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US Fundie Charity Bribing Addicts to be Sterilised in UK

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Drug addicts across the UK are being offered money to be sterilised by an American charity.

Project Prevention is offering to pay £200 to any drug user in London, Glasgow, Bristol, Leicester and parts of Wales who agrees to be operated on.

The first person in the UK to accept the cash is drug addict "John" from Leicester who says he "should never be a father".

Link

Some questions:

1) Why should he never be a father? Who told him this? Is it true? Why should he not be one - and why can he not be helped to get his life back on track?

2) Why should Fundamentalist Xian Organizations be allowed to operate internationally under the guise of charities to spread their agenda?

3) Is the agenda itself not something which is unacceptable in the 21st century? Basically it is a form of Eugenics.

Is this not more evidence of a frightening return to the far-right ideology becoming acceptable to the masses? That the dark spectre which haunts Europe has returned?

Thoughts?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Link

Some questions:

1) Why should he never be a father? Who told him this? Is it true? Why should he not be one - and why can he not be helped to get his life back on track?

2) Why should Fundamentalist Xian Organizations be allowed to operate internationally under the guise of charities to spread their agenda?

3) Is the agenda itself not something which is unacceptable in the 21st century? Basically it is a form of Eugenics.

Is this not more evidence of a frightening return to the far-right ideology becoming acceptable to the masses? That the dark spectre which haunts Europe has returned?

Thoughts?

Yeah, look. Right wing American Christians actually funding a program of eugenics.

I expect jazzguru to be apoplectic about this because eugenics is really bad. When the Democrats lose badly they will slip in to psychosis and start talking about eugenics, and...

Oh wait. It's right wing American Christians actively funding a program of eugenics today, in my city. So jazzguru will have a defence. They can't be "psychotic". They are right wing American Christians. He'll have something to make it OK when it's right wing American Christians funding a program of eugenics. What have you got, jazzguru? Let's hear it.
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Yeah, look. Right wing American Christians actually funding a program of eugenics.

I expect jazzguru to be apoplectic about this because eugenics is really bad.

Oh wait. It's right wing American Christians actively funding a program of eugenic today, in my city. So jazzguru will have a defence. He'll have something to make it OK when it's right wing American Christians funding a program of eugenics. What have you got, jazzguru? Let's hear it.

Another thing about it is the amount paid to those who accept the sterilization: 200 GBP.

This is nothing. It's patronising and demeaning.

Also it focusses on the poor. There are plenty of drug-takers who do not need 200 - not all drug-takers are poor....in fact most Cocaine and Heroin users I've known have been very wealthy.

So this is targeted at a certain class also. It has nothing to do with drug-users in a universal sense as it is class-based and hence it is not true that it is trying to help anyone at all.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 19
"As a libertarian, I must defend the right of right wing American Christians to fund and implement any social program they please. They are, after all, not Democrats. That would be eugenics."

"It's only junkies."

"It's not really eugenics. It's just making sure they can't have children and bring up other junkies. We need to take junkies out of the gene pool."

"It is tough love. It is, after all, their fault."

Others?
post #5 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Also it focusses on the poor. There are plenty of drug-takers who do not need 200 - not all drug-takers are poor....in fact most Cocaine and Heroin users I've known have been very wealthy.

This is a very good point. This isn't going to affect people who can afford their addictions. Only the people in the most trouble.

The junkies where I live would walk over the broken bones of their nearest family to get £200 for junk. I don't like this idea.
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

"As a libertarian, I must defend the right of right wing American Christians to fund and implement any social program they please. They are, after all, not Democrats. That would be eugenics."

"It's only junkies."

Others?

They do alcoholics too.

Quote:
The main objective of Project Prevention is public awareness to the problem of addicts/alcoholics exposing their unborn child to drugs during pregnancy.

Project Prevention seeks to reduce the burden of this social problem on taxpayers, trim down social worker caseloads, and alleviate from our clients the burden of having children that will potentially be taken away.

Clients???

