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RIM: Problems with 7-inch tablets only exist in Apple's 'distortion field' - Page 8

post #281 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

+1 Insightful

Hardly.

Jobs took some things for granted since he wasnt talking to the average consumer. Obvioulsy he knows the iPhone is smaller than the iPad

It's what many people have pointed our already. If you're going to provide a ui that is richer than what you get on a smartphone, it benefits from a bigger interface.

Think about clicking links on a website. On a smartphone, it's usually best to zoom in to make the link bigger and more sure to hit it. On the iPad, I don't have to do that...however, just barely. Sometimes I still zoom in to make sure I hit it, because I'm a stickler. If the screen were any smaller, it would be required for me to zoom in.

You need to provide a different ui in a tablet. You can't just make a bigger smartphone
post #282 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corax View Post

Low? Comparing manufacturers it's pretty high!

Comparing consumer choice, its pretty low. Choice of hardware, choice of software, etc.

When the product uses an OS that the vast majority of software will not run on, which is different from everybody else in the entire industry, I don't see how your comparison is relevant to the discussion.

As a consumer, I don't much care about a horse race between Apple and Asus. What I care about is buying a computer that will smoothly run the latest, coolest apps, and which will easily connect to all my existing and future peripherals, and will perform well for the foreseeable future.

And I care that the price is lower than the rejected choices.

But maybe I think different.
post #283 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheITGuy View Post

But, the average Smartphone user will usually swing to a non-apple phone because of cost and availability from the carrier of their choice.

I don't think you have the numbers to back that up.

This also hinges on the fact that you define your parameters as iPhone vs every other phone out there. If you defined it as iPhone vs blackberry storm, droid, htc evo, etc, the average consumer prefers the iPhone

Beyond that. I didn't say the average consumer chooses the iPhone. I said they prefer. Meaning that they settle for another phone due to carrier choice (few of the new smart phones are seriously undercutting iPhones price)
post #284 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Comparing consumer choice, its pretty low. Choice of hardware, choice of software, etc.

When the product uses an OS that the vast majority of software will not run on, which is different from everybody else in the entire industry, I don't see how your comparison is relevant to the discussion.

As a consumer, I don't much care about a horse race between Apple and Asus. What I care about is buying a computer that will smoothly run the latest, coolest apps, and which will easily connect to all my existing and future peripherals, and will perform well for the foreseeable future.

And I care that the price is lower than the rejected choices.

But maybe I think different.

Apple doesn't compete based on price. Don't expect them to. They're doing just fine basing it on user experience
post #285 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post













That thing looks very cool. My guess is that you really need to hold it in your hands and play with it before you can really appreciate it.

Unless and until someone has actually played with it in their hands, I don't see how they could judge whether or not it is magical and mystical and stuff like that.
post #286 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfyearsun View Post

I don't think you have the numbers to back that up.

This also hinges on the fact that you define your parameters as iPhone vs every other phone out there. If you defined it as iPhone vs blackberry storm, droid, htc evo, etc, the average consumer prefers the iPhone

Beyond that. I didn't say the average consumer chooses the iPhone. I said they prefer. Meaning that they settle for another phone due to carrier choice (few of the new smart phones are seriously undercutting iPhones price)

I don't disagree with you.
post #287 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post

So Apple's biggest success appears to be mind control.

No, their biggest success was their personal media player business. They are still riding that wave.
post #288 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheITGuy View Post

Hey Quadra 610 - - I dont mind someone disagreeing with me or even arguing a point with me, but DONT put your words in my mouth just to justify your opinion! And while I don't totaly disagree with you, there are a large number of people that buy products (Yes, even outside the tech market) solely because they look better than a product that offers more of the features they want. After all, you only need to look at guys with trophy wives to prove my point. They are expensive and cant boil water without burning it, but they look great.

From VNC to Netflix to games to great photography, all wrapped up in the best UI in the biz. That's the iPhone 4, for example. Try actually visiting the App Store sometime.

I find that "IT guys" usually don't get it, although quite a few of them have seen the light and are closet Apple fans. Problem is, they're stuck having to maintain a perpetually broken OS for a living.
post #289 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

No, their biggest success was their personal media player business. They are still riding that wave.

There IS NO halo effect
post #290 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Macs are very nice. That is why the sell, despite all the other issues.

And technophobes like them. Also old people and artists. Some niche uses, like video production, seem to work well on them.

But for folks who want a powerful machine for a good price, and want to have lots of new cool app choices, not so much.

Cars are very nice too.
But for people who want to plough fields, tractors are a much better choice.

C.
post #291 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I am not sure what is meant by Killer Apps - but I can tell you what will not work on a 7" screen.
Magazine apps - like Wired, are already a little cramped on the 10" screen. But still manage to feel like magazine pages.

