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Why Aren't We Doing This? - Page 3

post #81 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

You do have a point on the costs, but our wonderful privatized health care system is just so great...oh, wait.



I know some people who work 39 hour a week 'part time' jobs at Wal-Mart who aren't eligible for corporate health program, can't afford an individual one and have to resort to using the emergency room for basic health care. (Wal-Mart is just an example) There would be funding issues to overcome with a full British style system, but our current system does not provide 'coverage for everyone'. I'm not sure Obama's plan is the right one, but some sort of public/private option for those who really need it would be a good idea in my opinion.

And you're wrong. There is no evidence to suggest that we'd get better lifespan and mortality rates by instituting universal coverage. Also, realize that most people in this country are covered already. There are very few full-time workers that do not have health care coverage. The number one always hears is "45 million," but this is bogus. Many of those are illegal immigrants, not primary earners, independently wealthy or people that choose not to buy health insurance. The "uninsurable" and those that cannot afford coverage are few and far between. 45 million? Try less than 10 million. We could simply expand medicare to fix that problem. It cost ten percent of the Obamacare bill. Ten percent!

Quote:

BTW I work (OK will be working, I'm a Senior) in health care, just the little I've seen from the inside during clinical rotations has shown me how customer costs are outrageous in comparison to the actual costs of services provided. Plus cases like this one don't do much to engage trust in the current HMO system.

To be fair the US is on top in the research and development areas of healthcare, by force of numbers if nothing else.

And sorry to head about your son's PAD, glad it got fixed.

Yes, and it's going to get even worse under Obamacare. In some ways it's the worst of all worlds. It mandates we purchase coverage from these for-profit entities. The companies are also forced to cover anyone. Guess what that will do to costs? So insurers have already stated that their rates are going to increase by nearly 40% next year as Obamacare kicks in.
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post #82 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Do you think those cost problems could happen if everyone had medical savings accounts and had to actually understand and scrutinize a bill?

Probably so, but that would be asking allot from the average person, IMHO.
(Only being partly snarky here)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Yes, and it's going to get even worse under Obamacare. In some ways it's the worst of all worlds. It mandates we purchase coverage from these for-profit entities. The companies are also forced to cover anyone. Guess what that will do to costs? So insurers have already stated that their rates are going to increase by nearly 40% next year as Obamacare kicks in.

I said I didn't think Obamacare was the solution; your idea for medicare sounds like what I was talking about.

I just get upset when people suggest our current system is all sunshine and lolipops, it's actually middle of the road when compared worldwide. For example, Costa Rica is generally rated as the best life expectancy and best overall health care, and they have a dual public/private system. Large public systems like the NHS do have their own problems. No system is perfect, which is the first point I was trying to make.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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post #83 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

Probably so, but that would be asking allot from the average person, IMHO.
(Only being partly snarky here)



I said I didn't think Obamacare was the solution; your idea for medicare sounds like what I was talking about.

I just get upset when people suggest our current system is all sunshine and lolipops, it's actually middle of the road when compared worldwide. For example, Costa Rica is generally rated as the best life expectancy and best overall health care, and they have a dual public/private system. Large public systems like the NHS do have their own problems. No system is perfect, which is the first point I was trying to make.

Gotcha. Really, it seems reasonable to me that we engage in efforts to cover more people. Here's what I think we should do:

1. Repeal Obamacare entirely.

2. Pass a new law with the following components:

A. Make it harder for insurers to turn down people on pre-existing conditions. They should be able to turn down people currently in expensive treatment programs and what not. They still have a business to run, after all.

B. Make it illegal to drop groups/tiers/individuals or raise premiums exponentially on those that start costing the insurer lots of money. You have a certain policy limit and you should be able to use it if you need it.

C. Get employers out of the healthcare business. Offer a $15,000 tax deduction for the purposes of buying insurance. All insurance can still be purchased pre-tax.

D. Those who still cannot afford or are unable to get insurance should be part of a public option of sorts. Make it part of Medicare/Medicaid. The government can use its enormous purchasing power to help secure insurance for these folks.


What would this cost? Probably less than $200 billion over 10 years, even if we covered every person who truly cannot get or afford insurance.
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post #84 of 103
Why arent you doing this?

Heres why.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...lobalrecession

Because in this situation, austerity measures have broken Ireland. Austerity measures didnt work. They shrank the states ability to correct the fuck up that the insane banks inflicted on us, and now theyve had a 97% increase in unemployent and no-one has any money.

