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Google VP, TweetDeck CEO refute comments from Apple's Steve Jobs - Page 4

post #121 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Explain Google's Schmidt. He's made a career of spouting non-palpable bullshit and driving his past projects into the ground.

Yeah - good point. As bad as Steve may be, there is at least one existent CEO who is worse in one regard.

Steve vs. Schmidt. Steve is not as bad as Schmidt.

That ain't saying much. Is that the strongest available defense of the man?
post #122 of 219
Android's "openness" is largely for the carriers; it's helping usher back in, for instance, the era of Verizon encrusted phones designed to drive Verizon services. Google doesn't care, they make their ad hits anyway, and Verizon's customers don't realize what's happening because the vast majority of Android users, at this point, are just regular folk looking to upgrade to this whole "smartphone" deal they've heard tell of and getting the hard sell from Verizon's famously duplicitous sales-drones.

Really, you think the average Android owner, pleased that they can play a few games, access the web and read email, gives a shit about "openness"? Android is currently hanging its hat on the "it goes to 11" adolescent boy mentality (if you doubt it just look at any Android ad, with the sweat, steel and testosterone dripping off the screen), cheap ubiquity, and the current steep ramp-up in smart phone penetration, which means most people buying a smartphone don't have anything to compare it to.

It remains to be seen if that strategy will continue to work; in their frenzy to get some market differentiation handset makers are cranking out laughably over-specced kit "packing" the kinds of numbers that make little boys get all swoony, while doing pretty much nothing for the average surfing and emailing users.

But the market will mature, buyers will become more sophisticated, and odds are Apple will continue to add carriers. We'll see, but if you're given a choice of "works really well although my geek friends keep talking about 'closed' and 'locked down' and 'walled garden', although I really don't know what any of that means" and "I can quote hardware specs RAWR OPEN although some stuff is kind of fucked up and I tried that awesome open video chat and it sort of works sometimes", at more or less the same price, I reckon even more people will choose the iPhone than are choosing it now.

Of course, several models of iPhone vs. several thousand models of Android is always going to be a bit of a lopsided fight. Some people may recall that "other" has maintained respectable numbers in the MP3 player market just by being cranked out in the billions and being cheap. Android could "thrive" in that sense, being the no-name underpinnings of countless free with contract phones, but it's not much of a go-to-market strategy if you're interested in making money, for anyone but Google.
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post #123 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Armchair quarterbacks... love em.

At least 18 million iOS devices in this quarter (not sure of the exact Touch numbers)... count em... and Steve is just getting started.

Do you really believe that Steve is being complacent.

Oh boy...

Except....have a look at the trajectory. Android achieved in two years what iOS took 3 or more to achieve. Moreover, Jobs' notes are out of date. The figure he cited for Android activations was from early August not last week....and there isn't even a serious Android tablet contender out yet. It is in the realm of possibilty that Android activations on phones alone could surpass iOS sales in the next few months. That's why he's coming out swinging.

That said...Andy Rubin's comment was still moronic.
post #124 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

Who gives a hoot if android ships more devices,


Steve appears to care very, very much.

He has brought it up in huge public venues at least twice now.

I think that many posters here care very much, as well, judging from the number of posts that people make about the subject.

All in all, I think that far from nobody "giving a hoot", lots of people care very, very much.
post #125 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

SJ has some good points to make, but he also says some things that are not well thought out. I recall Apple pooh poohing Windows in the early days right before M$ ate them for lunch.

Android has some issues, yes, but so does iOS. I'm not sure what SJ/Apple doesn't understand or is afraid of about open source. Andriod is open, iOS is not. It is that simple. There are different mind sets. So what? It is what it is. Android has fragmentation, and that is a separate issue. It sure doesn't seem to be hurting them though.

Don't fool youself Steve, Android is not broken, and it's no toy. You're going to have to stay on top of your game while relaxing the iron grip on iOS a bit, if you don't, Android will do to iOS what Windows did to MacOS. There's no room for complacency here.

I suspect that Steve's comments were well thought out, committed to paper and carefully read.

If you listen to the earnings call, it comes across as a well considered, scripted presentation.

Even the Q & A session. Steve chose to discuss what he planned to say -- rather than answer specific questions.

One of the reasons for this is that CEOs are limited to what they can say, and how they say it in an earnings call.

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post #126 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Core2 View Post

Looks like a few ruffled feathers ....

As far as I'm concerned the CEO of TweetDeck can shove rusty nails up his ass. I paid for their pathetic iPad app and it was the most crashy, buggy pile of crap I ever loaded on my iPad. I eventually switched to Osfoora, then the Twitter client for iPad, and never looked back. I don't think Steve should have never given these clowns the shout out. They don't deserve it.