This is their Website - pretty shocking stuff.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Link

Some questions:

1) Why should he never be a father? Who told him this? Is it true? Why should he not be one - and why can he not be helped to get his life back on track?

No one told him this. Based on his actions a choice was offered and he agreed with exercising that choice. Acceptance of the money in no form or fashion prevents him from getting his life back in order nor does it prevent other government or charitable organizations from providing him help in any number of areas. It doesn't even prevent you from funding a vasectomy reversal charity.
Quote:
2) Why should Fundamentalist Xian Organizations be allowed to operate internationally under the guise of charities to spread their agenda?

Why should they be excluded?
Quote:
3) Is the agenda itself not something which is unacceptable in the 21st century? Basically it is a form of Eugenics.

If by basically you mean not at all. Why do your own biases alter entire word definitions?
Quote:
Is this not more evidence of a frightening return to the far-right ideology becoming acceptable to the masses? That the dark spectre which haunts Europe has returned?

Thoughts?

Perhaps more of the dole, several thousand more cameras and a larger carbon tax would fix it.

Just tell yourself that this is to save the planet and that the kid would have been a greedy consumer of earth's precious resources and it will become all fine in your mind. Better still, tell yourself the kid would have been Xian or a "fundie" or perhaps a "teabagger" and then you'll probably not only applaud the move, you might even knife John for good measure.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

and then you'll probably not only applaud the move, you might even knife John for good measure.

In the unlikely event that did happen - I believe John is one of the social underclass and unlikely to be Right-Wing enough for me to attack him - I can't see why you'd find it problematic.

After all, by your own logic, you're free to set up a knife-removal service.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #9 of 19
Quote:
Sheather warns, Harris's actions raise serious ethical issues.
Quote:
"Even Project Prevention admits the money will almost always go to feed the addict's habit,

" he notes.

Quote:
"Would the addiction render consent invalid? Is the payment a coercive means of getting people to agree to a sterilisation they would otherwise not contemplate?"

Since it was founded in 1994, Project Prevention has paid 3,388 people in the US to be sterilised or to take long-term contraception measures. Of these, 1,059 have chosen Depo-Provera, a long-term injectable contraceptive; 1,260 chose tubal ligation sterilisation while the remainder have opted for coils or implants. Just under 50 men have had vasectomies.

In the US, addicts are offered up to $300 (£200) for sterilisation. The charity states its objective is
Quote:
"to reduce the burden of this social problem on taxpayers, trim down social worker caseloads, and alleviate from our clients the burden of having children that will potentially be taken away

."

Quote:
Martin Barnes, chief executive of DrugScope, an independent organisation that examines drug issues, accused Project Prevention of applying what could be
Quote:
"a simplistic, moralistic and exploitative approach to addressing the difficult and complex issue of drug use and pregnancy".

He added:
Quote:
"The welfare of children is paramount, but using cash incentives to often poor and vulnerable women is highly questionable. For many women with drug problems, the chance to become a mother can be life-changing and a powerful motivation to seek help for their addiction and other problems in their lives."

He warned that legitimising Project Prevention could have significant repercussions.
Quote:
"Where should the line be drawn? Women who drink? Women who smoke? Women with mental health problems? Women who themselves have been the victim of abuse?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...ise-addicts-uk

Project Prevention Objectives

Quote:
The main objective of Project Prevention is public awareness to the problem of addicts/alcoholics exposing their unborn child to drugs during pregnancy.

Project Prevention seeks to reduce the burden of this social problem on taxpayers, trim down social worker caseloads, and alleviate from our clients the burden of having children that will potentially be taken away.

Unlike incarceration, Project Prevention extremely cost effective and does not punish the participants.

We seek and welcome alliances with all sectors of our communities including drug treatment programs, hospitals, social service departments, among others, and have established such contacts throughout the United States.

Project Prevention does not have the resources to combat the national problems of poverty, housing, nutrition, education and rehabilitation services. Those resources we do have are spent to PREVENT a problem for $300 rather than paying millions after it happens in cost to care for a potentially damaged child.

http://www.projectprevention.org/objectives/
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #10 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

In the unlikely event that did happen - I believe John is one of the social underclass and unlikely to be Right-Wing enough for me to attack him - I can't see why you'd find it problematic.