It did not WORK.

Ireland was in the UKs situation, but exactly, only months earlier. They went to town on the austerity measures that the OP wants to see in America.

And it didnt work, for reasons you can read about in the link. The UK has done exactly the same. Austerity measures do not work.

How do we know? Because Ireland is bankrupt, Spain and Portugal are bricking it hoping that they take a bailout.

The Conservatives have done EXACTLY what the Irish did. Now you can see why youre lucky you havent done what weve done. Look at Ireland. If the UKs next, thank your lucky stars you showed some balls.
post #85 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

We all truly appreciate your extremely simplistic and superficial analysis of the situation in Ireland. You have a great future working for the governments of the United States or perhaps as a member of the mainstream media. Your analytical skills perfectly qualify you.

Thank you for your response.

I cant help but notice that you spend the entire post attacking me rather than actually making a contribution worth a damn thing and it took you precisely three minutes, time you probably could have spent actually clicking on the fucking link and considering its arguments.

Click on the link and then enagage like an adult.
post #86 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Thank you for your response.

I cant help but notice that you spend the entire post attacking me rather than actually making a contribution worth a damn thing and it took you precisely three minutes, time you probably could have spent actually clicking on the fucking link and considering its arguments.

Click on the link and then enagage like an adult.

I've read the arguments before. Been there done that. Sorry that you're late to the game.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #87 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I've read the arguments before. Been there done that. Sorry that you're late to the game.

And this reply took three minutes too, in which time you read my post, read the article, and replied?

What do you actually come here for?
post #88 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Why arent you doing this?

Heres why.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...lobalrecession

Because in this situation, austerity measures have broken Ireland. Austerity measures didnt work. They shrank the states ability to correct the fuck up that the insane banks inflicted on us, and now theyve had a 97% increase in unemployent and no-one has any money.

It did not WORK.

Ireland was in the UKs situation, but exactly, only months earlier. They went to town on the austerity measures that the OP wants to see in America.

And it didnt work, for reasons you can read about in the link. The UK has done exactly the same. Austerity measures do not work.

How do we know? Because Ireland is bankrupt, Spain and Portugal are bricking it hoping that they take a bailout.

The Conservatives have done EXACTLY what the Irish did. Now you can see why youre lucky you havent done what weve done. Look at Ireland. If the UKs next, thank your lucky stars you showed some balls.

Let me get this straight: Cutting spending CAUSED Ireland's economic problems? Would you care to explain how, exactly?
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post #89 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Let me get this straight: Cutting spending CAUSED Ireland's economic problems? Would you care to explain how, exactly?

I wrote that austerity measures

Quote:
shrank the state’s ability to correct the fuck up that the insane banks inflicted on us,

So no. As I actually wrote in my post I don't believe that austerity measures caused the collapse. As in America, the banks did, largely, with imprudent lending and by betting on their own economic failures.

The austerity measures, the cuts, were designed to FIX the mess. They were designed to AID RECOVERY from the economic crisis.

They didn't, did they. They pushed the country over the edge, into total Greece-style economic meltdown, by, as I said in my post, shrinking the state's ability to correct the fuck up that the banks inflicted on us and taking money out of an economy that demanded liquidity to survive.

The size of the government is irrelevant in this situation. In this specific situation it's arguably even a plus, looking at Europe's most stable economies, but that's another discussion I suppose.




SDW2001, now we've seen that austerity measures don't work, do you still want to copy the example of Ireland and the UK? I presume you have an explanation as to why the cuts didn't work?

Would you read the link and comment on it? She explains better than I do.
post #90 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

To see what bullshit you're posting.

Thank-you for your continued positive contribution to the forum.
post #91 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Thank-you for your continued positive contribution to the forum.

You're welcome. You'll let us know when you make one won't you?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #92 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You're welcome. You'll let us know when you make one won't you?

Listen, involuntary_serf.

The time youve spent attacking me might have been better spent actually clicking on the link and considering it.

Why dont you do that. Why dont you read my last post in response to SDW2001, who at least is interested in discussing ideas, and comment on that in a way that isnt a direct attack on me rather than the post?

We all understand now that you really, passionately and truly detest American people with left wing politics. That is very, very clear.

Now you should perhaps begin to discuss those ideas.
post #93 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

The time youve spent attacking me might have been better spent actually clicking on the link and considering it.

Why dont you do that.

As I already said, I've heard the arguments already. I've even responded to some of those in these very forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

We all understand now that you really, passionately and truly detest American people with left wing politics.