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post #127 of 219
My opinion... many people are looking at the iOS vs Android thing the wrong way.

How many plain jane run of the mill non smartphones are out in the market today. Obviously they still have the lion's share of the market.

As consumers move over to smartphones they may well be replacing their regular phones with "cheap" Android phones.

Does it mean that Apple won't grow their market. Not at all.

Will there be more Android phones than iOS phones... maybe... but so what. It hasn't affected Apple's growth so far and it won't affect its growth in the future... or maybe some people have forgotten that Apple still makes money on Macs... you know... the computers that only have less than 10% of the market.

... and what the hell would make anyone think that Apple is being complacent or would be complacent in the future.

My head hurts...
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post #128 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhammy View Post

Actually, when you give arrogant people any sort of latitude, they think they can become even more arrogant--as is evidently the case here.

Does that apply to forum posters too?

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post #129 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

They don't have 100 version, they only have one

Even if they only have one version, they still have to test it across multiple devices and software configurations. Some non-developers significantly underestimate the amount of effort it takes to test things, probably because they assume the test results are green across the board. Having lived through the test/revise/test/revise/test/etc cycle numerous times, I appreciate what Steve is talking about here. As a matter of fact, I would venture the opinion that it is actually HARDER to perform that cycle for one version of software that is supposed to work across the multiple configurations. It can be maddening when the "fix" for an issue on one configuration introduces problems on several others.

Thompson
post #130 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

Now, it's consumers in the drivers seat. Apple dominates with consumer innovation, satisfaction, and loyalty. PERIOD. Apple's biggest problem may be a lack of any real competitors.


If that is true, why isn't Apple the number one phone maker? Why isn't iOS the number one seller currently?
post #131 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Android achieved in two years what iOS took 3 or more to achieve.

Wasnt Android bought by Google in 2005? Werent there prototypes of Android OS on a phone years before the iPhone was even demoed? Why did it take them so long to come to market if they are beating to their own drum? How is a platform open if its locked up tight by the vendor or carrier. Isnt that like a warden telling an inmate they are free to use the open yard or read books in their cell? Sounds like the only freedoms with Android is the vendors and carriers finding new ways to fragment the users and services. Android has surely beat iOS in terms of speed in that area.

Quote:
and there isn't even a serious Android tablet contender out yet.

Why not? They were presented at CES last January before the iPad was even officially demoed. Why arent tablet makers serious about Android yet? Are they waiting to see what Apple does so they can copy everything again and come through with more OS versions on more units sold across dozens and dozens of manufactures and hundreds of HW implementations?

Sounds like a winning plan¡ Which vendor using Android OS will win the race to the bottom this time?
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post #132 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

No argument.

But that does not justify the CEO of a public company spouting palpable bullshit.

Other than mispronouncing TweetDeck's name, can you identify any single pertinent thing that Steve said that cannot be backed up?

If you can, you should report it to the SEC as there are laws and regulations against this.

If not, Well....

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post #133 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Except....have a look at the trajectory. Android achieved in two years what iOS took 3 or more to achieve. Moreover, Jobs' notes are out of date. The figure he cited for Android activations was from early August not last week....and there isn't even a serious Android tablet contender out yet. It is in the realm of possibilty that Android activations on phones alone could surpass iOS sales in the next few months. That's why he's coming out swinging.

That said...Andy Rubin's comment was still moronic.



The facts speak for themselves.
post #134 of 219
I don't know about you but Angry Birds works just fine on my Vibrant and the 2 million downloads means that it works many handsets. I guess Apple is working with a limited skillset which is why they find it (Android) so difficult.
post #135 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Naw. The definition of "open" is "iOS". From now on, whenever someone says that iOS is not open, they will be wrong, by definition.

That is the power of marketing. iOS is Open. It is the most open thing in the world. It is open in every sense of the word.

iOS is OPEN. don't forget...

If you care to go down that path...

Android is open to the handset developers

iOS is open to the handset developer (Apple).

Android is open to the carriers

iOS is not open to the carriers:

... advantage iOS

... advantage iOS developer

... advantage iOS user

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post #136 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post



The facts speak for themselves.

Your "facts" conveniently overlook the significant fact that the iPhone is only one part of the iOS universe. The iPad, iPod touch, and Apple TV (2nd gen) contribute mightily to the ecosystem that is iOS. Many don't seem to get the important fact that voice telephony is just an app. It is not primary, just historical and will fade as technology and business advance.
post #137 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoebetech View Post

I don't know about you but Angry Birds works just fine on my Vibrant and the 2 million downloads means that it works many handsets. I guess Apple is working with a limited skillset which is why they find it (Android) so difficult.

