipad. They are going to be widgets.

Btw, I admire apple's steady uncomplicated way of developing and adding ui features. I haven't read anyone say this before but it's not the interface itself for me that's so revolutionary, it's its INTRODUCTION and development so as to be very simple to use without being too technical and then gradually offering more options that won't confuse the users (as they would have had them been pilled on on top of the other from the beginning) and that they'l build on their knowledge of previous usage patterns.

I see nothing but sheer brilliance in their pacing of the releases and how they thought which point would be A and when they should go to B and C. I find the software itself just "great", but I find the vision of it's gradual evolution masterful.
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post #307 of 334
10/13/10 at 6:32pm
Remember that Apple hired the guy that designed WebOS's notification system a few months ago.

I think most of us agree that iOS needs some improvement in the notifications area, and it makes sense that any such improvements would involve either the home screen or a current notifications screen no more than one swipe away (the screen above the home screen is available, for instance.

Apple's recent hire suggests they see room for improvement as well, and are working on it. Of course, no matter how they implement it there are some here who will claim that they are "copying" either MS or Android. You know, the same people who bristle at the idea that the fact that most every smart phone on the market now looks more or less like the iPhone is anything more than the inevitable working out of obvious progress.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #308 of 334
10/13/10 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

A battery add can have flying freeking bunnies running on batteries but the point it's making, ie are batteries will last longer, is a valid one, ms's point their phone will save them from phonemania on the merits of the product itself is false for very logical reasons (and not by virtue of it even good or bad), the reason being that another smart phone CANT stop you from phone addiction. And people do look for the purpose of the add, and gauge if it could be true or not. If for example my underlying message is some preposterous claim for my product, my batteries will run forever on your devices, people will discard the add no matter how good.

These points were addressed in subsequent posts.
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post #309 of 334
10/13/10 at 11:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Btw, I admire apple's steady uncomplicated way of developing and adding ui features. I haven't read anyone say this before but it's not the interface itself for me that's so revolutionary, it's its INTRODUCTION and development so as to be very simple to use without being too technical and then gradually offering more options that won't confuse the users (as they would have had them been pilled on on top of the other from the beginning) and that they'l build on their knowledge of previous usage patterns.


You may not mean it, but you make Apple customers sound like children at best, or idiots at worst. You characterize customers as easily confused by features and options, as if their limited intellects will be overwhelmed.

This is, I think, part of your beef against 9 models, which actually is not the case. Only certain phones will be on certain carriers, so the real choice is 2-3 phones, which you may still feel is overwhelming to people.
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post #310 of 334
10/14/10 at 1:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

It is my understanding that what you show above is not the lock screen-- rather the start screen: after the screen has been unlocked, and/or the start button pressed.

I think you may be right.
Which means all this information is one level further down than I thought.

C.
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post #311 of 334
10/14/10 at 1:08am
http://gdgt.com/discuss/seven-though...phone-7-1-aqu/

I thought point 3 was quite revealing.
Quote:
3. The OS itself is pretty great. It has the polish that Android lacks so far, and has the same kind of thoughtfulness and ease-of-use that weve come to expect from iOS. There are some glaring omissions -- multitasking and cut-and-paste come to mind -- but the team that built WP7 got lots of little details right, and its those details that go a long way towards an exceptional user experience. One caveat: WP7 requires plenty of swiping and scrolling to get around, and its conceivable that a lot of users might not love that about it.

Peter is enthusiastic about the attention to detail and the level of polish.
But seems less convinced about the speed of getting to stuff.

C.
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post #312 of 334
10/14/10 at 2:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Yeah sure ms won't restrict you to the 20 apps they already have available.


Well, I have been thinking about this app issue, and MS is either brilliant, or way off course.

As a precursor, games are not apps.

Apple introduced us to the concept of "There's an app for that." But when you think about it, the job of some (not all) Apps is to cover holes that the OS itself cannot perform.

You want to find directions, there is an app for that, Google maps, because the iOS doesn't do mapping.

