Categorizing iPad as PC would make Apple largest in US market - Page 2

Goofey's an IM. AppleTVs are a hobby.

It's definitely personal and it's definitely a computer, but I don't know if it's a personal computer. I would say not (or not yet).

I think one of the key things that makes a computer a computer is being general purpose, i.e. apps.

IPAD needs a liitle more functionality before it can be called a PC . Doubtful Apple will ever give it that functionality as that would be shooting itself in the foot as Apple would lose sales of their other PCs, Laptops etc.

Seriously, ipad a PC? It's a toy. It's a nice toy but:
Ipad is to a PC as Casio is to grand piano.

next month you will be able to print from an iPad.

you can already use a keyboard with an iPad just like you can with any computer. The same apple wireless keyboard you use with an iMac.

most people don't need to write software

and by your definition a netbook isn't a PC (no DVD drive)

And others are exacerbated. The one down-side of "general purpose computing" is that to excel at everything you have to have substantial powers. GP PCs have gigs of RAM, terabytes of storage, and typically several processing cores, each clocked north of 2GHz. Its largely the very reason we now have such powerful computers.

Netbooks have none of these and are thus woefully underpowered GP PCs -- yes, they cover the feature set of a PC better than an iPad, but end up doing a poorer job of it, and like the iPad, they continue to evolve, both pushing up the netbook end, and pulling down the prices of laptops (a market the iPad is destroying, if you believe Best Buy).

I'm not knocking the iPad -- it's on the right track, but it has a way to go, yet. Not supporting USB will mandate manufactures to think of other ways to accomplish the same thing using wireless. But the biggest impediment to the iPad completely replacing the laptop is Apple itself, and I'm not sure how to get around that one...

It doesn't lack a system-wide file system - you simply don't have what is considered traditional access to the file system. If you lump netbooks into the PC category they would fail running "professional level applications" as well. Running professional level applications has not ever been a part of the accepted definition of PC - just a preference for those who want a powerful enough PC.

I agree the current system set-up is much more conservative than the broad category of PC, but since we are talking about what is essentially a paradigm shift in computing anyway, the traditional definitions naturally get re-examined for relevancy in light of the shift and so it becomes harder to nail down until the new paradigm is broadly accepted.

Define what a "PC does" then...

Yeah, and that's actually pretty cool when I found that out. Hopefully Magic Trackpad support is next. A mouse would be a tad anachronistic, but the Magic Trackpad would be perfect for use with a docked iPad.


Or draw, or do nonlinear video editing ... but some of us do, and that's what I mean by general purpose. Plug in a MIDI splitter and it's now the hub of your DJ business; throw in some CUDA cards and you're now a micro-super computer. It can be anything I need it to be, and right now the iPad can't quite do that.


Perhaps it isn't, but I wasn't attempting to define what a PC is, only that the iPad is currently not up to what we presently call a "PC" -- or a Mac -- I don't want the term PC here to define an IBM/Windows PC. Even the Commodore Amiga was a PC in its time, and was far more general purpose than the iPad is now -- so if it's not up to 1990's standards of what a PC can **DO** then it's not a PC.

A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.

you don't need a PC to print, and until compliers were written you couldn't write software on PCs, you can centrally manage your files - I do that with cloud support via iDisk, I don't store 160 GB of any media on a computer - my media resides on a NAS on my network, I play all my most current games on my iPad, I bluetooth link my keyboard to my iPad for typing extended periods, and could care less about 3D modelling and animation or nonlinear video editing - which you can't do on many low-level PCs to begin with, let alone netbooks. Buring DVDs is strictly 20th century stuff, and there are a number of PCs that aren't well-equiped to do even that. I have yet to discover a USB dependent peripheral that is an absolute show-stopper for defining a PC or an SD card slot for that matter. I post constantly on blogs (like this one) from my iPad, and lord have mercy what did you do - ignore the internet when screen res was 800x600???