Well you "understand" something that isn't true. I don't detest such people. I may be very frustrated with their ideas, policies and penchant to exert control over others, but I do not detest them.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #94 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

As I already said, I've heard the arguments already. I've even responded to some of those in these very forums.

The austerity measures in Ireland have failed. Its been headline news for 48 hours. Ireland is about to be forced to take a bailout, it looks like.

You havent discussed this.

What Im asking is: do you still want to follow the example of Ireland and the UK NOW WE CAN SEE THAT THE AUSTERITY MEASURES HAVE FAILED?

Do you have any explanation for why these austerity measures have failed?
[/QUOTE]
post #95 of 103
I addressed Ireland's austerity measures here.

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post #96 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I addressed Ireland's austerity measures here.

So you did. My bad.
post #97 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I wrote that austerity measures



So no. As I actually wrote in my post I don't believe that austerity measures caused the collapse. As in America, the banks did, largely, with imprudent lending and by betting on their own economic failures.

The austerity measures, the cuts, were designed to FIX the mess. They were designed to AID RECOVERY from the economic crisis.

They didn't, did they. They pushed the country over the edge, into total Greece-style economic meltdown, by, as I said in my post, shrinking the state's ability to correct the fuck up that the banks inflicted on us and taking money out of an economy that demanded liquidity to survive.

The size of the government is irrelevant in this situation. In this specific situation it's arguably even a plus, looking at Europe's most stable economies, but that's another discussion I suppose.




SDW2001, now we've seen that austerity measures don't work, do you still want to copy the example of Ireland and the UK? I presume you have an explanation as to why the cuts didn't work?

Would you read the link and comment on it? She explains better than I do.

You can't demonstrate that the austerity measures "pushed the country over the edge." And let's call "austerity measures" what they are...spending cuts. Saying that spending cuts have pushed the country over the edge or contributed in any way to the economic crises in Greece or Ireland is just silly. How is that even possible? The crises are ones caused by debt. What is the solution...more debt?

Edit: I'm not saying their plan(s) were successful. But lack of success doesn't mean those measures helped cause the problem in any way. You also asked if I wanted to copy those plans. The answer to that is no. Tax increases are not the answer. Balancing the budget and reducing the size of government is. I know some wish to make this out to be rocket science, but it's not. It's simple: We're spending far more money than we take in. We're spending it on a bloated, monstrous federal government whose appetite for funds is insatiable.
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post #98 of 103
Interesting read from Cato: Don’t Blame Ireland’s Mess on Low Corporate Tax Rates

Quote:
When the financial crisis hit a couple of years ago, tax revenues suddenly plummeted. Unfortunately, politicians continued to spend like drunken sailors. It’s only in the last year that they finally stepped on the brakes and began to rein in the burden of government spending. But that may be a case of too little, too late.

Sounds all too familiar...

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #99 of 103
Irish unveil tough four-year recovery plan
Quote:
The Irish government has unveiled a range of tough austerity measures designed to help solve the country's debt crisis.

Irish Republic's austerity plan: Key points at-a-glance
Quote:
The Irish government has unveiled the deficit reduction plan required for its EU and IMF bail-out, revealing deep cuts in spending and jobs.

無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #100 of 103
Top EU court backs Commission over staff pay rise

Quote:
The EU's top court has backed the European Commission's bid to boost pay for EU staff by 3.7%, instead of the 1.85% that the member states wanted.

The 27 governments - collectively called the Council - wanted to limit the pay rise to 1.85% because of tough economic conditions in Europe.

The European Court of Justice says the Council "exceeded its powers" when it decided on the 1.85% figure.

The court case, affecting about 45,000 EU staff, began in January.....

Quote:
"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"

- George Orwell, Animal Farm, Ch. 10
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #101 of 103
My question is, if the solution to the financial problems in the the UK and Ireland is drastic spending cuts and "austerity measures"...

If they had implemented such measures years ago (as fiscal conservatives have been asking for all along), could they have averted or at least lessened the negative effects of the current economic crisis?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #102 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

My question is, if the solution to the financial problems in the the UK and Ireland is drastic spending cuts and "austerity measures"...

If they had implemented such measures years ago (as fiscal conservatives have been asking for all along), could they have averted or at least lessened the negative effects of the current economic crisis?

Yes. But no one wants to hear that. See according to the "government must spend to keep the economy moving" theory...government must spend in bad times, but also in good times.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #103 of 103
oooops
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