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Why Aren't We Doing This?

post #1 of 103
Thread Starter 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39754325...d_news-europe/

Quote:
LONDON Britain will cut half a million jobs, sharply reduce welfare payments and raise the retirement age as part of an unprecedented cost-cutting drive that will test the strength of both the economy and the ruling coalition.

Is it that we don't see ourselves as "there" yet? Frankly, I don't think so. I think it's that our politicians CANNOT make cuts. They literally cannot. I'm not optimistic that the GOP will impose the kind of massive spending cuts needed to get us out of this hole. Our leaders are too concerned with their political power. The beast has gotten so big, it now dictates what and when (and who) it eats.

Rather than passing trillion dollar spending sprees and bail outs, we should be going the other direction. Cut the federal budget by 25% right off the top. Reduce taxes to get the economy going. Something has to be done.

Your thoughts...
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post #2 of 103
I agree - I do not believe the GOP will reduce spending or make cuts in any significant way. While there are a few genuinely conservative GOP leaders who truly want to return the size and power of government to its Constitutional bounds (Ron Paul comes to mind), there is still a powerful neo-conservative influence in the party which wants to grow government just as much as the Democrats do, albeit in different areas.

We need to cut spending by 40% at the very least. But that will be extremely difficult to do, since so many Americans are now dependent on government for so many things. Take a look at France right now. If we start making the cuts that really need to be done to set things right, we could have mass civil unrest just like them - especially in the larger cities with large populations on some form of welfare or entitlement program.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #3 of 103
Germany led the way in these sort of cuts, the UK is just following suit because they have seen they caused Germany's recent record growth.

Quote:
The German economy grew by 2.2% in the three months to the end of June, its fastest quarterly growth in more than 20 years, official figures show.

"Such quarter-on-quarter growth has never been recorded before in reunified Germany," the national statistics office, Destatis, said.

It seems a no-brainer -if you leave partisan issues out of it (which you'll not I'm doing!); the cuts and pain now - growth later.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Germany led the way in these sort of cuts, the UK is just following suit because they have seen they caused Germany's recent record growth.



It seems a no-brainer -if you leave partisan issues out of it (which you'll not I'm doing!); the cuts and pain now - growth later.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like a no-brainer for many. Yes this approach does and will work. I only hope someone in the US has the political will to do it here...before they are forced to, at which point it might be too late. In deference to those who are far too dependent on government I would not mind seeing a gradual draw down. But in some cases more drastic moves are necessary.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #5 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Germany led the way in these sort of cuts, the UK is just following suit because they have seen they caused Germany's recent record growth.



It seems a no-brainer -if you leave partisan issues out of it (which you'll not I'm doing!); the cuts and pain now - growth later.

What do UK and Germany have in common?
Single payer health care.
Small defense budgets.
Lots of unions
No imperial foreign policies.
Have not started wars in this century.
Social democracy.
Current welfare payments are at least triple then in the US.

and a lot more conservatives hate.

In order for this to work in the US we would first need to address some of these issues.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #6 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

No imperial foreign policies.

Not anymore, true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Have not started wars in this century.

It's still early.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #7 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

What do UK and Germany have in common?
Single payer health care.
Small defense budgets.
Lots of unions
No imperial foreign policies.
Have not started wars in this century.
Social democracy.
Current welfare payments are at least triple then in the US.

and a lot more conservatives hate.

In order for this to work in the US we would first need to address some of these issues.

Eh? UK didn't go hand in hand with the US? Also I might add that the US was struck first on 9-11 and Iraq invaded Kuwait before the US acted.
post #8 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Eh? UK didn't go hand in hand with the US? Also I might add that the US was struck first on 9-11 and Iraq invaded Kuwait before the US acted.

So you equate Iraq with 911.

Why am I not surprised?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #9 of 103
Obama equates Afghanistan with 9/11...

Even though the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia...

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #10 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Obama equates Afghanistan with 9/11...