So fine, YOU think a PC has to do all this, but I submit that your demands are essentially flawed for the vast majority of users/consumers. So this is a fit only for your particular needs which are not, in toto common with the average user.

Wow, who knew an IBM PC wasn't a PC?

You guys are just arguing the definition of a word which has no universal definition.

Let's deconstruct here:

A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO - not needed as a part of the definition - you can have a perfectly fine PC that doesn't have a network card yet can still do processing. Perferred, perhaps but not required.

Burning CD/DVDs - Again, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there were PCs that never had the capability to burn CD/DVD back in the days of floppies - and yet they were considered PCs by any reasonable definition.

... I can go on - but what you constructed here is your WANT list, or your preferences, NOT a functional definition of what a PC is. For example I can have a headless file or print server that is hard-coded to do just that function, and yet it is NOT considered a PC by any tradition accepted definition. Also custom building is a preference, not a requirement. Some PC units in use today are NOT parts replaceable - they are modular in nature and you simply swap out the whole unit - because it's cheaper to do that than to pay someone to take it apart, potentially impact other components and reassemble and return to service. Support multiple monitors - that's a recent upgrade to many PCs, and is limited on netbooks, and some low-end PCs. Integrated graphics doesn't allow for multiple montiors now does it? And act as a DVR? Again far outside the traditional PC definition - not a must have as a functional definition.

Modern netbooks are as powerful as the desktops were several years ago. They are as powerful as supercomputers were many years ago.

Modern netbooks are powerful enough to be mainstream computers for the vast majority of users.

They are far from woefully underpowered. Indeed, compared to the computer I was using daily less than a year ago (P4-class AMD processor, 512 megs of RAM), they are fully featured powerful machines.

I feel that it's entirely based on your point-of-view.

The concept of the PC has generally evolved since the 1970's, but the founding principle is this -- a PC can DO just about anything -- whether it does it correctly or quickly isn't terribly relevant. Anything the PC can't do right now, someone is out there trying to make it do.

So at one end, the iPad does everything a lot of people would otherwise need a PC to do -- browse the web, check their email and play some staggeringly light-of-mind games. On the other end, the iPad does perhaps 5 to 10% of what we use PCs for -- there are no iPad clusters, no Maya for iPad and it still can't play Crysis...

If the iPad is not a computer now, then what would it need in order to be classified as one?

Surely it's only limited by software and hardware? If a MKII iPad had better connectivity to more peripheral devices (printers etc) would it be more computer like? It would still be an iPad, tablet etc..

For me it has replaced my Macbook for things like browsing the web, listening to music, watching films, playing games, reading email. My Macbook is a computer so my logic dictates the iPad is also.

I suppose it's only the end users in these forums who are interested in the stats, Apple don't seem to be that bothered.

I see why solip bailed from this thread. DE-pressing.

Seriously, though, Gruber has a take on this today:

http://daringfireball.net/

As someone who has built countless (literally) PC's for just about every use imaginable, from botanical testbed monitoring units to house-system controls and all levels of corporate usage, including virtual PCs, it is amusing to see all the needs sets come tumbling into the conversation without the requisite "it won't work as a standard PC for me if it doesn't do ..."

Early PCs hardly did anything close what some of you are calling out as defining what a PC is. It's fine to say it doesn't meet my current computing needs - but that doesn't make any more or less a PC in the traditional sense. The tube-based computation devices of the 50s and 60s were in fact computers, but compared to now had little of the power we expect from a PC. But they were for their time the bleeding edge.

The base functionality of a PC is the ability to run programs that allow functions to be performed across a broad range of needs, usually requiring a CPU, RAM/memory storage, frequently a network interface and user interfaces - input and output. That is the definition of a personal computer. You can argue all you want about your particular needs, or the current state of PCdom in general but it all boils down to that very essential definition above. Whether any particular device meets your particular needs defines what is an acceptable PC for you - but does NOT define a PC in general.