Angry Birds was an unqualified success on iPhone. It raked in so much cash and was so popular that they are talking about making a movie out of it and marketing stuffed animals based on it. What I'm trying to say here is that once the makers were so enriched, it became fairly simple to begin the porting to Android. Don't be fooled though: nothing simple is ever easy. I am certain that it was a fairly daunting task to test those configurations (and will be even more so for the tablets that are coming). But if you have enough time, money, and talent to take on a promising task (such as porting your own successful software to a broader baseline) well, you can certainly achieve it.

In a nutshell: your example that Angry Birds works on your Android handset is NOT a valid counter-argument to Steve's claim that it was daunting to achieve.

Thompson
post #138 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

When Google is stressing that Android is open, this carries the implicit message that this is a good thing for the consumer in the end. And calling that implicit message as disingenuous is certainly somewhat justified. So, in the end Jobs can exactly be understood as what you suggest.

When Jobs said, 'we think this is a bit disingenuous', the 'this' could refer to 'open' or the fact that Google is stressing open as if it were a major advantage. If we think that Jobs is an arrogant jerk, we will naturally be more inclined to think he is referring to the former (open), but if we try to think what a rational mind could have meant with it, we will probably believe the latter (open not being a major advantage).

A general problem naturally is that in such official company statements (into which we can subsume Jobs words) there will always be a mixture of facts, general wisdoms, and conclusion, conjecture and opinion. We can always not agree with opinions, conjecture and certain conclusions but that does not mean they are lying or making things up, just that the listener or reader has to pay attention to differentiate the statements.

You raise some good points. Regardless of intent however, it's clear that the public at large took his comments as a commentary, if not attack, on 'open', so I think other wording indicating that Google's approach to 'open' with Android isn't necessarily effective compared to the iOS model would have been a better way to go.
post #139 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Android achieved in two years what iOS took 3 or more to achieve.

This should be tempered by the facts that (1) the smartphone market was not so large when Apple introduced the iPhone and (2) Apple was barraged by naysayers from nearly all quarters (Verizon, RIM, Nokia, Motorola, Microsoft, etc.) who all said: the original iPhone couldn't be good in its first incarnation from a company that's never even made a cell phone before, that an all-touch interface won't work, that single-tasking is a killer, etc.

Apple completely redefined the smartphone market, while Google just watched and adapted.
post #140 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

No, Jobs said they had to contend when Tweetdeck programmer doesn't said anything about difficulties or that they had to make anything special to make the app work on any terminal

You're sounding a tad desperate.
post #141 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoebetech View Post

I don't know about you but Angry Birds works just fine on my Vibrant and the 2 million downloads means that it works many handsets. I guess Apple is working with a limited skillset which is why they find it (Android) so difficult.

Or they just feel that not splitting their talent many different ways, but rather concentrating on specific features/devices/software, is the winning strategy. So far it's working for Apple, if their revenue and profits are any indication. Besides, Angry Birds like many other games and applications were developed on and for iOS and then brought other platforms. When programs launch first for Android, become a major success and then are ported to iOS, then maybe things will be a concern.
post #142 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhammy View Post

I'm truly amazed at the level of blatant "sheeplike" responses here. This is serious business, folks. For what it's worth, Apple's surge to dominance is under attack by Android and Jobs knows it. That's why he made the rare appearance at this type of event to bash Android (as well as Blackberry, which poses little threat).

It's now the war of # of activations, which Google started back in May with 160,000 activations/day, then over 200K/day. Then Jobs countered with a higher number and now again with close to 300K. I'm sure Google will respond in kind as well.

iPhone people take note: as much as you want to deny the stats that show Android is about to overtake iPhone for the foreseeable future (and already has for the past 6 months in sale--the articles are aplenty on that), it really behooves Apple to take action now before they become the next Blackberry.

Let the flames begin!

How would you categorize your responses... and your posts on AI forums, in general?

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post #143 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdbryan View Post

Your "facts" conveniently overlook the significant fact that the iPhone is only one part of the iOS universe. The iPad, iPod touch, and Apple TV (2nd gen) contribute mightily to the ecosystem that is iOS. Many don't seem to get the important fact that voice telephony is just an app. It is not primary, just historical and will fade as technology and business advance.