Halving the screen size will destroy that, and require the user to scroll about, like an iPhone.

Comic Books - currently feel like comic books. Halving them in size destroys the illustion.

Business Documents - currently are close to full size paper. Won't be at half size.

Electronic Newspapers rely on simulating newspaper-like layouts.

and so on.

C.


All good examples of times when the size of the screen is important.

But I doubt that comic books are much mainstream, much less killer. And magazines are not yet at all popular on tablets.

So I think that a bigger screen is better for the stuff you mention, but I still see no killer apps for iPads at all, and certainly no mention of any killer apps that will not work well at all on a 7 incher.

Indeed, while the layout of Newspapers and documents would be different on a 7 inch tablet, portability is more important than layout with those two uses.

So again, what killer apps won't work well on a a 7 inch screen? Sure, bigger is better. Sure, pictures look great big.

But the contention was that killer iPad apps exist. And further, these apps will not work well at 7 inches.

What apps?
post #292 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

That thing looks very cool. My guess is that you really need to hold it in your hands and play with it before you can really appreciate it.

Unless and until someone has actually played with it in their hands, I don't see how they could judge whether or not it is magical and mystical and stuff like that.

Look at those prices though for 7 inches...



(That's what she said!)
post #293 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfyearsun View Post

Ranking has little to do with averages.

It could be argued, but I'd think it's fair to say the average smartphone consumer prefers the iphone

I don't know what they "prefer", because that usage of the word is vague, to say the least.

But it seems clear that the average consumer prefers to buy a phone that is NOT an iPhone.
post #294 of 345
deleted
post #295 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheITGuy View Post

But, the average Smartphone user will usually swing to a non-apple phone because of cost and availability from the carrier of their choice.

Right. The average consumer usually decides against the iPhone, either consciously and explicitly, or otherwise.

Indeed, the vast majority of consumers do NOT buy an iPhone, but instead, decide on another phone.
post #296 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

All good examples of times when the size of the screen is important.

But I doubt that comic books are much mainstream, much less killer. And magazines are not yet at all popular on tablets.

So I think that a bigger screen is better for the stuff you mention, but I still see no killer apps for iPads at all, and certainly no mention of any killer apps that will not work well at all on a 7 incher.

Indeed, while the layout of Newspapers and documents would be different on a 7 inch tablet, portability is more important than layout with those two uses.

So again, what killer apps won't work well on a a 7 inch screen? Sure, bigger is better. Sure, pictures look great big.

But the contention was that killer iPad apps exist. And further, these apps will not work well at 7 inches.

What apps?

There are many great apps... I'm not a heavy user, but there's good functionality (up to you as to what's "killer") as follows:

Videos - built in app, OplayerHD, CineXPlayer for xvids and stuff
Books - iBooks
PDF - iBooks
MSOffice - DocumentsToGo
Web - Safari, AtomicWeb
Games - Cut The Rope
Stargazing - SkySafari
Magazines - Zinio

I could go on, or I could just send you a screenshot of my home screens

Point is, all the above work nice at the current iPad size. Smaller, may not be as effective.
post #297 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfyearsun View Post


You need to provide a different ui in a tablet. You can't just make a bigger smartphone



That is the main reason I was so disappointed with the iPad. When I saw that it used a cellphone UI, I kind of wrote it off.
post #298 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfyearsun View Post

This also hinges on the fact that you define your parameters as iPhone vs every other phone out there. If you defined it as iPhone vs blackberry storm, droid, htc evo, etc, the average consumer prefers the iPhone



But the world does not work that way!

When one chooses a new phone, one compares phones. And following such comparison, the vast majority of people reject the iPhone and buy something else.

Facts is facts.
post #299 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

But the contention was that killer iPad apps exist. And further, these apps will not work well at 7 inches.

What apps?

I would argue that business documents fall into the "Killer" category. I'd say they are essential.

And yes' there are some applications that don't need 10" of screen.

But Apple already make smaller "tablets" with 3.5" screens.

C.
post #300 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

But the world does not work that way!

When one chooses a new phone, one compares phones. And following such comparison, the vast majority of people reject the iPhone and buy something else.

Facts is facts.

Mmmm...just joined, 205 posts and a troll...I wonder who you are?
post #301 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfyearsun View Post

Apple doesn't compete based on price. Don't expect them to. They're doing just fine basing it on user experience



But Apple is changing. There are lots of comments that the $500 iPad price is very attractive, and there are many predictions that other companies will be unable to compete on price with a 9 inch tablet.

ISTM that Apple ain't a company that is relying on huge margins and top-tier hardware. Not anymore. Steve himself said that they had left the camera off an iPod in order to hit a price point, just a year or so ago.