After all, by your own logic, you're free to set up a knife-removal service.

But by your logic, I'm not. See by your logic, the outcome isn't important, only the motives of the person rendering that action. Thus if I wanted to pay people not to reproduce to avoid an excessive carbon footprint and a Malthusian disaster, you'd be all for it.

Also isn't this part of abortion reasoning as well? Shouldn't all babies be wanted, desired, and raised only in homes in which they will be properly loved and cared for?

The only point raised by this angle is where the reproduction is stopped. Those "fundies" as you call them don't like it being stopped after conception so they are paying to stop it before. Those agnostic or atheistic types don't mind it happening after reproduction so they are paying to stop it after.

If one is eugenics then "basically" so is the other.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

1) Why should he never be a father? Who told him this? Is it true? Why should he not be one - and why can he not be helped to get his life back on track?

I think those are questions only John can answer. He's the one who sought out the procedure. It was not forced upon him.

Quote:
2) Why should Fundamentalist Xian Organizations be allowed to operate internationally under the guise of charities to spread their agenda?

Why shouldn't "Fundamentalist Xian Organizations" be allowed to operate internationally "under the guise of charities" to "spread their agenda"?

Quote:
3) Is the agenda itself not something which is unacceptable in the 21st century? Basically it is a form of Eugenics.

Is birth control a form of eugenics?

Quote:
Is this not more evidence of a frightening return to the far-right ideology becoming acceptable to the masses? That the dark spectre which haunts Europe has returned?

No, it is not.

Quote:
Thoughts?

Who are you or I to tell someone they cannot use birth control if that is their desire?

It's a contract willingly entered into by 2 parties which does not harm anyone else's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (as far as I am aware). If the sterilizations were being forced upon them, it would be a different matter entirely.

I must admit, I am fascinated by the PO "progressives'" apparent dismay with this. If it had been an organization like Planned Parenthood running such a program, would you feel the same way?

In my observations, "progressives" tend to see humanity as a blight, and generally support measures such as this to promote population control. And if you're going to advocate population control, why not advocate eugenics along with it to weed out the "riffraff" and the "scum" of humanity in the process?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #12 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

But by your logic, I'm not. See by your logic, the outcome isn't important, only the motives of the person rendering that action.

This doesn't make sense.... you claim that the outcome is not important from my pov yet later in your post you claim I would be 'all for' something if it delivered a specific outcome.

It's illogical.

Quote:
Thus if I wanted to pay people not to reproduce to avoid an excessive carbon footprint and a Malthusian disaster, you'd be all for it.

So I DO care about outcomes????

Quote:
Also isn't this part of abortion reasoning as well? Shouldn't all babies be wanted, desired, and raised only in homes in which they will be properly loved and cared for?

This makes no sense.

Clearly the reasoning of this person paying the addicts is the same position as the anti-abortionists which she is undoubtedly a subscriber to.

But it raises a key point - albeit unwittingly; it seems that these people only REALLY care, perhaps wrong word, let's say 'focus', only really focus on the baby.

I believe this is because, to them, in some warped fundie-thinking, the baby is somehow 'an innocent'. That is to say not like the scumbag mother who had sex or the sinning junkie destined to hell.

They don't care about real people at all. A baby is a blank canvas which they can project their beliefs onto and quite possibly mold or brainwash....but the mother, the destitute reduced to drugs, the raped teenager......they can go to hell. Literally they hope.

Quote:
The only point raised by this angle is where the reproduction is stopped. Those "fundies" as you call them don't like it being stopped after conception so they are paying to stop it before.

You speak truth for once. A similar experiment of 'stopping undesirable outcomes' was tried before last century I believe.

But the point is not 'where it is stopped' at all. It is why do some people think they have the right to stop things and impose their will on others who just want to live their lives?

It's a question you'd be better placed to answer than me but I'm not holding my breath...