Even though the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia...

I'm not talking about Obama or Afghanistan...I'm talking about your implication that Iraq and 911 were connected.

That's one of the lamest dodges I've ever seen on here btw...and that is really setting the bar low.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #11 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I'm not talking about Obama or Afghanistan...I'm talking about your implication that Iraq and 911 were connected.

That's one of the lamest dodges I've ever seen on here btw...and that is really setting the bar low.

My implication?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #12 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

My implication?

Floorjack: Have not started wars in this century.

You: Also I might add that the US was struck first on 9-11

Unless you are randomly hitting the keyboard and have miraculously made some sort of sense in the manner of the fabled infinite amount of monkeys on typewriters writing Shakespeare, I take your comment to be a rebuttal of Floorjack's.

If so then it follows that you feel you are responding in some way to what you quoted.

And indeed, you are implying that the US had justification for an invasion (the topic of discussion) because they were 'struck first' (your example).

Therefore, given that your reply did not cite something random such as the number of black sheep in New Zealand, one might reasonably assume that you are implying the US was justified in military action because it was 'attacked first'.

In fact this is more than an implication - it is a statement.

So...back on track: why do you believe Iraq and 911 were connected? Do you even have a reason? Do you even feel you need one?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #13 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Floorjack: Have not started wars in this century.

You: Also I might add that the US was struck first on 9-11

Unless you are randomly hitting the keyboard and have miraculously made some sort of sense in the manner of the fabled infinite amount of monkeys on typewriters writing Shakespeare, I take your comment to be a rebuttal of Floorjack's.

If so then it follows that you feel you are responding in some way to what you quoted.

And indeed, you are implying that the US had justification for an invasion (the topic of discussion) because they were 'struck first' (your example).

Therefore, given that your reply did not cite something random such as the number of black sheep in New Zealand, one might reasonably assume that you are implying the US was justified in military action because it was 'attacked first'.

In fact this is more than an implication - it is a statement.

So...back on track: why do you believe Iraq and 911 were connected? Do you even have a reason? Do you even feel you need one?

I am not FloorJack. He made that statment.

What I stated was a fact. You jumped to your own conclusions as to my "implications".

As for FloorJack's implications, you'll need to get clarification from him on that. Not that you want clarification.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #14 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I am not FloorJack. He made that statment.

What I stated was a fact. You jumped to your own conclusions as to my "implications".

As for FloorJack's implications, you'll need to get clarification from him on that. Not that you want clarification.

Oh right... you're right. My fault.

But anyway...it was the sort of thing you WOULD Say.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #15 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

What do UK and Germany have in common?
Single payer health care.

Which is a disaster, particularly in the UK.

Quote:
Small defense budgets.

Everyone's is small in comparison to ours. The UK still spends quite a bit, though.

Quote:
Lots of unions

How is that working out for them? Not so good, I think.

Quote:
No imperial foreign policies.

Great Britain? Germany is still not allowed to.

Quote:
Have not started wars in this century.

Please, tell me a war that the US "started." Can't wait.

Quote:
Social democracy.
Current welfare payments are at least triple then in the US.

Prove that. And then show how it's working out for everyone.

Quote:

and a lot more conservatives hate.

In order for this to work in the US we would first need to address some of these issues.

So, to cut spending we need to spend more? We need more socialism to ensure less spending? Seriously? Sorry, wormhole, but the problem with our budget is not the military. Granted, it can't continue to grow and could possibly be reigned in, but it's not the problem. We spend too much money on garbage like trillion dollar stimulus/porkulus and bailouts and takeovers. We spend tons more on every manner of government employee, from the IRS to the interior departments. The government employees to many people...period. The government has its hands in EVERYTHING. Literally, everything.

We simply cannot continue to spend like this. $400 billion deficits were one thing. They were regrettable, but they weren't country-wrecking. But trillion and a half dollar deficits? National debt at 95% of GDP? Not sustainable. Unless we do something, we're going to turn into Greece.
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #16 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Oh right... you're right. My fault.