And for those of you who struggle with limited use or restricted PC configurations - its OK. Those are not for you, whether its a low-end budget Windows or Linux box, an Apple computer that doesn'r run your favorite Windows games, or an iPod Touch that runs only App Store apps. But don't pretend that your use requirements are the be/all-end/of of defining what a PC is or is not.

And this doesn't discount your needs as irrelevant, just not definitive. Which is what is being discussed here. I wouldn't try to run Maya on a netbook, nor would I expect a budget Dell to be able to do "anything". This is a very specific definition, and we need to categorize what are needs, wants, desires vs. what is a functional definition of what a PC is. What you are talking about nonarKitten and ghostface147 are PC CONFIGURATIONS not the PC itself.

Not at all, but fifteen years ago, when 800x600 was the norm, the internet was also tailored to that screen resolution. Sadly, 1024x768 also became obsolete about five years ago when the HD push came -- now even many netbooks are sporting 1366x768 displays, and I would wager a lot of people have 1600x900 or better on their laptops and desktops.


I'll agree that my needs (as a software developer) are not inline with the average consumer, and for most people, the iPad certainly suits the same needs they may have otherwise bought a PC for, but that doesn't make the iPad a PC.

You cant do those things on a netbook either. I guess its not a PC then.

Self update the OS and printing without another computer on the network? Everything else is just nice-to-have, but any DEPENDENCY on another computer makes it less than a full computer, by definition.

No, it's limited by Apple. Software can solve both of the above points (and easily I might add -- no Apple doesn't need to write a zillion drivers for every printer on the planet, they just need to support the standard already built-into the OS: PostScript), but as long as Apple maintains an iron-grip around the iOS platform, progress will be rather slow.

Well, you could, if you really wanted to. I don't believe there's anything about a netbook that would even prevent Windows Server from being installed on it. But would Maya run well on a netbook? Probably not.

How is this supposed to work? Printer drivers provide access to printer-specific operations. PostScript doesn't do that, and what's more, not every printer supports PostScript. Not by a long-shot.

Apple doesn't write printer drivers anyway. The printer manufacturers do that, and as we longtime Mac users know so well, they often don't keep their drivers for the Mac as up-to-date as they do for Windows, and often fail to implement all of the printer's features on the Mac.

The lack of direct printing from the iPad has less to do with Apple's "iron grip" on iOS than an effort to avoid user frustration with features that don't work.

I'm sorry but since there is a persistent desire to define PC as "whatever is what meets my needs of the moment" we cannot continue this fruitfully as a discussion FMPOV. Consider that all your internet services are hosted on servers upon which your individual PC is dependent in order to deliver your content. Limited functionality doesn't make a device NOT a PC, just not a PC you would use for whatever your needs are. Likewise dependence on another device be it internet server, jackable other computing device or peripheral doesn't provide enough reason to declare something not a PC.

But for most of you, ironically since I have been in technology for more than 30 years (more than forty actually - but I am only referencing those as a paid professional), you have an inherent resistance to shifting the paradigm. Which on one hand is perfectly understandable, but on the other leads to less fruitful discussions as this resistance means that you cannot let go of your own self-determined definitions, and see the paradigm shift for what it is. Having been part of several of these shifts myself, I know where you're coming from, but it is interesting to be as old as I am, and yet better able than many of you to accept this shift without the appearance of panicked resistance.

A Wyse terminal is not a PC, even if you have access to a desktop running ultra high end "professional" apps. So the presence of cloud computing cannot "make" the iPad anymore of a PC than it would be without.

You're argument is circular -- the fact that a device suits your needs insofar as a PC would have also suited those needs doesn't make the iPad a PC. Just like a hatchback isn't a tractor-trailer, even though the hatchback fulfills your needs for hauling stuff.

So are you saying that when I used Time Machine from my old Laptop to set up my new laptop that that made the new laptop not a PC? It is way too cumbersome and error prone to manually move everything over. Users need an existing PC to manage that process.