It also ignores the fact that a vendor that builds an OS for their HW perhaps should be measured against other HW vendors instead of being lumped together with all HW vendors. Those trolls like to paint Apple as somehow losing money and not having an install base to maintain their interests, when its quite the opposite, with vendors using Android are doing so because they were on the brink of dying. Now they are barely trending water along with dozens of other companies. Not exactly the success story and Apple-killer they keep trying to say it is.
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post #144 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave
At my office, there are now more people with Android phones than iPhones. I personally will be sticking with an iPhone, but this is not an obscure issue, it's very real. Apple's not doomed or failing, they just need to watch their backs or they will be surpassed (again).

Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Everyone at my office that bought an Android phone wishes they'd bought an iPhone.

That may be so, but they still bought Android phones.
post #145 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Wasnt Android bought by Google in 2005? Werent there prototypes of Android OS on a phone years before the iPhone was even demoed?

You might have also asked what the Android UI looked like before the iPhone was introduced.

(Answer: Android looked like every other P.O.S. smartphone OS that came before the iPhone.)
post #146 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

That may be so, but they still bought Android phones.

Well, then, what do you think happens when they get their next chance, and the availability of iPhones has greatly increased across carriers and retail locations? Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to see that the iPhone juggernaut is going to continue growing, even while the Android Army, through sheer numbers if not individual size, does the same.

Apple is going to rake in plenty of cash during this market expansion. (I'm not making any market share claims, here.) It is unclear to me which company is going to rake in cash from Android. Motorola is a decent bet so far. Google should make out well if they manage to successfully monetize Android via advertisement. But you know, I am really glad that that won't be the iPhone way. I wager dollars to donuts that Android phones end up with advertisements all over the place as opposed to just in the apps that users elect to install (which is where iAd lives).

Thompson
post #147 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

That may be so, but they still bought Android phones.

... fool me once...
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post #148 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post

Being a low level geek can someone tell me what that cryptic code means? Thanks.

He is showing how easily and tersely one can recompile Android from it's publicly available source code. That implies if you want to change some aspect of Android you have the opportunity to edit the source code, recompile, and then install on your handset. This is nerd nirvana but it is a bit naive on at least two counts. It doesn't account for the venality of handset manufacturers (I'm looking at you, Motorola) who try to stifle this capability. It also presumes that more than a tiny fraction of handset owners have the interest and ability to modify and recompile the kernel.

It is also worth noting that for that small fraction of handset owners who care to explore and modify at a low level, the iPhone has a very active and capable jailbreak community that enable the user root access (go to your local hacker, not the Apple Genius Bar for further information).
post #149 of 219
How do Android appologists rectify the blatant plagiarism of Google biting huge piece of Apple's iOS/iPhone work? They clearly stole the multitouch UI from the iPhone. I don't get how anybody would get behind someone who just does half assed knock offs?

I think it's more of a character issue, it's easier for talentless morons to critique those that innovate and work their ass of, than it is to respect those with skills. Maybe they feel better about their own irrelevance and laziness when they not only stomach but champion the copy cats.

Seems to me that Apple is finally getting to the place that they should be in the tech industry, the top - and all the brats with egg on their faces now get to collectively whine about having the tail view.
post #150 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistergsf View Post

Oh c'mon. Apple gets "called out" all the time these days -- it's expected when you're on top. Why shouldn't Steve/Apple call out the competition once in a while too? It's good competition and I don't mind it. I think it keeps everyone on their toes and keeps things interesting. Just my opinion.

On another note, I did find it interesting when Steve pointed out that there has been no hard data provided from Android handset makers of how many phones are being or have been sold? Is this true? Didn't Google say there are at least 200,000 Android activations a day or something like that? That's a lot of phones.

Ya' know...

It would be interesting to find out what comprises an "activation"

On the iOS side, does plugging an ipad into iTunes for the first time count as an activation (I think it does)

When you activate an iPhone (with the carrier) for the first time does it count as an activation (I think it does).

I don't know anything about iPod touches.

What happens if you change SIMS in phones (hand-me-downs) and reactivate them... does that count?

What about OS upgrades/restores to any iOS device -- do those count?


I know nothing about the Android side-- bur there are activations, OS upgrades and routings... How are these counted?


What I am saying is:

Until we know what comprises an "activation" it is rather meaningless to use it for comparison.


Apple [mostly] breaks out its iDevice sales in quarterly reports. These are new, unique, iDevices sold.

According to Steve, the other handset/device OEMs do not [all] report unique device sales.


Where do the companies, that compare the various OS and Device sales, get their numbers?

How are they normalized?


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post #151 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Yeah, he's starting to sound like any other whiny idiot and the reality distortion field doesn't seem to work at all when it's audio only. I listened to his remarks and they just sounded bad to me.

A lot of what he says is technically true, but is so terribly "spun" that it's transparently kind of not true at all. He looks ridiculous saying some of these things when they are obviously very slanted remarks. Does he really expect us to just believe everything he says when it doesn't even make sense?