So back in the good old days, Apple didn't compete based on price. But now, they are no longer a high-end computer company, but instead, are a popular-priced CE company.

And competing on price is something they are doing, and IMO, will pursue to generate greater profits.
post #302 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

The Apple phone business is like number 7 worldwide. In the US, isn't it number 3?

The smartphone world...by profit share.


C.
post #303 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Look at those prices though for 7 inches...



:

It is possible that Apple will be the low price leader among the tablets.

But I think that plenty of people will pay a little extra for a product that meets their needs. Things on the couch, like watching videos and TV, or reading columns of text, or watching live videos of their kid at the day care center. Portability needs, like a doctor making rounds. Or a guy who rides the train to work every morning and wants to bring the tablet to read his newspaper.

Sure - low price is important, and Apple is now vertically integrated and is willing to trim its margins. But there will always be a market for superior products, even at a higher price.
post #304 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

There are many great apps... I'm not a heavy user, but there's good functionality (up to you as to what's "killer") as follows:

Videos - built in app, OplayerHD, CineXPlayer for xvids and stuff
Books - iBooks
PDF - iBooks
MSOffice - DocumentsToGo
Web - Safari, AtomicWeb
Games - Cut The Rope
Stargazing - SkySafari
Magazines - Zinio

I could go on, or I could just send you a screenshot of my home screens

Point is, all the above work nice at the current iPad size. Smaller, may not be as effective.

Yes. I understand your point.

But that is not the point I was responding to. May not be as effective is your point, for some nice apps.

The point I was responding to was different: That there are some killer apps for the iPad, and that these apps will not works at all well at 7 inches.

I am unaware of a single killer app. Accordingly, I am unaware which apps are being held up as proof that a 7 inch tablet is a mistake.

With every app you mention, a 12 inch tablet would be even better, and a 7 inch tablet would be less good. I don't disagree with your point. I was asking about a differerent point.
post #305 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The smartphone world...by profit share.


C.

Of course. But that ain't the question.

The question is what phone does the average consumer prefer to buy?

Not which company has lots of profit.
post #306 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Of course. But that ain't the question.

The question is what phone does the average consumer prefer to buy?

Not which company has lots of profit.

The profit-level is the clearest possible indicator of which company is creating the greatest added value in the eyes of consumers.

Nokia is selling more *units*, but consumers are not prepared to pay a premium on those units. Because they don't think the value is there. This is why Nokia is perceived as failing.

C.
post #307 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Accordingly, I am unaware which apps are being held up as proof that a 7 inch tablet is a mistake.

Any app which shows a full page business document can not function properly on a 7" screen. This is what is known as a deal breaker.

C.
post #308 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

That is the main reason I was so disappointed with the iPad. When I saw that it used a cellphone UI, I kind of wrote it off.

Well, the Galaxy Tab is the best 7" implementation i've seen (on video).

It uses Android Froyo.

Google says that Android Froyo is not suitable for tablets,

Samsung has sidestepped this [mostly] by providing their own version of typical "system apps" -- Mail, Contacts, Notes, Calendar, etc. (Apparently they use the standard Android browser).

In demos of the Tab "system apps" they appear to have rewritten the UI and Presentation to take advantage of the larger [than a smart phone] 7" screen.

The mail app, in particular looks very similar to the mail app on the iPad.

The Calendar app is similar to the iPad, but has some unique features,

The keys in the landscape virtual keyboard have been squished vertically to allow the top half of the screen to be used for display -- the reduced key size and spacing should make it more difficult to use than the nearly full-size virtual kb on the iPad.

It is interesting that these UI changes are unique to the Samsung 7" Galaxy Tab.

They will not scale down to a smaller Galaxy phone.

Had, they taken the iPads 10" UI and scaled it down to the 7" form factor, likely, it would not have worked on the device.


Much of this illustrates what Steve Jobs said -- with our limited current touch tablets, the UI is specific to the device's screen size, and does not scale to smaller sizes (without sandpaper

It will be interesting to see how well other apps, especially 3rd-party apps written for the smaller phones, scale to the 7" size... I suspect it will not be very satisfying.

When it arrives at the friendly, local VZ store -- I'll mosey on down and have a touchy-feely experience with the device.

As I said -- its the best 7" tablet I've seen (almost).

.
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post #309 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

When one chooses a new phone, one compares phones. And following such comparison, the vast majority of people reject the iPhone and buy something else.

Facts is facts.

And following such comparison, the vast majority of people reject every other single phone on the market and buy something else.

Some Facts is Pointless.
post #310 of 345
BACK TO MAC ANNOUNCEMENT IN 5 MINUTES!

Everyone. Let's try this again.