But anyway...it was the sort of thing you WOULD Say.....



Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #17 of 103

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #18 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Obama equates Afghanistan with 9/11...

Even though the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia...

But they lived and were trained in Afghanistan, and they had been there since they fought the Russians in the 1980s... I think that tying 9/11 and Afghanistan is reasonable.
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post #19 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


AI needs a "like" button.
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #20 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

AI needs a "like" button.

SDW, to be honest, you know as well as I do that if Obama did wield a massive axe then it would be "Obama is punishing industry", "Obama is slashing the middle classes", "Obama is a Communist...".

If he could do those kind of cuts he would... but the truth is he'll be crucified whatever he does so it's just damage limitation.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #21 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

If he could do those kind of cuts he would... but the truth is he'll be crucified whatever he does so it's just damage limitation.

And that's the problem with ALL politicians today.
They are more concerned with image and re-election than in DOING WHAT'S RIGHT. ("right" meaning "correct", as opposed to opposite of "left")
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #22 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

And that's the problem with ALL politicians today.
They are more concerned with image and re-election than in DOING WHAT'S RIGHT. ("right" meaning "correct", as opposed to opposite of "left")

Agreed.....but the people have to take a lot of the blame. The politicians are just a mirror of them...that's why they get elected.

Soon, if large sections of the populace become more racist and xenophobic then politicians will also.

The only exception would be if there were real leaders who took the public somewhere rather than followed them somewhere.....but that's just a pipe-dream now.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #23 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

agreed.....but the people have to take a lot of the blame. The politicians are just a mirror of them...that's why they get elected.

Bingo!

Of course there is something to be said for politicians "playing" the voters. But then the voters, in their own ignorance and illogic, are allowing themselves to be played. Frankly, ultimately, I blame the education system. This is the root cause.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #24 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39754325...d_news-europe/



Is it that we don't see ourselves as "there" yet? Frankly, I don't think so. I think it's that our politicians CANNOT make cuts. They literally cannot. I'm not optimistic that the GOP will impose the kind of massive spending cuts needed to get us out of this hole. Our leaders are too concerned with their political power. The beast has gotten so big, it now dictates what and when (and who) it eats.

Rather than passing trillion dollar spending sprees and bail outs, we should be going the other direction. Cut the federal budget by 25% right off the top. Reduce taxes to get the economy going. Something has to be done.

Your thoughts...

My thoughts to get the economy rolling again have what President Franklin Roosevelt had in his presidency start the WPA again and put people back to work once again. Infrastructure bridges, roads, railroads,buildings etc. This will work only if Obama tried.
post #25 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

My thoughts to get the economy rolling again have what President Franklin Roosevelt had in his presidency start the WPA again and put people back to work once again. Infrastructure bridges, roads, railroads,buildings etc. This will work only if Obama tried.

Actually it won't work, no matter how hard he tries.

Again, the education system and this undying faith in Keynesianism. \

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #26 of 103
Speaking of what we aren't doing, Laurence J. Kotlikoff and Richard Munroe have fantastic piece about what we are doing, how it isn't sustainable, and how via generational accounting, it amounts to child abuse.

Quote:
The grandkids face a bigger hit. Their living standard is 74 -- a 26 percent tax. So, compared with the current tax system, the grandkids have to pay 9 cents more per dollar earned to Uncle Sam.

If things continue as we adults have planned, our nation’s debt, measured as a share of gross domestic product, will reach Greek levels just when the grandkids start heading to work. At that point, simply stabilizing the debt-to-GDP ratio will require raising taxes by 50 percent, thereby lowering the grandkids’ living standard from 74 to 61.

This is a 39 percent bite, more than twice the lifetime tax rate that baby boomers have experienced. Bear in mind, this is an average, not a marginal tax rate; it’s like taxing every dollar the grandkids earn at 39 percent.