And trying to say a chunk of hardware is or is not something based on an installed software application is ridiculous. In iPhoto 1 you could not tag photos, does that mean we retroactively have to classify every Mac a non-PC up until the version of iPhoto that introduced tagging? The logic of doing that is ludicrous, your whole post is broken by poor logic and fragile obsolete definitions.

Add front and back cameras, Retina Display, more RAM, no Bezel.... and I am going to ditch my upgrade and upgrade. I also want a 7" model with a phone that I can carry in my lab coat pocket.

It would be nice if I can hook up to the dash of the car to have music, GPS mapping, other car functions, etc....the unit that is included in my car requires that the owner navigate a 200 page manual. Looses all the info when the battery goes dead!

I know these are just wishes... but the point I want to make is that the iOS platform has a lot of room to grow in terms of products.

And vice-versa, when these other companies release tablets, sales figures (for computers) will not include the tablets?

Have a look at the specs of an Altair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altair_8800

I can state a case that an iPod is not a personal computer because I can't write programs on the device that run on the device (BASiC).

Conversely, I can state a case that the Altair is not a personal computer because the only native I/O is a row of toggle switches and a corresponding row of lights -- you set the 8 switches, verify them in the lights, toggle the enter switch and, voila you have entered a character into the computer.

Similar cases can be stated for almost any comparison-- from what, arguably, were the first personal computers (Apple ][ of 1978, IBM/pc 0f 1981) to the popular definition(s) of personal computers we have today.

I personally sold each of the above-mentioned devices to customers (persons) -- as well as many of the follow-on devices through 1989.

Were they all personal computers? Were none of them personal computers?

I think the former-- let me explain why:

I think most will agree that the hardware in smart phones, iPod Touches and iPads (tablets) qualify them as computers.

Then we are left with what differentiates a "personal computer" from a "computer"?

It is the "ability of the customer (the person) to make the computer do what the person wants it to do.

It isn't, necessarily, what OS the computer runs -- The early computers didn't have OSes.

It isn't, necessarily, what peripherals you can attach to the computer -- The early computers had Paper Tape, and Magnetic Tape I/O, TeleTypes for Key Entry.


I Have FCS Studio, and some very expensive Plugins to do rotoscoping, compositing, titling, e.g. non-liner A/V editing. I do that on my dual-display iMac personal computer.

We have a central media library of 10,000 songs, 700 movies, 500 TV shows and 1,000 Podcasts. It is stored on 2 2-Terabyte drives connected to a headless/keyboardless Mac Mini personal computer

We have a new AppleTV personal computer that allows us to stream everything on the media library (or other computers) to our HDTV and stereo system(s) (inside and outside).

I have an iPad 3G personal computer that I use to "keep in touch", play games, stream content -- on the couch, in the back yard, at a restaurant (HotSpot), or in the middle of a park.

To me, all of these are personal computers because I can make them do what I want them to do -- what could be more personal than that?

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so a MacBook Air isn't a PC?

Well stated, and very true. As I pointed out in the previous debate on this subject, the entire "PC" category is ultimately arbitrary, and has a habit of expanding and contracting depending on the argument someone is trying support. For many years, the debate was over whether the Mac was a PC. Plenty said the Mac wasn't a PC since it didn't use IBM's hardware platform or x86 processors. No wonder this debate quickly turns religious. It always has, really.

No they don't. You favored the easier route available to you, but you could have just as well installed OS-X from DVD. You didn't need any other computer to set up your computer. And calling the Time Capsule a PC is more of a stretch than the iPad.

One final thought - then I really have to let this go most of you are just struggling too much with this. From my posting above let me re-quote the standard definition of a PC:

The base functionality of a PC is the ability to run programs that allow functions to be performed across a broad range of needs, usually requiring a CPU, RAM/memory storage, frequently a network interface and user interfaces - input and output.