Quote:
Those agnostic or atheistic types don't mind it happening after reproduction so they are paying to stop it after.

It's about choices Trumpy.....you just don't get that do you?

It's odd but it's always the Right who champion choice and yet always the Right who try to curtail it.

Quote:
If one is eugenics then "basically" so is the other.

Actually no. Because one is random and the result of a choice - a choice you may not wish to allow but a choice nonetheless - and the other is not a choice but someone imposing their beliefs on another person.

It is also class-based.

If not then why not pay the equivalent to rich junkies on a sliding scale? Fiar enough - 200 to John but what about Tabitha Hortense Ponsonby-Smythe - 200 is lunch to her..... put your money where your mouth is and pay her what the Right usually would argue she is worth.

Bankers in the City - they can snort enough Charlie of a lunchtime to sink the Bismarck and their bonuses buy more than a £10 bag...how about doshing them out £250,000 to do it.

Won't happen.

Because it's class based.

It's not about drugs, addiction or dependency.

It's about preying on the weak and downtrodden of society as a precursor to 'saving their souls' or getting brownie points with the Man Upstairs.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #13 of 19
What Harris couldn't get by legislation, she got by setting up the program to pay the addicts not to have children.

Quote:
Director and Founder- Barbara Harris: Former foster parent, PTA member, founded interracial organization in 1992, actively recruits foster parents, adoptive parent, author of assembly Bill 2614 CA, speaker at private organizations/groups in regards to drug addicted babies.

http://www.projectprevention.org/board-of-directors/

Quote:
BILL NUMBER: AB 2614\tINTRODUCED
\tBILL TEXT


INTRODUCED BY Assembly Member Hawkins

FEBRUARY 21, 1996

An act to add Chapter 2.3 (commencing with Section 273.50) to
Title 9 of Part 1 of the Penal Code, relating to crimes.


\tLEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST


AB 2614, as introduced, Hawkins. Crime: prenatal child neglect.
Existing law proscribing child abuse does not proscribe substance
abuse during pregnancy.
This bill would create the crime of prenatal child neglect and
would provide that, except as specified, a person is guilty of
prenatal child neglect, punishable as a misdemeanor or felony as
specified, if the person knowingly uses a specified controlled
substance at a time when the person knows or reasonably should know
that she is pregnant and the use of that controlled substance results
in the child with whom the woman is pregnant being drug-exposed at
birth, as defined.
The bill would provide that specified defendants may, in lieu of
imprisonment and as a condition of probation, request to participate
in specified programs.
The bill would impose a state-mandated local
program upon local governments by creating a new crime and by
imposing new duties on probation officers.
The California Constitution requires the state to reimburse local
agencies and school districts for certain costs mandated by the
state. Statutory provisions establish procedures for making that
reimbursement, including the creation of a State Mandates Claims Fund
to pay the costs of mandates that do not exceed $1,000,000 statewide
and other procedures for claims whose statewide costs exceed
$1,000,000.
This bill would provide that with regard to certain mandates no
reimbursement is required by this act for a specified reason.
With regard to any other mandates, this bill would provide that,
if the Commission on State Mandates determines that the bill contains
costs so mandated by the state, reimbursement for those costs shall
be made pursuant to the statutory provisions noted above.

Quote:

(2) Upon the request of a person described in subparagraph (A) or
(C) of paragraph (1), the court, in lieu of imposing a term of
imprisonment, may suspend the execution of the term and instead place
that person on probation under at least one of the following terms
of probation:

....(B) Participation in a contraceptive program designated by the
probation officer. Under the contraceptive program, the defendant
shall be required to submit to medical procedures for the
implantation of a hormonal implantation birth control device that is
approved by the federal Food and Drug Administration.[/B] If the
hormonal implantation birth control device is not medically indicated
or recommended for the defendant, the defendant shall participate in
another specified program of contraception that is medically
indicated or recommended for her. If the defendant demonstrates to
the sentencing court that her sincerely held religious beliefs and
practices counsel against the use of contraception, the defendant
shall participate in programs, designated by the probation officer,
that are designed to improve parenting skills and prevent the use of
alcohol or controlled substances, including, but not limited to, any
program consistent with the intent of this chapter that has been
established under Division 9.7 (commencing with Section 10900) of the
Health and Safety Code (Perinatal Substance Abuse), Chapter 2
(commencing with Section 11757.50) of Part 1 of Division 10.5 of the
Health and Safety Code (Alcohol and Drug Affected Mothers and Infants
Act of 1990), or Chapter 4.8 (commencing with Section 1174) of Title
7 of Part 2 of this code (Pregnant and Parenting Women's Alternative
Sentencing Program Act)......

(3) Upon the request of a person described in subparagraph (B) or
(D) of paragraph (1), the court, in lieu of imposing a term of
imprisonment, may suspend the execution of the term and instead place
that person on probation under all of the following terms of
probation:

.....(B)Participation in a contraceptive program designated by the
probation officer and in drug and alcohol testing [/B]in accordance with
Section 1203.1ab.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/95-96/...ntroduced.html

The Bill was eventually amended and removed the provisions regarding contraceptives. The Bill passed the Assembly by a vote of 40 Ayes 35 Noes. Apparently it was not picked up by the State Senate and the Bill died.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #14 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I think those are questions only John can answer. He's the one who sought out the procedure. It was not forced upon him.

I would argue it was.

A need was created by his life circumstances and this 'solution' arose to 'fill the need'.

But that need was created.

Quote:
Why shouldn't "Fundamentalist Xian Organizations" be allowed to operate internationally "under the guise of charities" to "spread their agenda"?

How many reasons do you want?

Because they spread lies, illogic and irrationality?

Because they do not care about the 'victim' but only 'spreading the word'?

Because they are dragging us back to the dark age?

Because they are invariably Right-wing political bigots who sow disharmony and strife?

Quote:
Is birth control a form of eugenics?

Nope.

Quote:
Who are you or I to tell someone they cannot use birth control if that is their desire?

Can't answer that...it's not something I would do....if it's something you would do you should answer.

Quote:
It's a contract willingly entered into by 2 parties which does not harm anyone else's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (as far as I am aware). If the sterilizations were being forced upon them, it would be a different matter entirely.

Wrong.

It is a thin edge of a wedge.

Quote:
I must admit, I am fascinated by the PO "progressives'" apparent dismay with this. If it had been an organization like Planned Parenthood running such a program, would you feel the same way?

Don't know what Planned Parenthood is. If the Left are Progressives does that make the Right Regressives?

Quote:
In my observations, "progressives" tend to see humanity as a blight,

You seem to have very limited experience....that's kind of sad.

Quote:
and generally support measures such as this to promote population control. And if you're going to advocate population control, why not advocate eugenics along with it to weed out the "riffraff" and the "scum" of humanity in the process?

I don't know any Left-wing thinkers who would subscribe to that - but that's because it's essentially a Right-wing ideology - and as such is, in some way, inhumane and lacking compassion.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #15 of 19
Seg! First you say:

Quote:
Don't know what Planned Parenthood is.

And 2 sentences later you said:

Quote:
You seem to have very limited experience....that's kind of sad.

Hilarious stuff, my friend. Wait...was that unintentional?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Seg! First you say:

And 2 sentences later you said:

Hilarious stuff, my friend. Wait...was that unintentional?

Difficult to say what you are gleaning from my post so cannot say.

As to my actual meaning it was definitely intentional.

You said this:

Quote:
If it had been an organization like Planned Parenthood running such a program, would you feel the same way?

To which I answered that I could not form a judgement as I did not know what the organization referred to is and not being prone to making sweeping value-laden judgements.

Seems pretty clear.

Then you say this:

Quote:
In my observations, "progressives" tend to see humanity as a blight,

To which I reply that if that is all you know of progressives then your experience must be limited.

Somehow at some indeterminate point after this you found some inextricable link between these two statements....