Double the lifetime rate.... and the people telling you that you don't have to submit to this, are of course heartless, racist, bastards.

Quote:
We’ve spent six decades passing the generational buck -- taking ever-larger sums from the young and giving them to the old, while promising the young their turn, when old, to expropriate their own offspring.

This massive Ponzi scheme is turning the American Dream into the American Nightmare. Stopping it means dramatically limiting the growth of federal spending. Here’s how:

-- Scrap our health-care system and provide all citizens with a voucher based on pre-existing conditions to buy a basic health plan, and limit coverages so that the total cost of the vouchers is fixed each year at 10 percent of GDP -- what Germany now spends on care.

-- Freeze Social Security in place, pay off its accrued benefits and replace the system with mandatory saving in personal accounts whose assets are jointly invested, by computer, not Wall Street, at minimal cost, in a fully diversified global index fund. The government would match contributions of the poor to make the system progressive and annuitize account balances at retirement. This Personal Security System would take much of Social Security’s unfunded liability off our kids’ backs.

-- Finally, stop spending more than the next 15 countries combined on defense. Declare victory in our unwinnable wars and bring the troops home.


And what about revenue? Scrap the current tax system and tax the elderly as well as the young through a levy on consumption. Also, provide a fixed monthly payment to each household to make the consumption tax progressive.

This all may sound radical. It’s not. Our progeny only have 100 cents out of every dollar they earn to surrender to Uncle Sam. And if their tax rates get too high, they will have a simple response: “Hasta la vista, baby.”

Who has the ability to bring about this sort of change? Probably no one because when you've been stealing for 60 years, you aren't going to stop. However we should be doing this immediately.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #27 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

What do UK and Germany have in common?
Single payer health care.
Small defense budgets.
Lots of unions
No imperial foreign policies.
Have not started wars in this century.
Social democracy.
Current welfare payments are at least triple then in the US.

and a lot more conservatives hate.

In order for this to work in the US we would first need to address some of these issues.

Good points all of them and as we all know the GOP would never go for cutting the military at all.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #28 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

So you equate Iraq with 911.

Why am I not surprised?

He's so full of truth isn't he?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #29 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39754325...d_news-europe/



Is it that we don't see ourselves as "there" yet? Frankly, I don't think so. I think it's that our politicians CANNOT make cuts. They literally cannot. I'm not optimistic that the GOP will impose the kind of massive spending cuts needed to get us out of this hole. Our leaders are too concerned with their political power. The beast has gotten so big, it now dictates what and when (and who) it eats.

Rather than passing trillion dollar spending sprees and bail outs, we should be going the other direction. Cut the federal budget by 25% right off the top. Reduce taxes to get the economy going. Something has to be done.

Your thoughts...

They've also said they arre " Managing decline ". Is that really what you want for us?

And if this is really what you want why weren't we doing this during the Bush years when this was all brewing?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #30 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Which is a disaster, particularly in the UK

This is bullshit. It is not 'a disaster'. You really, truly don't know what you're talking about. The NHS is something to be proud of. British people are proud of it.

It should be a source of shame for you that it's taken you so long, as the world's wealthiest nation, to institute even the weak health care reform you've just passed.

Right wing America collectively pissed it's hysterical pants at the institution of something that amounted to administrative reform. You're fucked as a nation because half of you can't even bring yourself to have a conversation without smelling salts on hand. Your president's a bit of a wet moderate but the national discourse is so screwed that you can't even discuss a speech to schoolkids without hysteria, so there's no way you're going to be able to consider the changes that matter.

And the British NHS isn't a disaster. I'm sure you have some out there examples of specific failures or something but you can shove them up your arse, because we love it.
post #31 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is bullshit. It is not 'a disaster'. You really, truly don't know what you're talking about. The NHS is something to be proud of. British people are proud of it.