You want to share files, there is an App for that - drop box.
You want to take notes there is an app for that - Evernote
You want to collaborate on docs, there is an App for that - Google Docs

OTOH, MS is, in part, trying to design a system where some/many apps are not needed because they are built into the OS - e.g., Bing, Sharepoint, Onenote, Office, the whole MS Live services (which IMO are better than Google's).

So, this locks out certain segments of the developer population which may limit its appeal.

But in a way, WP7 offers a far more tightly integrated and unified ecosystem than Apple does.

Some may like this, and some may not.
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post #313 of 334
10/14/10 at 2:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

Apple introduced us to the concept of "There's an app for that." But when you think about it, the job of some (not all) Apps is to cover holes that the OS itself cannot perform.

You want to find directions, there is an app for that, Google maps, because the iOS doesn't do mapping.

I think there is some imprecise thinking in your post.

iOS is rich in APIs which make the device location (and orientation) aware. And out of the box - Apple provides an application which exploits those APIs and presents them as the Google map application. But the exact same API is used by different apps. The map data in the Twitter App for example uses the OS to provide map data customised for that application.

Windows Phone 7 does exactly the same. An application is launched which displays map info and exploits the location services in the OS.

The only real difference is how the user finds and launches these. The Apple model presents a matrix of application icons - which can be organised by the user to suit their needs. Each icon equates to an application. While the Windows model presents a selection of activity centric hubs - off which are located applications which relate to the theme of the hub.

The two approaches are equivalent ways of doing the same thing. The only relevant question is which method gets you the answers faster, and which is the easiest to understand.

So while I like the tidiness of having this top-level hierarchy. I am not sure how beneficial it is. Because a lot of stuff just does not fit into hub-hierarchies. Is Email a social activity in the People Hub or an Office Hub activity? Would the Twitter app be in the People Hub - or if it a bought app, should I head to the marketplace hub? The WP7 user would have to learn and remember that stuff. The iPhone user has all the functionality presented at the top layer. The only hierarchies are user-created folders.

Some of the work on hubs is clearly a good idea. Having Facebook integration into contacts is smart. But I personally hate Facebook, and I use Twitter for everything. But MS is hardwired into Facebook, and my preference is not one that MS agrees with.

I do think MS deserves a lot of credit for doing something different. Just not convinced that it is a radically better way of solving these problems.

C.
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post #314 of 334
10/14/10 at 5:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Having Facebook integration into contacts is smart. But I personally hate Facebook, and I use Twitter for everything. But MS is hardwired into Facebook, and my preference is not one that MS agrees with.

I do think MS deserves a lot of credit for doing something different. Just not convinced that it is a radically better way of solving these problems.

The OS has been designed from the ground up to be a data aggregation point. It's actually on the cutting edge of the next web evolution. That said I'm not entirely convinced that WP7 offers a radically better way of solving these problems either.

The concepts are certainly right (and I think other mobile OS's will follow) I'm just not sure the execution is correct.

In any case Facebook is just the first of many 3rd party services to come.

Look at Windows Live for a 3rd party service road map. (Facebook, Youtube, MySpace, WordPress, LinkedIn, Flickr, Photobucket, Hulu, Flixster, Digg, StumbleUpon, Blogger, Dailymotion, TypePad, Daum, Last.fm, LiveJournal, CNET, Break.com, SlideShare, Goodreads, BuddyTV.com, Multiply, iLike, Netlog, Yelp, wow.ya.ru, XING, Dada)

I've got no idea why they decided to snub Twitter though. It seems kind of stupid unless they have a damn good reason.
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post #315 of 334
10/14/10 at 5:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I've got no idea why they decided to snub Twitter though. It seems kind of stupid unless they have a damn good reason.

Twitter is not like Facebook. @DrSamuelJohnson is not an actual friend of mine. (While some other of my Twitter contacts are.) So the people database metaphor that MS has adopted does not map well to Twitter.

This is my concern about the hubs, there's an imposed top-level-heirarchy and am suspect that not everyone will agree that the WP7 hard-wired layout fits their usage patterns.

But I *am* happy that MS is trying to innovate.

My guess is that Apple's response will be technology from Siri. And things could get really interesting.