He sounds more than a bit irrational to me lately.


Whereas you have been a paragon of rationality lately. Projection? I notice you got appl's approval on that one. How does that feel?

Seriously, though, he has been sounding more rational to me, in this sense: he's pulled off the greatest coup in recent American business history (making a line of transformative consumer technical products that the rest of the world actually respects and wants), while he has to take flack from the likes of Google, an advertising company trading in personal behavior. Are you forgetting the sleazefest of Apple-hate-baiting that was the last Google I/O event?

It would be irrational of him to keep quiet about this, on the occasion of Apple's first $20B quarter. He is explaining why Apple's approach is working. But I admit I don't why he brought up RIM. Just free advice? A grudge from some previous episode?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

In summary, you are lying. Making stuff up. Quoting phantasms. Given that the below barely qualifies as drivel.

appl does indeed deserve this lashing, since he seems to be a paid agent of discord on this forum. Transparent to me, anyway.

The infantile amateur psychologizing here re Jobs here ought to stop. It's disgraceful how y'all are failing to grasp the historical importance of what Apple has accomplished under his doctrine: making great things that people can actually enjoy using.
post #152 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

even if they only have one version, they still have to test it across multiple devices and software configurations. Some non-developers significantly underestimate the amount of effort it takes to test things, probably because they assume the test results are green across the board. Having lived through the test/revise/test/revise/test/etc cycle numerous times, i appreciate what steve is talking about here. As a matter of fact, i would venture the opinion that it is actually harder to perform that cycle for one version of software that is supposed to work across the multiple configurations. It can be maddening when the "fix" for an issue on one configuration introduces problems on several others.

Thompson

qft

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post #153 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

'open' is a ruse.

Yeah, remember that comment. You will be see how wrong it is. Apple should enjoy their current successes. It won't be long until people get tired of Steve deciding what they can, and can't, run on their smart devices. I think Apple will not like the answer.

Btw, I don't know how "Antennagate" put anyone else back on their heels. Not sure how Steve telling people they are holding their phones wrong is "puting them back on their feet".

But, i am sure you are right.
post #154 of 219
Quote:

Dude, it's a YouTube video of a telephone conference call.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #155 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by frawon View Post

Apple should buy Yahoo or get into search business...

Well, that ain't gonna happen. Yahoo is currently relying on Google for their searches (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #156 of 219
Apple has demonstrated that a closed and proprietary system works extremely well in the mobile space. My mobile life is within that space.

But this does not excuse Steve from misappropriating what 'open' means. You can split that bastard a thousand ways but in a nutshell should mean free to use and modify. He did it with h264 and he's doing it here, subtly redefining what open means.

Open does not mean 'ease of implementation' which, among other things, seems to be the thrust of his 'TwitterDeck' comments. Nor does it mean, 'available to use' or 'ubiquitous' which was the tenor of his comments regarding video on the web.

It does mean, however that you can get multiple and different versions of the same thing out in the wild as there are no restrictions on what one may do with open software.

Whether that is better for the consumer is a question for discussion but that in no way feeds into whether something is 'open' or not.
post #157 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Well, that ain't gonna happen. Yahoo is currently relying on Google for their searches (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

I think Yahoo has an agreement with Google for ads but uses Bing for search.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #158 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Personally I only care about 'open' in terms of the end user. I do wish all all document formats were 'open' ie platform independent and software independent. The last one with caveats, of course. I don't expect Word to open PS files. Thank god email and texting are 'open'.

Any content buckets and communication protocols should be open formats.
Text, Numbers (finance) Audio, Video, Social, Emotional and Celestial.
post #159 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Apple [mostly] breaks out its iDevice sales in quarterly reports. These are new, unique, iDevices sold.

According to Steve, the other handset/device OEMs do not [all] report unique device sales.

Numbers are meant to be manipulated by both sides.

There is a huge iphone/ipad grey market economy around the world and nobody knows how many are actually sold to end-users (and not sitting on some shelf in a grey-market store somewhere in China).
post #160 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

You raise some good points. Regardless of intent however, it's clear that the public at large took his comments as a commentary, if not attack, on 'open', so I think other wording indicating that Google's approach to 'open' with Android isn't necessarily effective compared to the iOS model would have been a better way to go.

I doubt that the "public at large" even knew about Apple's earnings call (or iOS or Android) -- many, may not know who Steve Jobs is.

We, inside the tech bubble, parse every syllable of every arcane pronouncement ever made by an individual if it will further our point.

The real world has better things to do.

.
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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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