It should be a source of shame for you that it's taken you so long, as the world's wealthiest nation, to institute even the weak health care reform you've just passed.

Right wing America collectively pissed it's hysterical pants at the institution of something that amounted to administrative reform. You're fucked as a nation because half of you can't even bring yourself to have a conversation without smelling salts on hand. Your president's a bit of a wet moderate but the national discourse is so screwed that you can't even discuss a speech to schoolkids without hysteria, so there's no way you're going to be able to consider the changes that matter.

And the British NHS isn't a disaster. I'm sure you have some out there examples of specific failures or something but you can shove them up your arse, because we love it.

The NHS saved my father's life. He would be dead if he lived in the US.

SDW has probably never been to the UK.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #32 of 103
The NHS fixed my congenital heart condition in 1999 with a clever bit of open heart surgery, monitors me annually and saved the life of my sister with a kidney transplant two years ago. When a child with a nut allergy ingested some sesame seeds on our school trip this week, a paramedic arrived by motorbike within three minutes of the 999 call, followed by an ambulance five minutes later. The crew, and the staff at hospital, were great with her and her understandably concerned parents.
Oh, and my wife is a Consultant paediatrician specialising in neuro-disability, serving part of north London; she couldn't be more dedicated to her patients and the principles of the NHS.
Free at the point of use, financed by national tax. Because we're worth it.

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" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or...

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"Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking." XamaX

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post #33 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is bullshit. It is not 'a disaster'. You really, truly don't know what you're talking about. The NHS is something to be proud of. British people are proud of it.

It should be a source of shame for you that it's taken you so long, as the world's wealthiest nation, to institute even the weak health care reform you've just passed.

Right wing America collectively pissed it's hysterical pants at the institution of something that amounted to administrative reform. You're fucked as a nation because half of you can't even bring yourself to have a conversation without smelling salts on hand. Your president's a bit of a wet moderate but the national discourse is so screwed that you can't even discuss a speech to schoolkids without hysteria, so there's no way you're going to be able to consider the changes that matter.

And the British NHS isn't a disaster. I'm sure you have some out there examples of specific failures or something but you can shove them up your arse, because we love it.

Hyperbole aside, it isn't hard to find almost daily stories of how it fails people. You don't even have to look hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

The NHS saved my father's life. He would be dead if he lived in the US.

SDW has probably never been to the UK.

So please explain how any private medical enterprise would have completely failed your father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex London View Post

The NHS fixed my congenital heart condition in 1999 with a clever bit of open heart surgery, monitors me annually and saved the life of my sister with a kidney transplant two years ago. When a child with a nut allergy ingested some sesame seeds on our school trip this week, a paramedic arrived by motorbike within three minutes of the 999 call, followed by an ambulance five minutes later. The crew, and the staff at hospital, were great with her and her understandably concerned parents.
Oh, and my wife is a Consultant paediatrician specialising in neuro-disability, serving part of north London; she couldn't be more dedicated to her patients and the principles of the NHS.
Free at the point of use, financed by national tax. Because we're worth it.

Again, do the ambulances all disappear when the system is private? My own son was born with a heart condition and it was repaired with a clever bit of surgery that was done in a minimally invasive manner involving two little cuts on his leg. People don't stop caring just because the care is private.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #34 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Hyperbole aside, it isn't hard to find almost daily stories of how it fails people. You don't even have to look hard.

I'll tell you a secret...only people in the UK know this hideous fact about these NHS bastards, but (whisper) sometimes even patients die.

That wouldn't happen in a non-Commie private utopia....bastards....

Quote:
So please explain how any private medical enterprise would have completely failed your father.

The same reason that private medical enterprise fails everyone - he didn't have any.

If you are saying that EVERYONE should have healthcare then - hello - that is the NHS which you are railing about

If oth you are saying that healthcare should be available to people in certain categories (ie those who can afford it) then you have your answer.

And so do we about you.