Seems odd.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

To which I answered that I could not form a judgement as I did not know what the organization referred to is and not being prone to making sweeping value-laden judgements.

You are on a roll, today.

I'm done with this thread.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #18 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You are on a roll, today.

I'm done with this thread.

We'll miss you but we'll try to soldier on.

It's going to be tough and the intellectual levels of the dialectic are going to take a massive hit but we'll get try to over it. We just need time....a lot of time...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This doesn't make sense.... you claim that the outcome is not important from my pov yet later in your post you claim I would be 'all for' something if it delivered a specific outcome.

It's illogical.

So I DO care about outcomes????

This is rather interesting. These outcomes haven't happened Seg. There was not Malthusian disaster. That's the point and you've proven it perfectly. To you, then intent and the outcome are literally the same. Just as there has been no climate disaster as well, but you would support measures to solve problems only claimed to exist or to solve predictions that have been proven utterly false. Meanwhile drug damaged babies do indeed exist. That outcome has been proven as real.

Quote:
This makes no sense.

Given your reasoning, that isn't a surprise.

Quote:
Clearly the reasoning of this person paying the addicts is the same position as the anti-abortionists which she is undoubtedly a subscriber to.

But it raises a key point - albeit unwittingly; it seems that these people only REALLY care, perhaps wrong word, let's say 'focus', only really focus on the baby.

I believe this is because, to them, in some warped fundie-thinking, the baby is somehow 'an innocent'. That is to say not like the scumbag mother who had sex or the sinning junkie destined to hell.

They don't care about real people at all. A baby is a blank canvas which they can project their beliefs onto and quite possibly mold or brainwash....but the mother, the destitute reduced to drugs, the raped teenager......they can go to hell. Literally they hope.

So your reasoning here is that they are paying people not to have children because those chilldren are blank canvas that they can convert to their beliefs even though it will now never exist.

Um.... Please talk to your dealer. The stuff you are buying is clearly too strong.


Quote:
You speak truth for once. A similar experiment of 'stopping undesirable outcomes' was tried before last century I believe.

But the point is not 'where it is stopped' at all. It is why do some people think they have the right to stop things and impose their will on others who just want to live their lives?

It's sort of strange how mutual agreement and exchange = impose in your strange mind.

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It's a question you'd be better placed to answer than me but I'm not holding my breath...

I'd suggest you not hold your breath either. Clearly your mental reasoning is already profoundly compromised.

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It's about choices Trumpy.....you just don't get that do you?

This is irony right? You want to deny the right to operate in the name of choice.

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It's odd but it's always the Right who champion choice and yet always the Right who try to curtail it.

Yet here is the left demanding a curtailing of it.

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Actually no. Because one is random and the result of a choice - a choice you may not wish to allow but a choice nonetheless - and the other is not a choice but someone imposing their beliefs on another person.

It is also class-based.

If not then why not pay the equivalent to rich junkies on a sliding scale? Fiar enough - 200 to John but what about Tabitha Hortense Ponsonby-Smythe - 200 is lunch to her..... put your money where your mouth is and pay her what the Right usually would argue she is worth.

I'm sorry but this reasoning is just damaged. Free exchange to you is labeled as an imposing of beliefs. I guess being a dickheads cool because those of us not on the dole are having life imposed on us by those giving us a wage. I'm not familair with Tabitha. Does she also blow $200 or so of coke up her nose at lunch as well? If so then I'll hope no kids are involved.


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Bankers in the City - they can snort enough Charlie of a lunchtime to sink the Bismarck and their bonuses buy more than a £10 bag...how about doshing them out £250,000 to do it.

She's welcome to do so in my opinion.

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Won't happen.
Because it's class based.

So who pays for what class?

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It's not about drugs, addiction or dependency.

It is about those things and who pays for that dependency.

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It's about preying on the weak and downtrodden of society as a precursor to 'saving their souls' or getting brownie points with the Man Upstairs.

This constant self monologue is a bit boring. Do you always need to repeat these mantras to yourself out of fear of reality creeping in?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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