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post #311 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

To paraphrase Anssi Vanjoki ..
It's a bitterly cold day in Motorolaland and Motorola are basking in the warm afterglow of some really nice warm and steamy pants. But there could be some biting cold ahead when that cold wetness hits them.

I am convinced its going to be very hard for Android handset makers to maintain a profit level above any other Android handset maker. Like Windows hardware makers, they have no substantial way of distinguishing their products from any other manufacturers sharing the same software.

This is my theory: Agressive competition between Android handset makers will result in very low revenues for all of them.

I could be wrong. But a couple of years should prove it one way or another.

C.

So should Moto, HTC, Samsung, etc stop making phones because they can't make the same amount of money? I don't know about you but I'd rather be barely alive than totally dead. No they wont make a lot of money but they'll make enough to make it worthwhile to continue putting out devices. The beauty of Android is I could leave VZW for Sprint, T-Mobile, ATT, etc buy a phone running Android and all my apps come with me.
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post #312 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corax View Post

Yes, IF the powerusage of the screen is 20% with the 9,7" iPad, 80% being other components, than a 7" would use around 90% (10% less) but have HALF the space for batteries.

Well if the power consumption stats from my android phone are to be believed, the the power usage of the ipad screen would be in the region of 60-80%.
Reason is the power consumption of the phone's screen is usually around 30-40% on normal usage. Normal usage for means the screen is off most of the time and is only activated to or answer messages, receive or make calls or change tracks
Now when i put the phone under heavy usage,browsing the web, playing games, you know those activities which require the screen to be on, the power consumption usually jumps to to 70-80%.
Now normal usage of the ipad requires the screen to be on all the time so i i think the screen might be the biggest culprit for power consumption.
post #313 of 345
so Verizon will sell the Samsung Galaxy tab with built in 3G for $600 without contract, compared to a wifi iPad plus MiFi for $30 more, $630. or a 3G iPad from AT&T for the same price.

that works out to $29 per square inch of screen area for the Galaxy vs. $14 per square inch for the iPad. or a Galaxy with only 46% of the total screen area of the iPad for 95% of its price.

what a deal, eh? how many suckers going to go for this? when they are both on display side by side in the Verizon store?

yeah, the Galaxy has cameras. so if you want FaceTime - many do - you gotta wait several months for iPad 2. i know, it's tough.
post #314 of 345
All I can tell you is there was at least one disappointed female over here when I told her that Steve said no 7" iPad - especially after I suggested that there may be a possibility. I should know better than to tell a woman about an Apple rumor. On learning there was no forthcoming 7" iPad she said "Doesn't he know we want one that fits in our purse?."

When I think about it, her fingers are about a quarter the size of mine so she wouldn't need any sand paper.

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post #315 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by appl View Post

Of course. But that ain't the question.

The question is what phone does the average consumer prefer to buy?

Not which company has lots of profit.

It's not about market share, iGenius, however enough people like it to give Apple the overwhelming majority of profits in the sector, more than the 3 next most profitable combined.
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post #316 of 345
steve jobs is smart enough to know almost all, if not all tablet users own a smartphone.
a 7" tablet wouldn't differentiate much from a 4" smartphone.
who would want to carry around a 7" device making calls and sending text anyway?
seems to me Balsillie and other 7" tablet manufacturer missed this.
post #317 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

The beauty of Android is I could leave VZW for Sprint, T-Mobile, ATT, etc… buy a phone running Android and all my apps come with me.

That's precisely my point. Consumers can hop from maker to maker.
When you are buying your next phone, you can pick any Android handset because you perceive them all as pretty much the same thing. The brands are interchangeable. Just like Windows machine manufacturers.

This isn't bad for consumers.

But a really really bad thing for handset makers who want to be profitable.

I am not suggesting that Samsung et al should stop making handsets. I am just proposing the idea that outsourcing software development to another company, may result in reduced profitability in the long term.

C.
post #318 of 345
''Adobe Flash support actually matters to customers who want a real web experience,"

As in waiting, loading and crashing?
This flash website is gonna be cool!!!! After 10 seconds...
post #319 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

It's not about market share, iGenius, however enough people like it to give Apple the overwhelming majority of profits in the sector, more than the 3 next most profitable combined.

that's nonsense. Without marketshare, there aren't any profits.

Dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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post #320 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by fila97 View Post

steve jobs is smart enough to know almost all, if not all tablet users own a smartphone.
a 7" tablet wouldn't differentiate much from a 4" smartphone.
who would want to carry around a 7" device making calls and sending text anyway?
seems to me Balsillie and other 7" tablet manufacturer missed this.

It's probable they have the statistics to show this, given that the only tablet that has sold in any significant quantity is their own.
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