C.
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post #316 of 334
10/14/10 at 5:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

The OS has been designed from the ground up to be a data aggregation point. It's actually on the cutting edge of the next web evolution. That said I'm not entirely convinced that WP7 offers a radically better way of solving these problems either.

The concepts are certainly right (and I think other mobile OS's will follow) I'm just not sure the execution is correct.

In any case Facebook is just the first of many 3rd party services to come.

Look at Windows Live for a 3rd party service road map. (Facebook, Youtube, MySpace, WordPress, LinkedIn, Flickr, Photobucket, Hulu, Flixster, Digg, StumbleUpon, Blogger, Dailymotion, TypePad, Daum, Last.fm, LiveJournal, CNET, Break.com, SlideShare, Goodreads, BuddyTV.com, Multiply, iLike, Netlog, Yelp, wow.ya.ru, XING, Dada)

I've got no idea why they decided to snub Twitter though. It seems kind of stupid unless they have a damn good reason.

I agree with this!

The Active Tiles/hub concept is a good concept-- a step forward in usability.

It appears to be well implemented -- trading off "constant updates" for "update when awake" to conserve battery. As technology improves, or user needs dictate, MS can allow some degree of "constant updates".

It will be interesting to see how users setup their tiles-- how many tiles and content of each. I suspect. that a kind of "natural selection" will occur and most uses will evolve to 5-10 tiles -- with some tiles acting like folders (rather than notification aggregators).

In some ways, it's like the folders concept on iOS-- It's better than not having folders, but it's not quite right (the way it's implemented).

I also think MS will add some navigation improvements:
-- App Search
-- Folders
-- Return to where you were on app exit
-- fast app (task) switching

Some of my thoughts on UI elements:
-- it doesn't mater who invented it
-- it doesn't matter who copies who
-- it does matter how it is implemented
-- it does matter how it "fits in" with other elements

If a less than perfect execution of Active Tiles, Desktop, Folders, multitasking... moves the ball forward, I am in favor of trying it!

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #317 of 334
10/14/10 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Twitter is not like Facebook. @DrSamuelJohnson is not an actual friend of mine. (While some other of my Twitter contacts are.) So the people database metaphor that MS has adopted does not map well to Twitter.

This is my concern about the hubs, there's an imposed top-level-heirarchy and am suspect that not everyone will agree that the WP7 hard-wired layout fits their usage patterns.

But I *am* happy that MS is trying to innovate.

My guess is that Apple's response will be technology from Siri. And things could get really interesting.

C.

I am not a big user of any of the social apps.

As a friend's father answered when she asked him why he wasn't "following" her -- "I'm just not inerested in everything you do!"

But, I do think the idea of an aggregator is useful if it can be tailored (filtered) to, say:
-- direct messages
-- certain people
-- certain types of activity e.g. Travel milestones

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #318 of 334
10/14/10 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I am not a big user of any of the social apps.
.

The way I use Twitter is like some people use RSS. It delivers a feed of reliably and consistently interesting information.

For me it's more "News" than "Social". But there isn't a News hub on WP7. It's that rigidity I am skeptical about.

@carniphage
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post #319 of 334
10/14/10 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The way I use Twitter is like some people use RSS. It delivers a feed of reliably and consistently interesting information.

That's mostly how I use twitter. I almost don't post there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I only get single alerts. It might have something to do with being sync'd to Exchange?

I'd say probably yes, the protocol might be limited. You might find preferences somewhere in Exchange to change the alert lead time. The iPhone allows two alerts and you can set them at a wide range of lead time.

It would be nice if there was a way to make the lock screen today's event calendar.
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post #320 of 334
10/14/10 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The way I use Twitter is like some people use RSS. It delivers a feed of reliably and consistently interesting information.

For me it's more "News" than "Social". But there isn't a News hub on WP7. It's that rigidity I am skeptical about.

@carniphage

It might be my age but I am Dick on this one. I understand Facebook but do not use it. Twitter I do not really get for 99% of he time. Yes it was great for Iran but for most of the time I do not see the point as I am no interested in the minutes of people's thoughts or lives. To me it just seems largely narcissistic of hey look at me.

If I need to let my friends and family know something I send an email text or god forbid I make a phone call. That is just me though
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