Quote:
Again, do the ambulances all disappear when the system is private? My own son was born with a heart condition and it was repaired with a clever bit of surgery that was done in a minimally invasive manner involving two little cuts on his leg. People don't stop caring just because the care is private.

What you don't seem to grasp that it isn't about 'people caring' but whether the ability to experience 'people caring' should be linked to how much (if anything) you can afford.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #35 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

SDW, to be honest, you know as well as I do that if Obama did wield a massive axe then it would be "Obama is punishing industry", "Obama is slashing the middle classes", "Obama is a Communist...".

If he could do those kind of cuts he would... but the truth is he'll be crucified whatever he does so it's just damage limitation.

How would cutting government spending and laying off government works be "punishing industry?" Sure, some people would have a fit about laying off so many workers, but it's got to be done. Millions more would support the move. As for Obama, there is no way he would ever consider such a move. He believes in government creating prosperity. He believes in spreading the wealth. He's said so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

My thoughts to get the economy rolling again have what President Franklin Roosevelt had in his presidency start the WPA again and put people back to work once again. Infrastructure bridges, roads, railroads,buildings etc. This will work only if Obama tried.

FDR's programs are widely recognized to have no helped (at best) and may have prolonged the depression (at worst). Government cannot create prosperity. It cannot create jobs. It can simply help create conditions that allow enterprise and citizens to thrive. Last...don't you realize that the stimulus was based (supposedly) on Keynesian theory? The whole idea was to stimulate the economy with shovel-ready infrastructure projects. Well guess what....it failed. It provided (possibly) a very modest and temporary boost, which is now ending. Yeah...let's try that again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

They've also said they arre " Managing decline ". Is that really what you want for us?

That's the kind of cheap, strawman-like argument I'd expect from you. First, "managing decline" doesn't necessarily mean the decline of a nation over time, nor does it mean one embraces and accepts such decline as permanent. Secondly, how do these 500,000 government jobs create growth? You seem to be implying that these jobs benefit the economy, which they don't on the whole.

Quote:

And if this is really what you want why weren't we doing this during the Bush years when this was all brewing?

Because the fiscal situation is totally different. The deficit is 4x as high, and the national debt is accumulating at around 4x the speed. Spending is off the charts compared to the Bush years, even if one puts aside TARP which added to the FY 2009 deficit. Meanwhile, the government is growing by leaps and bounds...far faster than it did during Bush (where it grew too much). And let's not forget, I've always called for lower spending. When deficits were in the 200-400 billion range, I said that I didn't like them, but that the deficits were manageable. I still think they WERE manageable. These deficits are not.

As for things "brewing" during the Bush years, I agree with that. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to show which Bush Administration policies led to the recession. "Tax cuts for the rich" isn't the reason, nor are the wars. "Deregulation" is not the reason, either. "Being asleep at the switch" (as you've stated before) is nothing but meaningless rhetoric. The truth is that the roots of the crisis go back to the Carter admin (not a political shot there...if you prefer I can just write "go back 35 years).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is bullshit. It is not 'a disaster'. You really, truly don't know what you're talking about. The NHS is something to be proud of. British people are proud of it.

It should be a source of shame for you that it's taken you so long, as the world's wealthiest nation, to institute even the weak health care reform you've just passed.

Right wing America collectively pissed it's hysterical pants at the institution of something that amounted to administrative reform. You're fucked as a nation because half of you can't even bring yourself to have a conversation without smelling salts on hand. Your president's a bit of a wet moderate but the national discourse is so screwed that you can't even discuss a speech to schoolkids without hysteria, so there's no way you're going to be able to consider the changes that matter.

And the British NHS isn't a disaster. I'm sure you have some out there examples of specific failures or something but you can shove them up your arse, because we love it.

1. I'm not saying NHS does no good. I'm saying it's expensive, bloated, inefficient and results in many problems for citizens...even horror stories that as trump points out, are not had to find.