But in the same way a server is not strictly speaking a PC (and yes you can put a server OS on decently configured PC hardware), I can drop a 12-cylinder diesel engine in my (heavily modified) hatchback, but it doesn't make my hatchback a semitractor. So if I want high mpg and occasional hauling capacity, then the transportation device for me is the hatchback. If I want to be able to haul tons of materiel cross-country, and be damned the fuel burn rate, then the semitractor/trailer is my device. I can also (judging from commercials) pull a semi-trailer with a pickup truck.

Your argument above is NOT about what is and is not a PC but about what is and is not able to do the things you want to do, pure and simple. Both of your examples, semitractor/trailer and hatchback are transportation devices. However the cateogry is more closely defined than that - as we talk about PCs as a class of computational device, the subset of characteristics as I quoted above are what define the PC device as a class. So what your comparison SHOULD BE is between consumer class automobiles, say a Honda Fit and a Ferrari, for example.

What we are looking at here is what defines automobiles as a class of transportation device, as we define PCs as a class of computational device. So you have a broad spectrum of automobiles from small sub-compact to oversized HUM-V, all of which share common characteristics of engine/drivetrain, energy source containment, four or more wheels, a body enclosure, environmental and user interfaces (braking systems, interior environmental controls, steering, signals, headlamps, etc).

I have belabored this argument for far too long with too little success here. I respectfully withdraw from this discussion point.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'd love to sell the MacBook as I'd happily get by with my iPad. Alas, as you point out, it's still dependant on another device. \

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Edited by sneamia - 9/5/12 at 9:01am

Mmm... Where do Windows and Mac OS X updates come from-- Don't you download them from another computer on a network?

As an iOS developer, I have the 4.2 beta installed on our iPads. You can print quite nicely to a printer attached to a router (AirPort Extreme) or a computer.

We made home-made linguini last night. While waiting for the pasta to dry, I plopped on the couch with my iPad to watch the Giants (lose), while surfing a recipe for clam sauce. Recipe found, I touched the button and printed to the old HP5700 on the AirPort Extreme. The print output was too small to read-- so I pinch-zoomed the recipe until it filled the iPad screen, set auto-sleep to never, and propped it up next to the stove (Easel Case).. Actually it was on top of the toaster because I don't have the best eyesight. We finessed cooking the pasta, the sauce and watching the game for about an hour. Periodically I would go into the kitchen, scan the recipe (continuously displayed) and add the appropriate ingredient/action.

I have a laptop with which I never would attempt this! The iPad met my personal needs on the couch and in the kitchen.



You can run Apache Server on any iPhone or iPad Touch... Along with PSP and SQLlite!

You can run uLinux on a 30 GB ca 2004 iPod.


I don't mean to focus on you, because I agree with most of what you say.

I suspect you have more that one personal computer-- likely, at least 1 desktop, and at least 1 Laptop.

Why both? You might answer: Duh... portability!


What do you sacrifice for that portability: Speed, CPU power, GPU power, RAM, HDD capacity, I/O devices (scanners, midis, etc), Printers...


The point is that a lot of us have more than 1 computer that we have selected to satisfy our needs at performing various tasks in various situations.


The fact that an iPad won't satisfy any of your needs for a personal computer, doesn't mean that it won't satisfy any of my needs... and vice versa.


My needs are my needs -- it would be presumptuous of me to assume that they are your needs... and vice versa.

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This is 100% true, but will fall on deaf ears.

Agreed.
A PC doesn't require a second PC to activate it. Stupid move, Apple.
PC's are a bit old now.. After using an iPad for a week I must say... it's the future.

Bearing in mind the lack of quality in the software, I would suggest it's barely above a 'toy'

if it had a 'proper' featured OS then I might agree it being a PC.

iOS is its major downfall.

A PC isn't really a PC if you can buy it pre-build and don't need to pull out a soldering iron to put it together - otherwise it's just some lame consumer device. Who's with me!?

What you're describing is a hobbyist machine, not what more and more consumers who don't give a damn about upgrading hardware or setting up file/print servers are looking for. The iPad is certainly a Personal Computer - a lot more personal than the machines of the past decades.