2. It's not, because many of us don't believe we're entitled to "government-funded" healthcare.

3. Excellent appraisal of America and Obamacare, indeed. It shows real, in-depth understanding of how the trillion dollar, 2,000 page, byzantine-in-complexity bill was rammed through Congress with no bipartisan support, using parliamentary tricks, over the objection of 60% of the nation. It shows a real attempt to understand that the consequences of said law are already being felt by business and consumers, such as health insurance plans going up nearly 50% in one year. </sarcasm>

4. I see that you speak for the British people. On behalf of the American people, I extend my greetings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex London View Post

The NHS fixed my congenital heart condition in 1999 with a clever bit of open heart surgery, monitors me annually and saved the life of my sister with a kidney transplant two years ago. When a child with a nut allergy ingested some sesame seeds on our school trip this week, a paramedic arrived by motorbike within three minutes of the 999 call, followed by an ambulance five minutes later. The crew, and the staff at hospital, were great with her and her understandably concerned parents.
Oh, and my wife is a Consultant paediatrician specialising in neuro-disability, serving part of north London; she couldn't be more dedicated to her patients and the principles of the NHS.
Free at the point of use, financed by national tax. Because we're worth it.

Glad they helped you, but there many examples of failure. That's the point.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #36 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I'll tell you a secret...only people in the UK know this hideous fact about these NHS bastards, but (whisper) sometimes even patients die.

That wouldn't happen in a non-Commie private utopia....bastards....

The same reason that private medical enterprise fails everyone - he didn't have any.

Are you claiming that just because someone in the United States doesn't have health insurance, that they are denied health care?

Quote:
If you are saying that EVERYONE should have healthcare then - hello - that is the NHS which you are railing about

If oth you are saying that healthcare should be available to people in certain categories (ie those who can afford it) then you have your answer.

And so do we about you.

What you don't seem to grasp that it isn't about 'people caring' but whether the ability to experience 'people caring' should be linked to how much (if anything) you can afford.

Everyone in the United States does receive health care. What they do not have, and what the debate is about is health insurance. If your father had a heart attack or some other medical emergency, an ambulance would be called, he would be taken in it and would be treated through an emergency room. Afterwards he would be billed and if he did not have the means he could apply for certain state programs. In a worst case scenario, he would have the bills damage his credit and could discharge the debts through bankruptcy.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #37 of 103
Look. We have our system, and we think it's pretty great, although it's imperfect.

You have your system and everyone thinks it's pretty shit, and it remains to be seen how much it'll improve.

So let's just say we keep our system which we really like and we ignore you when you criticise it. How's that?
post #38 of 103
Define "everyone".

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #39 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Look. We have our system, and we think it's pretty great, although it's imperfect.

You have your system and everyone thinks it's pretty shit, and it remains to be seen how much it'll improve.

So let's just say we keep our system which we really like and we ignore you when you criticise it. How's that?

But you won't keep your system and we won't keep our system because both of the governments running them are out of other people's money. Your government is laying off half a million people and our government ought to be doing the same.

The race in this case isn't to utopia but to the bottom with world government playing a game of currency chicken trying to see who blinks first in the devaluation game. Devaluation of currency, essentually printing up free money and hoping no one calls you on it, is the only game these terrible governments and the politicians using said money to buy votes, have left.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #40 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

But you won't keep your system and we won't keep our system because both of the governments running them are out of other people's money. Your government is laying off half a million people and our government ought to be doing the same.

The race in this case isn't to utopia but to the bottom with world government playing a game of currency chicken trying to see who blinks first in the devaluation game. Devaluation of currency, essentually printing up free money and hoping no one calls you on it, is the only game these terrible governments and the politicians using said money to buy votes, have left.

Probably a mistake to underestimate the British people's attachment to the principle of the NHS. Particularly if you don't understand the concept or know anything about the UK.

There are sheep there for sure just like the US but they are a different breed and can get nasty if pushed too far.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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